Author Topic: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?  (Read 53880 times)

Offline Artiste

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Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« on: April 02, 2008, 10:04:51 pm »
Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2008, 10:12:37 pm »
Maybe?

Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2008, 06:11:56 am »
Very difficult to say, because as far as we know, she knows nothing of Ennis's "secret life" and it's not a conversation that ever comes up in BBM with her, but I'd hazard a guess at no.


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Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2008, 09:49:32 am »
She must know something... came to feel something about that??

Offline Fran

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2008, 10:41:29 am »
I think Cassie is totally clueless when it comes to Ennis.  She says it herself at the bus station:  "I don't get you, Ennis del Mar."  She doesn't know that Ennis loves Jack; she just knows that Ennis doesn't love her.

Clearly, Cassie was in love with Ennis and wanted to be his wife.  Ennis broke her heart when he stopped all contact with her.  She never got an explanation from him.  She had no idea why he suddenly stopped calling her and ignored her notes.  I think it was an awful way to break up with someone, especially since both Ennis and Cassie lived in the same small town and were bound to run into each other at some point.

But getting back to your original question, no, Cassie was not homophobic.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2008, 10:59:38 am »
I don't think we have any indication at all that Cassie was homophobic. 

Where her character is concerned, I don't think that the topic of homosexuality ever even comes up or crosses her mind.  The drama with Ennis from her point of view, I think has to do with the basic issue of rejection and heartbreak.  There's no reason to believe that she had any idea that Ennis was gay, so there doesn't seem to be a way to apply the concept of homophobia here.



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Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2008, 11:10:07 am »
Before I answer both of you (Elaine and atz),

may I remind you that it took how many months for Alma to figure out that Jack was Ennis's lover (her husband)??

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2008, 11:12:13 am »
Well, Alma is very different from Cassie in terms of perspective and knowledge of the situation.

I don't think Cassie ever knows that Ennis is gay and she probably doesn't even know that Jack exists.  It seems likely that Cassie never even heard Jack's name.


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Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 11:13:06 am »
How long did Cassie go out with Ennis?

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2008, 11:29:40 am »
She seems to have dated him for a very long time.  As we all know the timeline of BBM is very confusing.  But, it seems possible that she dated him for up to 4 years (if I'm remembering previous discussions about this correctly).  Based on related clues within the timeline, it also seems possible that Jack dated Randall for the same amount of time- 4-ish years.

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Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2008, 11:35:15 am »
Quelle surprise !!

2 surprises!!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2008, 12:19:08 pm »
Yes the long amount of time that Ennis seems to date Cassie (and the long duration of Jack's relationship with Randall) makes the conversation between Ennis and Jack during the evening of their final camping trip particularly odd.

Ennis seems to be mentioning Cassie here almost for the first time (referring to her as the "waitress who wants to go to nursing school or something") and Jack's little fib about the ranch foreman's wife here also seems to be the first time that a veiled reference to Randall comes up in Jack's conversation.

Given that the Childress charity dance was in the late '70s and this camping trip happens in 1983... that's a long time for Jack and Randall to have been involved potentially.  And, Ennis was already with Cassie by the time of that charity dance.

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Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2008, 12:33:54 pm »
Yes the long amount of time that Ennis seems to date Cassie (and the long duration of Jack's relationship with Randall) makes the conversation between Ennis and Jack during the evening of their final camping trip particularly odd.

Ennis seems to be mentioning Cassie here almost for the first time (referring to her as the "waitress who wants to go to nursing school or something") and Jack's little fib about the ranch foreman's wife here also seems to be the first time that a veiled reference to Randall comes up in Jack's conversation.

Given that the Childress charity dance was in the late '70s and this camping trip happens in 1983... that's a long time for Jack and Randall to have been involved potentially.  And, Ennis was already with Cassie by the time of that charity dance.

Wow! I'd never paid that much attention to that part of the timeline! That does make that conversation on their final camping trip very odd then. I guess given the condensed nature of the timeline in the film, it could have been that the charity dance was intended to be later, but if it was intended to be later, why didn't they just make it later? And the story isn't much help because the dance scene isn't in the story (just me thinking out loud here). Very strange indeed.


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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2008, 12:37:05 pm »
I would guess that Cassie probably is somewhat homophobic, like the majority of people in her time and place. But as far as the plot goes, I see that as a non-issue. She doesn't show any sign of wondering about Ennis' sexual orientation. Even if she does have suspicions, she doesn't act on them. Ennis breaks up with her, not the reverse; clearly she wants to get back together. So Cassie's attitudes about gay people really have no bearing on the story.



Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2008, 12:57:44 pm »
Wow! I'd never paid that much attention to that part of the timeline! That does make that conversation on their final camping trip very odd then. I guess given the condensed nature of the timeline in the film, it could have been that the charity dance was intended to be later, but if it was intended to be later, why didn't they just make it later? And the story isn't much help because the dance scene isn't in the story (just me thinking out loud here). Very strange indeed.

I'm at work... so I can't look the details of this up right now (or run and check my DVD)... but I think there's a banner in the dinner dance scene that specifically states the year (and I think it's 1978 or 79... or something).  Maybe I'm mis-remembering this, but I thought that this was the case... and was why the dinner dance is an important time-line marker (at least in the film).





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Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2008, 01:03:27 pm »
Elaine thanks!

Sorry if I am late replying!

You say:
  She had no idea why he suddenly stopped calling her and ignored her notes. 


.........

Elaine, that is just it.... she kept on trying, so must have figured something? Like  maybe Ennis is gay?

Just a question. No harm done!

Au revoir,
hugs! I  must rush as I am late in my work... creating paintings!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2008, 12:10:00 am »
Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?

no, she was a sweet lady whom Ennis disappointed, not any more complicated than that. I hope she had a good life with "whatever that tall cowboy's name was".

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2008, 12:23:47 am »
Brokeplex, nevertheless, how long did she go out with Ennis?

Or saw him?

Any proof... like others think?

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2008, 12:25:47 am »
Brokeplex, nevertheless, how long did she go out with Ennis?

Or saw him?

Any proof... like others think?

Hugs!

I think that it was several years, maybe 1977 to about 1983?

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2008, 01:48:17 am »
The Childress Dancehall Banner says 1978 and the scene where Ennis meets Cassie is directly the one before. The STS also names 1978 as the year Ennis meets Cassie, so they have dated for five years before the tell you what conversation. Same goes for Jack and Randall.

But five years are hard to believe, aren't they? This would make the conversation by the lakeside very odd and additionally, it would make Ennis's way to break up with Cassie somehow implausible. After five years of relationship (even if it wasn't the closest), one would rather think something has happened to your lover than contemplate the possibility he has dumped you if you don't hear anything from him. I think Cassie would have been worried about Ennis and not come to the conclusion he dumped her.
And since Cassie was a somewhat "pushy" type, I'm sure she would have sat on the steps of Ennis's trailer one night and would not have settled with some unanswered notes. I think she just would not have "gotten" the message and second, would have demanded an explanation even if she had an inkling about possibly being dumped.

But if they had been together much shorter, then it would make sense. Ennis's way to dump Cassie and his indifferent way of speaking of her make much more sense if they had known each other only for a relative short period of time.

The timeline is really such a tricky subject  ::).


On the OP: we have not one iota of information about her being homophobic (or not homophobic). Like indeedcrayons already said: it's a non-issue in the movie.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2008, 10:58:02 am »
Thanks Dan!  Will reply to others later too!!

Five years !!

Cassie is NOT dumb!! She must have figured out that Ennis is gay or bi ??

As to if she is homophobic or not, it remains to be seen... may I say!

The 5 years puzzles a lot!! Does it to you too??

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2008, 07:31:45 pm »
I don't see any reason for Cassie to figure out that Ennis is gay. Not because she is too dumb to figure it out. But, a man being gay just wasn't something that she would probably consider until the evidence was in front of her face. He wasn't seeing any other men except for Jack, and they had their fishing trips "cover story". The society at large assumes that men are straight until proven otherwise. Maybe thru the years, she thought about Ennis, and maybe she wondered later on after she married Carl.  ???

I liked Cassie, just like I liked Alma, and I felt for her dissapointment in Ennis, just like I felt for Alma's broken heart. When I see that scene in the bus stop, I wanted Cassie to grab that plate of pie and rub it in Ennis's face, of course that is consistent with my feelings in the Thanksgiving kitchen scene, I wanted Alma to break that plate over Ennis's head. Those women were way too nice to Ennis.  >:(

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2008, 07:36:45 pm »
Merci et, wow brokeplex!!

Tu me donnes des surprises!!

Yes, what marvelous surprises you provide.

However, Ennis was indeed nice to Cassie, right? That should have given a clue to Cassie that he was gay or bi ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2008, 07:38:41 pm »
Merci et, wow brokeplex!!

Tu me donnes des surprises!!

Yes, what marvelous surprises you provide.

However, Ennis was indeed nice to Cassie, right? That should have given a clue to Cassie that he was gay or bi ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

no, Ennis was not nice to Cassie, he was a jerk. He broke her heart, just as he broke Alma's heart.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2008, 07:44:49 pm »
May I not figure it that way.

Ennis was not the one who initiated the relationship.

Cassie did, right?

Au revoir,
hugs!   So Cassie must have figured it out that Ennis was gay or bi, at least sub... way! ??

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2008, 07:47:41 pm »
May I not figure it that way.

Ennis was not the one who initiated the relationship.

Cassie did, right?

Au revoir,
hugs!   So Cassie must have figured it out that Ennis was gay or bi, at least sub... way! ??

just because Cassie was aggressive that day in the bar, doesn't mean that Ennis was entitled to dump her out like a moldy sack of potatoes. sorry, I won't make excuses for Ennis. I understand his angst because of his feelings for Jack, but he still was responsible for his behavior towards Alma, Cassie, and Jack.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2008, 08:03:55 pm »
Hey brokeplex, did you change sex to-day? May I ask!! May I joke! Are you the first man pregnant who was on Oprah yesterday and now you are pretending to be brokeplex to-day?

Ennis did not dump Cassie... at least not right away!! He went out with her for many years, right?
Cassie must have kept on persisting going out with him, right?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2008, 08:06:00 pm »
oh come on, look at how upset Ennis made Cassie! she left him notes, she tried to get in touch with him thru the foreman of the ranch. Ennis dumped her. shame on him.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2008, 08:09:47 pm »
Merci brokeplex.  Pray that I did not upset you with my joke!

Ennis had no choice but not communicate with Cassie anymore, right? CASSIE KEPT ON PRESSURING ENNIS... FOR YEARS... like 4, 5, 6 ??
That is one way! Not to reply.

Isn't that THE way how to do: when one follows you?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2008, 08:13:41 pm »
Merci brokeplex.  Pray that I did not upset you with my joke!

Ennis had no choice but not communicate with Cassie anymore, right? CASSIE KEPT ON PRESSURING ENNIS... FOR YEARS... like 4, 5, 6 ??
That is one way! Not to reply.

Isn't that THE way how to do: when one follows you?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Ennis wasn't a blind innocent! He wanted sex from Cassie, and then he dumped her. I don't know why, but he did. maybe she was talking about marriage and Ennis backed away from that. I'm not sure, but he still dumped her.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2008, 08:15:31 pm »
Merci brokeplex!

Many men dump as you say... after sex; so do women dump me after sex!!

Do we know that Cassie has SEX with Ennis?? Any proof?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2008, 08:17:32 pm »
I don't see any reason for Cassie to figure out that Ennis is gay. Not because she is too dumb to figure it out. But, a man being gay just wasn't something that she would probably consider until the evidence was in front of her face. He wasn't seeing any other men except for Jack, and they had their fishing trips "cover story". The society at large assumes that men are straight until proven otherwise. Maybe thru the years, she thought about Ennis, and maybe she wondered later on after she married Carl.  ???

