TOTW 12/08: What's your take on the detailed nature descriptions in the SS?

[Penthesilea]

What do you make of the detailed nature descriptions in the short story?

At some points, Annie Proulx includes very detailed descriptions of nature in her story. I'll give some examples to show what I'm talking about:

„Dawn came glassy orange, stained from below by a gelatinous band of pale green. The sooty bulk of the mountain paled slowly until it was the same color as the smoke from Enniss's breakfast fire. The cold air sweetened, banded pebbles and crumbs of soil cast sudden pencil-long shadows and the rearing lodgepole pines below them massed in slabs of somber malachite.“
(beginning, their first morning on the mountain)


„ The meadow stones glowed white-green and a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk ashes.“
(directly before TS1)


„ ...and they packed in the game and moved off the mountain with the sheep, stones rolling at their heels, purple cloud crowding in from the west and the metal smell of coming snow pressing them on. The mountain boiled with demonic energy, glazed with flickering broken-cloud light, the wind combed the grass and drew from the damaged krummholz and slit rock a bestial drone.“
(coming down the mountain)


„ Years on years they worked their way throught the high meadows and mountain drainages, horse-packing into the Big Horns, Medicine Bows, south end of the Gallatins, Absarokas, Granites, Owl Creeks, the Bridger-Teton Range, the Freezeouts and the Shirleys, Ferrises and the Rattlesnakes, Salt River Range into the Wind Rivers over and again, the Sierra Madres, Gros Ventres, the Washakies, Laramies, but never returning to Brokeback.“


„ In May of 1983 ....“
(All of the first paragraphs of their last meeting contain detailed nature description, from the bitter juniper to the tea-colored river to the meadow protected by a stand of lodgepole. Too much to type here)



Do you like these passages?
Do you just read over them without giving them much thought?
Do you think they are dispensable?
Do you think they add to the feel of the story, to its authencity?
Do you enjoy them for their eloquence, their linguistic artistry?
Do you think they have more meaning than what meets the eye at first sight? Meaning do they add to develop the plot?
Other thoughts?


What do you make of the detailed nature descriptions in the short story?

[Penthesilea]

Ok, I'll go first this week, to get my point across.

My own take on this aspect of Annie Proulx's story has changed quite a bit over the last two years. The first time I read the story was after I had seen the movie and was totally blown away from it (surprise! ). I was intrigued by those characters and their story, and wanted more.

For me the detailed descriptions of nature didn't add to the plot itself (back then), they didn't bring forward the story. An aggravating factor was that English is not my native language and I had to look up the one or other word, especially regarding her nature descriptions. Soon I gave up on doing so and just skimmed through these parts without much interest. I thought they were dispensable.

However, with time I had a closer look at them. I began to like them for their linguistic artistry and since the story is so much a Wyoming story, they add to its authencitiy.

Later even, I asked myself why Annie Proulx had included those details and why. She herself said in interviews, that in a short story every single word has to be right, has to carry meaning, that even the punctuation is important.

With this in mind, I reread the story once again and noticed that these passages seem to correlate with important points of the plot: their first morning together on the mountain (their first time alone);  directly before their first sexual encounter; leaving the mountain; and at the beginning of their last time together.

What is your take on this aspect of the short story?

[myprivatejack]

I can't speak very properly about this topic,because I read the s.s. rather after having seen the movie,and in a Spanish translation; so,although global words are the same,surely some descriptions nuances have been lost in translation,what avoided me to catch all the majesty's that Annie wanted us to feel.However,I suppose that all these descriptions surrounding some key moments of their staying on the mountain,are written so as a way of remarking the quality of "Paradise on Earth" that BBM had for them,both physically and emotionally.And the fact that they described the beauty of the landscape when they spent their first time together as a friends,their first sexual encounter and their last moments together-their last on that summer on BBM and their real last time being Jack alive-.All these coincidences,are only a way to heighten this quality of tragic beauty of the mountain,always in contradiction when the real world they were going to find when they came down of it ; that was more tragical in the case of their last encounter,when this real world was going to be their main enemy,their cage,in comparison with their freedom in BBM,their shelter,their Paradise.Yes,for me it could be a symbolism in the majestic description of Brokeback beauty.

