Author Topic: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?  (Read 11101 times)

pinku

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What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« on: May 21, 2006, 02:07:07 am »
I think Jack wouldn't have suffered as much as Ennis did!  Ennis despite being taciturn was emotionally more vulnerable or sensitive  than Jack.

Offline RouxB

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2006, 02:43:22 am »
Hi Pinku-welcome!

I think Jack would absolutely have suffered as much as Ennis-this was not a one-sided love. Jack lived a very good part of his life holding on to the dream that he and Ennis would one day be together (I don't think for a moment he was leaving Ennis after the lake scene). Too lose Ennis-and that dream-would be the end of him emotionally. On the other hand, "stand it" Ennis, would go on-certainly even more emotionally damaged, but he would go on.

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Offline silkncense

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2006, 11:40:09 am »
Ruby -

I agree.  I always felt that Jack mentioning the 'ranch neighbor' was just an emotional and/or defensive cover but that his mother saw right through it. 

In the lake scene, when he saw Ennis was hurt emotionally, he couldn't stand it.  All the resolve he was trying to build just melted away and he went to hold & reassure Ennis yet again w/ "It's alright, it's alright." 

And the "Damn you Ennis" was because he knew right then that he couldn't "quit" him. 
"……when I think of him, I just can't keep from crying…because he was a friend of mine…"

Offline serious crayons

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2006, 12:26:07 pm »
Interesting question, pinku!

I think Jack would have been just as distraught -- his love for Ennis was equal to Ennis' for him. But I think Jack is better able to cope with his emotions and is more of a survivor. While I can't imagine Ennis ever being with anyone else again, I can imagine this for Jack. He would always miss Ennis. But we would not see him in the final shot living in an isolated trailer with nothing for company but a shrine.

Offline silkncense

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2006, 12:35:53 pm »
latjoreme -

Once again I agree.  And as was stated by Annie "There is no Ennis without Jack." 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 10:37:01 am by silkncense »
"……when I think of him, I just can't keep from crying…because he was a friend of mine…"

Offline starboardlight

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2006, 01:52:53 pm »
I agree that Jack would have suffered just as much, but probably in a different way. I wonder too if after Ennis died, Jack would have become even more reckless in his search for his "Ennis" in other men.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

pinku

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2006, 02:28:50 pm »
  It should be noted that Jack had already decided to set up home with that rancher friend of his. When Jack's father informs Ennis about this - Ennis is sure that Jack was killed because of this decision. This is clear from the story! It is difficult to put it but Jack was going around with other men and had Ennis died it would have not ended his peccadilloes! He might have killed himself slowly by drinking more and surely would have missed Ennis badly.
But the tragic figure here is Ennis, who is surviving for the sake of it. At 39 he is no longer interested in anything but is happy when Jack appears in his dreams! Here Annie achievs a masterstroke!
 This is what makes the book/movie so tragic... that feeling of total hopelessness...that pain you feel when you see your mother or father dying slowly. This is about one's inability to deal with the death of a loved one and that Ennis is totally alone makes it more poignant! Ennis is an honest man, he truly feel in love with Jack and only Jack. Don't you feel bad when an innocent person suffers for a crime that he has not commited! Here, Ennis is subjected to a lifetime of suffering!
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 02:38:16 pm by pinku »

Offline silkncense

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2006, 03:10:09 pm »
Quote
It should be noted that Jack had already decided to set up home with that rancher friend of his. When Jack's father informs Ennis about this - Ennis is sure that Jack was killed because of this decision. This is clear from the story!

It is not actually clear from the story nor the film.  I disagree that Jack had decided to set up home with the rancher.  And although Ennis felt at that moment @ Lightning Flat that Jack had been killed by the tire iron - he later was not so sure. 

Annie Proulx (+ the scriptwriters & Ang)'s brilliance is that the reader/viewer is able to interpret the dialouge/ intentions/ scenes for themselves.
"……when I think of him, I just can't keep from crying…because he was a friend of mine…"

pinku

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2006, 03:49:23 pm »
Quote
Then, this spring he's got another one's goin a come up here with him and build a
place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down
in Texas.
He's goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So
he says. But like most a Jack's ideas it never come to pass."