Heya brokeplex!

I completely agree with this!  Especially what you said about society assuming a person is straight until proven otherwise (this most definitely happens to gay men and women).

Quote
I liked Cassie, just like I liked Alma, and I felt for her dissapointment in Ennis, just like I felt for Alma's broken heart. When I see that scene in the bus stop, I wanted Cassie to grab that plate of pie and rub it in Ennis's face, of course that is consistent with my feelings in the Thanksgiving kitchen scene, I wanted Alma to break that plate over Ennis's head. Those women were way too nice to Ennis.  >:(

LOL, yeah, Ennis did sort of walk all over both Cassie and Alma.  In the end, he was using both of them for reasons way beyond a genuine interest in a romance with either of them.  It's interesting how many promising love interests Ennis had in his life... including sweet and gorgeous Jack, devoted Alma and sweet and gorgeous Cassie. And, in the cases of Jack and Cassie these two made the first move when it comes to courting Ennis.  Poor Ennis, looking at his string of relationship opportunities and the ways that he sort of squanders all of them (one way or another... and yes, it's not all his fault of course)... it really makes me sad for him.  It also reveals just how tortured he was about connecting with people.



Do we know that Cassie has SEX with Ennis?? Any proof?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Yes, Ennis tells us that he had sex with her when he says he's dating a woman who he's "putting the blocks to."  It's a horribly sexist and degrading way to refer to Cassie. But, it does mean that he had sex with her.

And, yes, of course women dump men after sleeping with them all the time.  Even in BBM, Alma dumped Ennis.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2008, 08:24:44 pm »
Thanks brown eyes!

Hey, wait a minute, may I say!!

Cassie is the one who forced Ennis! Remember her pulling Ennis's arm to come to the floor? Her, not him!

And as far, putting the blocks, does that simply mean he had to NOT communicate with her, since she was persisting still, and still, and still? That can't mean he did have sex with her, really ??

I have had many women like Cassie who have came on to me, and I assure you that I had NO sex with any of these!!
I am like Ennis!

What do you think about that, may I ask?


Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2008, 08:32:57 pm »

As far as I understand "the blocks" is a breeding term that applies to animals.  I could be wrong but that's what I think he means in his comment to Jack.  He's at least trying to demonstrate his sexual prowess to Jack here.  They're both bragging to each other about sexual conquests with women (although it seems reasonably clear that in Jack's case the "ranch foreman's wife" was really a veiled reference to Randall... the ranch foreman himself).



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Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2008, 08:36:21 pm »

(one way or another... and yes, it's not all his fault of course)... it really makes me sad for him. 




you are giving Ennis more of break than I will. Ennis was responsible for his life, yes, he was in a difficult situation, but he was responsible for hurting Alma, Jack and Cassie.

perhaps at the end, the famous comment "Jack I swear" really meant, "I swear that I finally understand the tragedy that I have allowed to unfold in our lives."

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2008, 08:39:07 pm »
As far as I understand "the blocks" is a breeding term that applies to animals.  I could be wrong but that's what I think he means in his comment to Jack.  He's at least trying to demonstrate his sexual prowess to Jack here.  They're both bragging to each other about sexual conquests with women (although it seems reasonably clear that in Jack's case the "ranch foreman's wife" was really a veiled reference to Randall... the ranch foreman himself).





I believe that is correct, I think that it has something to do with the blocked cages that breeding animals are placed in while encouraging their breeding. ???

 Ask Injest, she raises horses and cattle on a ranch here in TX. I'm just a city boy.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2008, 08:41:01 pm »

you are giving Ennis more of break than I will. Ennis was responsible for his life, yes, he was in a difficult situation, but he was responsible for hurting Alma, Jack and Cassie.

perhaps at the end, the famous comment "Jack I swear" really meant, "I swear that I finally understand the tragedy that I have allowed to unfold in our lives."

You're right brokeplex.  I am trying to give Ennis a bit of a break, even though he certainly contributes to a lot of heartache and pain for the people who love him.  But, I also have a lot of sympathy for Ennis and the struggles we know he goes through.

All the characters are flawed one way or the other.  And, Ennis most certainly is too.  But, yes, I'm willing to cut him some slack on certain issues (even if some of the things he says and does make me angry or disappointed).

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2008, 08:42:55 pm »
Do we know if Ennis had sex with Cassie?

What proof?

All replies  wanted for all... please!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2008, 08:49:02 pm »
I believe that is correct, I think that it has something to do with the blocked cages that breeding animals are placed in while encouraging their breeding. ???


Yes, doing a quick google search (a sad search! and one that I never want to repeat!) I found numerous references to the concept of "breeding blocks".  Here's a sentence in which the term is used in an article about dog fighting rings and the breeding of pitbulls.  This website seems to be about animal cruelty issues.

http://www.project-hope.net/diary/diary_pit_march1.html
Quote
In the yard were two "breeding blocks," where a female's head would be forced through a metal ring so that a "stud" could mount her.
:(


There also seem to be more conventional uses for this type of thing on ranches, etc.  So, it doesn't seem surprising that Ennis would be familiar with this kind of slang.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2008, 08:49:23 pm »
You're right brokeplex.  I am trying to give Ennis a bit of a break, even though he certainly contributes to a lot of heartache and pain for the people who love him.  But, I also have a lot of sympathy for Ennis and the struggles we know he goes through.

All the characters are flawed one way or the other.  And, Ennis most certainly is too.  But, yes, I'm willing to cut him some slack on certain issues (even if some of the things he says and does make me angry or disappointed).



thats good, you balance out my colder tough love stance with Ennis.

I understand Ennis, I understand the pain and the constraints on him, and maybe that is why I know he didn't have to break so many hearts. I accept the fact  that Ennis could never have lived with Jack, but I also know that Ennis could have treated Alma differently, their marriage could have lasted. Alma had Ennis's life in her hands, she knew the truth and never spoke of it until the Thanksgiving scene. Why? She loved him and wanted the marriage to work. If Ennis had just met her 1/4 of the way, they could have been happier. And I bet she would have looked the other way about Jack. But Ennis chose to behave in a manner that was intolerable. And think about this, Alma could have destroyed Ennis in his community, could have destroyed Ennis's relationship with his two girls, yet she chose to remain silent and protect that unpleasant man. "St. Alma" in my book!  :)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2008, 08:52:42 pm »
I agree with most of what you say, Brokeplex ( :D!!) except this:

He wanted sex from Cassie,

I don't think sex had anything to do with why he stuck around with Cassie for so long. In fact, imagining them having sex, I picture him being about as eager as he was with Alma -- i.e., he has to force himself to feign enthusiasm.

I think Cassie presented herself at an opportune time. It probably didn't happen immediately after Thanksgiving or his subsequent camping trip with Jack, but in the movie the events come in that order, and I think we're intended to assume that he's still worried about what people on the pavement think.

Then Cassie comes along, dragging him onto the dance floor, plunking her feet in his lap, talking about marriage -- a perfect cover. He tends to be pretty passive in relationships, but it works out for him, too. They could have gone on for decades if Jack hadn't forced him to face up to the lie he was living.

Oh, the one other area where I would disagree with you is his treatment of Alma. His breakup with Cassie was undeniably cruel, and his infidelity to Alma isn't really excusable. But I think their marriage dissolved for a multitude of reasons, and Alma wasn't without 'blame."

Do we know if Ennis had sex with Cassie?

What proof?

Well, I guess all the proof we have is that 1) he said so to Jack and 2) Cassie probably wouldn't have stuck around for five years otherwise. She wouldn't have to say, "I don't get you, Ennis Del Mar," because she probably would have figured him out long before that.


« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 10:05:28 am by whysoserious? »

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2008, 08:55:39 pm »
Wow, wow !!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2008, 09:04:43 pm »
Wow, may I disagree or simply try to take another light on things:

Cassie goes after Ennis!! Let's not forget that... she drags him on, even if Ennis does NOT want to start nor continue a relationship!!

It is likely obvious that Ennis does not go OFTEN with Cassie, maybe so?? But Cassie persists and persists... she is the one making contacts !! (Seems to me that is what Ennis says to Jack!! ??)

These are two things that I find Eng and/or the ss... is/are anti-gay:
Alma and Cassie wait way, way , way too long, too long to break realtionships?? That is NOT natural !! WE do NOT see that in our society!

More later...

au revoir,
hugs!

Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2008, 11:08:44 am »
Alma and Cassie wait way, way , way too long, too long to break realtionships?? That is NOT natural !! WE do NOT see that in our society!

It happens all the time, and people keep trying to make relationships work that clearly aren't working for any number of reasons, sometimes for many years, until something happens that makes them realise that the situation is intolerable.

It is likely obvious that Ennis does not go OFTEN with Cassie, maybe so?? But Cassie persists and persists... she is the one making contacts !!

The same could be said of Jack. It's Jack who made the first move on the mountain, Jack who instigated the contact at the 4 year reunion, Jack who keeps trying to persuade Ennis of the "sweet life" they could have, Jack who's bitching about not meeting up more often, when Ennis has work commitments...

The one thing that comes through from reading this thread through is not that Cassie's homophobic (I see no evidence or proof of that), but that Ennis is totally emotionally crippled. He doesn't know how to communicate with anyone, and doesn't understand, or know how to articulate his feelings, and as a consequence treats almost everyone in his life appallingly, but I do feel he's more to be pitied than blamed. He has so many chances in his life, but he misses them all.

Probably Jack comes the closest to understanding Ennis and trying to bring him out of himself, but ultimately he pushes Jack away too. He never understands or knows how to communicate with Alma or Cassie, or even his daughters (from the scene at the end of the film he still thinks Alma Jnr's dating a boyfriend she split up with two years before, and he never really understands Jack either, and that's the tragedy, because Jack's probably the one person who has the power to help Ennis change for the better, but ultimately Ennis's stubbornness is too strong.

Can we blame Ennis for how he treats those who love him, all the way through his life? Yes, I guess on one level we can, and particularly if we presume that Ennis is aware of his behaviour. On another level though I don't think he is aware of his behaviour. I've lived with a man who finds it impossible to communicate with anyone - he doesn't know the words to say, and finds interacting in a social situation or conversation a huge trial, and will retreat into silence if pushed into being sociable. A man whose mind is so closed that he doesn't fully appreciate his own feelings, not knowing how to put them into words or actions, let alone be able to empathise with anyone else and understand about the effect his words and actions might have on them. I struggled for so long to try and 'read' him and understand is moods and his inappropriate reactions, and in the end gave up because I simply didn't have enough emotional energy for both of us. Sound like a brown eyed cowboy from Wyoming we know..?


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2008, 11:36:18 am »
Thanks very much Bliss!

Like other members, your post(s) say much, indeed!!  And I am very grateful for that! It makes me think as well as be sentimental and emotional (and that is a good thing), as I learn everyday about life !!

May I say:
You talk about Alma, Cassie, Jack, Ennis... with reason and feeling!! And that is great !!

Can we all note that Ennis is reasoning and also using more his emotions, and when he combines that, he is becoming more clear... but that takes much, much, much time than Jack, Alma, Cassie tried as times !! ?? Does that make sense Bliss and all of you too on Bettermost/and guests ?

I wondered why Cassie became a player here in the BM movie, and I thought that that was maybe because Eng and the ss writer(s) (and/or those connected doing this film) was maybe anti-gay by stressing this charactor: Cassie !!- That as so, because it deminishes Ennis as a good sport, as well as Jack too in some ways !! You understand?