[Front-Ranger]

Thanks so much for getting us to focus on this delightful subject!

My feeling is that Annie wanted to make comparisons and show similarities between the landscapes and the characters. For instance, in the passage you cited:

and they packed in the game and moved off the mountain with the sheep, stones rolling at their heels, purple cloud crowding in from the west and the metal smell of coming snow pressing them on. The mountain boiled with demonic energy, glazed with flickering broken-cloud light, the wind combed the grass and drew from the damaged krummholz and slit rock a bestial drone

see how she talks about the sheep and then mentions the clouds crowding in...you get an image of the clouds mirroring the sheep. The mountain is pictured similarly to the authoritarian masculine characters of Old Man Twist, Aguirre, or Ennis' dad. The wind is anthropomorphized as a kind of shepherd of the earth, combing the grass and eliciting beastly moans.

Annie Proulx has mentioned how she has studied artists and one of them, Charles Russell, often painted a scene of men, horses, and livestock in their earthly struggles mirrored by the sky and clouds above. Ang Lee also took his cue from AP, and included scenery throughout the movie such as a shot of two clouds at sunset, one dark blue and one orange. Obviously they are meant to stand for Jack and Ennis.

[brokeplex]

Dawn came glassy orange, stained from below by a gelatinous band of pale green. The sooty bulk of the mountain paled slowly until it was the same color as the smoke from Enniss's breakfast fire. The cold air sweetened, banded pebbles and crumbs of soil cast sudden pencil-long shadows and the rearing lodgepole pines below them massed in slabs of somber malachite.“

my fav quotation from the ss.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks so much for getting us to focus on this delightful subject!

My feeling is that Annie wanted to make comparisons and show similarities between the landscapes and the characters. For instance, in the passage you cited:

see how she talks about the sheep and then mentions the clouds crowding in...you get an image of the clouds mirroring the sheep. The mountain is pictured similarly to the authoritarian masculine characters of Old Man Twist, Aguirre, or Ennis' dad. The wind is anthropomorphized as a kind of shepherd of the earth, combing the grass and eliciting beastly moans.

Annie Proulx has mentioned how she has studied artists and one of them, Charles Russell, often painted a scene of men, horses, and livestock in their earthly struggles mirrored by the sky and clouds above. Ang Lee also took his cue from AP, and included scenery throughout the movie such as a shot of two clouds at sunset, one dark blue and one orange. Obviously they are meant to stand for Jack and Ennis.

Yes,it can have a similarity with the subject of the colours in both men´s clothes; symbolising the Earth and the Air,the character rooted in his land and the character volatile,changeable,adaptable.

[optom3]

I read the book before seeing the film and the fantastic imagery really allowed my imagination free rein. I was surprised when watching the film,to see how close to what I had imagined the scenery was.This has to stand testament to Proulx's descriptive narrative.
The only problem I had was with the description of Jack in the S.S which was so different from Jack as portrayed by Jake.This is nothing to do with the acting,which is excellent,and everything to do with the vivid description that Proulx gives us.
However onece I had read the story several more times,also watched the film more times than I can remember,Jake and Jack semed to morph into one.Heath and Ennis had always seemed similar,in my head.
The scenic descriptions,whether short and to the point,or more lengthy.always seem to mirror the characters.At the start of the story,the office is described as "choky" in much the way Ennis almost seems to choke on his words.
Later in the story Ennis is described as looking over "a great gulf" at Jack which is akin to the great gulf between the two of them.Jack  "in his dark camp saw Ennis as night fire a red spark" Again it seems that the image fits what Jack is feeling,Ennis is his bright light in an otherwise dark life.
The whole story is suffused with such descriptions and to me it just demonstrates the genius of her writing.Oh that I was even one tenth as talented.
The description of the mountain "boiled with demonic energy" is simply incredible.In a few short words she portrays all the pentup frustration of Ennis,his fears,the passion betwen the two men,all too soon cut short,and so much more.
Every time I read the story,something else leaps out at me.As Proulx herself says,in a short story every word has to count.She certainly manages to do that with this one.

