Author Topic: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are  (Read 69526 times)

Offline Impish

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Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« on: May 26, 2006, 07:57:18 pm »
I'm a committed atheist; I stopped believing in gods at age 13.  As concerned as I am about the assault on gay rights, I've come to the conclusion that the ever-thinning wall of separation of church and state is the single most important issue facing the U.S. today.  Fixing that would fix so many other issues at the same time.

So I've been investigating books and podcasts on the subject of atheism, the role of science in public policy, etc.,  and was struck by the following.

Again and again, I find this point being made:  that atheists need to take a lesson from the gay community and come out of the closet.  "Look what good it did to the cause of gay rights after more and more people came out," they say, stressing the importance of visibility. 

I'm reminded of a lesbian friend from Canada who lived in my home town for two years.  As she was returning to Nova Scotia at the end of her stay, I asked her about her impressions of the U.S. and Americans after living here.  She didn't need to think about it:  to paraphrase, she said "you have freedom of religion here, but you don't have freedom from religion.  I learned very quickly not to mention that I don't believe in gods, because Americans just freak out."

So I've decided I'm going to come out as an atheist, and have bought some T-shirts so that people will know my stance when I wear them.

The T's say

"Friendly Atheist" (my favorite, as it's the least "in your face")
"Lord, Protect Me From Your Followers"
"I Think, Therefore I'm Atheist."

Anyway, if you don't believe in gods either -- or if you consider yourself agnostic -- I encourage you to come out of the closet, letting those around you know your beliefs.  It's important to increase  our visibility, and to let others know that there is moral behavior without it being caused by fear of a god.

Cheers!   ;D
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Offline David

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2006, 08:08:32 pm »
I'm agnostic.   I don't want to be a full fledged athiest so I can make a short prayer everytime I buy a lottery ticket!   Not that that is working either.... :-\

Offline j.U.d.E.

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2006, 08:16:47 pm »
Agnostic too! I guess it was my upbringing. Having been raised by a single parent, my mother had 'more material' things to think and teach us about.

Around where I live though, this is nothing very special.

I tend to prefer believing in humans..

~ j U d E
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2006, 10:30:21 pm »
Hiya Imp,

Do you hang out on the Infidels forum?  http://www.infidels.org/

I'm not an atheist, but it's one of my favorite websites due to just the sheer rational reasonable tone of the members.  They also have a cool t-shirt, reading/movie recommendations, book reviews, all kinds of debates and challenges and many of the people in the forum/website are scholars of all kinds.

HIGHLY recommend this website.

dmmb_Mandy

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2006, 02:11:26 am »
I dunno what I am. I like to think I'm nothing really when it comes to religion, so I guess that falls under "Atheist".  ??? Religion has just never been a part of my life. I think that the only person I should look to for guidance/help is myself.

dmmb_Mandy

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2006, 02:13:16 am »
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"I Think, Therefore I'm Atheist."

Whoa! LOL!

Offline Sheyne

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2006, 05:07:15 am »

I lost my ability to have "faith" at a very early age. I couldn't believe that good things are possible if you "pray".. To me, you make your own luck. You create your own opportunities.

And the pragmatist in me cannot believe in something unreal or irrational.

I totally believe in Jesus Christ - I believe he walked the earth. I believe he was a great man who had much to teach people. And I also believe that in his death, the story got fucked up by opportunists. ie - i believe Dan Brown's take on this story from "the Da Vinci Code". But all that walking on water shit.. I just can't buy that. I don't and can't believe in it. Its irrational.

And I don't like the idea of signing myself over to a higher power. The whole concept of "faith" has never washed with me.
Chut up!

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2006, 07:44:10 am »
Same here, Sheyne.  I think I've always been an atheist who was just desperately trying to be a believer so as to fit in.  Faith has never washed with me, either.  I've never felt that God was really listening when I prayed, and I've never felt anything in any church except foolish.  I finally accepted my own atheism in the past year.  It took a hurricane (and my countrymen's apathy about it) to do that.  The catalyst was a woman from my old neighborhood saying to me in a store a week after Katrina hit and at the height of all those poor people's misery:  "I just praise God it was them and not us."  I don't think I've ever been so angry in all my life.  There it was - clear as day.  I kept coming back to the word 'praise' and shaking all the more.

