Why the Lie?

[serious crayons]

I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)

I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)

Thanks, Mel. And back at you -- both of the above are very cool observations, too!

However, regarding the first one, I'm wondering -- does Ennis say Brokeback" when he's talking to the Twists about the ashes (I can't remember exactly! But isn't it something like, "I come by to offer to scatter Jack's ashes on Brokeback Mountain, like his wife said Jack wanted"?) Because if so, it could be significant that it's the first time. In other words, Ennis may be using the word in the same symbolic sense that Old Man Twist does when he says "Tell you what, I know where Brokeback Mountain is ..."  Brokeback = gay. By claiming it for the first time, especially in combination with Jack, Ennis is finally acknowledging the nature of their relationship.

[tiawahcowboy]

I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)

I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)

In the book, the only time time Ennis uses "Brokeback" in a sentence is when he is talking to Lureen and Jack's parents. You are quite right that when Ennis is with Jack from the the Reunion in 1967 until 1983, Jack is the only one who talks about Brokeback.

I say that Ennis said "fishin' buddies" because he actually owned fishing gear. He did have what he needed to go fly fishing for brown trout.

[Mikaela]

His exact words are:

I come by to say that if you want me to take his ashes up there on Brokeback like his wife said he wanted, I'd be proud to.


He also uses Brokeback in the conversation with Lureen. So he only ever says the name after jack is dead. 

[nakymaton]

I do think Ennis didn't tell Alma anything of emotional importance to him about his summer job on the mountain; - but I do think he had to tell her something.

Well, he might have just said "hunnh" or "mmm-hmmm." I mean, this is Ennis, after all. I would assume that, if Alma knew him well enough to be engaged to him, she wouldn't have expected any kind of long, detailed story from him.

Somebody up-thread mentioned that the rodeoing might have just slipped out... that Ennis pauses, as if to collect himself just a little bit, before he tells the "fishing buddy" lie. As if Ennis let out more about that private part of himself than he ever intended to, in the heat of the moment when he saw Jack's postcard.

However, regarding the first one, I'm wondering -- does Ennis say Brokeback" when he's talking to the Twists about the ashes (I can't remember exactly! But isn't it something like, "I come by to offer to scatter Jack's ashes on Brokeback Mountain, like his wife said Jack wanted"?)

Doesn't Ennis say "Brokeback" when he's talking to Lureen? After she says that Jack wanted his ashes scattered there, Ennis manages to choke out something like "Me and Jack herded sheep up on Brokeback in '63." (Don't have the screenplay book in front of me, and can't remember a thing without a written reference.) But I think the point you made works in either case -- Ennis is sort of quietly acknowledging to Lureen that there was something important between him and Jack, even though neither one says anything directly about it.

(That was the line that did me in the first time I saw the movie, by the way. The look on Ennis's face when he finally says "Brokeback" there in that little lonely public phone booth....  )

[tiawahcowboy]

Well, "Brokeback" could have meant "sheep herder" to John C. Twist, Sr. because he was a cattle rancher. It might have been that he did not like the idea that his cattle ranch-raised son herded sheep. Traditionally speaking, ranchers and cowboys don't like sheep nor those that herd them.

[serious crayons]

His exact words are:

I come by to say that if you want me to take his ashes up there on Brokeback like his wife said he wanted, I'd be proud to.

He also uses Brokeback in the conversation with Lureen. So he only ever says the name after jack is dead. 

Thanks, Mikaela! With the addition of "I'd be proud to," my interpretation -- that his use of the word is an acknowlegement -- makes even more sense to me. It implies a contrasting "I was ashamed of our relationship before." And if he says it to Lureen, that underscores it also, because it's that line that tips off Lureen about their relationship.

[starboardlight]

Hey, thanks Starboardlight, that is a wonderful resource!  I have already visited it, and it is rich beyond imagining.  Questions though, stuff at Geocities has a tendency to get dead when the person who hosted it moves on, will BetterMost set up a contingency plan for this possibility?  I certainly hope that we have BetterMost in our lives for a long long long time!