[Vermont Sunset]

Dawn came glassy orange, stained from below by a gelatinous band of pale green. The sooty bulk of the mountain paled slowly until it was the same color as the smoke from Enniss's breakfast fire. The cold air sweetened, banded pebbles and crumbs of soil cast sudden pencil-long shadows and the rearing lodgepole pines below them massed in slabs of somber malachite.“

my fav quotation from the ss.

I am so taken by this paragraph that I have endeavored to describe the dawn for each day of the year.

But let's continue with her description both immediately before and after that paragraph. The "ascent into heaven" as I call it is accompanied by the music from BBM1

Ennis and Jack, the dogs, horses and mules, a thousand ewes and their lambs flowed up the trail like dirt water through the timber and out above the tree line into the great flowery meadows and the coursing, endless wind."

I am rendered breathless every time I imagine them climbing that slope.

And then continuing right after the dawn description.

During the day Ennis looked across a great gulf and sometimes saw Jack, a small dot moving across a high meadow as an insect moves across a table cloth. Jack, in his dark camp, saw Ennis as night fire, a red spark on the huge black mass of mountain

Jack as Meadow Dot, Ennis as Night Fire. Incredible. ( but she does throw one little "burr" into this description. It just occurred to me recently. What would you do to an insect you saw crawling across a tablecloth, huh?)

In less than one page she has described three of the most beautiful scenes imaginable, inextricably entwined with the men's feelings about each other and our feelings about them.

If you have read Close Range, the collection of Short stories in which BBM appears, you will realize this is unique. AP's characters are crushed and contorted by the harsh economic, social and physical environment in which they try to survive. but in BBM she lets nature ease up just a bit to allow the tender and fragile love of these two boys to flourish.

It was just the two of them alone on the mountain, flying innthe euphoric bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of the vehicle on the plain below. Suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours

[brokeplex]

"It was just the two of them alone on the mountain, flying in the euphoric bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of the vehicle on the plain below. Suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark"

Their Arcadia was both beautiful and doomed, as they really weren't alone after all. But, the vision of an Arcadia where they, or someone like them under their circumstances can be happy, is so very moving. Perhaps I think of the "natural" descriptions of their Arcadia on the mountain as being so appealing because it is painted on a canvas that is not so pretty, the real world of the small economically depressed towns and its harsh judgements of them.

And, a doomed beauty is often the most moving type of beauty, as it is fragile and transitory.

[Vermont Sunset]

"It was just the two of them alone on the mountain, flying in the euphoric bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of the vehicle on the plain below. Suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark"

Their Arcadia was both beautiful and doomed, as they really weren't alone after all. But, the vision of an Arcadia where they, or someone like them under their circumstances can be happy, is so very moving. Perhaps I think of the "natural" descriptions of their Arcadia on the mountain as being so appealing because it is painted on a canvas that is not so pretty, the real world of the small economically depressed towns and its harsh judgements of them.

And, a doomed beauty is often the most moving type of beauty, as it is fragile and transitory.

Annie called it the "sad impossibility of their love."

[Vermont Sunset]

"It was just the two of them alone on the mountain, flying in the euphoric bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of the vehicle on the plain below. Suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark"

Their Arcadia was both beautiful and doomed, as they really weren't alone after all. But, the vision of an Arcadia where they, or someone like them under their circumstances can be happy, is so very moving. Perhaps I think of the "natural" descriptions of their Arcadia on the mountain as being so appealing because it is painted on a canvas that is not so pretty, the real world of the small economically depressed towns and its harsh judgements of them.

And, a doomed beauty is often the most moving type of beauty, as it is fragile and transitory.

Yes, just at that moment AP tells us "They believed themselves invisible, not knowing that Joe Aguirre......." The ultimate Peeping Tom!

Of course you are right. But really life itself is transitory and fragile. It will end for all of us some day. So the real goal is to have at least one moment in time when things are perfect, when you can put aside the issue of its impermanence and just relish its exquite beauty. "...the time that distant summer when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisftying some shared and sexless hunger. They had stood that way for a "long" time..." That long time was probably less than an hour. In the movie it was less than a minute. Rocking in the sparklight feeling each others hearts beating. It may have been way too brief, yet it's memory brought joy to both of them for years after it passed.

Not to say that made it right. Made their suffering OK. Excused mistakes and bad decisions they made thereafter.  Made society's treatment of them acceptable.  It's just to say that they both had something that many people never experience.

[BlissC]

I think at the most basic level, the nature descriptions give us a sense of place, a landscape to put the characters into. It's glaringly obvious, but you need some sort of context to put the people into. Like much of the SS, the description of Aguirre's office at the start of the story is very sparse, but even from those few words, it paints a vivid picture in your mind just from the words she uses of what the inside of Aguirre's office is like, and you form a mental image of it.

With nature it's not so simple though. When they first went up the mountain - "ascent into heaven" (I'm sure I've seen it described as that somewhere before) -

"Ennis and Jack, the dogs, horses and mules, a thousand ewes and their lambs flowed up the trail like dirt water through the timber and out above the tree line into the great flowery meadows and the coursing, endless wind."

She could have said, "Ennis and Jack, the dogs, horses and mules, and the sheep climbed up the trail up the mountain through the trees and then up through the meadows", but apart from being a rather boring description, it gives us no sense of scale, no sense of how they moved up the mountain. I'm not a big fan of "how to write" books, preferring to just get stuck in myself and writing by instinct, but I do own a couple, and one of them has a chapter entitled "show, don't tell". Annie's not telling us simply what they did, but giving us that viital information that allows us to form a picture in our minds. It gives us the information to imagine how all of those thousand ewes and their lambs would have looked, making their way up the mountain, and so much more. They made their way through the trees and the meadows, and not only visually can we picture those flowery meadows that are "great" (sense of scale again), but the "coursing, endless wind" tells us about the climate up there so that apart from seeing the landscape we can also feel it - we can feel that wind and we're using all our senses now, not just the visual ones.

„ ...and they packed in the game and moved off the mountain with the sheep, stones rolling at their heels, purple cloud crowding in from the west and the metal smell of coming snow pressing them on. The mountain boiled with demonic energy, glazed with flickering broken-cloud light, the wind combed the grass and drew from the damaged krummholz and slit rock a bestial drone.“
(coming down the mountain)

Again, having been given the visual descriptions of the landscape throughout their time on the mountain, this time there's more emphasis on the feeling of the place, and the way it echoes their emotions. We're given details though from the tiniest level "stones rolling at their heels", which is something we can relate to, the way when you're walking downhill small stones roll after you, to the visual again "purple crowd rolling in..." - a visual description which also carries a sense of the mood, and also another sense - "the metal smell of coming snow", and then a more detailed description of the weather with sound "a bestial drone".

"It was just the two of them alone on the mountain, flying in the euphoric bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of the vehicle on the plain below. Suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours"

Again, a sense of scale - looking down on the hawk and vehicles on the plain below, but in with that there's mixed so much more about their relationship - two words she uses "flying" and "euphoric", but contrasts that with "bitter air" (bittersweet?). They're "suspended" both physically with the height of the mountain, and emotionally, separate from everyday life and "tame ranch dogs". Life on the mountain is far separated from everyday life, and though as Penthesilea says,

She herself said in interviews, that in a short story every single word has to be right, has to carry meaning, that even the punctuation is important.

...it's that description that tells us more about their life together on the mountain and how it contrasted with "real life" than any amount of dialogue between them could.

If you have read Close Range, the collection of Short stories in which BBM appears, you will realize this is unique. AP's characters are crushed and contorted by the harsh economic, social and physical environment in which they try to survive. but in BBM she lets nature ease up just a bit to allow the tender and fragile love of these two boys to flourish.

As Vermont Sunset says, it really feels as though with BBM she does let up and lets nature ease up just that little bit. I bought a friend of mine Close Range, and she started reading the other stories and about half way through gave up and skipped to BBM on the grounds that the stories were "Far too damned depressing!" lol! (and BBM's not? lol!)