My husband has been an atheist all his life, too.  But he's still having trouble being open about it.  When it comes right down to it, he still is afraid to rock the boat.  I'm not.  When churchies ask me where I go to church now, I don't just politely say "I'm not currently attending any church."  I say, "I don't go to church.  I haven't in a long time."  If they pursue it, I tell them why.  I used to worry about being insulting.  But as Ennis would say, fuck it.  Who's being more insulting?  Me by being honest, or they by being so arrogant as to assume I believe what they believe and to imply that I should if I don't?

Sign me up for one of them there shirts.  Actually, I think I'd like mine to say "Militant Atheist."  If that's a tad much, how about "Proud Atheist Since 2005.  Atheist Since 1965."
No more beans!

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2006, 10:17:15 am »

Sign me up for one of them there shirts.  Actually, I think I'd like mine to say "Militant Atheist."  If that's a tad much, how about "Proud Atheist Since 2005.  Atheist Since 1965."

I bought my T-shirts at CafePress.com.  Do a search using "atheist" and you'll find scores and scores of 'em.

(I also saw a T there for gay men that made me laugh:  "That's 'Mr. Fag' to you")
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Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2006, 10:18:10 am »
Hiya Imp,

Do you hang out on the Infidels forum?  http://www.infidels.org/

Yep!  I know of it and agree it's fantastic.  Thanks!
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If you won't pray in my school, I won't think in your church.

Offline Impish

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An Atheist Manifesto
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2006, 10:26:27 am »
I was introduced to Sam Harris just last week by seeing him interviewed in the documentary film "The God Who Wasn't There."  I ordered his book "The End of Faith," and then was sent his "Atheist Manifesto" by someone who had no idea I was interested in him.  It's a fabulous essay, so I'm sharing it everyone here.  It's from Truthdig.com, another site I highly recommend.  Best,  Imp.

From Truthdig.com
Posted on Dec. 7, 2005

By Sam Harris

Editor’s Note: At a time when fundamentalist religion has an unparalleled influence in the highest government levels in the United States, and religion-based terror dominates the world stage, Sam Harris argues that progressive tolerance of faith-based unreason is as great a menace as religion itself.  Harris, a philosophy graduate of Stanford who has studied eastern and western religions, won the 2005 PEN Award for nonfiction for The End of Faith, which powerfully examines and explodes the absurdities of organized religion. Truthdig asked Harris to write a charter document for his thesis that belief in God, and appeasement of religious extremists of all faiths by moderates, has been and continues to be the greatest threat to world peace and a sustained assault on reason.

An Atheist Manifesto

Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind is not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of 6 billion human beings. The same statistics also suggest that this girl s parents believe at this very moment that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?

No.

The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious.  Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist does not want.

It is worth noting that no one ever needs to identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, atheism is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (87% of the population) who claim to never doubt the existence of God should be obliged to present evidence for his existence and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day. Only the atheist appreciates just how uncanny our situation is: Most of us believe in a God that is every bit as specious as the gods of Mount Olympus; no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that such a God exists; and much of what passes for public policy in our country conforms to religious taboos and superstitions appropriate to a medieval theocracy. Our circumstance is abject, indefensible and terrifying. It would be hilarious if the stakes were not so high.

We live in a world where all things, good and bad, are finally destroyed by change. Parents lose their children and children their parents. Husbands and wives are separated in an instant, never to meet again. Friends part company in haste, without knowing that it will be for the last time. This life, when surveyed with a broad glance, presents little more than a vast spectacle of loss. Most people in this world, however, imagine that there is a cure for this. If we live rightly—not necessarily ethically, but within the framework of certain ancient beliefs and stereotyped behaviors—we will get everything we want after we die. When our bodies finally fail us, we just shed our corporeal ballast and travel to a land where we are reunited with everyone we loved while alive. Of course, overly rational people and other rabble will be kept out of this happy place, and those who suspended their disbelief while alive will be free to enjoy themselves for all eternity.