Didn't Annie accentuate Ennis and Jack as good sports in her book ?? But he BM movie advances otherwise ??

Anyway, maybe by adding Cassie now in the BM movie, then we come to understand that Ennis (a gay or bi man of good charactor) is not the only one that needs helps to evolve but that straights (as in heterosexuals) too need help, yes as well to understand gay or bi life ?? Or is the BM movie only stressing being gay or bi is no good, and that the only importance is being straight or acting like that no matter of you are gay or bi ??

Puzzling is it ??

Awaiting your thoughts,
au revoir,
hugs!

Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2008, 01:35:12 pm »
Can we all note that Ennis is reasoning and also using more his emotions, and when he combines that, he is becoming more clear... but that takes much, much, much time than Jack, Alma, Cassie tried as times !! ?? Does that make sense Bliss and all of you too on Bettermost/and guests ?

I think that they all probably gave up on him him in their own ways, and maybe with more time he may have learned to deal with his emotions better, but they grew tired of waiting for him, and tired of expending all that emotional energy on him for very little return. There is a sign though at the end of the film that maybe he's learning, and maybe he's realised with Jack's death that he has to change, and it makes him realise that he can't hide from his emotions. At the end he changes his mind about working so that he can go to Alma Jnr's wedding, and he sits and drinks with her. It's still awkward, and he still doesn't really know what to say, but he's trying.

I wondered why Cassie became a player here in the BM movie, and I thought that that was maybe because Eng and the ss writer(s) (and/or those connected doing this film) was maybe anti-gay by stressing this charactor: Cassie !!- That as so, because it deminishes Ennis as a good sport, as well as Jack too in some ways !! You understand?

Didn't Annie accentuate Ennis and Jack as good sports in her book ?? But he BM movie advances otherwise ??

Anyway, maybe by adding Cassie now in the BM movie, then we come to understand that Ennis (a gay or bi man of good charactor) is not the only one that needs helps to evolve but that straights (as in heterosexuals) too need help, yes as well to understand gay or bi life ?? Or is the BM movie only stressing being gay or bi is no good, and that the only importance is being straight or acting like that no matter of you are gay or bi ??


I don't think it's that at all. Cassie is in the SS, but in style the SS is necessarily sparse. The whole thing's only 28 pages, and even the time on Brokeback is only 8 pages, but the whole story covers 20 years in Ennis's life. To have enough material for the film they had to "invent" scenes and "fill in the gaps". Ennis telling Jack about Cassie is in the SS, but in the film it wouldn't make sense to show Ennis going from the divorce scene to the final camping trip with Jack where he talks about Cassie with nothing inbetween. From the divorce to the camping trip is quite a stretch of time, and there had to be some explanation.

Cassie's inclusion in both the SS and the film has nothing to do with being anti-gay, but just shows the complexity of Ennis's life. As a post-divorced single man he would have been expected at that time to be at least dating someone, if not married again. Maybe he was seeing Cassie as that was expected of him, and her having made the first move made it easier for him to start the relationship. Maybe he did feel something for her - who knows?! Ennis never was much the talking kind!   

I don't think the film says anything about heterosexuals needing help to understand gay or bi life (at least in terms of Cassie because we've no evidence she even knew of the other part of Ennis's life). The fact that Ennis had a relationship with Cassie, whether as a cover or not, is just one way of showing that especially at that time, in that society, Ennis didn't have an option, or didn't feel he had any option but to "act straight", and that's something unfortunately that has happened for a long time, and continues to happen, but the central thread throughout both the SS and the film is Jack and Ennis, and it is essentially their story. There's certainly nothing anti-gay about the film that I can see.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2008, 02:00:20 pm »
Merci Bliss!

I have read too quickly since I must return to create my paintings, and I assure that that I will re-read it (your post) many times, since I find it so marvelous!

For now, the idea that comes to my mind before I forget it, is that Ennis had also TO THINK ABOUT protecting his OWN Life ? Plus that of OTHERS too ??

But no one ponders about that ? And neither does Cassie?

Au revoir,
hugs! P.S. If I forget, please remind me!

Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2008, 03:17:36 pm »
For now, the idea that comes to my mind before I forget it, is that Ennis had also TO THINK ABOUT protecting his OWN Life ? Plus that of OTHERS too ??

That's a good point, and one that probably had great bearing on why his emotions are so repressed. The murder scene he witnessed as a child had a huge impact on him, and the tire irons are a constant fear throughout his life. He first tells Jack about it up on the mountain at the start of the story, but the last lines of the SS are very telling also because in his dreams he sees the tire irons, and how Annie portrays that in so few words - "but the can of beans with the spoon handle jutting out and balanced on the log was there as well, in cartoon shape and lurid colours that gave the dreams a flavour of comic obscenity. The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron" - makes you see that dream. The tire irons and Jack both haunt him, and I think maybe it's only with those last few lines that the full impact of fear on Ennis's life and how he had to hide his relationship with Jack really becomes clear. Ennis undoubtedly did have a problem with expressing his emotions and communicating with people, and he hurt a lot of people in the process, but I think that fear that was a constant in his life also played a a large part in him repressing so much about himself.

Maybe part of it with Cassie (and maybe Alma also to a certain extent) was that he feared getting too close, not only because allowing himself to get too close would mean opening himself up to her, but because that might also mean that there was a danger she would find out about his secret life with Jack, and feared her reaction, and who she might tell. If his secret was to come out...back to the fear of the tire irons again.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2008, 03:55:25 pm »
For the original subject:

Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?

We have no way to tell.


Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2008, 03:55:42 pm »
Merci encore Bliss!

Reading your post makes me think of something:
the two females that have a relationship with Ennis know a lot of people !! Really a lot like all (or nearly so) in those places where Ennis lives !! Ennis must have felt that as a danger  !! ??

If Ennis breaks up with them (Alma and Cassie), then it could be very dangerous for him !!
Both could tell that Ennis is gay or bi... to other persons, right ?? Easily !!

Too easily so ?? As revenge?? Or for other reasons, each woman could damage not ONLY Ennis reputation, but very well his PHYSICAL life... as we saw that that tough old bird of the two that he was murdered because he was gay... was horrid thing that had happenned to him since his sex was taken away... destroyed from that body so death occurs !!

Such murders of gay men still happen in our societies, unfortunately, just because they are gay men !! The case of Sheppard is one !! And many murderers get away with it - (I know of one in my last city who never spent a day in jail since the jury believed him and felt sorry for the murderer... of all things !!), or a murderer just spends few hours in prisons! But the dead can not talk... and neither can his relatives nor loves nor others talk to him now !!

I fear nearly daily getting to be discovered as a gay man, and getting murdered because of that orientation !!
I have lost jobs, reputations, health, a house and property, because I am a gay man in our democratic societies !! And I fear the islamics and other such radicals coming into our lands, since many would be proud to murder a gay man !!

So Ennis  fears and much more, since even for his life !!

Alma sure ruins Ennis's reputation at that Thanksgiving dinner, right ??

So what happened after THAT Alma outcry ? Did Ennis feel better ??

Wondering what you think... and others too,
au revoir,
hugs!!

Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2008, 11:39:03 am »
Alma knows about Ennis and Jack right back from the time of the four year reunion - we know that from the scene at Thanksgiving when she confronts him about it. She knew for all those years, but she never told anyone, never said anything when she could have ruined Ennis, but she didn't. That says a lot about Alma as a person. Was it to protect Ennis? Was it to protect the girls? Maybe she was simply trying desperately to save her marriage, because after all she does love Ennis. She refers to Jack as "Jack Nasty", but again I don't think that's because she's homophobic (again, we're not privy to her thoughts either, and we're given no indication either way really) but more that Jack's the person who in her eyes "stole" her husband away from her. Even after the Thanksgiving scene though, there's still no indication that she tells anyone. Ennis still lives in or near the town, and is still finding work in the area, so there's no indication that anyone knows Ennis's secret.

I don't think there's any indication at all that Cassie knows anything about Jack, or even suspects, so I don't think that Cassie would be a danger to him, even after they break up. Alma certainly could be a potential danger to him, but as I said, there's no indication that she says anything to anyone, and though I suspect the fact that she could potentially tell is something that's a constant worry to Ennis, I think that they probably came to some kind of uneasy truce.

Such murders of gay men still happen in our societies, unfortunately, just because they are gay men !! The case of Sheppard is one !! And many murderers get away with it - (I know of one in my last city who never spent a day in jail since the jury believed him and felt sorry for the murderer... of all things !!), or a murderer just spends few hours in prisons! But the dead can not talk... and neither can his relatives nor loves nor others talk to him now !!

I fear nearly daily getting to be discovered as a gay man, and getting murdered because of that orientation !!
I have lost jobs, reputations, health, a house and property, because I am a gay man in our democratic societies !! And I fear the islamics and other such radicals coming into our lands, since many would be proud to murder a gay man !!

So Ennis  fears and much more, since even for his life !!

As you say, that such murders still occur today in the twenty-first century in a supposedly enlightened society is a tragedy, and that gay men, such as yourself, must fear the consequences of their sexuality becoming known is something that shouldn't happen.  We live in an imperfect world though, and sadly society has alsorts of prejudices and faults. I do fear though the demonising of the Islamic culture. My background is in working in equal opportunities, and through my work I have come into contact with a lot of people from different cultures. The majority, even if they don't always share all of our "western" beliefs and customs, would never condone murder and such acts of violence. To brand all Muslims as radicals, extremists and terrorists is like saying that those involved in the Waco siege (Seventh Day Adventists are a Protestant Christian denomination) are representative of all Christians, which simply isn't true. Numerically religious extremists make up only a small minority of those within religions. Branches of different religions all over the world have extreme views, and not all radicals and extremists form their ideologies based on religious views.

The British National Party in the UK is an extreme right-wing political party whose main policy is of returning the UK to a "overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948" - they don't accept the Jewish, Hindu or Sikh, or Muslim religions to be culturally or ethnically British. Under their previous leadership their policies were largely anti-Semetic, but their current membership focuses on Muslims.  They have anti-homosexuality policies also though and have a policy of re-criminalisation of homosexuality, and advocates the repeal of all anti-discrimination legislation.

They often are linked to violence and intimidation (such characters are portrayed in parts in the film "My Beautiful Laundrette" about a gay relationship between two young gay men, one white and one Asian - ages since I've watched that actually - I might watch that tonight) and they have also been linked to terrorist groups. The BNP's philosophy isn't based on religion, but they can be just as dangerous.

Prejudice and intolerance exists in all sorts of forms and in all segments of society still today, whether in rural Wyoming, or inner-cities in the UK, Canada or the US, and homophobia is still very much alive similarly, and is something we should all be fighting.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2008, 09:20:08 pm »
For the original subject:

Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?

We have no way to tell.



I think that you are correct, there really isn't enough material in either the ss or the film to give us any idea of Cassie's tolerance or intolerance for gays. We can make assumptions about her, but that is all, and those assumptions do not shed much light on the film or the short story.

Offline RossInIllinois

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2008, 10:00:24 pm »
Good Grief, Not this crap again, say it isn't so....

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2008, 10:14:41 pm »
Good Grief, Not this crap again, say it isn't so....

Ross, Artiste brought it up.

 I am just trying to place it in context by saying that we don't know enough about the character to evaluate her in that manner. and then hopefully we will move on.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2008, 10:23:08 am »
Thanks Bliss!

You say much and you will only get a too brief reply right now, since I am terribly late in starting to create my paintings to-day already!

Here goes!

You say:
   Even after the Thanksgiving scene though, there's still no indication that she tells anyone. Ennis still lives in or near the town, and is still finding work in the area, so there's no indication that anyone knows Ennis's secret.
 

......