I do feel that as Penthesilea quoted AP as saying, in a short story the choice of words is so important, but with the nature descriptions in BBM they really are vital to the story - the story of the mountain described through those descriptions, is just as important as the boys' story, and mirrors their story (in calm times we have descriptions of a peaceful mountain and the nature that surrounds them and in times of trouble, dramatic descriptions of the weather and the feel of the mountain that mirrors their moods), and that continues through the whole story. Those natural descriptions are integral to the story, and without them it would lack a lot. In the film we get the majestic landscapes and the subtle gestures and the looks and the expressions. In the SS though we have only the descriptions of their surroundings and we need those words to fill in the sense of place and to reinforce the dialogue and the snippets we are told about their thoughts. For linguistic artistry, how AP uses those words, on a scale of one to ten she gets and unequivocal fifteen - every single word is right, and does carry meaning, and BBM should be up there amongst the literary greats.

[Front-Ranger]

she does throw one little "burr" into this description. It just occurred to me recently. What would you do to an insect you saw crawling across a tablecloth, huh?)

Ouch, another premonition couched in an aside or joke!  Very insightful, friend VS!

[Vermont Sunset]

Ouch, another premonition couched in an aside or joke!  Very insightful, friend VS!

Yes, FR. I love her descriptions of nature as you well know. But from the very first time I read this, there was a "discomfort". Not only is it a bit of an unsettling image, it is an image from an indoor domestic setting, having seemingly nothing to do with the majesty around them. I figured it was just her unique way of describing things. But after reciting that passage from memory for the hundreth time at least, my voice suddenly took on a sinister tone as I came to that line..a sneer. And that's when it began to hit me. Then I thought of old man Twist's hands folded on the plastic "tablecloth" as he stares down Ennis and it clicked.

And think about it. An insect on a tablecloth is just being itself. Like adorable little 3 year old Jack who just can't quite get to the bathroom on time.  It has found itself unwittingly in the territory of another much more powerful creature who perceives it as a threat. ( the shoot 'em zone). The only response is to kill. ( Except if you are some of us bleeding hearts who go get a tissue to deposit the poor thing outdoors. I bet there are a lot of us here.  ).  The metaphor becomes clear. Jack as a "queer" is a threat to the homophobic society in which he exists, including most notably his father in that domestic setting.  But what if that insect was a dragonfly or a ladybug or a honeybee? Then not only do you kill an innocent creature, you kill one that actually has benefits to you.

And the further issue here is that this image is what Ennis is perceiving! His homophobia is completely unalloyed at this point, but that building attraction to Jack draws his eyes across that "great gulf". 

The price of blind ignorance. AP is truly a genius.

[Vermont Sunset]

Contrast Jack's view of Ennis. "night fire." "a red spark on the huge black mass of mountain." No ambiguity there, huh? Ennis is Jack's true love and only joy in a dark and forboding world.

[BlissC]

AP is truly a genius.

Indeed she is.

Interesting observation on the insect and the tablecloth metaphor too. I'd never paid that much attention to that line before, but now you've pointed it out, yep, it is kind of unsettling and almost at odds with the nature descriptions.

[brokeplex]

Contrast Jack's view of Ennis. "night fire." "a red spark on the huge black mass of mountain." No ambiguity there, huh? Ennis is Jack's true love and only joy in a dark and forboding world.

excellent observation!  I did not "see" that visual metaphor before! 

[Brown Eyes]

I think Annie's writing is particularly strong/poignant/complex in the moments where she's describing natural elements.  Absolutely beautiful and really inspiring.  Her sometimes quirk or unexpected "turns of phrase" and knack at description are some of my favorite elements of her style.

In terms of significance, I think it's so important to recognize how the lovely descriptions not only stand alone as bits of writing, but the metaphors and descriptions in those nature passages also inform the story about the human characters and give us insight into things like mood, foreboding, emotion, etc. that don't always come across purely from dialogue or explanation of things going on at the human level.

