Author Topic: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?  (Read 53706 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2008, 08:52:42 pm »
I agree with most of what you say, Brokeplex ( :D!!) except this:

He wanted sex from Cassie,

I don't think sex had anything to do with why he stuck around with Cassie for so long. In fact, imagining them having sex, I picture him being about as eager as he was with Alma -- i.e., he has to force himself to feign enthusiasm.

I think Cassie presented herself at an opportune time. It probably didn't happen immediately after Thanksgiving or his subsequent camping trip with Jack, but in the movie the events come in that order, and I think we're intended to assume that he's still worried about what people on the pavement think.

Then Cassie comes along, dragging him onto the dance floor, plunking her feet in his lap, talking about marriage -- a perfect cover. He tends to be pretty passive in relationships, but it works out for him, too. They could have gone on for decades if Jack hadn't forced him to face up to the lie he was living.

Oh, the one other area where I would disagree with you is his treatment of Alma. His breakup with Cassie was undeniably cruel, and his infidelity to Alma isn't really excusable. But I think their marriage dissolved for a multitude of reasons, and Alma wasn't without 'blame."

Do we know if Ennis had sex with Cassie?

What proof?

Well, I guess all the proof we have is that 1) he said so to Jack and 2) Cassie probably wouldn't have stuck around for five years otherwise. She wouldn't have to say, "I don't get you, Ennis Del Mar," because she probably would have figured him out long before that.


« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 10:05:28 am by whysoserious? »

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2008, 08:55:39 pm »
Wow, wow !!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2008, 09:04:43 pm »
Wow, may I disagree or simply try to take another light on things:

Cassie goes after Ennis!! Let's not forget that... she drags him on, even if Ennis does NOT want to start nor continue a relationship!!

It is likely obvious that Ennis does not go OFTEN with Cassie, maybe so?? But Cassie persists and persists... she is the one making contacts !! (Seems to me that is what Ennis says to Jack!! ??)

These are two things that I find Eng and/or the ss... is/are anti-gay:
Alma and Cassie wait way, way , way too long, too long to break realtionships?? That is NOT natural !! WE do NOT see that in our society!

More later...

au revoir,
hugs!

Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2008, 11:08:44 am »
Alma and Cassie wait way, way , way too long, too long to break realtionships?? That is NOT natural !! WE do NOT see that in our society!

It happens all the time, and people keep trying to make relationships work that clearly aren't working for any number of reasons, sometimes for many years, until something happens that makes them realise that the situation is intolerable.

It is likely obvious that Ennis does not go OFTEN with Cassie, maybe so?? But Cassie persists and persists... she is the one making contacts !!

The same could be said of Jack. It's Jack who made the first move on the mountain, Jack who instigated the contact at the 4 year reunion, Jack who keeps trying to persuade Ennis of the "sweet life" they could have, Jack who's bitching about not meeting up more often, when Ennis has work commitments...

The one thing that comes through from reading this thread through is not that Cassie's homophobic (I see no evidence or proof of that), but that Ennis is totally emotionally crippled. He doesn't know how to communicate with anyone, and doesn't understand, or know how to articulate his feelings, and as a consequence treats almost everyone in his life appallingly, but I do feel he's more to be pitied than blamed. He has so many chances in his life, but he misses them all.

Probably Jack comes the closest to understanding Ennis and trying to bring him out of himself, but ultimately he pushes Jack away too. He never understands or knows how to communicate with Alma or Cassie, or even his daughters (from the scene at the end of the film he still thinks Alma Jnr's dating a boyfriend she split up with two years before, and he never really understands Jack either, and that's the tragedy, because Jack's probably the one person who has the power to help Ennis change for the better, but ultimately Ennis's stubbornness is too strong.

Can we blame Ennis for how he treats those who love him, all the way through his life? Yes, I guess on one level we can, and particularly if we presume that Ennis is aware of his behaviour. On another level though I don't think he is aware of his behaviour. I've lived with a man who finds it impossible to communicate with anyone - he doesn't know the words to say, and finds interacting in a social situation or conversation a huge trial, and will retreat into silence if pushed into being sociable. A man whose mind is so closed that he doesn't fully appreciate his own feelings, not knowing how to put them into words or actions, let alone be able to empathise with anyone else and understand about the effect his words and actions might have on them. I struggled for so long to try and 'read' him and understand is moods and his inappropriate reactions, and in the end gave up because I simply didn't have enough emotional energy for both of us. Sound like a brown eyed cowboy from Wyoming we know..?