I am a relative newcomer to this wonderful community, (only saw BBM on April 14th if you can believe it) and I can't think of a more opportune time to ask this so here goes:  I have gleaned from what I have read that the IMDb Brokeback Mountain messageboard was attended very early, in fact even before the movie was released.  It got busy in Dec and Jan, and at some point (in Jan?) the serious posters branched off into a Secret Society called Pierre Tremblay, the name of the Assistant Producer of our beloved BBM.  They did it to escape the demonic trolls, and membership in this elite group was by invitation only.  Here comes the question:  (actually 2 or 3 questions):

How and when did the trolls discover that you were all re-grouped at Chez Tremblay?

I understand Pierre Tremblay answered questions and contributed (at the beginning?).  Can you point me in the direction of the threads he contributed to, answered questions, etc?

Actually if one of you original members would compose a short  -- no make that a long story about the beginnings of CT, the founding members, etc, the evolution of the whole Brokeback Mountain phenomenon, IMDB-to-BetterMost, I would find it exceedingly interesting.

please please please!  and thanks!

well CT, wasn't really an invite only club. it was kinda organic but secret. we did invite people, but it was freely open to any one who discovered us. as you know, many were regular posters on the main board. they have really great posts, and people often will check out their post histories. by following their post histories, many people discovered CT and joined the group that way. that's also how the troll discovered CT, unfortunately, but it took them many many month to figure it out, which gave us enough time to bond and actually work through many many ideas about the film. It was never meant to be exclusive. the group did send out invites from time to time to people who we were sure were interested in serious discussion of the film. I'm not sure who originally started CT. I believe Chris_slayer, victoria, and David "studduck" were three of them.

Pierre did answer questions for us. I believe his answers are in the archive. He really did give us a lot of insight into the movie making process.

[starboardlight]

I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)

I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)

very very good point. he doesn't even revisit the mountain with Jack. it's a sacred place in his mind. They never go back there. If he can't do that with Jack, there's no way he bring it up with Alma.

[Mikaela]

Thanks, Mikaela! With the addition of "I'd be proud to," my interpretation -- that his use of the word is an acknowlegement -- makes even more sense to me. It implies a contrasting "I was ashamed of our relationship before." And if he says it to Lureen, that underscores it also, because it's that line that tips off Lureen about their relationship.

It turns out the script (that I referred to in replying to you) has him saying he'd be "proud to", but in the film he actually says he'll be "happy to"! Either way I think what he says certainly is an acknowledgement - though using the word "happy" instead of "proud" seems oxymoronic and very unexpected in this context.... Perhaps it acknowledges how returning to Brokeback to fulfill Jack's last wish would set his own mind at rest a little, in addition to encompassing the "proud to" meaning.

At any rate - "Brokeback" and "happy" so close together in that one sentence of his carry a world of meaning and remembrance!

 

[Brown Eyes]

It turns out the script (that I referred to in replying to you) has him saying he'd be "proud to", but in the film he actually says he'll be "happy to"! Either way I think what he says certainly is an acknowledgement - though using the word "happy" instead of "proud" seems oxymoronic and very unexpected in this context.... Perhaps it acknowledges how returning to Brokeback to fulfill Jack's last wish would set his own mind at rest a little, in addition to encompassing the "proud to" meaning.

At any rate - "Brokeback" and "happy" so close together in that one sentence of his carry a world of meaning and remembrance!

Wow, this is really an interesting point to bring up.  I've always preferred the "proud to" version... I think for the reason that it does feel jarring to use the word "happy" in this scene.  But, Mikaela, I think you're right.  I think maybe Ennis's odd use of the word "happy" in this context does reveal how he really feels about the word Brokeback. 

There's another minor change from book to film that I've always wondered about.  It involves a very different context/ moment in the film.  During the argument scene in the book when Jack is complaining about Ennis never committing to the idea of livig together he says "but you wouldn't do it..."  In the film they change it to "but you didn't want it."  This has always bothered me.  I truly do think that Ennis wanted to live with Jack, but all of his fears, etc. held him back.   Am I being too simplistic here?  It seems important to the romance of the film to believe that on some level Ennis wished he could fulfill Jack's dream.  Maybe he only gets this after Jack's death... but it really worries me that Jack would think that Ennis didn't want the dream of the cow and calf operation too.  I don't sense Ennis's resistance at the level of "want".
 



ps. by the way, bump to a good thread!