Annie's close attention to natural detail seems to be a big clue to us in terms of watching the film... that visual clues and elements of nature that we are presented with in the cinematic version of the story must also carry profound meaning.  Way beyond simply being pretty scenery.

Her attention to natural elements leads us to those wonderful discussions about natural phenomenons like wind, fire, earth and snow.  And, clearly this all informs the film's tag line "love is a force of nature."  Almost nudging the reader/viewer to take those details of nature very seriously.

[THE WINGS]

I feel that Annie's detailed descriptions of the natural settings of the story are truly brilliant, beyond what words can accurately describe. She paints a picture, so vivid, and visceral, that you can almost smell and feel the "hard-scrabble" existence dictated by the rugged, "masculine" landscape that Jack and Ennis grew up in.  In all of her stories, (That Old Ace In the Hole) which I am currently reading is no exception.  You get to literally breathe the air and feel the the landscape that these characters inhabit, which gives her stories the verisimilitude that makes them so REAL and believable, AND which most of us can relate to, on many different levels.

This makes her one of my all-time favourite authors, without a doubt.

Enough said....

THE WINGS

[Penthesilea]

Thanks everybody for sharing your insights  .

"The mountain boiled with demonic engery..." - this part always makes me feel like the mountain itself wanted to buck them off, like it were a living and breathing thing. I get a picture in my head of a moving, wobbling mass of mountain, like a bucking horse (or bull) in slow-motion.



One part I haven't made much sense of yet is the listing of all the mountain ranges they went to over the years. Of course it's striking that they were all over the place - but never returned to Brokeback. The garden Eden metaphor we discussed several times before. Once you're thrown out, you can never return. Hey, even the movie trailer says so "There are places we can't return".

But to make this point, it would have been enough if Proulx had listed three or four mountain ranges, adding .."and many others" (something along that lines). But she doesn't. Instead she lists no less than seventeen (!*) different mountain ranges.
Any thoughts on this?


*There's that number again; we discussed the 17 before, but mostly movie related. Could it be another example of the Lee/Proulx/Ossana/Murtry synergy?

[nakymaton]

One part I haven't made much sense of yet is the listing of all the mountain ranges they went to over the years. Of course it's striking that they were all over the place - but never returned to Brokeback. The garden Eden metaphor we discussed several times before. Once you're thrown out, you can never return. Hey, even the movie trailer says so "There are places we can't return".

But to make this point, it would have been enough if Proulx had listed three or four mountain ranges, adding .."and many others" (something along that lines). But she doesn't. Instead she lists no less than seventeen (!*) different mountain ranges.
Any thoughts on this?

I don't have the book with me (and have it tucked away someplace - that's why I haven't participated in this thread yet). But it's a pretty extensive list of the mountain ranges in Wyoming. I think that one reason the list is so long is to make Brokeback's omission seem all the more significant. They went everywhere else... but they couldn't go back.

(I wanted to comment on the various rock metaphors - somber malachite, flinty wind, and so forth. But I need to find my book first.)

[brokeplex]

sometimes "you can never go home"

[BlissC]

But to make this point, it would have been enough if Proulx had listed three or four mountain ranges, adding .."and many others" (something along that lines). But she doesn't. Instead she lists no less than seventeen (!*) different mountain ranges.
Any thoughts on this?


*There's that number again; we discussed the 17 before, but mostly movie related. Could it be another example of the Lee/Proulx/Ossana/Murtry synergy?

Sorry, I think I've missed something. What's the significance of 17?

[Front-Ranger]

Sorry, I think I've missed something. What's the significance of 17?

Ang is trying to tell everybody not to forget my birthday, LOL!! Actually, in addition to the 17 mountain ranges listed in the story where Ennis and Jack went over the two decades of their relationship, 17 is also the street address of Ennis' trailer at the end of the movie. We know because there was a close-up of him putting the numbers on his mailbox.

We have all been scratching our heads to try to figure out why 17?? Lee may be a devotee of numerology, but we doubt if Proulx is.

[Dal]

Ang is trying to tell everybody not to forget my birthday, LOL!!

