Author Topic: Ennis and Old Man Twist  (Read 27471 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2007, 11:01:09 pm »
Bumping since John Twist, Sr. seems to be coming up frequently in other discussions around here lately.

 :-*
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2007, 01:33:58 am »
Bumping since John Twist, Sr. seems to be coming up frequently in other discussions around here lately.

 :-*

Good idea, Amanda! I had thought of starting a new thread, after participating in a John Twist discussion earlier today. But this is even better.

So let's lay the OMT issues out on the table:

-- Why didn't OMT ever teach Jack a thing or go see him ride?

-- What did he know or suspect about Jack? How about Jack and Ennis? How about Jack and Randall?

-- Was he a mean SOB through and through, or was he genuinely grieving Jack (not mutually exclusive, acutually)?

-- Was he homophobic?

-- Why didn't he let Ennis take the ashes?

-- When he insisted Jack be buried in the "family plot," what did he mean -- was that an allusion to what we think of as (anti-gay) family values, or simply an assertion of control, or something else entirely?

-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?

-- How does story-OMT differ from movie-OMT? Can you imagine movie-OMT participating in the peeing-on-Jack scene that was in the story but omitted from the movie?


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2007, 02:56:42 am »
-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?

No. He had every opportunity to see what was going on and take action or raise an objection while Jack's mother was putting the shirts in the paper bag, and he does not.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2007, 04:15:31 am »
No. He had every opportunity to see what was going on and take action or raise an objection while Jack's mother was putting the shirts in the paper bag, and he does not.

See?  He's not all bad!  ;)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2007, 01:37:26 pm »
Good idea, Amanda! I had thought of starting a new thread, after participating in a John Twist discussion earlier today. But this is even better.

So let's lay the OMT issues out on the table:

-- Why didn't OMT ever teach Jack a thing or go see him ride?

Because bullriding was a part of OMT's youth that he had set aside and negated.

Quote
-- What did he know or suspect about Jack? How about Jack and Ennis? How about Jack and Randall?

He knew Jack's/Ennis's/Randall's true nature. 'member he started out by saying, "I know where Brokeback Mountain is."

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-- Was he a mean SOB through and through, or was he genuinely grieving Jack (not mutually exclusive, acutually)?

You answered your question! Yes, and yes.

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-- Was he homophobic?

I think that's oversimplifying it. Human beings are very fearful generally of anything unique or different and they shrink from anyone who doesn't fit into the pack, which covers most all of us.

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-- Why didn't he let Ennis take the ashes?

I think just an instinctive lashing out at Ennis, Jack, and his wife. Blindly doing whatever he could to regain his stud duck status. I think it was mainly a decision to hurt his wife. (My personal agenda's slipping out there!)

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-- When he insisted Jack be buried in the "family plot," what did he mean -- was that an allusion to what we think of as (anti-gay) family values, or simply an assertion of control, or something else entirely?

OMT felt that since he had had to give up his own life to the demands of society, that Jack should too.

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-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?

OMT did see the shirt, and let him take it. What he did NOT see was the second shirt encased in the first.

Quote
-- How does story-OMT differ from movie-OMT? Can you imagine movie-OMT participating in the peeing-on-Jack scene that was in the story but omitted from the movie?


Movie OMT is more sympathetic (yeah, that's right!) and complex. Story OMT is described as a stud duck but movie OMT is a defeated man. OMT has Jack's blue eyes in the movie but in the story Ennis can't see Jack in either one of them. In fact, the story leads me to believe that OMT isn't really even Jack's father. But yes I can see movie OMT lashing out in anger at Jack when he was younger.

Thanks for asking these questions, Katherine!
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2007, 03:36:11 pm »
OMT did see the shirt, and let him take it. What he did NOT see was the second shirt encased in the first.

Well, yes, but it was Ennis's own shirt inside Jack's shirt. He could hardly have objected to Ennis taking back his own property--even after almost twenty years.  :D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2007, 03:41:47 pm »
OK, so I'm going to make like Lee and answer this questionnaire style!

-- Why didn't OMT ever teach Jack a thing or go see him ride?
He was generally disinterested in Jack as well as abusive.  He probably didn't want to spare the time it would have taken to really train him.  I don't think it was due to a concern for Jack's safety or a desire to keep Jack from trying bull-riding due to issues of safety.

-- What did he know or suspect about Jack? How about Jack and Ennis? How about Jack and Randall?
I think he knew about both Ennis and Randall being Jack's lovers.  My guess, just based on what Old Man Twist actually says to Ennis is that Jack wasn't very discrete about this when he was home.  My sense also from the conversation between Ennis and OMT is that OMT was actually holding back some of what he knew.  Sort of torturing Ennis in a teasing way by letting him know *just a little bit* of how much OMT knew about Jack and Ennis and Jack's other life.

-- Was he a mean SOB through and through, or was he genuinely grieving Jack (not mutually exclusive, acutually)?
I have no idea if he was genuinely grieving Jack.  I don't feel like I have a lot of insight into how the psychology of an abusive parent works.  I don't know if there's a simultaneous capacity for grief/love along side the bitterness/neglect/abuse.  But yes, he seems to have been a mean SOB through and through for whatever reason. 

-- Was he homophobic?
Well, I recall this question has led to some really interesting debates.  I remember that there's a way to read his behavior as actually not homophobic but just hateful and mean-spirited on a general level.  My guess is that he was also misogynist to his wife, unfriendly to his neighbors, etc., etc.   He was probably homophobic on the same level that he was angry with the rest of the world.  I think my answers here are sounding very harsh on Mr. Twist... and a lot of this is fueled by what we know about him from the short story.  Whether or not his abusiveness, etc. is communicated at the same level in the film is an open question.  My guess is that most casual viewers of BBM would just see him as a mean/ grumpy old man.

-- Why didn't he let Ennis take the ashes?
I think it was mainly a show of possessiveness.  A bit of the alpha-dog coming out.  The argument that he didn't let Ennis take them because he understood Ennis's lack of commitment to Jack is *really* interesting.  If you take that idea as an entry point into interpreting the whole scene, OMT comes across very differently.  If you see it as OMT punishing Ennis for not fulfilling Jack's hope of working on Lightning Flat together, then OMT's comment about the "other fellow" might be seen as OMT being more invested in Jack's happiness and ability to move-on from Ennis than is probably the case.  While I find this interpretation really fascinating, I think it gives OMT too much credit as far as his genuine interest in Jack and Jack's happiness for its own sake.  Nevermind a concern for Ennis himself.


-- When he insisted Jack be buried in the "family plot," what did he mean -- was that an allusion to what we think of as (anti-gay) family values, or simply an assertion of control, or something else entirely?
Again, I just think this is willful possessiveness and a desire to show Ennis that he didn't have a "legitimate" claim on Jack.

-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?
I think, that while OMT wants to show Ennis who's boss in this scene, he's probably also intimidated by Ennis.  I think we're supposed to understand Ennis as a very intimidating guy to all but the people who love hime/ who he loves.  My guess is that OMT would guage that an attempt to wrestle the shirts away from Ennis might cause the whole situation to escalate into something that would be out of OMT's control. I'm sure Ennis is well above coming to blows with a small old man (especially in front of a nice lady like Ma Twist), but the significance of those shirts and Ennis's fragile state at the time could have turned the scene into something very angry and uncomfortable if OMT had tried to take the shirts.  I think we're also supposed to see that only Mrs. Twist understands what these shirts are.  OMT may not even have a clue that they were in Jack's room or that they mean anything at all.

-- How does story-OMT differ from movie-OMT? Can you imagine movie-OMT participating in the peeing-on-Jack scene that was in the story but omitted from the movie?
I think the filmmakers try very hard to demonstrate that OMT is an un-likeable character.  But, Jack never says anything to really demonstrate to the audience how bad the situation really was for him as a kid.  I think we're supposed to interpret Ma Twist's behavior as fearful in nature when it comes to her husband (and also her behavior I think is meant to demonstrate how skillful she's become at living her live or doing things in a sneaky way to avoid the displeasure or wrath of her husband).  But all this is pretty subtly suggested in the film.  Again, like I said above, in the film OMT just appears spiteful and grumpy.  In the book his abusiveness is demonstrated on a much different level.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2007, 03:50:53 pm »
Well, yes, but it was Ennis's own shirt inside Jack's shirt. He could hardly have objected to Ennis taking back his own property--even after almost twenty years.  :D

Yes, but OMT wouldn't have known that. I think Ennis shields the shirts from OMT as part of his general paranoia. OMT wouldn't have begrudged him the shirts IMO.

It is a common literary device to have an old man come on at the end of a story and lend special insight. I think story and movie OMT serve this role. This is a pivotal role and scene, IMO, even apart from the room and shirts.

OMT is like Jehovah, the judging and wrathful god and Mary Twist is the forgiving and grace-giving Madonna.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2007, 06:29:53 pm »
Oh, this is a  fun way to do it! We should do a bunch of threads like this about different characters or issues. Anyway:

-- Why didn't OMT ever teach Jack a thing or go see him ride?

Because above all else, he was a jerk.

-- What did he know or suspect about Jack? How about Jack and Ennis? How about Jack and Randall?

He knew Jack was gay ("I know where Brokeback Mountain is") and that J & E were lovers. He knew there was another man in Jack's life, but he didn't know the guy's name. Someone recently said that it's very significant that Randall is never actually named by OMT (and that in fact the naming or not naming of characters is apparently significant throughout the story).

-- Was he a mean SOB through and through, or was he genuinely grieving Jack (not mutually exclusive, actually)?

Both.

-- Was he homophobic?