We live in a world of unimaginable surprises--from the fusion energy that lights the sun to the genetic and evolutionary consequences of this lights dancing for eons upon the Earth--and yet Paradise conforms to our most superficial concerns with all the fidelity of a Caribbean cruise. This is wondrously strange. If one didn’t know better, one would think that man, in his fear of losing all that he loves, had created heaven, along with its gatekeeper God, in his own image.

Consider the destruction that Hurricane Katrina leveled on New Orleans. More than a thousand people died, tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions, and nearly a million were displaced. It is safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Katrina struck believed in an omnipotent, omniscient and compassionate God. But what was God doing while a hurricane laid waste to their city? Surely he heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there. These were people of faith. These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives. Only the atheist has the courage to admit the obvious: These poor people died talking to an imaginary friend.

Of course, there had been ample warning that a storm of biblical proportions would strike New Orleans, and the human response to the ensuing disaster was tragically inept. But it was inept only by the light of science. Advance warning of Katrina’s path was wrested from mute Nature by meteorological calculations and satellite imagery. God told no one of his plans. Had the residents of New Orleans been content to rely on the beneficence of the Lord, they wouldn’t have known that a killer hurricane was bearing down upon them until they felt the first gusts of wind on their faces. Nevertheless, a poll conducted by The Washington Post found that 80% of Katrina’s survivors claim that the event has only strengthened their faith in God.

As Hurricane Katrina was devouring New Orleans, nearly a thousand Shiite pilgrims were trampled to death on a bridge in Iraq. There can be no doubt that these pilgrims believed mightily in the God of the Koran: Their lives were organized around the indisputable fact of his existence; their women walked veiled before him; their men regularly murdered one another over rival interpretations of his word. It would be remarkable if a single survivor of this tragedy lost his faith. More likely, the survivors imagine that they were spared through God’s grace.

Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved. Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God while this same God drowned infants in their cribs. Because he refuses to cloak the reality of the world’s suffering in a cloying fantasy of eternal life, the atheist feels in his bones just how precious life is--and, indeed, how unfortunate it is that millions of human beings suffer the most harrowing abridgements of their happiness for no good reason at all.

One wonders just how vast and gratuitous a catastrophe would have to be to shake the world’s faith. The Holocaust did not do it. Neither did the genocide in Rwanda, even with machete-wielding priests among the perpetrators. Five hundred million people died of smallpox in the 20th Century, many of them infants. God’s ways are, indeed, inscrutable. It seems that any fact, no matter how infelicitous, can be rendered compatible with religious faith. In matters of faith, we have kicked ourselves loose of the Earth.

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent? There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved. If God exists, either he can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities or he does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If he exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: The biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different. Consequently, only the atheist is compassionate enough to take the profundity of the world’s suffering at face value. It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love; it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive. That so much of this suffering can be directly attributed to religion--to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions and religious diversions of scarce resources--is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity. It is a necessity, however, that places the atheist at the margins of society. The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors.


Continued: The Nature of Belief

The Nature of Belief
According to several recent polls, 22% of Americans are certain that Jesus will return to Earth sometime in the next 50 years. Another 22% believe that he will probably do so. This is likely the same 44% who go to church once a week or more, who believe that God literally promised the land of Israel to the Jews and who want to stop teaching our children about the biological fact of evolution. As President Bush is well aware, believers of this sort constitute the most cohesive and motivated segment of the American electorate. Consequently, their views and prejudices now influence almost every decision of national importance. Political liberals seem to have drawn the wrong lesson from these developments and are now thumbing Scripture, wondering how best to ingratiate themselves to the legions of men and women in our country who vote largely on the basis of religious dogma. More than 50% of Americans have a “negative” or “highly negative” view of people who do not believe in God; 70% think it important for presidential candidates to be “strongly religious.” Unreason is now ascendant in the United States--in our schools, in our courts and in each branch of the federal government. Only 28% of Americans believe in evolution; 68% believe in Satan. Ignorance in this degree, concentrated in both the head and belly of a lumbering superpower, is now a problem for the entire world.

