Author Topic: Why the Lie?  (Read 52354 times)

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Why the Lie?
« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2006, 11:44:22 pm »
In the book and film lends itself as well that the only time Jack and Ennis were on Brokeback was in 1963.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Why the Lie?
« Reply #101 on: August 05, 2006, 01:52:10 am »
I truly do think that Ennis wanted to live with Jack, but all of his fears, etc. held him back.   Am I being too simplistic here?  It seems important to the romance of the film to believe that on some level Ennis wished he could fulfill Jack's dream.  Maybe he only gets this after Jack's death... but it really worries me that Jack would think that Ennis didn's want the dream of the cow and calf operation too.  I don't sense Ennis's resistance at the level of "want".

Well, you know you'll get no argument from me on your view. I think Ennis really did want it, even if he hardly dared admit so to himself. I've always taken Jack's line to be a bit influenced by anger and bitterness. You know how, if you feel angry at or betrayed by someone you love, you'll try to portray them as being more cruel or indifferent than they actually are? Or, at worst, Jack might have just straightforwardly meant that Ennis didn't want it because he was too homophobic and afraid to want it.

But I don't think Jack thought that Ennis didn't want it for lack of love, or that he wouldn't have wanted it in an ideal world. He knew that would have been Ennis' dream come true, had Ennis felt circumstances allowed it.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Why the Lie?
« Reply #102 on: August 13, 2006, 07:32:55 pm »
Bump!
 ;D
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline dly64

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Re: Why the Lie?
« Reply #103 on: August 16, 2006, 10:40:23 am »
It is really interesting that both Ennis and Jack never mentioned the fact that they were on Brokeback together that summer to there respective wives.  Maybe this has something to do with Ang Lee's statement that he sees their relationship as "something private and precious and they cannot articulate..."  Primarily here both Ennis and Jack (on their own) make gestures to keep the circumstances of their summer as private as possible to preserve the precious feeling about it. (Try saying the last half of that sentence 10 times fast. lol).  So, clearly they can't articulate anything about this for a huge number of reasons (either to their wives or in their own heads often)... and all of this emerges in the form of Ennis's little lie. "We were fishing buddies."  It's amazing how something so seemingly simple can become sooo complex.

His exact words are:

I come by to say that if you want me to take his ashes up there on Brokeback like his wife said he wanted, I'd be proud to.


He also uses Brokeback in the conversation with Lureen. So he only ever says the name after jack is dead.  :'(


But I think the point you made works in either case -- Ennis is sort of quietly acknowledging to Lureen that there was something important between him and Jack, even though neither one says anything directly about it.


I found this thread and read through the whole thing. There are topics that I don’t want to dredge up … for obvious reasons. But, the three quotes above are all very interesting to me and something else I had not previously considered. (BTW, Katherine … I had never heard of the asphalt or movie theater interpretations … very enlightening!)

The whole idea of seeing “Brokeback” as something personal and special to both Jack and Ennis did not escape me. What I did not discern was the thought that even mentioning the word “Brokeback” somehow diminished the intimacy that Jack and Ennis experienced. It was mentioned somewhere in this thread that the only time Jack used the word “Brokeback” was in the motel room when he said, “Brokeback got us good, don’t it.” Jack did, however, use it one other time and that was during the lake scene when he said, “All we got now, is Brokeback Mountain! Everything’s built on that. That’s all we got, boy, f**king all.” This is another “bookend” in the film … the use of “Brokeback” at the time of their reunion and at their last time together. It is interesting to note how “Brokeback” was used. The first time, Jack referred to “Brokeback” in terms of it being an idyllic place. The last time, Jack inferred that it was a place where their relationship became stuck. What I mean by this is that Ennis could not translate/ transfer his lack of inhibitions and his intensity of feeling post mountain. Furthermore, the only way Ennis could recapture their time on BBM was “out in the middle of nowhere.” 