Quote
So now he knew it had been the tire iron

Sourced from Annie Proulx " Brokeback Mountain"

There is no need to interpret, it is most obvious! And because Jack had decided - he was killed!
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 03:51:57 pm by pinku »

Offline silkncense

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2006, 07:56:51 pm »
Thank you Pinku but your quotes have not changed my opinion -

I also have the book, have read it several times & have seen the film.  As, I suspect, have most everyone on this board.  And very little is as obvious as you would insist.

Enjoy your discussion.  Or not.



"……when I think of him, I just can't keep from crying…because he was a friend of mine…"

Offline Toast

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2006, 11:27:10 pm »

I think Jack would have always mourned Ennis, but he would have made a new life without him, still being sociable, joining up with someone else, but the drinking would have become more pronounced and Jack might have become less productive, with no one to encourage him to be the warm loving person that he is.  Like starboardlignt said, Jack might have become more reckless, and would have been a prime candidate for death by AIDS before 1990.

One statement of Jack's that is in the screenplay, but not in the movie or novella is
If you can't fix it then, by God, drive off from it - that's my motto.

He said this on the highway, when he met Randall.  Did he mean that he would walk away from Ennis, or from a tire problem?

I think Ennis will become sadder and remain withdrawn, but Jack would become possibly more "social" and less emotionally attached to anyone.  Drinking would become even more of a problem for Jack.
 
Annie gave us two characters who cannot stand alone.

Aren't we all like that, really?

Offline RouxB

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2006, 11:33:16 pm »
Pinku-I think maybe what Silk is getting at is that there are many people on this board with much experience with both the story and the movie and there is a diversity of opinion and all of it, including yours, is just that-opinion.

When John Twist tells Ennis of Jack's plan to bring up the rancher, he also states that, like most of Jack's plans, this one never came to pass-and not because Jack died.  

As for Jack's death, it too is ambiguous and is meant to be that way. I don't know if you have read the numerous interviews with Ang Lee, Larry McMurtry and Diana Osana, not to mention Annie Proulx but each one of them has affirmed that Jack's death is meant to be unclear and it is up to the reader to interpret it according to his or her own life experience. I would be happy to direct you to some of those interviews if you would like.

Lastly, this board is full of brilliant, insightful people with interpretations and opinions that are certainly worth hearing and respecting. It does all of us a disservice when you belittle and mock those opinions. We are, a lot of us, refugees from the nastiness and rudeness of IMDb and don't wish to see that happen here at Bettermost. These is a peaceful, though spirited, community where differences in interpretation are welcomed. It would be great to have you participate in that spirit.

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pinku

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2006, 01:32:01 am »
To Ruby,

I beg to differ! The ambiguity is in the movie not in the novel. I would welcome if you would direct me to sites that have the writer saying that Jack's death is open to interpretation.
 


Offline serious crayons

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2006, 02:02:03 am »
I beg to differ! The ambiguity is in the movie not in the novel. I would welcome if you would direct me to sites that have the writer saying that Jack's death is open to interpretation.

I'm sorry, I should probably just run upstairs and get my book and quote exactly, it's late and I'm lazy, but isn't there a part about "sometimes the tire iron, sometimes the spoon"?

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2006, 04:33:16 am »
Hi pinku, we haven't talked so far, so I first want to say 'Welcome to BetterMost' to you.


This is the paragraph latjoreme referred to; it's the last paragraph from the strory.

Quote
Around that time Jack began to appear in his dreams, Jack as he has first seen him, curly-headed and smiling and bucktoothed, talking about getting up off his pockets and into the control zone, but the can of beans with the spoon handle jutting out and balanced on the log was there as well, in a cartoon shape and lurid colors that gave the dreams a flavor of comic obscenity. The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron. And he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.
(Emphasis mine)

I, too, remember Annie Proulx saying something to the effect that is indeed open to interpretation how Jack died. If memory serves, she said she doesn't know for sure at herself. I'm sure Ruby will come up with the exact quotes and sources.

Many things in the story and in the movie are ambiguous and therefore open to interpretation. The circumstances of Jack's death and Jack's intentions after their final trip sure belong in this category.
These questions have been (and still are) discussed a lot on IMDB and here on BetterMost. It's ok to have diametrical POVs. We don't have to agree in these questions - as long as we are respectful towards other opinions and don't insist on having an exclusive right to interpret the story. In this spirit I'm looking forward to further discussions.



« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 04:38:19 am by Penthesilea »

Offline aileen

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2006, 07:04:08 am »
It' s clear for me that Jack would suffer as much as Ennis!!! But yes, maybe in the other way... Maybe he would find someone else and try to live with him - but he would always remember Ennis - his real, true love. He let Ennis keep him on "the f... short leash" for 20 years!!! He couldn' t just forget  him.... I want to believe this.

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2006, 09:24:00 am »
It should be noted that Jack had already decided to set up home with that rancher friend of his. When Jack's father informs Ennis about this - Ennis is sure that Jack was killed because of this decision. This is clear from the story! It is difficult to put it but Jack was going around with other men and had Ennis died it would have not ended his peccadilloes! He might have killed himself slowly by drinking more and surely would have missed Ennis badly.

I don't think I agree that Jack was in the thows of setting up home with Randall to the extent that you suggest here pinku, at least not in so far as to be leaving Ennis.  Yes he did tell his parents that he was going to "bring some other fella up", but we have to remember that until the argument they were going to meet again in August, so as far as we know there was no change in the relationship.  I guess if we are to think that the argument did precipitate the events leading to Jack's death (assuming the tire-iron of course), all of this must occur in the months between the argument scene and November.

I think your right though, Jack would have been devastated, but I think it would be different than for Ennis.  When Ennis loses Jack, he is filled with regret for his failure to see what he had with Jack.  His self-loathing greater than ever.  I think Jack was much more aware of what he had with Ennis, so his sadness will be more about missing Ennis than about regret.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2006, 09:28:09 am »
I think your right though, Jack would have been devastated, but I think it would be different than for Ennis.  When Ennis loses Jack, he is filled with regret for his failure to see what he had with Jack.  His self-loathing greater than ever.  I think Jack was much more aware of what he had with Ennis, so his sadness will be more about missing Ennis than about regret.

Good point, Chris. Ennis' pain is especially sad because it's mingled with guilt and regret.  :'(

Offline silkncense

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2006, 10:33:36 am »
Thanks much RouxB & Penthesilea -

Hope the information you provided makes an impact.  Based on prior threads, I made a personal decision that it would not be beneficial for me (or this board) to continue the discussion.

Such an interesting question tho'.



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pinku

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2006, 10:40:56 am »
Well, Thanks everyone!


Offline welliwont

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2006, 11:21:48 am »
To Ruby,

I beg to differ! The ambiguity is in the movie not in the novel. I would welcome if you would direct me to sites that have the writer saying that Jack's death is open to interpretation.

Here is what AP wrote as the last line in the story:  "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.”

I interpret the line to say we are not meant to know, it will remain a mystery to us as it will to Ennis.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 11:24:48 am by J »
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

pinku

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2006, 12:25:23 pm »
I think the last line is about Jack appearing in Ennis' dreams and the fact that  Ennis has to go on without Jack. In my opinion Ennis has had already resolved Jack's murder during his meeting with Jack's pa and ma. This line signifies that Ennis has accepted the fact that Jack is not going to come back and there is nothing he can do about it but accept it...

Oh ..... What a disturbing novel/movie! The theme is simple enough but the impact massive, almost overpowering. An emotional hurricane! What a writer! I am almost afraid to read her other stories-  I am yet to recover from this!

I also think that though Heath was perfect for the role of Ennis, somehow I can't say the same thing about Jake. Even AP describes Jack as a short, curly haired guy with buckteeth and heavy thighs. The kissing scene would have been more hot had Jack/Jake drawn blood as described in the book..mmmmmmmmmmm..stubble rasping...something about saliva welling...my god ...hope I don't wet my sheets  today....;D
« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 12:31:29 pm by pinku »

Offline starboardlight

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2006, 12:52:19 pm »
It is not actually clear from the story nor the film.  I disagree that Jack had decided to set up home with the rancher.  And although Ennis felt at that moment @ Lightning Flat that Jack had been killed by the tire iron - he later was not so sure. 