Not as far as we know. He says nothing that's unequivocally homophobic -- in fact (I know I've said this many times, but here goes again for the official record) doesn't seem to mind that Jack is planning to leave his wife and live with another man, only that he never carried out the plans and therefore didn't lick the ranch into shape. I'm not saying OMT should be elected president of the local PFLAG chapter. But his bitterness and anger just happen to be directed elsewhere, for whatever reason.

It would have been very easy for Annie Proulx and the filmmakers to have OMT something that indicated homophobia, or disapproval of Jack's sexuality. A single word or two inserted into his monologue would do it. For that matter, you would hardly expect him NOT to say something homophobic, given the culture and his age and so forth. But he doesn't, and I think that's not an accident. Especially in view of the way we're set up to assume he IS homophobic, that in fact that was the root of his conflicts with Jack. And it's such an interesting parallel and contrast with Ennis' dad, who Ennis usually speaks so well of that we're led to believe HE is an OK guy, until we find out he isn't.

If neither of Jack's parents are homophobic, it helps explain why Jack is fairly well adjusted about his sexuality. Because again Ennis, in contrast, is not well adjusted largely because of his own dad.

The whole story and movie are about people not always being what they seem or what you'd expect. A non-homophobic OMT would certainly fit that description.



-- Why didn't he let Ennis take the ashes?


Hmm ... Well, I really like the theory about denying Ennis the ashes as punishment for letting Jack down -- it would be poignant and kind of romantic. I don't totally buy it, though. I think mainly he just wanted to assert control and be a bastard. After all, if he were that concerned about his son, you'd think he'd at least see that his wishes was carried out, about the ashes I mean, even if it meant scattering them himself.


-- When he insisted Jack be buried in the "family plot," what did he mean -- was that an allusion to what we think of as (anti-gay) family values, or simply an assertion of control, or something else entirely?


IMO, this is the only thing OMT says that could be viewed as a sign of homophobia. "Family plot" carries an echo of "family values" and plot is a synonym for story -- suggesting that, in the end, he's forcing Jack to conform to society's rules, to be in the story involving a traditional family. And when he complains that Jack "thought he was too special," he could be saying he's become high-falutin since he got wealthy, or he could mean special as in atypical -- i.e., gay. So in other words, he could be saying "Jack thought that he could break society's rules by being gay." But in the end, he couldn't.

-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?

No, he wasn't up to any agression beyond the verbal. But part of the reason Ennis shelters them is not that he thinks OMT will overpower him and wrest them away, but just to keep them private and pure.

-- How does story-OMT differ from movie-OMT? Can you imagine movie-OMT participating in the peeing-on-Jack scene that was in the story but omitted from the movie?

The peeing scene is unfilmable and would have wrecked the emotional flow of that whole bedroom scene. But beyond that, movie-OMT is simply a more sympathetic character than story-OMT (just as movie-Mrs. Twist is a far more sympathetic character than story-Mrs. Twist).



Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2007, 10:52:44 am »
-- Why didn't OMT ever teach Jack a thing or go see him ride?

Because he was not interested in Jack. He was a cold and mean parent. And person for that matter. A misanthrop. I can't picture him being friendly to anyone


-- What did he know or suspect about Jack? How about Jack and Ennis? How about Jack and Randall?

Yep, he knew Jack was gay. He knew about Ennis and Jack. And he concluded about Jack and that neighbour fella.

-- Was he a mean SOB through and through, or was he genuinely grieving Jack (not mutually exclusive, acutually)?

I think he was a mean SOB through and through. No, he didn't grieve Jack.

-- Was he homophobic?

I agree completely with Katherine on that. I think it's remarkable that neither Annie nor Ang let him show homophobia, but instead he seems more pi$$ed that it never came to pass (E&J helping in on the ranch).
I think he would have been willing to let Ennis and Jack live together on his ranch. I think he would have settled for some kind of truce because they would have provided the needed help for him.



-- Why didn't he let Ennis take the ashes?

I don't buy the theory about OMT punishing Ennis at all. It was a final punishment against Jack. To show who is the boss and that Jack wasn't anything so goddamn special. The stud duck thing.


-- When he insisted Jack be buried in the "family plot," what did he mean -- was that an allusion to what we think of as (anti-gay) family values, or simply an assertion of control, or something else entirely?

In the first place an assertation of control, see above question. Will think some more on this one about family plot and family values. Hm...


-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?

No. OMT did see the shirt. But he decided to ignore it. Like Lee already said, he didn't know about the TWO shirts and didn't sense their importance (but Jack's mother knew). I don't think he was intimidated by Ennis, like Amanda suggested. Not in the state Ennis was in when he visited the Twist ranch. Nothing intimidating about him then. In contrast, his guards were down, he let them see him 'weak', defeated and grieving. Not willingly, but because he simply couldn't act any different.


-- How does story-OMT differ from movie-OMT? Can you imagine movie-OMT participating in the peeing-on-Jack scene that was in the story but omitted from the movie?

Yes, I can imagine movie OMT doing this. I saw the movie first and therefore didn't know about the peeing scene, but I remember I felt he was a mean old bastard even before reading the story.