Bliss and to others:
I don't think that is exactly correct, since there are some hints or proofs, surely!!
1- Doesn't Alma know Cassie ??
2- Alma talks loud or yells at Jack at the Thanksgiving dinner, remember ?? Doesn't the others there figure or hear that ??
3- I can not think that Alma does not talk privately to the next husband she marries after her first (Jack), can you?
4- May I repeat that Cassie worked/works at the bar, and, therefore knows, many persons - with that experiences with the public, Cassie must be a good judge  of persons ??

Etc., later.

Pour le moment (For the moment), au revoir,
hugs!

Truth ?? There is much yet to be found about cassie !! - I feel... if I may say !!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2008, 06:40:31 pm »
Was Cassie bad for Ennis??

Even if we like Cassie in some or many ways, she is  wrong maybe for Ennis ?

Would Cassie have been happy... if she would have lived with Ennis, even if he would have been in love with her ??

Even if Ennis could or would love her, he does not seem to be her type, since she likes to be agressive while he is quiet, she likes fun and dances, etc., being outgoing!! She would want to go out often while Ennis would prefer to stay at home resting after physical day long work !! ??

How long would Cassie and Ennis in such a marriage would last?  Especially once she figured that her husband Ennis loved a man ??

Would Cassie like to live live in a ranch with Ennis who would have to do so ??


Cassie wants to be a nurse! So, she would want to live in cities?

But there in cities, Ennis would have no jobs likely, or be unhappy!! ??

Much can be said yet about Cassie if she knows about Ennis who loves a man (Jack)... and is she homophobic?

Au revoir,
hugs!



Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2008, 08:05:38 pm »
Some interesting points there Artiste. It's late though now here and I need to get to bed. I'll respond tomorrow when I get in from work.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2008, 10:26:03 pm »
Was Cassie bad for Ennis??

Even if we like Cassie in some or many ways, she is  wrong maybe for Ennis ?

Would Cassie have been happy... if she would have lived with Ennis, even if he would have been in love with her ??

Even if Ennis could or would love her, he does not seem to be her type, since she likes to be agressive while he is quiet, she likes fun and dances, etc., being outgoing!! She would want to go out often while Ennis would prefer to stay at home resting after physical day long work !! ??

How long would Cassie and Ennis in such a marriage would last?  Especially once she figured that her husband Ennis loved a man ??

Would Cassie like to live live in a ranch with Ennis who would have to do so ??


Cassie wants to be a nurse! So, she would want to live in cities?

But there in cities, Ennis would have no jobs likely, or be unhappy!! ??

Much can be said yet about Cassie if she knows about Ennis who loves a man (Jack)... and is she homophobic?

Au revoir,
hugs!




perhaps Proulx and later the filmmakers were making a point in pairing Ennis with three people with whom he really could not for various reasons have a lifetime relationship. He is, to use Shakespeare's words, "starcrossed". Ennis is the ultimate outsider, only at home while he is alone, on the range, with his livestock who couldn't make verbal demands and didn't require much out of him except some feed. 

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2008, 10:52:57 pm »
Thanks oilfieldtrash!

May I say to you and to all too:
No man can be that much of an island ?

At least Ennis did communicate; that is tried !!
He had fun with Jack, he had a family... kids, and even after Cassie's insistance, he stopped that !!!

Do we tend to forget that he has those major concerns, plus the ongoing fear that if found with another man, his life is in danger !! ??

Does Ennis change ??  Did Cassie help him or harmed him in some way(s) ??

Au revoir,
hugs!


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2008, 11:06:40 pm »
Thanks oilfieldtrash!

May I say to you and to all too:
No man can be that much of an island ?

At least Ennis did communicate; that is tried !!
He had fun with Jack, he had a family... kids, and even after Cassie's insistance, he stopped that !!!

Do we tend to forget that he has those major concerns, plus the ongoing fear that if found with another man, his life is in danger !! ??

Does Ennis change ??  Did Cassie help him or harmed him in some way(s) ??

Au revoir,
hugs!



I can't see that Cassie changed Ennis. Ennis was always an almost pathological loner, he really preferred to be by himself with the livestock. That is the major reason why he did not take the job with the county, and make more money and make Alma happy in the process.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2008, 11:10:11 pm »
Thanks oilfieldtrash!

Didn't Cassie try to change Ennis ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2008, 11:15:02 pm »
Thanks oilfieldtrash!

Didn't Cassie try to change Ennis ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

I don't see any attempts to modify Ennis, other than to try to get Ennis to dance with her while his daughter sat alone at the table sipping her soft drink.
And other than that screw top bottle of white wine she left in Ennis's refrigerator, that of course is convenient since it gave Ennis something with which to toast Junior's wedding.   :)

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2008, 11:21:03 pm »
Thanks oilfieldtrash!

Was it not Cassie that forced herself on Ennis and kept on that way?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2008, 11:24:14 pm »
Thanks oilfieldtrash!

Was it not Cassie that forced herself on Ennis and kept on that way?

Au revoir,
hugs!

no she didn't "force" herself on him. that is like saying that Jack forced himself on Ennis. :laugh: that just wasn't the case for either of them.

I also imagine Alma making suggestions that finally forced Ennis to propose to her. Ennis was just such a "pathological" loner that he had major problems interacting with human beings. Like I said above, maybe that is why he preferred to be around livestock.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2008, 11:27:35 pm »
Thanks oilfieldtrash!

May I disagree with you:

since I do see Cassie forcing Ennis' hand (that we see in more than one way in the movie),
plus Ennis says so to Jack!!

??

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2008, 11:41:06 pm »
Thanks oilfieldtrash!

May I disagree with you:

since I do see Cassie forcing Ennis' hand (that we see in more than one way in the movie),
plus Ennis says so to Jack!!

??

Au revoir,
hugs!

when? and how?   ???

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2008, 10:09:20 am »
Thanks oilfrieldtrash!

Noted is that Cassie forced Ennis on to the floor.
He did not want to be with her!!

And Ennis did say to Jack that Cassie was forcing herself on to him!

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2008, 11:53:31 am »
Thanks oilfrieldtrash!

Noted is that Cassie forced Ennis on to the floor.
He did not want to be with her!!

Ennis is a big boy. He had his reasons for going along with her. If he didn't want to, it's hard to imagine someone of Cassie's size and build "forcing" a man who spends his days wrangling animals to do anything.

Quote
And Ennis did say to Jack that Cassie was forcing herself on to him!

Artiste, what Ennis says to Jack is, "(I've) been putting the blocks to a good-lookin' little gal over in Riverton." I don't know how you get "Cassie was forcing herself on to him" out of that. If anything, as we've already discussed on this thread, the phrase "putting the blocks to" implies aggression in the other direction.

If you've got some other line in mind, please quote it specifically. I've seen the movie 20 times and read the story about 10, and I can't think of any dialogue remotely like what you describe.




Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2008, 12:39:11 pm »
Thanks whysoserious?!

Did you say:
But it's an interesting topic and there's no reason not to explore it...

All points of view have a place here...

..........

Whysoserious, to that may I say that there is always to sides of a coin, right?

You and some others are taking the position or think that Cassie is not forcing herself on Ennis, right??

May I see the opposite light or view ??

Everyone sees that Cassie forces Ennis on to the floor; she pulls him !!
Is that not so?
And Ennis does not want to do so!!
.............

Your interpretation of what Ennis says to Jack about Cassie, is not mine evidently!!  You have a right to your own opinion, on that!  I see that Cassie again is forcing herself... again and again, and that is why Ennis must end this since she is agressive towards him, but he is unwilling !! Her ways are artificial only, as she tries to sparkle Ennis, but Ennis has no crush on her (and that is NOT his fault)!!

Cassie tries to seduce continuously Ennis and in many ways, but he will not have anything to do with her, and that is his choice, not her's unfortunately. You need two to tango, right?? Cassie is making always a solo tango!!

Cassie should have ended her make-believe affair right away after dancing with Ennis, but no she does not!!
If she abuses Ennis or not, that is another question??

Cassie is desperate, why ? Is she maybe abusing herself, is she ?

It is NOT Ennis' fault that he is not in love with Cassie, right?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2008, 12:48:51 pm »
Whysoserious, to that may I say that there is always to sides of a coin, right?

You and some others are taking the position or think that Cassie is not forcing herself on Ennis, right??

May I see the opposite light or view ??

Of course! You express your views, and I express mine.

Quote
Everyone sees that Cassie forces Ennis on to the floor; she pulls him !!
Is that not so?
And Ennis does not want to do so!!

Ennis seems reluctant to go onto the dance floor. But if he were absolutely opposed to going, I don't think she could force him.

Quote
Your interpretation of what Ennis says to Jack about Cassie, is not mine evidently!!  You have a right to your own opinion, on that!

Yes, but mine is not an interpretation or an opinion, it's a direct quote from the movie.

Quote
Cassie should have ended her make-believe affair right away after dancing with Ennis, but no she does not!!

Another reason to argue that Ennis is not being "forced" is that when he finally decides to end the relationship, he does.

Quote
If she abuses Ennis or not, that is another question??

If you're asking, my opinion is no. She does not "abuse" him.

Quote
It is NOT Ennis' fault that he is not in love with Cassie, right?

Right.



Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2008, 11:16:42 pm »
Ennis is a big boy. He had his reasons for going along with her. If he didn't want to, it's hard to imagine someone of Cassie's size and build "forcing" a man who spends his days wrangling animals to do anything.

Artiste, what Ennis says to Jack is, "(I've) been putting the blocks to a good-lookin' little gal over in Riverton." I don't know how you get "Cassie was forcing herself on to him" out of that. If anything, as we've already discussed on this thread, the phrase "putting the blocks to" implies aggression in the other direction.

If you've got some other line in mind, please quote it specifically. I've seen the movie 20 times and read the story about 10, and I can't think of any dialogue remotely like what you describe.





only 20 times for the film and only 10 times for the ss? when you get a chance, you have some catching up to do !  ;D

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2008, 11:21:46 pm »
only 20 times for the film and only 10 times for the ss? when you get a chance, you have some catching up to do !  ;D

Around here, when you say you've seen the movie 20 times, people say, "What -- didn't you like it?"

 :laugh:




Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #72 on: April 09, 2008, 02:16:55 am »
Around here, when you say you've seen the movie 20 times, people say, "What -- didn't you like it?"

 :laugh:


 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Guess I didn't like it either  ;).
We're still in in synch reagarding the number of our viewings of the movie (same is true for the SS).

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #73 on: April 09, 2008, 10:22:06 am »
We're still in in synch reagarding the number of our viewings of the movie (same is true for the SS).

And why does that not surprise me?  :)  :-*


Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2008, 10:28:46 am »
Thanks whysoserious, thanks  Penthesilea, thanks  oilfieldtrash !!!

Cassie is indeed fascinating... isn't she ??

Much can be said or thought about her yet, may I say.
WE think that her role is simple... but it's more than that!! May I suggest...

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2008, 01:56:30 pm »
Thanks oilfieldtrash!

Was it not Cassie that forced herself on Ennis and kept on that way?

Au revoir,
hugs!

I certainly don't think Cassie forces herself on Ennis.  In a certain way, Ennis uses Cassie to maintain his public appearance of being a straight man.  I think he's happy (to a certain extent) that she comes along because it's quite convenient for him.

Artiste, you're right that Cassie makes the "first move" in approaching him and asking him to dance (and to rub her feet, etc.).  In that regard, she's like Jack... both Jack and Cassie make the "first moves" in their relationships with Ennis.  And, I don't think either one can be accused of forcing Ennis to do anything.