Annie Proulx (+ the scriptwriters & Ang)'s brilliance is that the reader/viewer is able to interpret the dialouge/ intentions/ scenes for themselves.

yep. what Jack's father tells Ennis seems to suggest that Jack had decided, but remember that Jack had also said to his parents that  he and Ennis would move up to Lightning Flat, even though they hadn't decided on anything. So the same could be true with Randall. That it was merely Jack talking out his thoughts rather announcing anything concrete.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2006, 05:39:25 pm »
See, I think Jake Gyllenhaal was [freakin'] perfect in the part of Jack. Granted, I know that Proulx wrote that Jack had buck-teeth and curly hair -- and I would've loved to see them give him buck-teeth and even better, the bleeding lips in the reunion kiss (that would've been awesome; how could Ennis explain that to Alma?).

"There is no Ennis without Jack."

I was thinking about this quote of Annie Proulx's the other day. When I first heard it, I thought it was really sweet and adorable but thinking about it now, it's very grim and disturbing. Why, because Jack dies and therefore, Ennis dies too. Ennis, however, cannot go and join Jack; he has to live an abject life and live with the guilt, agony, and despair forever.

Had it been Ennis (I thought Ennis was going to die from falling off the horse and breaking his neck actually -- the commercials showed the scene where his horse gets spooked by the bear up on Brokeback) I think Jack would've been utterly devastated. I think he would've gone to the funeral had anyone gotten in touch with him (would Alma? I doubt she knew how to contact him) and I think he would be, quietly, broken forever but I think he wouldn't let anyone see it. His Mom would probably know though.

I think it'd be a few years before he even contemplated a relationship with another man and then, it wouldn't amount to anything.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 04:19:48 pm by bbm_stitchbuffyfan »
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We missed out on each other now


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pinku

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2006, 11:31:23 pm »
Still you remember the movie because of Heath rather than Jake. If you were to watch the movie without having read the book, then I guess it is ok. Or maybe Heath is a better actor or had the meaty scenes , at least towards the end which left a greater impact in the minds of the viewers!

To Bbm...

I would rather have you not to use the f* word, at least while replying to my posts. This is not your home and please have the decency  not to use such words! Express your frustrations to the gay bashers not to me!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 09:42:11 am by pinku »

Offline Jane

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2006, 12:37:28 pm »
Interesting question, pinku!

I think Jack would have been just as distraught -- his love for Ennis was equal to Ennis' for him. But I think Jack is better able to cope with his emotions and is more of a survivor. While I can't imagine Ennis ever being with anyone else again, I can imagine this for Jack. He would always miss Ennis. But we would not see him in the final shot living in an isolated trailer with nothing for company but a shrine.


Exactly right.  Anyone else would always be second best to Ennis.  Lets face it, he only saw other guys ie male prostitues to fullfull a biological need.  Ennis shut his emotions and needs down when he wasnt with Jack,(which is why he couldnt control himself at the reunion scene)  :) but Jack bless him couldnt help but show how he felt.  Yes he might have met someone else, but no one would EVER compare to Ennis.  Poor Jack, poor Ennis. :'( :'( :'(
Always and forever. J&E.xx

tiawahcowboy

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2006, 01:37:11 pm »
As far as Annie Proulx's orignal short story is concerned, the one her publisher had copyrighted in 1997 before the New Yorker Magazine printed a slightly edited version of it, leaving out the two opening paragraphs, Ennis is the lead character in the story.

Other than Ennis Del Mar saying a few words aloud when he is by himself, no other person talks in the short story unless the person is talking to Ennis.

Oh, the other person can quote what someone else said; but, then, the person is still talking to Ennis when relating the story.


Offline welliwont

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2006, 12:53:04 am »
And as was stated by Annie "There is no Ennis without Jack." 

Hello Silkncense:
"There is no Ennis without Jack."

hunh?  what does that mean???  If you know, will you let me in on it?
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Offline welliwont

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2006, 01:26:09 am »

When John Twist tells Ennis of Jack's plan to bring up the rancher, he also states that, like most of Jack's plans, this one never came to pass-and not because Jack died.


Hi Ruby or RouxB:

Is it bad form to ask questions of something that you posted ten days ago?  'Cause I have one for you....  What do you mean by "and not because Jack died".  I thought that the reason "this one never came to pass" was in fact because Jack died.

If Jack had not died, it may have come to pass.  or not.  we will never know.  Do you have some reason to think that it would never have happened, if you do, please share!