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2008, 11:36:18 am »
Thanks very much Bliss!

Like other members, your post(s) say much, indeed!!  And I am very grateful for that! It makes me think as well as be sentimental and emotional (and that is a good thing), as I learn everyday about life !!

May I say:
You talk about Alma, Cassie, Jack, Ennis... with reason and feeling!! And that is great !!

Can we all note that Ennis is reasoning and also using more his emotions, and when he combines that, he is becoming more clear... but that takes much, much, much time than Jack, Alma, Cassie tried as times !! ?? Does that make sense Bliss and all of you too on Bettermost/and guests ?

I wondered why Cassie became a player here in the BM movie, and I thought that that was maybe because Eng and the ss writer(s) (and/or those connected doing this film) was maybe anti-gay by stressing this charactor: Cassie !!- That as so, because it deminishes Ennis as a good sport, as well as Jack too in some ways !! You understand?

Didn't Annie accentuate Ennis and Jack as good sports in her book ?? But he BM movie advances otherwise ??

Anyway, maybe by adding Cassie now in the BM movie, then we come to understand that Ennis (a gay or bi man of good charactor) is not the only one that needs helps to evolve but that straights (as in heterosexuals) too need help, yes as well to understand gay or bi life ?? Or is the BM movie only stressing being gay or bi is no good, and that the only importance is being straight or acting like that no matter of you are gay or bi ??

Puzzling is it ??

Awaiting your thoughts,
au revoir,
hugs!

Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2008, 01:35:12 pm »
Can we all note that Ennis is reasoning and also using more his emotions, and when he combines that, he is becoming more clear... but that takes much, much, much time than Jack, Alma, Cassie tried as times !! ?? Does that make sense Bliss and all of you too on Bettermost/and guests ?

I think that they all probably gave up on him him in their own ways, and maybe with more time he may have learned to deal with his emotions better, but they grew tired of waiting for him, and tired of expending all that emotional energy on him for very little return. There is a sign though at the end of the film that maybe he's learning, and maybe he's realised with Jack's death that he has to change, and it makes him realise that he can't hide from his emotions. At the end he changes his mind about working so that he can go to Alma Jnr's wedding, and he sits and drinks with her. It's still awkward, and he still doesn't really know what to say, but he's trying.

I wondered why Cassie became a player here in the BM movie, and I thought that that was maybe because Eng and the ss writer(s) (and/or those connected doing this film) was maybe anti-gay by stressing this charactor: Cassie !!- That as so, because it deminishes Ennis as a good sport, as well as Jack too in some ways !! You understand?

Didn't Annie accentuate Ennis and Jack as good sports in her book ?? But he BM movie advances otherwise ??

Anyway, maybe by adding Cassie now in the BM movie, then we come to understand that Ennis (a gay or bi man of good charactor) is not the only one that needs helps to evolve but that straights (as in heterosexuals) too need help, yes as well to understand gay or bi life ?? Or is the BM movie only stressing being gay or bi is no good, and that the only importance is being straight or acting like that no matter of you are gay or bi ??


I don't think it's that at all. Cassie is in the SS, but in style the SS is necessarily sparse. The whole thing's only 28 pages, and even the time on Brokeback is only 8 pages, but the whole story covers 20 years in Ennis's life. To have enough material for the film they had to "invent" scenes and "fill in the gaps". Ennis telling Jack about Cassie is in the SS, but in the film it wouldn't make sense to show Ennis going from the divorce scene to the final camping trip with Jack where he talks about Cassie with nothing inbetween. From the divorce to the camping trip is quite a stretch of time, and there had to be some explanation.

Cassie's inclusion in both the SS and the film has nothing to do with being anti-gay, but just shows the complexity of Ennis's life. As a post-divorced single man he would have been expected at that time to be at least dating someone, if not married again. Maybe he was seeing Cassie as that was expected of him, and her having made the first move made it easier for him to start the relationship. Maybe he did feel something for her - who knows?! Ennis never was much the talking kind!   

