Author Topic: Ennis and Old Man Twist  (Read 27470 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2006, 11:53:15 am »
That *look* he gives Alma when she protests him dumping their daughters off at the store.

OT, but I've always found that a strange moment. Yeah, his look is stubborn, but more in a pleading than threatening way. Yet Alma suddenly backs down as if scared of him. I know we're supposed to think that Alma fears physical violence from Ennis, but once again if that's the case it's not well supported by the evidence we see. (And later, when she's stalking off to work and he's yelling at her, she doesn't seem scared at all.)

(I've imagined Jack's mother and father both reading much more in his face and his tone than what he actually ever said in words, too; - hence their seemingly knowing reaction to Ennis when they finally meet him - the father so contemptful, the mother so full of understanding and affection.)

Well, I wonder how out Jack was with his parents. Their automatic and complete understanding of Jack's and Ennis' relationship, the mother's boundless sympathy and keeping of the shirts, the old man's remarks about "I know where Brokeback Mountain is" and "thought he was too special to be buried in the family plot" (with its hint of Jack violating "family values"), his lack of surprise about Jack's ranching plans, even possibly his rejection of his son in the first place ... It's hard to imagine them all openly chatting about Jack's sexuality over the kitchen table, I guess, but somehow I gather the folks have long been pretty familliar with it.

Which must have been a bit surprising for Ennis when he meets them. Sure, Mr. Twist is a jerk, but in Ennis' experience, the way fathers react to homosexuality is not by making snide remarks but by torturing someone to death.




« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 01:42:20 pm by latjoreme »

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2006, 01:38:41 pm »
I've been letting the original question rattle around in my head, and I can't quite decide exactly what my answer is.

I think it depends on how Ennis and Mr. Twist relate to one another: as ranch hand and employer, or as Jack's lover and Jack's father?

As Mikaela, Katherine, and Penthesilea have said, Ennis tends to be pretty deferential except in the circumstances that lead to fights. And I would add that, as an employee, Ennis seems to be very responsible. ("We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat them." "We've got to stick this out, Jack." That look of guilt when the sheep is dead after the first night in the tent -- and I know there's a lot more symbolism in that scene than that, but I think Ennis-the-responsible-worker is part of the dynamic in that scene. And then later on, all those times when Ennis skips out on Christmas to do ranch work, or drops off the girls with Alma because the heifers are calving, or goes on a round-up instead of taking his one-weekend-a-month with his daughters.) And Ennis also doesn't tend to rebel -- he seems willing to take orders that aren't reasonable (sleep-with-the-sheep-no-fire), or to work long hours without getting much in return.

The exceptions, the times Ennis does rebel or complain, all are tied to Jack. Jack's the reason Ennis orders soup, even though it's hard to pack. Jack's the reason Ennis poaches an elk (and yeah, that's a compromise, but it's still against the rules). Ennis switches assigned jobs after Jack complains. Ennis stays in camp longer than he should, and eventually spends the night there, because he likes being with Jack. Ennis complains about Aguirre cutting them out of a month's pay because Ennis doesn't want to leave Jack. And later on, Ennis quits jobs so he can go on the "fishing trips."

Ennis's violent streak, as Mikaela pointed out, always seems tied to comments about Ennis's sexuality. (I might go so far as to say that Ennis gets into fights because of the conflicts going on inside him, almost as if Ennis is trying to beat his sexuality into submission by hitting other people.) So a lot would hinge on how much Ennis had come to accept himself in order to try to live the "sweet life."

And as for Ennis's relationship with Jack's father -- well, I think that would depend a lot on how Jack dealt with it. If Jack's father avoided Ennis, and Ennis just did the work and avoided Jack's father, then they would probably be able to co-exist. But if Jack's father treated Ennis badly -- I could see Ennis just taking it, as long as Jack's father didn't manage to hit one of Ennis's sore points (and then, watch out -- Ennis is like a dormant volcano, I swear). But Jack complains when things don't seem right to him. (Bitching about Aguirre's orders, complaining to the teacher about his son, backing up Lureen at Thanksgiving. And, of course, "no more beans.") And if Jack complains, Ennis does something. Not exactly what Jack wants, not most of the time. But Ennis does something. (And if Jack and Ennis moved up to Lightning Flat, that would mean that Ennis became more likely to give in when Jack wanted something, not less likely as in the movie/story.)