D'OH!!  It's my birthday today -- and I was really busy at work, forgot all about it til I read this!  And Im supposed to be going out.  Thanks Front Ranger!r

[brokeplex]

Sorry, I think I've missed something. What's the significance of 17?

also Ennis puts the number "17" on his mail box outside his little trailer house.

the number "17" is made up of two digits : the number one and the number seven, if you add 1+ 7 together, they equal "8".

why is the number "8" important? It was important to Jack, and Ennis had to remember this. Jack wanted to be successful at rodeo, and in order to have a successful ride on a bull you must stay on the bull for 8 seconds. The usage of the term "8 seconds"  is very important cowboy lore and country and western music. It is metaphorical for success and achievement. When Ennis puts the "17" on his mail box, he then steps back and looks at it. I think that he saw the composite as adding up to 8 and was amused.

for what its worth   

[optom3]

also Ennis puts the number "17" on his mail box outside his little trailer house.

the number "17" is made up of two digits : the number one and the number seven, if you add 1+ 7 together, they equal "8".

why is the number "8" important? It was important to Jack, and Ennis had to remember this. Jack wanted to be successful at rodeo, and in order to have a successful ride on a bull you must stay on the bull for 8 seconds. The usage of the term "8 seconds"  is very important cowboy lore and country and western music. It is metaphorical for success and achievement. When Ennis puts the "17" on his mail box, he then steps back and looks at it. I think that he saw the composite as adding up to 8 and was amused.

for what its worth   

That is fascinting I never knew that.Ennis does stand back and look at the numbers.I always figured there had to be some significance after all sticking numbers on a mailbox is harly a work of art.Now maybe you ave come up with a reason why.I just love the Jack and rodeo idea.

[brokeplex]

That is fascinting I never knew that.Ennis does stand back and look at the numbers.I always figured there had to be some significance after all sticking numbers on a mailbox is harly a work of art.Now maybe you ave come up with a reason why.I just love the Jack and rodeo idea.

when you watch the film again, look for references to 8 seconds. I was doing a mental inventory of some of my fav CW hits, and I counted 10 mentions of "8" seconds in various hits by various artists. 

[brokeplex]

I noticed two mentionings of the number 8 when looking at the film.

1) Ennis speaking to Jack at the campsite about him not "seeing the purpose in riding a piece of stock for 8 seconds".

2) Jack mentioning to Ennis in 1967 that his son is 8 months old

I also noticed that if you add up Generation # 2 ( Ennis and Jacks contemporaries), there are 8 of them

Ennis, Jack, Alma, Lureen, LaShawn, Randall, Monroe, and Cassey.

Interestingly, adding up Generation #1 ( the parents of Generation #2 who have speaking roles in the film), there are 4 of them

OMT, Mrs Twist, LD, and Mrs Newsome

for what its worth, 

[Front-Ranger]

D'OH!!  It's my birthday today -- and I was really busy at work, forgot all about it til I read this!  And Im supposed to be going out.  Thanks Front Ranger!r

When you are so busy at work you forget it's your birthday, then you are too busy. Either that, or you have a fascinating job!

Good points about the Number Eight, oilgun. Eight is also very important (and means prosperity) in Asian cultures, like the Chinese/Taiwanese culture of Ang Lee.

[brokeplex]

When you are so busy at work you forget it's your birthday, then you are too busy. Either that, or you have a fascinating job!

Good points about the Number Eight, oilgun. Eight is also very important (and means prosperity) in Asian cultures, like the Chinese/Taiwanese culture of Ang Lee.

8 = prosperity in Asian cultures? Interesting angle! Oh and the name is "oilfieldtrash", "frontranger". "oilgun" may not wish to have his posts confused with mine.

I changed it from "brokeplex", as I noticed that others on the site were changing their names and I was tired of "brokeplex" ,so I changed it. hope you have a great weekend. 

[brokeplex]

I noticed something else, if you look at Generation III, the children of Generation II, there are 8 individual actors with speaking roles playing the children.

 4 in Generation I
    8 in Generation II
    8 in Generation III

and if you look at the "outsiders" who have speaking roles , ie Aguirre, Timmy, etc, there are 16 of them. each group is a multiple of 4!