Author Topic: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way  (Read 121671 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #260 on: May 01, 2007, 11:30:49 pm »
How is it possible that the last post in this thread was way back in January?
 :o

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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #261 on: May 03, 2007, 11:45:56 am »
OK...here's more!

When Ennis and Jack are parting company after their time on BBM, Ennis says at one point near the truck, "Like I said, Alma and me, we's gettin married in November...."

Clearly they had a conversationless trip down the mountain, a berating from Aguirre, and a prospect of separation; three of the most uneasy things for a person--moving, changing jobs, changing relationship. I think Ennis was reaching out for a comment from Jack; Ennis was looking for some way to begin a dialog. He was fishing for 'are you sure you want to do that?' or 'can I come up for the wedding?'...something to carry the comment to the next level. The more simple interpretation and hence the double meaning is that Ennis was drawing his line in the sand, telling Jack his life is planned and in a different direction.

I think it is the former. This is classic ennis--completely inward with his inner door cracked ever so slightly, peering out, hoping that someone will kick it open. Such is what makes him totally irresistible.

Offline nic

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #262 on: May 03, 2007, 12:52:08 pm »
Good points HK & I agree on the whole, speaking as an Ennis too. I actually think both suggested meanings are true, that Ennis is working both of them. The former is a given but I don't think he is very aware he is of the "disguised ask".  He might be deep down, where usually he only dares peek in, hoping Jack will respond with something that will force the issue one way or the other.  But this is dangerous, cos of course if Jack declared undying love Ennis might just react OTT with another punch or worse.  Ennis himself doesn't know how he'd react & isn't thinking "straight" at all (!)  His feelings for Jack are so intense that he can't help come out with this disguised ask of a comment, but then his feelings are also very messed up so of course he hasn't thought anything through & is winging it, just wanting the interaction to be done with despite having the inner need for Jack deep in his heart.   I can well imagine him deliberately not thinking of anything on the way down, forcing himself to think about the sheep or anything that is not Jack, related to Jack or the future. 

Then the latter, I think he is using this interpretation to bolster his own internal argument of not being queer etc .  Nothing sensible can come of having this dichotomy, it's just another communication problem & not unique to Ennis or BBM by any means. 
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #263 on: May 03, 2007, 01:10:26 pm »
thanks nic, enjoyed your insights. I think, in addition, the silent trek down the mountain was also time spend pondering 'what am I going to say?' (for both of them) when the imminent, final parting would be at hand.

Most people lean toward Jake as their hero and favorite on every level. But, to me, it is Ennis who captures all intriegue, mystery, desire, masculinity, deep-seated feelings that are honest and true. The "trapped" feelings he tries to express in double-meaninged ways as noted here or in unspoken communication are similar to how Hitchcock created his attractive women heroines. the 'fire under the ice' character of grace kelly and others is on par with how Ennis' character moves through the story. THAT makes him a total attractive man to me rather than viewing this as a negative or fault by many.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #264 on: May 03, 2007, 01:30:27 pm »
One night in the chatroom, somebody asked what line everybody thought captured the themes of BBM in a nutshell. So we started naming the obvious ones, "If you can't fix it ..." "Ain't no reins ..." and so on. But then people started getting more adventuresome and out there: "No more beans ..." "This is a TIAGDBOAUS," "I think my dad was right"  "He's going to be buried in the family plot" -- and we noticed that a lot of those summed up the themes really well, too!

It's like you can almost randomly pick any line in the movie and see a double meaning to it, often one that holds much larger ideas.

Take my username. When Alma Jr. says "Mommy, I need crayons," I think she's expressing a need we all have for crayons in our lives -- that is, for color, beauty, love, happiness, joy. Ennis always denied himself crayons.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #265 on: May 04, 2007, 12:04:00 am »
OK...here's more!

When Ennis and Jack are parting company after their time on BBM, Ennis says at one point near the truck, "Like I said, Alma and me, we's gettin married in November...."

Clearly they had a conversationless trip down the mountain, a berating from Aguirre, and a prospect of separation; three of the most uneasy things for a person--moving, changing jobs, changing relationship. I think Ennis was reaching out for a comment from Jack; Ennis was looking for some way to begin a dialog. He was fishing for 'are you sure you want to do that?' or 'can I come up for the wedding?'...something to carry the comment to the next level. The more simple interpretation and hence the double meaning is that Ennis was drawing his line in the sand, telling Jack his life is planned and in a different direction.

I think it is the former. This is classic ennis--completely inward with his inner door cracked ever so slightly, peering out, hoping that someone will kick it open. Such is what makes him totally irresistible.


This scene is soooo complicated.  And, I do think that Ennis is fishing for some kind of support from Jack here.  He has relied on Jack to take the lead in pushing their relationship/ situation along and now I do think he's tacitly hoping that Jack might have some kind of solution to his dilemma regarding being engaged to Alma.

But, the ever-talkative Jack never responds to the topic of Alma or the wedding when Ennis brings it up.  When Ennis first tells Jack that he's engaged to Alma, Jack almost pointedly and deliberately ignores the comment and changes the subject.

I wonder if important silences throughout the film could be an interesting side-topic here.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #266 on: May 04, 2007, 09:24:49 am »
I wonder if important silences throughout the film could be an interesting side-topic here.

Good idea! Or lines that don't get answered.

I agree with you all that Ennis is hoping that Jack will somehow do something about the situation, including the marriage plans. Even the way he phrases it. Jack asks whether he'll be back next year, and Ennis doesn't say "no," or even or "I don't think so" or "I doubt it." He says "maybe not ..." as if leaving open the possibility that he could. And then when he mentions the marriage and his work plans, he doesn't sound very sure about them.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #267 on: May 04, 2007, 09:54:26 am »
Quote
I wonder if important silences throughout the film could be an interesting side-topic here.

I agrree with you and Katherine. I think it deserves its own topic. Amanda, would you go on and open it?

Another important silence follows shortly after. For me, it's the most important silence in this scene:

"Guess I'll see you around..."

Jack nods and says a meager and defeated "Right".

But then, Ennis does not go. He lingers and waits, but neither of them says a word. A heavy and loaded silence.
Jack, who otherwise has the gift of the gab, doesn't say a goddamn word. He doesn't read Ennis' hesitation correctly (both, Ennis' hesitation and uncertainty in his words about his future and his hesitation to go).

This silence marks a very crucial moment in the movie. Who knows what might have been, had Jack said a word to keep Ennis from going.

I can think of more important silences, but I'll wait for Amanda to open a new thread.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #268 on: May 04, 2007, 10:41:20 am »
a separate thread on "silences" is interesting, but it is a central theme in most of the threads/discussions about Ennis' inward, withholding personality already. Nice to reopen those thoughts, though, and retrace/add to that which has been discussed. Of course, a key "silent" moment was Ennis' silent response to "...miss you so much I can hardly stand it".

but back to the thought at hand here...Ennis' attempt to get a response from Jack was very much like the end of a date on the porch--do you ask for another date? Do you plan to talk tomorrow? The men knew their next steps were taking them out of reach and they simply did not know how to hold onto the macho thing to do--buck up and handle being 'shipped off'--but at the same time yield to their young (only 19) emotions of, at minimum, a strong puppy love.

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #269 on: May 18, 2007, 06:02:00 am »
Penthesilea, IMO more is said through silence then with dialogue. Especially with BBM:  Witness the entire first meeting of J&E
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"