Katherine: I interpret "though he was too special..." as referring to a lot of different things -- maybe partly to Jack's sexuality, but also to the fact that Jack left home, moved to Texas, and never even brought his wife and baby to visit them. Yes, they could have gone to Texas to visit as well, but Jack's father just seems so typical of all the old rural families that I have known who watched their kids move away -- even the really nice parents get resentful of all that separation from their kids and grandkids.

Jeff -- yes, I think that the Twist ranch would have been the most economically viable option for Jack and Ennis. It's strange that movie-Jack mentions things like Ennis moving to Texas late in their relationship, but never mentions Lightning Flat as an option. I know that Ennis is really twitchy about the whole living-together thing, but from a practical standpoint, the Lightning Flat option has a lot going for it. It just might work financially. It's at least in Wyoming, even if it's pretty far from Riverton, so it might be practical for Ennis to see his daughters once a month. And if Ennis was really afraid of living openly with Jack, they could concoct a reasonable cover story about being a ranch owner and foreman. (In an ideal world, they wouldn't need to, but Wyoming is hardly an ideal world.)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2006, 02:12:19 pm »
Lots of great points, Mel. I think I agree with everything you say. In fact, you brought up a few things I hadn't thought of but which go further to support my earlier opinion -- such as Ennis' strong sense of resonsibility and hard work and his willingness to abide discomfort, alongside Jack's tendency to complain and rebel and unwillingness to settle for unsatisfactory situations.

(As for Mr. Twist's "too special" remark, Mel, I agree. He probably meant mainly the things you mentioned, and he probably wasn't explicitly or consciously referring to sexuality either then, or when he says "I know where Brokeback Mountain is" or "family plot." But those lines have that metaphoric meaning for viewers. In other words, as far as Mr. Twist knows, he's simply noting that he could find Brokeback and put the ashes there himself if he wanted to, which he doesn't. But because we connect the mountain with Jack and Ennis' relationship, we can interpret it as a clue that he knows about Jack.)

Anyway, I take all these things to suggest that the main conflicts at the ranch, if any, would be between the father and son. Ennis would work hard and be responsible and try to get along, getting mad only if he felt Jack were being hurt in some way. Which Jack wouldn't be, because he wouldn't put up with his old man's shit no more. But the old man, for his part, would realize he needed the help and, though not thrilled with the arrangement, would grudgingly go along with it. He'd be doing a lot of spittin, though.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2006, 02:17:25 pm »
OT, but I've always found that a strange moment. Yeah, his look is stubborn, but more in a pleading than threatening way. Yet Alma suddenly backs down as if scared of him.

OT on my part too, but I can't see this scene as Alma being afraid of physical violence either. (In fact, I didn't see that or consider it apart from in their last confrontation of course, until Michelle Williams pointed this fear of violence out as part of Alma's motivation. I still have a hard time seeing it in how Alma behaves during their marriage...) Anyway, what I saw and still see when Ennis drops the kids off in the store, is Alma thinking to herself: "Uh-oh. He's got that look that says he'll *never* back down. I might as well give in now and save some time, because he'll certainly never do so."


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Sure, Mr. Twist is a jerk, but in Ennis' experience, the way fathers react to homosexuality is not by making snide remarks but by torturing someone to death.


It's remarkable how much Mr. Twist in the film benefits from the filmmakers excluding any reference to that horrible child abuse scene in the short story. It makes him appear in the film as an embittered, extremely small-minded and prejudiced man, but not as an outright monster; - while Ennis's father, on the other hand.....   >:(


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From Nakymaton
I think it depends on how Ennis and Mr. Twist relate to one another: as ranch hand and employer, or as Jack's lover and Jack's father?

Insofar that they have to relate to one another, I imagine it would be the former, - that would be the front they'd have to put up to the world at large, wouldn't it - so they should probably manage to keep up the same pretence to the point of exchanging monosyllables and otherwise to keep out of each other's way , keeping their thoughts to themselves.

However, I was wondering - is there no US tradition or formalized system of the next generation taking over the farm, and the "old people" staying on, on specified terms concerning how much of the proceeds from the farm they have a right to etc.? That's the system in my country, fine-tuned over the centuries - it ensures a transition of the formal responsibility and ownership to those who actually can be expected to do most of the farm work. Of course, the older generation has to agree that "it's time" for the transition to run smoothly. In the alternate version we're discussing here, on the personal relationship level it might have been easier on all concerned if Jack took over the responsibility of the ranch. And no need for old man Twist to do anything to "save face" if that system was acknowledged in their society as the proper way of things.


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He'd be doing a lot of spittin, though.
Yes! But then Ennis is a consummate spitter, too. The hygiene conditions on the Twist Ranch might inbetween leave something to be desired..... ;)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 02:23:32 pm by Mikaela »

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2006, 02:46:52 pm »
(As for Mr. Twist's "too special" remark, Mel, I agree. He probably meant mainly the things you mentioned, and he probably wasn't explicitly or consciously referring to sexuality either then, or when he says "I know where Brokeback Mountain is" or "family plot." But those lines have that metaphoric meaning for viewers. In other words, as far as Mr. Twist knows, he's simply noting that he could find Brokeback and put the ashes there himself if he wanted to, which he doesn't. But because we connect the mountain with Jack and Ennis' relationship, we can interpret it as a clue that he knows about Jack.)
Oh, definitely. There's definitely more than one meaning to everything said in that conversation -- heck, there's more than one meaning to nearly everything in the movie, I suspect. (Which is why I'm still trying to talk through it after five months or more.) And sexuality is definitely an undercurrent in that conversation.

(Actually, the spitting even has more than one level of meaning. I kind of figured that Mr. Twist chewed tobacco, and that the cup was his spitoon. I've seen guys spit into far more disturbing things than a coffee cup. But, yes, it also serves as a particular sort of punctuation to the conversation!)

Mikaela -

Hmmmm. US property law. It's possible to set up a "trust," in which property is passed on to an heir before the death of the original property owner. But for some reason, it doesn't seem as though farming/ranching families use them that much. (I hear a lot of stories about elderly owners dying and their kids selling the place to developers to pay the estate taxes, though I don't know the truth behind the stories -- they get brought up in political debates, and may be exaggerated.) For some reason, the past few generations of farm/ranch kids don't seem to have been as likely to keep up the family place. I don't know if it has to do with US property law, or if it has to do with pressure for 20-somethings to go make their own way in the world, and then the kids not being willing to go back to the farm/ranch once they're 40 or older.

The question might also be whether Mr. Twist, the original "stud duck," would have been willing to let Jack be the "man of the place." But, yeah, if there were a stronger tradition in place, it might make that kind of transition easier.
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2006, 03:01:36 pm »
There's definitely more than one meaning to everything said in that conversation -- heck, there's more than one meaning to nearly everything in the movie, I suspect.

Tell you what - I think that would be an interesting topic in its own right: Which lines in the movie cannot under any circumstance be said to have more than one meaning, - ie. can *only* be interpreted in one specific way, at face value? I bet there aren't many. I'd create that thread myself except I feel a bit too new around here still.

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Actually, the spitting even has more than one level of meaning. I kind of figured that Mr. Twist chewed tobacco, and that the cup was his spitoon.
Oh, the spitting definitely has more than one meaning. Even if it's viewed as a certain sign of contempt (which by no means is certain)  - what is it contempt *for*? Jack thinking himself above his folks? Jack's (and Ennis's) sexual orientation? Everyone and anything in general, 'cause Mr. Twist is a mean old bugger?

It doesn't look to me as if he's chewing tobacco - at least not that the actor is doing it in the scene. But that doesn't mean that Mr. Twist didn't chew, of course.



And thank you for the explanation on US property law!  :)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 03:06:39 pm by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2006, 03:08:17 pm »
Oh, definitely. There's definitely more than one meaning to everything said in that conversation -- heck, there's more than one meaning to nearly everything in the movie, I suspect. (Which is why I'm still trying to talk through it after five months or more.) And sexuality is definitely an undercurrent in that conversation.

OK, I should have figured that's what you meant. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound teachery.

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I've seen guys spit into far more disturbing things than a coffee cup.

I once had a boss who chewed tobacco all day long and spat in his trash can. The worst part was that after he left, I got his job, his desk ... and his trash can.

Good idea, Mikaela, only it's so hard to exclude the possibility of multiple interpretations of almost any line, maybe it would work better to just list lines and see how many different interpretations we can come up with. Either way, go ahead and start a thread! No one's too new, and it's your good idea. Though if you don't, I will! (Speaking of which, what the hell does that line mean? I've always found it a little weird.)


Mikaela -

Hmmmm. US property law. It's possible to set up a "trust," in which property is passed on to an heir before the death of the original property owner. But for some reason, it doesn't seem as though farming/ranching families use them that much. (I hear a lot of stories about elderly owners dying and their kids selling the place to developers to pay the estate taxes, though I don't know the truth behind the stories -- they get brought up in political debates, and may be exaggerated.) For some reason, the past few generations of farm/ranch kids don't seem to have been as likely to keep up the family place. I don't know if it has to do with US property law, or if it has to do with pressure for 20-somethings to go make their own way in the world, and then the kids not being willing to go back to the farm/ranch once they're 40 or older.

The question might also be whether Mr. Twist, the original "stud duck," would have been willing to let Jack be the "man of the place." But, yeah, if there were a stronger tradition in place, it might make that kind of transition easier.
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2006, 03:19:34 pm »
Though if you don't, I will! (Speaking of which, what the hell does that line mean? I've always found it a little weird.)

Well, at least it's given rise to some good captions as Ennis replies: "Be my guest" and "Go right ahead!" and the like.

It *is* a weird line. I've been thinking that the vicar senses more than the normal tension in the air - Ennis probably is radiating much more mixed-up determination and reluctance than your normal groom - so perhaps he felt the need to break the tension with a bit of humour. Or perhaps he figured Ennis needed an additional spur to get on with it? Or perhaps he was just the kind of person who couldn't stop himself from telling misplaced jokes at the most inappropriate of times.

Yup, multiple meanings to *that* line for sure!  ;)

Which reminds me of another topic I've been curious about - The Del Mar family and their church involvement. It's mentioned several times throughout the film - it would be interesting to explore that a bit, and what it meant to Ennis, Alma and their daughters respectively. But I honestly do not feel comfortable posting threads here just yet - so as for a new "One or multiple meaning of lines" thread - please do go right ahead!  :)


Offline nakymaton

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2006, 03:29:07 pm »
maybe it would work better to just list lines and see how many different interpretations we can come up with. Either way, go ahead and start a thread! No one's too new, and it's your good idea. Though if you don't, I will! (Speaking of which, what the hell does that line mean? I've always found it a little weird.)
That would be fun. Heck, we could just go through the screenplay and list a different line each day, and see how many different interpretations we could come up with. (Probably "Hunnh?" will have the most possible readings. :D )

And then we can start on the multiple interpretations of every one of Ennis's facial expressions. :D (Jack's, too, but Ennis in particular says so much without words.)

(And you didn't sound teacher-y. :D)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2006, 03:44:52 pm »
Yay! We can keep these threads going for months and months. I would gladly spend that much time scrutinizing every single one of Ennis' facial expressions. (Hell, I already have spent that much time doing that!  ;))