Although it is easy enough for smart people to criticize religious fundamentalism, something called “religious moderation” still enjoys immense prestige in our society, even in the ivory tower. This is ironic, as fundamentalists tend to make a more principled use of their brains than “moderates” do. While fundamentalists justify their religious beliefs with extraordinarily poor evidence and arguments, at least they make an attempt at rational justification. Moderates, on the other hand, generally do nothing more than cite the good consequences of religious belief. Rather than say that they believe in God because certain biblical prophecies have come true, moderates will say that they believe in God because this belief “gives their lives meaning.” When a tsunami killed a few hundred thousand people on the day after Christmas, fundamentalists readily interpreted this cataclysm as evidence of God’s wrath. As it turns out, God was sending humanity another oblique message about the evils of abortion, idolatry and homosexuality. While morally obscene, this interpretation of events is actually reasonable, given certain (ludicrous) assumptions. Moderates, on the other hand, refuse to draw any conclusions whatsoever about God from his works. God remains a perfect mystery, a mere source of consolation that is compatible with the most desolating evil. In the face of disasters like the Asian tsunami, liberal piety is apt to produce the most unctuous and stupefying nonsense imaginable. And yet, men and women of goodwill naturally prefer such vacuities to the odious moralizing and prophesizing of true believers. Between catastrophes, it is surely a virtue of liberal theology that it emphasizes mercy over wrath. It is worth noting, however, that it is human mercy on display--not God’s--when the bloated bodies of the dead are pulled from the sea. On days when thousands of children are simultaneously torn from their mothers’ arms and casually drowned, liberal theology must stand revealed for what it is--the sheerest of mortal pretenses. Even the theology of wrath has more intellectual merit. If God exists, his will is not inscrutable. The only thing inscrutable in these terrible events is that so many neurologically healthy men and women can believe the unbelievable and think this the height of moral wisdom.

It is perfectly absurd for religious moderates to suggest that a rational human being can believe in God simply because this belief makes him happy, relieves his fear of death or gives his life meaning. The absurdity becomes obvious the moment we swap the notion of God for some other consoling proposition: Imagine, for instance, that a man wants to believe that there is a diamond buried somewhere in his yard that is the size of a refrigerator. No doubt it would feel uncommonly good to believe this. Just imagine what would happen if he then followed the example of religious moderates and maintained this belief along pragmatic lines: When asked why he thinks that there is a diamond in his yard that is thousands of times larger than any yet discovered, he says things like, “This belief gives my life meaning,” or “My family and I enjoy digging for it on Sundays,” or “I wouldn’t want to live in a universe where there wasn’t a diamond buried in my backyard that is the size of a refrigerator.” Clearly these responses are inadequate. But they are worse than that. They are the responses of a madman or an idiot.

Here we can see why Pascal’s wager, Kierkegaard’s leap of faith and other epistemological Ponzi schemes won’t do. To believe that God exists is to believe that one stands in some relation to his existence such that his existence is itself the reason for one’s belief. There must be some causal connection, or an appearance thereof, between the fact in question and a person’s acceptance of it. In this way, we can see that religious beliefs, to be beliefs about the way the world is, must be as evidentiary in spirit as any other. For all their sins against reason, religious fundamentalists understand this; moderates--almost by definition--do not.

The incompatibility of reason and faith has been a self-evident feature of human cognition and public discourse for centuries. Either a person has good reasons for what he strongly believes or he does not. People of all creeds naturally recognize the primacy of reasons and resort to reasoning and evidence wherever they possibly can. When rational inquiry supports the creed it is always championed; when it poses a threat, it is derided; sometimes in the same sentence. Only when the evidence for a religious doctrine is thin or nonexistent, or there is compelling evidence against it, do its adherents invoke “faith.” Otherwise, they simply cite the reasons for their beliefs (e.g. “the New Testament confirms Old Testament prophecy,” “I saw the face of Jesus in a window,” “We prayed, and our daughter’s cancer went into remission"). Such reasons are generally inadequate, but they are better than no reasons at all. Faith is nothing more than the license religious people give themselves to keep believing when reasons fail. In a world that has been shattered by mutually incompatible religious beliefs, in a nation that is growing increasingly beholden to Iron Age conceptions of God, the end of history and the immortality of the soul, this lazy partitioning of our discourse into matters of reason and matters of faith is now unconscionable.