Cassie's role in the film certainly is complex, I agree with you (and almost everything in BBM is complex, which makes it so great).  In one sense, I think Cassie... being probably one of the most beautiful women in Riverton... is meant to demonstrate the degree to which Ennis is not straight and maybe not even really bisexual.  Most people who are attracted to women would be thrilled to have Cassie as a girlfriend or would at least be flattered or excited by her attentions.  And, Ennis's lack of enthusiasm is very telling.  The little smile he gives Cassie when he rubs her feet, does show some level interest on the part of Ennis.  But, again, not the excitement one might expect.

Ennis does date her for a long time.  Introduces her to his kids (which is often considered a big step in a relationship), etc.  So Cassie had good reason to believe that their relationship was serious.  Whereas, I think Ennis continues to see the relationship as convenient and as a cover.  His totally bored attitude towards it in his discussion with Jack is pretty revealing.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2008, 02:36:43 pm »
Merci atz!

Your post reveals much, and some of it surprises me too!!

Even if I am a homosexual man, I would be honoured to think that Marylin Monroe Cassie had a crush on me! (That has hapenned to me with such a Marylin Monroe, which I adore and love as actress and more as a person of worth!!)

I am flattered like Ennis that Cassie acts, but I would NOT have sex with her; therefore, I do not think that Ennis had sex with her neither?? Is that a possibility?

Au revoir,
so glad that you reply,
hugs!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2008, 03:50:29 pm »
I am flattered like Ennis that Cassie acts, but I would NOT have sex with her; therefore, I do not think that Ennis had sex with her neither?? Is that a possibility?

I don't think so. Artiste, clearly you are more comfortable with your identity as a gay man than Ennis was. He didn't want anyone to know he was gay, including Cassie. In order to keep up the pretense of her being his girlfriend, he has to act the part fully. So it's pretty impossible to imagine a relationship going on that long without him going through the motions of sex with Cassie. And even if he found it unappealing, I think he would have managed it, just as he managed a sexual relationship with Alma. I imagine he employed a bit of self-delusion -- though at some level he knew he was gay, perhaps he was able to convince himself that, as Story Ennis says, he "like(s) doin it with women" (personally, I don't think Story Ennis was being entirely honest here himself).

Meanwhile, if they went for years without sex I think Cassie herself would have wondered -- if not figured out -- the reason for Ennis' reluctance.

Artiste, you say you were flattered by your appeal to a "Marilyn Monroe." But it doesn't sound as if you dated her, or that you used her year after year as a front to conceal your real sexual orientation. That's one big difference between you and Ennis, and why your situations are not parallel.



Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2008, 04:21:27 pm »
Around here, when you say you've seen the movie 20 times, people say, "What -- didn't you like it?"

 :laugh:

LOL!  :laugh: :D :laugh: :D :laugh:


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2008, 07:27:14 pm »
Thanks seriouscrayons !

Your post is perplexing and/or something as in pensive for moi, yes me to think about!!

I did date females/ladies!!

More on that later,   if you like [/i]!!

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2008, 07:35:50 pm »
I did date females/ladies!!

More on that later,   if you like [/i]!!

Sure, Artiste. Whatever you're comfortable talking about.  :)

In any case, though, my point remains that if Ennis dates Cassie in order to fool people into thinking he's straight, he'll have to fool Cassie, too. And if Ennis avoids having sex in five years of dating, Cassie is going to have some serious questions about his sexuality, to say the least. Which would jeopardize Ennis' cover.


Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #81 on: April 10, 2008, 11:01:18 pm »
Thanks seriouscrayons!

By your post, you make a good point.

.........

Seriouscrayons, now, let's see if there is another light, maybe ?
........

I have read to-day:
10 things you don't know about sex
Wing Sze Tang reports.
Provided by FASHION Magazine
1: Ready, set, go—there’s nearly no difference in the amount of time it takes healthy men and women to reach peak sexual arousal: roughly 10 minutes.

2: One per cent of adults have zero interest in sex and have never felt sexually attracted to anyone at all. Asexuality may be an under-the-radar sexual orientation, but researchers have only just begun to study it. On the other end of the rainbow, an estimated 3 to 6 per cent of the population have some form of sex addiction.

3: Straight, gay or flexible? Recent research suggests women may be “intrinsically bisexual,” and the higher their libido, the more they desire both sexes. In another study, the female subjects—whether they considered themselves straight or gay—were physically aroused by erotic films of both men and women. In contrast, the straight men were excited just by women, and the gay men only by men.

4: Canadian men have, on average, 23 sexual partners in total (notably more than the global average of 13), according to one recent worldwide survey. Their female counterparts reportedly have 10. The hitch? Number crunchers say the finding that men have substantially more bedmates on average than women is mathematically impossible.

5: Beyond its unsexy smell and taste, smoking appears to double a man’s risk of moderate or complete erectile dysfunction.

6: Once upon a time, doctors treated women suffering from “hysteria” by stimulating them to orgasm—a service dubbed “medical massage.” By the 1930s, it was abandoned in favour of psychotherapy.

7: Why do I bed thee? Let me count the ways. U.S. researchers who set out to catalogue all the reasons why humans have sex came up with 237 distinct ones. Among the top 10 motives, women and men had eight in common. A notable exception: “I realized I was in love” came in at number nine for women, but at number 17 for men.

8: Having sex regularly—at least once a week—may promote fertility in women by regulating hormones and menstrual patterns.

9: Male sweat contains androstadienone, a compound that enhances mood and sexual arousal in women. Alas, it also boosts levels of stress hormones. The chemical has been used as an ingredient in men’s fragrances.

10: What’s love got to do with it? Sexual arousal and romantic love activate quite distinct areas of the brain—and love is clearly the more powerful. The latter turns on dopamine-rich regions linked with motivation, and falling in love is not unlike the rush of taking cocaine, hence the addictiveness of a new crush, and the withdrawal-like symptoms of love lost.
 

......

With that, note that I have known a woman that did not have any sexual desire, calling herself asexual !! Of course, I have known also other females who did want sex!!

There might be more men that have never any sexual desires with either sex!! That to me is a surprise according to my experiences !! I have known some men like that: no sex during a lifetime!! Some other men known to me, many after being married to a female, and finding a male afterwards to have sex with, have no sexual desires to have sex with their wife or another female, and I note that many men are like this, and I think thatEnnis is one such case, person/b]!!

Ennis was married before and is now not anymore; so when Cassie comes around and forces herself to him, he does not want her, even if she is Marylin Monroe!! He does NOT want sex with Cassie!!

To me, there seems to be NO proof that Ennis had sex with Cassie !! Is there such a proof?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2008, 11:07:19 pm »

3: Straight, gay or flexible? Recent research suggests women may be “intrinsically bisexual,” and the higher their libido, the more they desire both sexes. In another study, the female subjects—whether they considered themselves straight or gay—were physically aroused by erotic films of both men and women. In contrast, the straight men were excited just by women, and the gay men only by men.


this may be a corollary to the fact that scientists have found the "gay gene" only in self identifying male homosexuals, it has not been found in Lesbians.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #83 on: April 10, 2008, 11:14:59 pm »
Thanks oilfieldtrash !!

You lost me. Please detail... somehow so I can understand?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #84 on: April 10, 2008, 11:15:45 pm »
what do you not understand?

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #85 on: April 10, 2008, 11:19:10 pm »
this may be a corollary to the fact that scientists have found the "gay gene" only in self identifying male homosexuals, it has not been found in Lesbians.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2008, 11:21:43 pm »
what you not understand is the "gay gene", n'est pas?  you just repeated my words without telling me what you don't understand about them.

as Jerry Maguire said, "help me, help you!" ;D

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #87 on: April 10, 2008, 11:24:52 pm »
This:

In contrast, the straight men were excited just by women, and the gay men only by men...   

is related to the

gay gene?
...........

You lost me there!!

I need details to try to understand that!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #88 on: April 10, 2008, 11:33:58 pm »
a part of the sequence in the genetic code has been identified as being the gay gene. the reason is that this unique sequence occurs ONLY in Gay men. it is a unique identifier of a gay man. it is direct proof that, like skin color and eye color, for gay men, "gayness" is an intrinsic biological property that is inheirited, "gayness" is not learned behavior, but is a function of our biology.

I was opining that the gay gene may be responsible for the fact that gay men seemed less flexible in the study that you shared in regard to bisexuality. but women are more flexible about their sexuality. the gay gene does not occur in women, only in men. 

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #89 on: April 11, 2008, 12:53:33 am »
Some other men known to me, many after being married to a female, and finding a male afterwards to have sex with, have no sexual desires to have sex with their wife or another female, and I note that many men are like this, and I think thatEnnis is one such case, person/b]!!

Yes, that's what I think.

Quote
Ennis was married before and is now not anymore; so when Cassie comes around and forces herself to him, he does not want her, even if she is Marylin Monroe!! He does NOT want sex with Cassie!!

To me, there seems to be NO proof that Ennis had sex with Cassie !! Is there such a proof?

Artiste, it seems we're going around in circles. You keep repeating that Cassie forced herself on Ennis, keep saying there is no proof they had sex, etc. I keep saying Ennis had his motives for being with Cassie, keep stating what I consider the reasons to believe they had sex.

And then we go through it all again.

Your lilacs are lovely, BTW.

When I was a child, I had a book with little verses for each letter. I can't remember any of them, except for L. It said, "L is the loveliest letter made. It's lilacs and linen and lemonade." So now I always think of L as, in fact, the loveliest letter.

When my son was about 5, he goes, "You know what words I hate? 'Wonderful' and 'lovely. Because those are ladies' words!" I didn't know whether to be angered by his sexism or thrilled by his perceptiveness. Because they really ARE ladies' words.

Anyway, OT. Getting back to Cassie ...







« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 02:21:25 am by seriouscrayons »

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2008, 11:04:48 am »
Merci seriouscrayons !

Your post adds something. Maybe you don't realized it! Maybe I don't! About certains things !!

Firstly, I do talk in circles.  Like Annie ?? To me, that's good, at times !!

A few years ago, I was at a laywer's cabinet ( I had many lawyers that year I searched for), and I was surprised that he said to me that I talked in circles !!
I did not know that I did that! So, he rushed in his partner, since he wanted him too see that!! This is a very famous lawyer!  You would think that he would have met such a person who talks in  circles before ??

I am starting to find some reasons why I do talk in circles, at times.
Oh, I wonder if Annie knows why she talks in circles?

...............

Seriouscrayons, this is one reason maybe that Cassie is added to the BM movie? That being that Cassie is a circle ?? In her case, it is a boomerang circle!!  You know that a boomerang always comes back ??

Cassie's circle is trying to be attached to Ennis but it can NOT !!
So Cassie's love came back but for herself by herself!!

Ennis is a different circle now that he was married to Alma (a female), and since he found out that his love is leaning towards Jack again (playful sex had been happy the firsts times on Brokeback Mountain), the road of love tries to be more straight... or is straightening towards Jack, another individual and not Cassie !!

I can accept that maybe Ennis finds Cassie convenient, since she has a crush on him, but I find no proof that he had sex with her!!

Why do you think that Cassie is in the movie?

Au revoir,
hugs!   I can consider the word lovely as a ladies's word more often used by females, but I think that wonderful is used by BOTH sexes equally ?? Cassie is lovely, and Ennis is wonderful to her!! - That is my view!! For now...

...................

Talking about words:

what about the words murder and kill; kill is a ladies' word and murder is a gentleman's word ??

Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #91 on: April 11, 2008, 04:42:32 pm »
I can accept that maybe Ennis finds Cassie convenient, since she has a crush on him, but I find no proof that he had sex with her!!


I have no proof that the sun exists, never having been there, and never having known anyone who's been there. I see it every day (British weather permitting), but just because I see it, does it make it real? I've seen photos of it, but photos can be faked, but that's not to say it doesn't exist.  ;)

We have no direct evidence that Jack has a relationship with Randall, but that doesn't mean we don't believe they had a relationship. All we see is a conversation between the two of them on a bench outside the dance hall, Jack's statement to Ennis that he's having an affair with a rancher neighbour's wife, and OMT's mention of Jack going back to Lightning Flat with "some other fella". Not a lot to go on, but reading between the lines, and on the balance of probability, we assume they did have a relationship. Did they have sex? We've no proof of that either, but again on the balance of probability we guess yes, probably.

According to the timeline as close as we can guess, Ennis must have been dating Cassie for 4-5 years. As Seriouscrayons says, given a relationship that long, if they didn't have sex Cassie would be very suspicious (unless we assume she comes under that class of asexual people, but we have no proof of that either) and would surely wonder why. Ennis is a grown man; he's quite capable, if he wishes to, of ending the relationship (he doesn't have a problem with telling Jack "no" on a number of issues, so I can't see saying no to Cassie would be a problem to him), but he doesn't. Cassie isn't forcing him to have a relationship with her. Okay, so when he first meets her he's not too keen on dancing with her, but I know men (and women) who aren't keen on dancing! Maybe he's just had a long day and he just wants to sit down? It's clear from his dancing style that he's not used to dancing and is nervous - maybe he just doesn't want to make a fool of himself, but it's a large leap from Ennis not wanting to dance, to Cassie forcing him to have a relationship with her!

I am flattered like Ennis that Cassie acts, but I would NOT have sex with her; therefore, I do not think that Ennis had sex with her neither?? Is that a possibility?

But you're not Ennis Artiste! Just because you wouldn't have sex with her doesn't mean Ennis wouldn't either.

Okay, looking at the evidence for Cassie and Ennis....

Cassie & Ennis - the evidence
  • Does Ennis have sex with women, or at least a woman? Yes - he's married to Alma and we know they have sex, and they have two kids
  • Cassie and Ennis dated for 4-5 years. Would it be natural to assume in a relationship of that length that the couple concerned would have sex? Yes.
  • Given that, do we see any evidence of Cassie complaining that they don't have sex? (which it would be fair to assume she would if they didn't, unless she falls into the asexual category, which there's no evidence of). No.
  • Do we have any evidence of Cassie being aggressive to Ennis and forcing him to have a relationship with her? No. Pulling him to the dance floor to dance when he wasn't keen is hardly crime of the century, and if I had to list everyone who'd ever made me get up and dance when I really didn't want to, we'd be here all night!
  • Does Cassie view her relationship with Ennis as a "serious relationship"? Cassie asks Alma Jr about Ennis seeing fit to settle down - she clearly has thoughts of marriage, so it's fair to assume theirs is a serious relationship
  • Does the notion of having a "serious relationship" with someone include having sex with them? Usually, yes.
  • Ennis's words to Jack on their final camping trip: "Been putting the blocks to a good-lookin' little gal over in Riverton."

That's a fair bit of evidence there, including a direct quote to Jack.

Quote
Talking about words:

what about the words murder and kill; kill is a ladies' word and murder is a gentleman's word ??

Men kill, definitely, but by definition, a gentleman would not kill, or he would not be a gentleman.   ;)


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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #92 on: April 11, 2008, 04:53:47 pm »
Thank you, BlissC, for your thorough list and cogent argument. I think, as you indicate, the last item is especially noteworthy: Ennis himself says they've been having sex. That is, he tells Jack he's been "putting the blocks to" Cassie, a phrase which in regard to animals refers to mating.

Artiste, you get it directly from the mouth of Ennis -- how much more proof do you need??

But again, we're going over ahd over the same things. BlissC compiled the answers very well, but many of them have already been mentioned here. I don't know why I keep coming to this thread and feeling compelled to answer the same question over and over again. I'm really going to try to stop now.

 ::) ::) ::)


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #93 on: April 11, 2008, 05:01:06 pm »
I have no proof that the sun exists, never having been there, and never having known anyone who's been there. I see it every day (British weather permitting), but just because I see it, does it make it real? I've seen photos of it, but photos can be faked, but that's not to say it doesn't exist.  ;)

We have no direct evidence that Jack has a relationship with Randall, but that doesn't mean we don't believe they had a relationship. All we see is a conversation between the two of them on a bench outside the dance hall, Jack's statement to Ennis that he's having an affair with a rancher neighbour's wife, and OMT's mention of Jack going back to Lightning Flat with "some other fella". Not a lot to go on, but reading between the lines, and on the balance of probability, we assume they did have a relationship. Did they have sex? We've no proof of that either, but again on the balance of probability we guess yes, probably.

According to the timeline as close as we can guess, Ennis must have been dating Cassie for 4-5 years. As Seriouscrayons says, given a relationship that long, if they didn't have sex Cassie would be very suspicious (unless we assume she comes under that class of asexual people, but we have no proof of that either) and would surely wonder why. Ennis is a grown man; he's quite capable, if he wishes to, of ending the relationship (he doesn't have a problem with telling Jack "no" on a number of issues, so I can't see saying no to Cassie would be a problem to him), but he doesn't. Cassie isn't forcing him to have a relationship with her. Okay, so when he first meets her he's not too keen on dancing with her, but I know men (and women) who aren't keen on dancing! Maybe he's just had a long day and he just wants to sit down? It's clear from his dancing style that he's not used to dancing and is nervous - maybe he just doesn't want to make a fool of himself, but it's a large leap from Ennis not wanting to dance, to Cassie forcing him to have a relationship with her!

But you're not Ennis Artiste! Just because you wouldn't have sex with her doesn't mean Ennis wouldn't either.

Okay, looking at the evidence for Cassie and Ennis....

Cassie & Ennis - the evidence
  • Does Ennis have sex with women, or at least a woman? Yes - he's married to Alma and we know they have sex, and they have two kids
  • Cassie and Ennis dated for 4-5 years. Would it be natural to assume in a relationship of that length that the couple concerned would have sex? Yes.
  • Given that, do we see any evidence of Cassie complaining that they don't have sex? (which it would be fair to assume she would if they didn't, unless she falls into the asexual category, which there's no evidence of). No.
  • Do we have any evidence of Cassie being aggressive to Ennis and forcing him to have a relationship with her? No. Pulling him to the dance floor to dance when he wasn't keen is hardly crime of the century, and if I had to list everyone who'd ever made me get up and dance when I really didn't want to, we'd be here all night!
  • Does Cassie view her relationship with Ennis as a "serious relationship"? Cassie asks Alma Jr about Ennis seeing fit to settle down - she clearly has thoughts of marriage, so it's fair to assume theirs is a serious relationship
  • Does the notion of having a "serious relationship" with someone include having sex with them? Usually, yes.
  • Ennis's words to Jack on their final camping trip: "Been putting the blocks to a good-lookin' little gal over in Riverton."

That's a fair bit of evidence there, including a direct quote to Jack.

Men kill, definitely, but by definition, a gentleman would not kill, or he would not be a gentleman.   ;)

the proof that the sun exists lies in the measuring of its effects. I don't need faith or conjecture to believe that the sun exists in the real universe.

the effects of Ennis's relationship with Cassie are numerous and evident in the film. there are no effects observed of a hypothetical relationship between Jack and Randall other than the casual aside by OMT in the kitchen scene. however, it is logical to believe that Jack and Randall had a relationship based even on those sparse details.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #94 on: April 11, 2008, 05:05:56 pm »

 I don't know why I keep coming to this thread and feeling compelled to answer the same question over and over again.


that to me is a much more interesting question than whether or not, or how often Ennis and Cassie had "sex".  ???

a corollary to that question is : why does Artiste seem to need to believe that Ennis did not have "sex" with Cassie?  ???





Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #95 on: April 11, 2008, 06:19:42 pm »
that to me is a much more interesting question than whether or not, or how often Ennis and Cassie had "sex".  ???

Well, now that I've thought about it a bit, maybe I do know why. It's because I'm doing my taxes and I come to BetterMost while I'm waiting for forms to print out and things like that, and when I click "show new replies to your posts" this thread keeps popping up, and it's one of the few that do, so while I'm here I pound out a post to pass the time and relieve the stress I'm feeling over the fact that I made a stupid error on my taxes and now have to file an amended return.

Quote
a corollary to that question is : why does Artiste seem to need to believe that Ennis did not have "sex" with Cassie?  ???

I don't know if that's exactly a corollary. Maybe Artiste is doing his taxes, too? In any case, I've been wondering that same thing myself.

Now a corollary to YOUR question is, why do you put the word "sex" in quotation marks?

 ???



Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #96 on: April 11, 2008, 06:25:34 pm »

 It's because I'm doing my taxes and I come to BetterMost while I'm waiting for forms to print out and things like that, and when I click "show new replies to your posts" this thread keeps popping up, and it's one of the few that do, so while I'm here I pound out a post to pass the time and relieve the stress I'm feeling over the fact that I made a stupid error on my taxes and now have to file an amended return.

great, then I can interest you in joining me in supporting the "fair tax"? abolish our homegrown American Gestapo, the IRS. everyone, rich, middle and poor should pay federal taxes at the same rate, based upon consumption.

the quote marks are in response to what I saw as Artiste's equivocal definition of what he meant by sex between Cassie and Ennis. That line of questioning, my journalist friend,  might offer some pay dirt on why Artiste persists in this line of opinion. just a thought.


Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #97 on: April 11, 2008, 07:29:16 pm »
Good posts you all too!!

May I note:

I do  not think that Ennis had continuous sex with Cassie. Maybe a bit, but I tend to even doubt that too  !!

The expression that Ennis uses: putting the blocks, to me, is the opposite of what you think!!

And one must ardently remember WHY did Ennis, after coming down with Jack, from the Brokeback Mountain, why he YELLED at Jack when Jack came back to see him in that shed !!
Etc. !!

Au revoir,
hugs!   My trail is different from yours, and so was Ennis'... too !!

Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #98 on: April 11, 2008, 08:16:32 pm »
May I note:

I do  not think that Ennis had continuous sex with Cassie. Maybe a bit, but I tend to even doubt that too  !!

I should hope not! Five years of continuous sex and the poor boy would be worn out!  :P Might explain why he kept sending Jack away though - he was just plain exhausted!  :laugh: (sorry, I've got my 'silly head' on)

Quote

And one must ardently remember WHY did Ennis, after coming down with Jack, from the Brokeback Mountain, why he YELLED at Jack when Jack came back to see him in that shed !!

You mean after they leave Aguirre's yard when they come down from the mountain? That wasn't Jack - that was just some random cowboy wandering past.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #99 on: April 11, 2008, 08:18:41 pm »
I should hope not! Five years of continuous sex and the poor boy would be worn out!  :P

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #100 on: April 11, 2008, 08:34:39 pm »
I don't know why I keep coming to this thread and feeling compelled to answer the same question over and over again.