Again, I read somewhere in this thread about Ennis’ use of “Brokeback” after Jack died as a way to acknowledge his love for Jack. Although I had never thought of it in those terms, it makes sense. Ennis used it twice … with Lureen (which confirmed her suspicions that Jack was gay) and with Jack’s parents (which reinforced the knowledge that Jack was gay). After that, however, he has a postcard of BBM in the closet with the shirts.
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Why the Lie?
« Reply #104 on: August 16, 2006, 01:24:06 pm »
Again, I read somewhere in this thread about Ennis’ use of “Brokeback” after Jack died as a way to acknowledge his love for Jack. Although I had never thought of it in those terms, it makes sense. Ennis used it twice … with Lureen (which confirmed her suspicions that Jack was gay) and with Jack’s parents (which reinforced the knowledge that Jack was gay). After that, however, he has a postcard of BBM in the closet with the shirts.

I was just thinking about this yesterday. In the short story, when he orders a postcard of Brokeback from the gift-shop lady, symbolically it's a little like Ennis coming out, in a way. Albeit in code that she wouldn't possibly understand.


Offline dly64

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Re: Why the Lie?
« Reply #105 on: August 16, 2006, 02:15:04 pm »
I was just thinking about this yesterday. In the short story, when he orders a postcard of Brokeback from the gift-shop lady, symbolically it's a little like Ennis coming out, in a way. Albeit in code that she wouldn't possibly understand.

Never thought of that ... but it is a possibility. Or maybe even his internal acceptance that he is inescapably gay.
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Why the Lie?
« Reply #106 on: September 10, 2006, 10:44:21 pm »
Back to the issue of both Ennis and Jack in their daily lives tip-toeing around the word "Brokeback" and keeping the fact secret that they even worked together in 63...   This seems to be one interesting circumstance where they're right in rhythm with one another... both essentially doing the same thing.  I think it helps show that the bonds of their intimacy stayed very intact even from a distance and shows a tacit agreement that these things are meant for the two of them alone (until Jack is dead of course).

In the book when Ennis buys that postcard it does seem like some sort of a coming out moment in that it's so deliberate.  He even needs to have the thing ordered.  So, he's extremely conscious of what he's doing.  It may be more of an issue of him coming out to himself than to anyone else since the meaning of buying a postcard would be lost on almost anyone else.  I think it's nice that the filmmakers consolidated the "Ennis-coming-out-to-himself" moments to the trailer scene at the end.  It makes that last scene appropriately intense.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Why the Lie?
« Reply #107 on: September 12, 2006, 01:48:32 pm »
I think he lied to Alma because he was so paranoid, he wanted to steer away from any lines of thought that would incriminate him.

Proulx has written in her essay that it is hard to accept, but sometimes the movie tells the story better than the story does. The shifting of things makes more sense in the movie. I am not sure Ennis was acknowledging anything about himself when he wrote back to Jack, he just wanted to see him again. (I feel).
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Why the Lie?
« Reply #108 on: September 12, 2006, 03:03:07 pm »
I think it helps show that the bonds of their intimacy stayed very intact even from a distance and shows a tacit agreement that these things are meant for the two of them alone (until Jack is dead of course).

I've been thinking a lot about bookends lately, and I've decided this is one.

Scene: Ennis gets a postcard. Stares at it, shocked and overjoyed. Alma asks who Jack is. Ennis tells her they're fishing buddies. He doesn't refer directly to Brokeback, and lies about them working together.

Bookend: Ennis gets a postcard. Stares at it, shocked and grief-stricken. Lureen asks, "Who? Who is this?" She has been told they're fishing buddies. Ennis refers directly to Brokeback, and tells the truth about them working together.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Why the Lie?
« Reply #109 on: September 12, 2006, 11:40:00 pm »
Heya Katherine,

That's a really interesting observation.  I agree that it functions as a bookend.  I wonder if it also functions as something like foreshadowing.  The idea of "foreshadowing" has been on my mind a little lately and isn't something I recall much in previous discussions.  In some ways bookends and foreshadowing are related, especially in this film.  But, the idea of foreshadowing seems more traditional.  I mean, are we supposed to be able to pick up subtle clues about the way things are going to end up all the way through the film?  For example, are the guys around the pool table in the Jimbo scene meant to foreshadow the (largely edited out) mechanics?
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie