Author Topic: Ennis and Old Man Twist  (Read 27501 times)

Offline opinionista

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2006, 09:50:22 am »
Quote
You have to remember that the taking of the shirts activity is only in the movie, Annie Proulx didn't write how Ennis got the shirts out of the Twist house. When the location of the story changes from Lightning Flat to Signal were Ennis is at the car wash washing the Stoutamire Ranch horse blankets and after he buys a Brokeback Mountain postcard at Higgins' Gift shop, we discover that Ennis has the shirts. The "it" in the quote refers to the postcard.

Annie Proulx does write about Jack's mom offering Ennis to go up to his room, and Ennis finding the shirts in the closet. I assumed Jack's parents knew about them from the short story, not from the movie. I think it's pretty much implied Jack's parent suspected there was something different about his son and that Ennis might be part of the reason. They also knew he took the shirts.

From the short story:

Ennis sat at the kitchen table with Jack's father. Jack's mother, stout and careful in her movements as though recovering from an operation, said "Want some coffee, don't you? Piece a cherry cake?

"Thank you Ma'am, I'll take a cup of coffee but I can't eat no cake just now.

The oldman sat silent, his hands folded on the plastic tablecloth, staring at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression...


« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 10:37:14 am by opinionista »
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tiawahcowboy

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2006, 10:45:53 am »
Annie Proulx does write about Jack's mom offering Ennis to go up to his room, and Ennis finding the shirts in the closet. I assumed Jack's parents knew about them from the short story, not from the movie. I think it's pretty much implied Jack's parent suspected there was something different about his son and that Ennis might be part of the reason. They also knew he took the shirts.

From the short story:

Ennis sat at the kitchen table with Jack's father. Jack's mother, stout and careful in her movements as though recovering from an operation, said "Want some coffee, don't you? Piece a cherry cake?

"Thank you Ma'am, I'll take a cup of coffee but I can't eat no cake just now.

The oldman sat silent, his hands folded on the plastic tablecloth, staring at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression...


Knowing what? How about the whole paragraph where that comes from?

Quote
The old man sat silent, his hands folded on the plastic tablecloth, staring at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression. Ennis recognized in him a not uncommon type with the hard need to be the stud duck in the pond. He couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them, took a breath.

I think that Mr. Twist was a person who prejudged people before he even got to know them. I think that if old man had never known whom Ennis Del Mar was and had seen him on the street in Lightning Flat, he would have looked at Ennis with that very same "angry, knowing expression."  More than likely John C. Twist, Sr. looked at most folks that way. He was an angry man all of Jack's life. The only time that the expression, "stud duck," is used in the story is in the above quoted paragraph.

If you had never seen the movie and only read the original short story, do you think that Jack's parents would have known that Ennis was just more than just a friend of Jack's and that Ennis actually took the shirts with his mother's permission?

In the way that Annie Proulx described both Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar, there would be no way that Jack's parents would have even known that their only child had a sexual relationship with Ennis, too. I think that someone else here posted something similar to that effect.

I really think that Jack's father, Mr. John C. Twist, Sr., really did not want to know his son very well and had his mind already made up about the boy from an early age. He might not have really liked children that much in the first place, especially when he both physically abused Jack by using a belt on him, instead of just helping him take better aim at the toilet bowl when Jack had to pee, and, in a way, sexually abused little Jack taking out his own penis and urinating all over Jack as additional punishment.

I say it was sexual abuse because the old man used his penis to punish Jack. That, in my opinion, fits the same category of emotional rape.

While Annie Proulx might say in an interview that Ennis took the shirts with permission, I really believe that her Ennis Del Mar stole his shirt back and took Jack's shirt along with it.

And, considering what kind of coat Ennis wore in the movie and the fact that it was very loose-fitting, he could have taken the shirts by either hiding them under his coat (inside of his shirt) or actually wearing them under his own shirt without Jack's folks even know it.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 10:58:55 am by tiawahcowboy »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2006, 09:54:39 pm »
Just bumping.
8)
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2006, 10:11:43 pm »
I'm bumping this one because John Twist seems to have become a topic of discussion around here quite a bit lately.
cheers
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2006, 12:38:20 am »
Clearly you're captured the zeitgeist, because I just finished writing a humongous post about John Twist on Questoinnaires 2 thread.

Should I copy it here?


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2006, 01:15:20 am »
LOL!  I don't know... you're certainly welcome to copy that other (very excellent) post if you'd like.  The thread you're talking about is the reason I bumped this one.
 ;)
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Offline Rayn

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2006, 11:57:11 am »
So, we've discussed both here and on the old board many amazing aspects of the interaction between Jack's Mom and Ennis.  I'd like to see more discussion about the interaction with the father.  This topic came up in another conversation and I thought it was worth a thread...