I don't think the film says anything about heterosexuals needing help to understand gay or bi life (at least in terms of Cassie because we've no evidence she even knew of the other part of Ennis's life). The fact that Ennis had a relationship with Cassie, whether as a cover or not, is just one way of showing that especially at that time, in that society, Ennis didn't have an option, or didn't feel he had any option but to "act straight", and that's something unfortunately that has happened for a long time, and continues to happen, but the central thread throughout both the SS and the film is Jack and Ennis, and it is essentially their story. There's certainly nothing anti-gay about the film that I can see.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2008, 02:00:20 pm »
Merci Bliss!

I have read too quickly since I must return to create my paintings, and I assure that that I will re-read it (your post) many times, since I find it so marvelous!

For now, the idea that comes to my mind before I forget it, is that Ennis had also TO THINK ABOUT protecting his OWN Life ? Plus that of OTHERS too ??

But no one ponders about that ? And neither does Cassie?

Au revoir,
hugs! P.S. If I forget, please remind me!

Offline BlissC

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2008, 03:17:36 pm »
For now, the idea that comes to my mind before I forget it, is that Ennis had also TO THINK ABOUT protecting his OWN Life ? Plus that of OTHERS too ??

That's a good point, and one that probably had great bearing on why his emotions are so repressed. The murder scene he witnessed as a child had a huge impact on him, and the tire irons are a constant fear throughout his life. He first tells Jack about it up on the mountain at the start of the story, but the last lines of the SS are very telling also because in his dreams he sees the tire irons, and how Annie portrays that in so few words - "but the can of beans with the spoon handle jutting out and balanced on the log was there as well, in cartoon shape and lurid colours that gave the dreams a flavour of comic obscenity. The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron" - makes you see that dream. The tire irons and Jack both haunt him, and I think maybe it's only with those last few lines that the full impact of fear on Ennis's life and how he had to hide his relationship with Jack really becomes clear. Ennis undoubtedly did have a problem with expressing his emotions and communicating with people, and he hurt a lot of people in the process, but I think that fear that was a constant in his life also played a a large part in him repressing so much about himself.

Maybe part of it with Cassie (and maybe Alma also to a certain extent) was that he feared getting too close, not only because allowing himself to get too close would mean opening himself up to her, but because that might also mean that there was a danger she would find out about his secret life with Jack, and feared her reaction, and who she might tell. If his secret was to come out...back to the fear of the tire irons again.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2008, 03:55:25 pm »
For the original subject:

Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?

We have no way to tell.


Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2008, 03:55:42 pm »
Merci encore Bliss!

Reading your post makes me think of something:
the two females that have a relationship with Ennis know a lot of people !! Really a lot like all (or nearly so) in those places where Ennis lives !! Ennis must have felt that as a danger  !! ??

If Ennis breaks up with them (Alma and Cassie), then it could be very dangerous for him !!
Both could tell that Ennis is gay or bi... to other persons, right ?? Easily !!

Too easily so ?? As revenge?? Or for other reasons, each woman could damage not ONLY Ennis reputation, but very well his PHYSICAL life... as we saw that that tough old bird of the two that he was murdered because he was gay... was horrid thing that had happenned to him since his sex was taken away... destroyed from that body so death occurs !!

Such murders of gay men still happen in our societies, unfortunately, just because they are gay men !! The case of Sheppard is one !! And many murderers get away with it - (I know of one in my last city who never spent a day in jail since the jury believed him and felt sorry for the murderer... of all things !!), or a murderer just spends few hours in prisons! But the dead can not talk... and neither can his relatives nor loves nor others talk to him now !!

I fear nearly daily getting to be discovered as a gay man, and getting murdered because of that orientation !!
I have lost jobs, reputations, health, a house and property, because I am a gay man in our democratic societies !! And I fear the islamics and other such radicals coming into our lands, since many would be proud to murder a gay man !!

So Ennis  fears and much more, since even for his life !!

Alma sure ruins Ennis's reputation at that Thanksgiving dinner, right ??

So what happened after THAT Alma outcry ? Did Ennis feel better ??

Wondering what you think... and others too,
au revoir,
hugs!!