Continued: Faith and the Good Society


Faith and the Good Society
People of faith regularly claim that atheism is responsible for some of the most appalling crimes of the 20th century. Although it is true that the regimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were irreligious to varying degrees, they were not especially rational. In fact, their public pronouncements were little more than litanies of delusion--delusions about race, economics, national identity, the march of history or the moral dangers of intellectualism. In many respects, religion was directly culpable even here. Consider the Holocaust: The anti-Semitism that built the Nazi crematoria brick by brick was a direct inheritance from medieval Christianity. For centuries, religious Germans had viewed the Jews as the worst species of heretics and attributed every societal ill to their continued presence among the faithful. While the hatred of Jews in Germany expressed itself in a predominately secular way, the religious demonization of the Jews of Europe continued. (The Vatican itself perpetuated the blood libel in its newspapers as late as 1914.)

Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields are not examples of what happens when people become too critical of unjustified beliefs; to the contrary, these horrors testify to the dangers of not thinking critically enough about specific secular ideologies. Needless to say, a rational argument against religious faith is not an argument for the blind embrace of atheism as a dogma. The problem that the atheist exposes is none other than the problem of dogma itself--of which every religion has more than its fair share. There is no society in recorded history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

While most Americans believe that getting rid of religion is an impossible goal, much of the developed world has already accomplished it. Any account of a “god gene” that causes the majority of Americans to helplessly organize their lives around ancient works of religious fiction must explain why so many inhabitants of other First World societies apparently lack such a gene. The level of atheism throughout the rest of the developed world refutes any argument that religion is somehow a moral necessity. Countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on Earth. According to the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005) they are also the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate and infant mortality. Conversely, the 50 nations now ranked lowest in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious. Other analyses paint the same picture: The United States is unique among wealthy democracies in its level of religious literalism and opposition to evolutionary theory; it is also uniquely beleaguered by high rates of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy, STD infection and infant mortality. The same comparison holds true within the United States itself: Southern and Midwestern states, characterized by the highest levels of religious superstition and hostility to evolutionary theory, are especially plagued by the above indicators of societal dysfunction, while the comparatively secular states of the Northeast conform to European norms. Of course, correlational data of this sort do not resolve questions of causality--belief in God may lead to societal dysfunction; societal dysfunction may foster a belief in God; each factor may enable the other; or both may spring from some deeper source of mischief. Leaving aside the issue of cause and effect, these facts prove that atheism is perfectly compatible with the basic aspirations of a civil society; they also prove, conclusively, that religious faith does nothing to ensure a society’s health.

Countries with high levels of atheism also are the most charitable in terms of giving foreign aid to the developing world. The dubious link between Christian literalism and Christian values is also belied by other indices of charity. Consider the ratio in salaries between top-tier CEOs and their average employee: in Britain it is 24 to 1; France 15 to 1; Sweden 13 to 1; in the United States, where 83% of the population believes that Jesus literally rose from the dead, it is 475 to 1. Many a camel, it would seem, expects to squeeze easily through the eye of a needle.


Continued: Religion as a Source of Violence


Religion as a Source of Violence
One of the greatest challenges facing civilization in the 21st century is for human beings to learn to speak about their deepest personal concerns--about ethics, spiritual experience and the inevitability of human suffering--in ways that are not flagrantly irrational. Nothing stands in the way of this project more than the respect we accord religious faith. Incompatible religious doctrines have balkanized our world into separate moral communities--Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc.--and these divisions have become a continuous source of human conflict. Indeed, religion is as much a living spring of violence today as it was at any time in the past. The recent conflicts in Palestine (Jews versus Muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians versus Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians versus Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Northern Ireland (Protestants versus Catholics), Kashmir (Muslims versus Hindus), Sudan (Muslims versus Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslims versus Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims versus Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists versus Tamil Hindus), Indonesia (Muslims versus Timorese Christians), Iran and Iraq (Shiite versus Sunni Muslims), and the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians versus Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis versus Catholic and Orthodox Armenians) are merely a few cases in point. In these places religion has been the explicit cause of literally millions of deaths in the last 10 years.