Here is my rough timeline, it is only my guesstimate, so you can comment on this too  _  if you want!


  • Last camping trip for Ennis & Jack:  Spring 1983

  • Jack's last visit to Lightening Flat:  the two days after the last camping trip  --  this is when he mentioned to his Pa about bringing up a Rancher neighbour

  • Jack dies:  MAY or JUNE or JULY or possibly the beginning of AUGUST  --  (<<Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED)>>

  • Ennis mails the last postcard to Jack:  beginning to mid-October 1983

  • Postcard is returned to Ennis stamped "DECEASED": late October 1983


So since Jack died within a few months of having told his Pa about the Rancher neighbour, I think there had just not been enough time for Jack to make it happen.

What is your take on this?




 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 03:50:12 am by J »
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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2006, 11:48:28 am »
In other boards, not this one nor that one beginning with an "I," a person stated that one of the screenplay versions has Ennis getting the "DECEASED" stamped postcard (about the November meeting) returned several months after he sent it in October.

And, while Ennis calls Jack's Childress, Texas phone number and talks to Lureen as soon as he can after getting the returned card, he does not go up to Lightning Flat until it is summer time in 1984.

According to the "book," Ennis was working at the Stoutamire Ranch in Signal in 1983 and he was still working there when he went up to Jack's boyhood home place. Ennis seems to have waited until he could get time off from work before he made the trip. And, he returned to work at Stoutamire's after the trip up to Lightning Flat. The "Brokeback Mountain" postcard was "ordered" in the Signal Higgins Gift Shop one day when Ennis was washing the horse blankets from the ranch. Ennis had to go back to the store to pick up the card when it arrived.

Offline ghent

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2006, 12:11:03 am »
Quote
I think Jack would have always mourned Ennis, but he would have made a new life without him, still being sociable, joining up with someone else.. 

I also think that Jack would have mourned for a time, experienced guilt (entirely misplaced guilt considering that he did much more to maintain the relationship than Ennis). But I also think that eventually he would have not only found a more compatible, sympathetic love-interest, but also probably leave Texas/Wyoming entirely. Randall would be left behind as well. Jack would probably move to a liberal, rural area and fall in love with a more suitable life-partner, an individual much more likely to be the 'love of his life' than Ennis ever was or could have ever been.

Quote
Annie gave us two characters who cannot stand alone.

Ennis and Jack *were* alone (ie. apart) for most of their relationship. And Ennis' profound emotional dysfunctionality and hypocrisy (he could have girlfriends, Jack could have affairs with women, but Ennis went berzerk about Mexico) clouded their time together.

I think that the last big fight they had ended the relationship in Jack's mind. Eventually, Jack would come to realize that Ennis needed a good therapist more than a boyfriend.

tiawahcowboy

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2006, 11:57:44 am »
If the 1st two paragraphs of Annie Proulx's copyrighted 1997 original story had been used in the movie, one would have been able to see that Ennis had gone through several steps of the grief and bereavement process on his own in the loss of Jack Twist from his life.

The last dream mentioned which Ennis had is in those two paragraphs and it was not a sad one, nor even a nightmare.

Offline akredhead

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2006, 02:37:58 pm »
I think it would matter when in the story Ennis died.

In the beginning when they were first starting their trips...perhaps it would have been utterly devistating to Jack...

But...near the end...Jack was drifting away from Ennis...his frustration and dissappointment was overwhelming his one happy memory that seemed to keep him tied to Ennis. If Ennis had died when they were older (around the same age as when Jack died)...he would surely be sad...but then I think he would have divorced his wife and found some hard-as-nails cowpoke to ranch with...

One of the layers of tragedy of this story was Ennis's heart was so dead (or dormant) until Jack died...but Jack's heart was so alive...

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2006, 04:49:09 pm »
If Ennis had died I the Jack would have lost all hope. As long as he had Ennis he had that. He would have taken it much harder than Ennis. I don't mean to say that Ennis loved Jack less, just that he had a lifetime of loss and was able to "stand it"
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Noviani

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Re: What would have been Jack's reaction had Ennis died?
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2006, 04:09:26 am »
anything from devastated to severe stress.

Ennis is in his blood. without him, can Jack live?

"Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it..."

I finally found an Indonesian-translated version of BBM short story!!!!!
Ye-haww!!