If Jack's dream had come true of Ennis coming up to Lightning Flat to live and help run the ranch... Can anybody imagine how Ennis and John Twist could have co-existed on the same ranch?  The idea just makes me smile.  I think things would have been great with Mrs. Twist (a new mother-figure for Ennis the orphan).  But, the idea of Ennis and Mr. Twist clashing on a daily basis is just amazing. 

On a more serious note, in the book it's made pretty clear (and it's hinted in the film) that John Twist was pretty abusive to Jack.  How would Ennis have reacted to seeing Jack berated by his father?


I can't imagine Ennis and Jack on the Twist ranch. There was too much anger in Ennis and Old Man Twist for them to work the same ranch.   And even if Ennis started a confrontation when cause his anger got the better of him at times, he didn't like confrontation.  And you can bet there'd have been confrontations if Ennis were there.

Now, Ennis was damned polite when at the Twist ranch but he was completely ill at ease.  No one likes to be around a hateful person especially if the hate is directed at them and John Twist was a bitter, hateful old bastard, meaner than a rattler-- with more venom than one. Old Man Twist could burn the paint off a pickup truck with the hate he had in his eyes!  Ennis wouldn't take any abuse nor stood for seeing Jack abused either.  Naw, it never would ‘a happened.  That's what I think

I can imagine Ennis and Jack working their own place if times and things had been different, but never the Twist ranch, not no way not no how.   
 
Rayn
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 12:06:34 pm by Rayn »

Offline stevenedel

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2006, 01:42:08 pm »
I didn't read all the posts here, so maybe this is redundant, but my overriding impression has always been that John Twist does not hate his son, but merely holds him in contempt. He regards Jack as a wet noodle, a spineless dreamer full of ideas that come to nothing. Interestingly, he shares that view with Lureen, who depicts him as an inconsequential dreamer too (as well as a boozer): "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring." Both seem angry because Jack was never any help to them, and I do feel their view, however unsympathetic, carries some weight: both Twist and Lureen spent far more time with Jack than Ennis ever did; both, unlike Ennis, know how Jack (dys?)functioned in everyday life. Even the script says, in the tractor demo scene, that there is an air of boyish inanity about him. It makes me wonder how and even if Jack's dream of a 'sweet life' with Ennis could ever have really worked out.

What I also find interesting is that, in the movie at least, Jack does not seem to hate his father. He goes up to Lightning Flat to help him out occasionally; and he speaks of him with admiration when he tells Ennis John Twist used to be a well-known bull-rider in his day. In fact, Jack is trying to be what his father was, and his main disappointment seems to be that John Twist never taught him the tricks of the trade, nor showed any interest in his son's riding.

(It is very tempting to read all that on a metaphorical level, with bull-riding an obvious simile for gay lovemaking - the implication being that John Twist is gay, too, and angry and bitter because his son actively tried to lead the life he himself never had. In that case, his contempt may well be a cover-up for the reverse - a classically Freudian reaction-formation; and his refusal to let Ennis take the ashes to the mountain in essence amounts to a kind of posthumous revenge: "I had to fit in, so I'll make him fit in, too". ??? Hmm. Maybe that's taking things a little too far...).
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2006, 05:22:58 pm »
Well put and interesting observations, stevenedel.

BTW, I'd like to mention that there's another thread in which a discussion of Old Man Twist is currently going on that some people might find interesting:

Quote
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=3148.0

(The John Twist part begins at the end of the first page and continues through much of the second.)

There's a lot of overlap in the discussion here and the one on the other thread, so I wish we could find a way to get them together. Especially because the John Twist discussion is very interesting, and some people might not find it because it is not directly connected to the main topic of the thread. I'd like to get them all together, but once again I'm stymied by technological complications. But I encourage anyone interested in one to also check out the other.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2006, 07:54:48 pm »
(It is very tempting to read all that on a metaphorical level, with bull-riding an obvious simile for gay lovemaking - the implication being that John Twist is gay, too, and angry and bitter because his son actively tried to lead the life he himself never had. In that case, his contempt may well be a cover-up for the reverse - a classically Freudian reaction-formation; and his refusal to let Ennis take the ashes to the mountain in essence amounts to a kind of posthumous revenge: "I had to fit in, so I'll make him fit in, too". ??? Hmm. Maybe that's taking things a little too far...).

Wow!  I've never thought of that possibility.  Very interesting observation. Yup, the thread latjoreme mentions is very interesting to this line of thinking because the debate over there is over whether or not John Twist is really homophobic or just an asshole in a generalized sense (not specifically or exclusively homophobic).  If a reading can be put forth that John Twist is a super-closeted gay man then the two issues might be very closely linked.

On another note, I do think that Jack strongly dislikes his father.  Maybe "hate" is too strong a word.  But, he seems very down on his father during the early bar chat with Ennis and he sounds almost spiteful when he talks later about his father's rodeo career.
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