In a world riven by ignorance, only the atheist refuses to deny the obvious: Religious faith promotes human violence to an astonishing degree. Religion inspires violence in at least two senses: (1) People often kill other human beings because they believe that the creator of the universe wants them to do it (the inevitable psychopathic corollary being that the act will ensure them an eternity of happiness after death). Examples of this sort of behavior are practically innumerable, jihadist suicide bombing being the most prominent. (2) Larger numbers of people are inclined toward religious conflict simply because their religion constitutes the core of their moral identities. One of the enduring pathologies of human culture is the tendency to raise children to fear and demonize other human beings on the basis of religion. Many religious conflicts that seem driven by terrestrial concerns, therefore, are religious in origin. (Just ask the Irish.)

These facts notwithstanding, religious moderates tend to imagine that human conflict is always reducible to a lack of education, to poverty or to political grievances. This is one of the many delusions of liberal piety. To dispel it, we need only reflect on the fact that the Sept. 11 hijackers were college educated and middle class and had no discernable history of political oppression. They did, however, spend an inordinate amount of time at their local mosque talking about the depravity of infidels and about the pleasures that await martyrs in Paradise. How many more architects and mechanical engineers must hit the wall at 400 miles an hour before we admit to ourselves that jihadist violence is not a matter of education, poverty or politics? The truth, astonishingly enough, is this: A person can be so well educated that he can build a nuclear bomb while still believing that he will get 72 virgins in Paradise. Such is the ease with which the human mind can be partitioned by faith, and such is the degree to which our intellectual discourse still patiently accommodates religious delusion. Only the atheist has observed what should now be obvious to every thinking human being: If we want to uproot the causes of religious violence we must uproot the false certainties of religion.

Why is religion such a potent source of human violence?

Our religions are intrinsically incompatible with one another. Either Jesus rose from the dead and will be returning to Earth like asuperhero or not; either the Koran is the infallible word of God or it isn’t. Every religion makes explicit claims about the way the world is, and the sheer profusion of these incompatible claims creates an enduring basis for conflict.
There is no other sphere of discourse in which human beings so fully articulate their differences from one another, or cast these differences in terms of everlasting rewards and punishments. Religion is the one endeavor in which us-them thinking achieves a transcendent significance. If a person really believes that calling God by the right name can spell the difference between eternal happiness and eternal suffering, then it becomes quite reasonable to treat heretics and unbelievers rather badly. It may even be reasonable to kill them. If a person thinks there is something that another person can say to his children that could put their souls in jeopardy for all eternity, then the heretic next door is actually far more dangerous than the child molester. The stakes of our religious differences are immeasurably higher than those born of mere tribalism, racism or politics.
Religious faith is a conversation-stopper. Religion is only area of our discourse in which people are systematically protected from the demand to give evidence in defense of their strongly held beliefs. And yet these beliefs often determine what they live for, what they will die for, and--all too often--what they will kill for. This is a problem, because when the stakes are high, human beings have a simple choice between conversation and violence. Only a fundamental willingness to be reasonable--to have our beliefs about the world revised by new evidence and new arguments--can guarantee that we will keep talking to one another. Certainty without evidence is necessarily divisive and dehumanizing. While there is no guarantee that rational people will always agree, the irrational are certain to be divided by their dogmas.

It seems profoundly unlikely that we will heal the divisions in our world simply by multiplying the opportunities for interfaith dialogue. The endgame for civilization cannot be mutual tolerance of patent irrationality. While all parties to liberal religious discourse have agreed to tread lightly over those points where their worldviews would otherwise collide, these very points remain perpetual sources of conflict for their coreligionists. Political correctness, therefore, does not offer an enduring basis for human cooperation. If religious war is ever to become unthinkable for us, in the way that slavery and cannibalism seem poised to, it will be a matter of our having dispensed with the dogma of faith.

When we have reasons for what we believe, we have no need of faith; when we have no reasons, or bad ones, we have lost our connection to the world and to one another. Atheism is nothing more than a commitment to the most basic standard of intellectual honesty: One’s convictions should be proportional to one’s evidence. Pretending to be certain when one isn’t--indeed, pretending to be certain about propositions for which no evidence is even conceivable--is both an intellectual and a moral failing. Only the atheist has realized this. The atheist is simply a person who has perceived the lies of religion and refused to make them his own.