Well I'm not sure what my excuse is, apart from the "keeps popping up on the new posts list" one - I'm not doing tax returns at the moment (though it has just occurred to me that I've usually had some sort of communication from them by now about tax credits, which is almost as bad  :-\), though I can imagine your IRS is very much like our 'Inland Revenue' and tax returns are very nearly top of my list of things to hate doing, probably topped only by going to the dentist. Yeah, I'll vote for the "abolish our homegrown American Gestapo" campaign if you'll vote for my new political party "BAIR-Y" - that's "Brokies Against Inland Revenue - Yee-haw!"  ;D

....I am though stuck in a kind of love-hate relationship with an assignment for a course I'm doing - "serious me" knows if I don't get stuck into it now and get on with the damned thing I'll be racing around like a headless chicken at the last minute and working into the early hours of the morning the day it's due in to get it finished, but "silly me" says, "What the hell! It usually works better at the last minute anyhow..."...and of course being at Bettermost is much more fun than answering questions on the design of computer applications... :)


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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #101 on: April 11, 2008, 08:57:26 pm »
I should hope not! Five years of continuous sex and the poor boy would be worn out!  :P Might explain why he kept sending Jack away though - he was just plain exhausted!  :laugh: (sorry, I've got my 'silly head' on)


 :laugh: :laugh:  :-*

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Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #102 on: April 11, 2008, 09:29:13 pm »
Funny! about sex, that much!
..........
Serious note:

Ennis did yelled at Jack, when Jack turned around and saw Ennis in that shed.
Ennis was sick, and told Jack: What are you looking at?
......

Wasn't that it?

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #103 on: April 11, 2008, 09:58:02 pm »

Hi Artiste,

Is this the scene you mean?

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/4230159-b81.jpg" border="0" />

This man with the black hat is a passerby, not Jack.  Jack has already driven away.

This is the first (and most direct) instance of Ennis being "haunted" by a man with a black hat in the background of a scene... that happens to him throughout the film.  We see lots of men with black hats in the background of scenes where Ennis is missing Jack... and in this case he's missing Jack so much that he's making himself sick. 

Also, with Jack you'll notice he's often surrounded by men (often in the background of scenes, etc.) who are wearing white or pale-colored hats.

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #104 on: April 11, 2008, 10:03:56 pm »

Oooo, this give me a chance to post one of my favorite "black-hat-in-the-background" moments... because it pertains to Ennis meeting Cassie.  You'll see that in the background there's often a man with a black hat positioned directly in between Ennis and Cassie.  This is almost a visual clue to the viewer that Jack will always be the obstacle in the middle of the relationship between Ennis and Cassie... there from the very beginning.

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/4180969-162.jpg" border="0" />

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/4180970-9bc.jpg" border="0" />

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Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #105 on: April 11, 2008, 10:13:51 pm »
Thanks atz!

You say:
  This man with the black hat is a passerby, not Jack.  Jack has already driven away.

.........

Really?

Your pulling my leg?


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #106 on: April 12, 2008, 01:15:29 am »
Thanks atz!

You say:
  This man with the black hat is a passerby, not Jack.  Jack has already driven away.

.........

Really?

Your pulling my leg?

No, Artiste, she is not. The guy who peers into the alley while Ennis is retching is an anonymous passerby -- not Jack.


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #107 on: April 12, 2008, 11:39:37 am »
One important thing to recognize here... is that Ennis is crying and making himself sick because he already misses Jack so much.  Artiste, this is Ennis's strong reaction to being separated from Jack at this initial stage right after Jack leaves the scene.  In a way it's very romantic to witness the level of Ennis's strong emotions about Jack here.  We know from Proulx's story and from story-Ennis's own comments that the reason he got sick here was regret and missing Jack or not wanting to be separated from Jack.

If Jack had come upon this scene of Ennis crying and getting sick... well, I think the story would have taken a much, much different turn. It's sort of interesting to imagine how things might have been different (it might be a good starting point for a fanfic story). 

But, in the context of the movie, Jack never knows about this strong, physical reaction that Ennis has regarding Jack's departure.


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Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #108 on: April 12, 2008, 11:47:14 am »
Wpw Atz:

  One important thing to recognize here... is that Ennis is crying and making himself sick because he already misses Jack so much.  Artiste, this is Ennis's strong reaction to being separated from Jack at this initial stage right after Jack leaves the scene.  In a way it's very romantic to witness the level of Ennis's strong emotions about Jack here.  We know from Proulx's story and from story-Ennis's own comments that the reason he got sick here was regret and missing Jack or not wanting to be separated from Jack.
 

.............

Wow... wow!!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #109 on: April 12, 2008, 11:50:08 am »
Merci atz!

You say:
One important thing to recognize here... is that Ennis is crying and making himself sick because he already misses Jack so much.
 


.........

Atz, may I totally agree with you there!

So, why do you think that I accentuate this with Cassie?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #110 on: April 12, 2008, 02:51:05 pm »
So, why do you think that I accentuate this with Cassie?

Artiste, you're a sweetie, but you really have got too much time on your hands and you're not working hard enough on your paintings if you've got time to be obssessing over Cassie. ;)

If Jack had come upon this scene of Ennis crying and getting sick... well, I think the story would have taken a much, much different turn. It's sort of interesting to imagine how things might have been different (it might be a good starting point for a fanfic story). 

I've been thinking that very same thing myself and as usual my mind's been wandering to possibilities, and one of these days I've told myself I will do something about it, but I really must get the one I'm working on now done, which I'll never do at this rate if I keep on finding myself back here at BetterMost posting away merrily!  :laugh:


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Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #111 on: April 12, 2008, 08:01:47 pm »
Merci Bliss!

Your saying:
Artiste, you're a sweetie, but you really have got too much time on your hands and you're not working hard enough on your paintings if you've got time to be obssessing over Cassie.
 


.....

Bliss, to that may I say likewise  ?? !! WE are having fun, you and I, and others; and that's great!!

Do you know that a master artist like I am, do obssess over Cassie, before creating a painting on canvas, or another Marylin Monroe as script for her or scenes of a movie ??  (And that I have to cry like a baby maybe before that is mastered by moi, yes me for placing my emotions and head on canvasses to be created!! As in life and death situations, drama as in Annie's story, as in Cassie in the BM movie... and as Ennis and Jack, etc., are with her, and her with them !! ) Is Cassie a handful or a singular ??

Did Cassie want unconditional love ?? With Ennis ?? With herself ??

...........

You focus maybe:

I am alert and interested in everything around me; therefore, in Cassie too, plus Ennis and others !!  ??

They are like real persons to me. It is a work in progress with you and others, to try to understand such Cassies (look at the plural).

Would her love and commitment for Ennis be miraculous ?? Ennis love for Cassie be nothing short of miraculous for Cassie ?? What possible difficulties down the road before Ennis stops the relationship or friendship  !!

Are they both heroes ?? Humility ?

After or before Ennis stops the friendship with Cassie, would she find out that he likes or loves a man; and, therefore, she becomes homophobic ??

WE all enjoy Cassie  !! It is hard and diifcult for us to think otherwise!!  ??  Is this like a trap for us in the movie?

You see, much can be said yet... au revoir,
hugs!  Clue: Does Cassie makes us look ahead  ?? !!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #112 on: April 13, 2008, 09:14:40 pm »

Artiste, you're a sweetie, but you really have got too much time on your hands and you're not working hard enough on your paintings if you've got time to be obssessing over Cassie. ;)


 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #113 on: April 13, 2008, 09:17:02 pm »
Funny!

Now, re-read what I added please... to ponder about that, at least for one line or word !! ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #114 on: April 13, 2008, 09:56:35 pm »
I don't share your obsession over Cassie and Ennis. But if you create a work of art covering their relationship, I look forward to seeing it one day.  :)

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #115 on: April 13, 2008, 10:33:30 pm »
Smiles to you !!

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #116 on: May 01, 2008, 06:22:34 pm »
I miss Cassie, and I wonder why?

Do you too wonder why a gay man, like I am, miss cassie ??


Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2008, 11:48:47 am »
This means more... that we can think about ?

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #118 on: June 15, 2008, 09:36:58 am »
In certain ways, was Cassie homophobic ?

Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #119 on: June 15, 2008, 03:54:03 pm »
No.


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Offline jstephens9

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #120 on: June 16, 2008, 03:13:54 pm »
I don't think Cassie would know what that word meant  ;D She is probably about my least favorite character in the movie. She also does not seem to be too bright  ;)

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #121 on: June 16, 2008, 03:17:26 pm »
Cassie did OK by finding Carl, he was kinda hunky in a rangy good old boy way!

Offline jstephens9

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #122 on: June 16, 2008, 03:18:43 pm »
Maybe he enjoyed rubbing her feet  :laugh:

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #123 on: June 16, 2008, 03:21:25 pm »
I don't think Cassie would know what that word meant  ;D She is probably about my least favorite character in the movie. She also does not seem to be too bright  ;)

I'm the opposite here... I think Cassie is a warm, fun person who doesn't understand the situation that she's gotten herself into with Ennis.  But, I don't really see anything particularly negative in her character.

I think Ennis treated her terribly by essentially using her to bolster his public image and leading her on... and that wins her a lot of sympathy in my book.



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Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #124 on: June 16, 2008, 03:25:25 pm »
I'm the opposite here... I think Cassie is a warm, fun person who doesn't understand the situation that she's gotten herself into with Ennis.  But, I don't really see anything particularly negative in her character.

I think Ennis treated her terribly by essentially using her to bolster his public image and leading her on... and that wins her a lot of sympathy in my book.





agreed about the comment concerning Ennis using Cassie as a "beard", I also have similar feelings about Ennis's using Alma in a similar fashion, although one can give him some benefit of the doubt in 1963 at age 19 for being confused, by the time he met Cassie he was clearly trying to use her for cover.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #125 on: June 16, 2008, 03:36:22 pm »
agreed about the comment concerning Ennis using Cassie as a "beard", I also have similar feelings about Ennis's using Alma in a similar fashion, although one can give him some benefit of the doubt in 1963 at age 19 for being confused, by the time he met Cassie he was clearly trying to use her for cover.

Agreed.

I've noticed that many people tend not to like the characters who get romantically involved with Jack or Ennis -- Alma, Lureen, Cassie, Randall -- perhaps because they pose a threat to the relationship between Jack and Ennis. But none of them is deliberately trying to hurt anyone, or get hurt (with the semi-exception of Randall, I guess, since he's deliberately proposing that Jack cheat on his wife).


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #126 on: June 16, 2008, 04:36:36 pm »
Agreed.

I've noticed that many people tend not to like the characters who get romantically involved with Jack or Ennis -- Alma, Lureen, Cassie, Randall -- perhaps because they pose a threat to the relationship between Jack and Ennis. But none of them is deliberately trying to hurt anyone, or get hurt (with the semi-exception of Randall, I guess, since he's deliberately proposing that Jack cheat on his wife).



I see a lot of gray areas in this topic. OK, I am somewhat forgiving of Ennis in 1963 in marrying Alma, he was very confused and probably thought that the confusion would pass if he assumed the role of a straight husband to Alma. But, my giving Ennis any slack diminishes exponentially over time, esp after he has been married to Alma for a decade. When Alma got her divorce, I said "You go girl!" Ennis by then wasn't going to work out as a good provider for the family. But, when it comes to Cassie, Ennis had enough self knowledge as a man in his late 30's to not lead Cassie on. And, clearly he did, or she would not have shown the emotional torment when they met at the bus stop diner. So, I fault Ennis for leading her on.

I know y'all have heard me say it before, I really think that the Twist/Newsome marriage was one of mostly convenience. Lureen went into the marriage with at least half open eyes that Jack wasn't going to be no "prince charming", but more importantly to her that he would be easy to control, so if Jack played loose with the truth about his orientation - then I don't give him much grief. Randall and Lashawn, well, maybe Randall was fooling Lashawn, and then maybe not. Lashawn sure had a head of steam about how incompetent Randall was and how disappointed she was with life in Childress. Lots of hostility there!  And I look at Lashawn, she has a degree from SMU, good tridelt connections and a work history with Neiman's, she can dump Randall anytime and move back to N Dallas - where she can spend her paycheck on clothes and accessories. So, I don't fault Randall too much, he probably deserved a break from LaShawn's motor mouth, and needed the peace and quiet of Jack's harmonica playing in the crappie house on Lake Kemp (just kidding about the harmonica).

In the end the only lasting threat to Ennis and Jack's romance was Ennis and to a smaller degree Jack. Ennis hung on to his denial until the bitter scene in Jack's closet in OMT's house. And, Jack, well he could have grabbed a hold of LD offer of a "golden parachute" out of Lureen's life and started over nearer to Ennis, but he didn't, he chose his life at that point. 

Lesson:  never waste opportunities, be bold, "seize the day" - it may not come again.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #127 on: June 16, 2008, 04:49:36 pm »

Hey Brokeplex (it's so great to see you posing more again :) )!

Yes, I tend to agree with the way you describe things.  I do think there are lots of "gray areas" in all the relationships.  Even between Jack and Ennis there are a lot of questionnable decisions and each cowboy certainly hides things from the other, etc.  There are good and bad qualities to every instance and every character in BBM as far as I'm concerned.

And, I also cut Ennis more slack when he's younger.  By the time Cassie comes along, he really is far too self-aware to really believe that he could offer Cassie a real relationship.  His decision to get involved with another woman and lead her on for 4 or 5 years is pretty serious.  He even introduces her to his child (at least Junior... and probably Jenny too), which is often a big step in a relationship... and I'm guessing Cassie would see it that way.  He really is playing with her expectations to a degree that's not fair, I think (as much as I love Ennis).

I think Crayons is spot on... a lot of us don't like the idea of anything interfering with the relationship we're all cheering for (the Jack and Ennis relationship).  Any of the other characters that they get involved with romantically tend to irritate folks to one degree or another.  But, it really isn't the other characters' fault usually.  I don't even think Cassie ever knows that Jack exists.  She has no idea (probably) that she's imposing on another relationship that Ennis is involved in.  As far as she knows, Ennis is a lonely, single/divorced father who's free and clear for dating.






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Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #128 on: June 16, 2008, 05:10:36 pm »
Yes, Cassie is more than OK, she is great, and for a straight man like Carl, she was a winner. Too bad she was pining for the unattainable, namely Ennis. But then isn't that sometimes human nature to want what we can't have. Maybe subconsciously, Cassie knew that Ennis was unobtainable. I'm sure that Ennis gave a lot of visual clues that gay men know as "gaydar" pings, Cassie just couldn't consciously compute that into meaningful knowledge.  I know a few gay men who pine away for a straight man that they just can't have, so maybe there are some straight women who want the unobtainable in a gay man. just some thoughts.

Thanks for the your good karma wishes on my posting, I can't resist posting about the film and the ss, it is just too interesting. And while I am back in town before I go out on the campaign again, I have all this time to sit at the computer, besides, today I am nursing a tiresome summer cold! go away summer cold!  ;D

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #129 on: June 16, 2008, 05:49:37 pm »
I'm sure that Ennis gave a lot of visual clues that gay men know as "gaydar" pings, Cassie just couldn't consciously compute that into meaningful knowledge.

After five years of dating, she may even have picked up some clues that were more than visual!  ;)

Quote
Thanks for the your good karma wishes on my posting, I can't resist posting about the film and the ss, it is just too interesting.

It's always nice to see your contributions to the discussions.

Quote
And while I am back in town before I go out on the campaign again, I have all this time to sit at the computer, besides, today I am nursing a tiresome summer cold! go away summer cold!  ;D

Hope you feel better soon!  :)


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #130 on: June 17, 2008, 12:57:43 pm »
After five years of dating, she may even have picked up some clues that were more than visual!  ;)

It's always nice to see your contributions to the discussions.

Hope you feel better soon!  :)



good point about the obviously intelligent Cassie picking up on the reality of Ennis's life. but, if she consciously understood that Ennis played in a different ball park, why was she so persistant with him and why was she then so distraught when he dumped her?

thanks for your good wishes, I took the meds the doctor gave me and I already feel much better !

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #131 on: June 17, 2008, 01:17:12 pm »


I think it's very hard to know how much Cassie ever suspected about Ennis.  Mainly I think she's just baffled by the whole situation.  And, she clearly seems to care deeply for Ennis during her final bus stop encounter with him.  Especially in this scene, confusion feels like the dominant expression coming from Cassie... she even says "I don't get you...".


After five years of dating, she may even have picked up some clues that were more than visual!  ;)


K, are you implying something about the way Ennis may treat her in bed (along the lines of what happens with Alma)?  Or, are there other clues that you're hinting at here? 

I keep coming back to the length of time that Cassie hangs on and the fact that she seems to feel like their relationship is significant enough for her to even contemplate "settling down" with Ennis.  I really don't know if Cassie was really picking up any clues about Ennis's sexuality... I don't know if that would be on her radar screen as something to consider.


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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #132 on: June 17, 2008, 01:47:22 pm »
K, are you implying something about the way Ennis may treat her in bed (along the lines of what happens with Alma)?  Or, are there other clues that you're hinting at here?

Yes, I was alluding to their sex life. I don't know if Ennis necessarily attempted to replicate his experiences with Jack, the way he did with Alma -- a scene that, after all, occurred before Jack came back into Ennis' life. But Ennis didn't seem very enthusiastic about the whole business, and you'd think Cassie might have noticed that he wasn't exactly a dynamo.

Like you guys, though, I don't think she quite put two and two together. I don't think Ennis would set Cassie's gaydar off in general. He probably wouldn't strike her as having the characteristics she would associate with homosexuality. Although Cassie is intelligent I doubt that, given her environment and culture, her gaydar is very fine tuned anyway.


Offline jstephens9

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #133 on: June 17, 2008, 02:19:28 pm »
I thought she was beyond pushy with Ennis. She would have run me off even I were straight.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #134 on: June 17, 2008, 03:26:59 pm »
I thought she was beyond pushy with Ennis. She would have run me off even I were straight.

See, from my perspective Cassie is the most attractive of all the female characters (both physically and in terms of what I perceive to be a warm personality).  So, maybe I'm a little biased on this topic.  I like Lureen, but I don't find her all that attractive (probably because I'm somewhat similar to her in terms of personality/ being a work-a-holic).

Anyway, the "pushy" issue is interesting... She's definitely persistent but so is Jack.  I wonder how we see Cassie's "pushy-ness" vs. Jack's "pushy-ness".  I think Ennis is the type of person who would always need the other person to make the first move and to draw him out of his shell.

It really makes me curious about how he got together with Alma (I think this question has been pondered before elsewhere).

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #135 on: June 18, 2008, 01:42:20 pm »
I agree with brokeplex's take on the dynamic between Ennis and Cassie, and also Amanda's observation that she is a warm and appealing character. It is hard to overestimate the degree of desperation many young Wyoming women must have in finding a suitable mate in that sometimes desolate region. I don't doubt there are Cassies out there who would be fine with a gay husband as long as he was discreet and went through the motions of being hetero every once in a while. There are worse things in life than being married to a person who is oriented differently than you! There are lots of men prone to violence, drug or alcohol addiction, gambling, religious zealotry, laziness, sports addiction...the list can go on and on!!

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Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #136 on: June 18, 2008, 02:28:35 pm »
I agree with brokeplex's take on the dynamic between Ennis and Cassie, and also Amanda's observation that she is a warm and appealing character. It is hard to overestimate the degree of desperation many young Wyoming women must have in finding a suitable mate in that sometimes desolate region. I don't doubt there are Cassies out there who would be fine with a gay husband as long as he was discreet and went through the motions of being hetero every once in a while. There are worse things in life than being married to a person who is oriented differently than you! There are lots of men prone to violence, drug or alcohol addiction, gambling, religious zealotry, laziness, sports addiction...the list can go on and on!!



I am curious about your opinion about something that I read about the early days of WY settlement. I read that in the early days before large scale settlement, the gender ratios were heavily biased in favor of men, men were at the time more likely to be able to brave the long trek to the west (hostile American Indian tribes, desert heat, mountain cold, too much or too little water)

So, that being the case, wouldn't women in the early days of WY have had their pick of the best men available?

And I am wondering, if this ethos has carried forward thru time to the 20th and 21st centuries? After all, WY was the first state to grant women the right to vote in ALL elections, decades before some of the more settled areas back east. Doesn't that imply that women in WY wielded more power at all levels than their counterparts back East?

I am of the opinion that a very attractive personable woman like Cassie could have had her pick of men, and wouldn't have had to settle for a closeted man. It seems to me that Cassie was deliberately picking Ennis for her personal reasons (of course love is always personal), in spite of his taciturn and somewhat boorish nature. This makes Cassie one of the most interesting characters to me. I want to know, why she picked Ennis and tried so hard to stick with him, as I feel she could have her pick of lots of other men, younger, handsomer, certainly more prosperous and more hetero!

Offline Fran

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #137 on: June 18, 2008, 02:44:46 pm »
I am of the opinion that a very attractive personable woman like Cassie could have had her pick of men, and wouldn't have had to settle for a closeted man. It seems to me that Cassie was deliberately picking Ennis for her personal reasons (of course love is always personal), in spite of his taciturn and somewhat boorish nature. This makes Cassie one of the most interesting characters to me. I want to know, why she picked Ennis and tried so hard to stick with him, as I feel she could have her pick of lots of other men, younger, handsomer, certainly more prosperous and more hetero!

But remember:

"Ennis said he'd been putting the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit, but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want."

It seems Cassie had some issues.  With small towns being what they are and nothing a secret for long, maybe Cassie had worked her way through the more eligible guys in town and Ennis was her last hope... well, until Carl appeared.





Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #138 on: June 19, 2008, 06:43:35 pm »
Merci to all of you ! At last, some replies or thoughts !!


I find it surprising that many of you think that Ennis used Cassie as a cover for being gay or whatever he is there and then !

Can some of you think that Cassie uses Ennis, as for her cover ?

May I dare ask ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #139 on: June 22, 2008, 10:13:53 am »
Merci to all of you !!!

If Cassie dated Ennis that long, she can NOT be that clueless about him ?

She must have felt something... not nescessarally being homophobic, but thought of Ennis being gay or bi ??

Au revoir,
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Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #140 on: June 22, 2008, 10:20:19 am »
But remember:

"Ennis said he'd been putting the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit, but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want."

It seems Cassie had some issues.  With small towns being what they are and nothing a secret for long, maybe Cassie had worked her way through the more eligible guys in town and Ennis was her last hope... well, until Carl appeared.

That's a good point. It seems obvious from Cassie's conversation with Alma Jnr when she asks her if she thinks her daddy's the settling down type (and the answer seems to be that he is, but not with her), that Cassie's disappointed both by Ennis's reactions to their relationship and lack of interest in settling down, but at the same time I've always had the impression with Cassie that she feels hemmed in by a small town like Riverton and that she's looking for a way out. That aspect doesn't quite seem to gel though with her desperation to hang on to Ennis.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #141 on: June 22, 2008, 10:26:08 am »
Merci bliss !

If Cassie ask Jr. (Ennis' daughter) if her father is the    the settling down type         ,
can be be thought too that she (Cassie) thinks already that Ennis is gay or bi ??

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Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #142 on: June 22, 2008, 07:11:00 pm »
If Cassie ask Jr. (Ennis' daughter) if her father is the    the settling down type         ,
can be be thought too that she (Cassie) thinks already that Ennis is gay or bi ??

No, I don't think she does. I don't think she can figure out Ennis at all, which is what prompts her conversation with Alma Jr. I think maybe she thinks Jr. might have some insight into her father's reluctance to make a commitment, though asking his teenage daughter's probably not gonna get her the answers she wants.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #143 on: June 22, 2008, 08:18:12 pm »
Merci Bliiss !

But Cassie must have felt, at least, that Ennis was bi ?

Au revoir,
hugs!