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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2006, 12:27:40 pm »
Great article imp.  Well said.

Just a couple of comments.

The author brought up countries in the far northwest of Europe.  I wonder what the stats are in countries such as Italy or perhaps the Middle East such as Jordan or Israel, where religion is still very prevalent in the society, but the countries are not any worse off than the U.K.

Only the fundamentalist exclusivist religions - Islam/Christianity, I read - believed that the Indian ocean tsunami was a punishment from god.

In one example, a small tribe of local animist religious people believed it was just another spat between earth and the sea and was nothing to be afraid of so long as one could read the signs - the sea retreating - to recognize the coming tsunami.  They all fled to higher ground and survived.

Also, re:

Faith is nothing more than the license religious people give themselves to keep believing when reasons fail.

Both atheists and theists believe in the preciousness of human life...but aren't both groups, too, also self-deluding in this belief?

Because it IS a belief.

I agree on the preciousness of human life, but I am drifiting toward moral relativisim and that tells me, logically, rationally, that I have absolutely no reason to believe that human life is more valuable than the insects underneath our feet.

The biological sciences tell us that if human beings completely disappeared off the face of the earth...

Nothing would happen.  Ecosystems would go on just as they had before.

Humans are of little impact on the ecosystem as a whole.

However, if plankton or insects disappeared completely off the earth, the entire living ecosystem would collapse.

Kinda puts us humans in our place, doesn't it?

The theist believes that 'god' spared their lives in a disaster, while ignoring/looking the other way as 'god' drowned helpless infants but while this may be deemed arrogant, isn't this also a psychological attempt to stave off survivor's guilt?

They know of no reason why they were spared and others were not, so their survival had to be of sheer chance/divine intervention.

To believe otherwise is to believe/know that they were just in the right place at the right time...and next time, they might not be. 

Fear.

Fear of the unknown, of death leads people to faith.

Otherwise, life has no meaning.  It just is.

Nature operates by nature's rules and humans are no better or worse than insects in the path of hurricanes/wildfires/volcanos (I leave out earthquakes, because basically, earthquakes don't kill anyone. It's the collapsing buildings/fires that do that).  They will be mowed over and under and Nature will not even blink.

To quote Isaac Asimov - "Call it mother, if you will - but Earth is not a doting parent."

People need to believe that their lives have meaning.  That to get up every morning and go on, even in the face of disaster/strife/disease/abject poverty means something.

Our evolutionary heritage has given humans the drive to survive, to care for our children and local tribal groups, to have a sense of cooperation/fairness to get along and religion is a social construct that was developed to explain our actions and give them divine importance.

It's hard for people to accept that our lives have no meaning - or at best, have a little meaning, but one that won't last past the memory of other people - and life is nothing more than mute cells flying in the face of it all.

As one atheist so humorously described himself, 'I'm nothing but a walking, talking bag of electrical meat.'

That's hard for many people to stomach. 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 10:02:57 pm by delalluvia »

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2006, 06:58:44 pm »
Quote
As one atheist so humorously described himself, 'I'm nothing but a walking, talking bag of electrical meat.'

It's easy to confuse atheism with existentialism:  all existentialists are atheists, but not all athesists are existentialists.

For example, there are forms of Buddhism that are atheistic (no external gods), but believe in reincarnation. 

I think the search for meaning is important, but one does not have to believe in gods for life to meaningful.  When we give up our belief in gods, we can turn our attention to building a meaningful life and a better world for one's self and for others.  That effort is far more likely to be successful and "meaningful," when the motivation is not from a fear of gods but comes from a person's internal ethics and morals.

After all, when christians believe in heaven or the rapture, what motivation is there to create a "heaven on earth"?  None: as long as they refuse to eat from the tree of knowledge (that is, refuse to learn and think), they will get into their heaven, so who cares about this world? 

This is the evil of such myths of an afterlife, in my opinion:   first, that believers' act morally and ethically (that is, when they do act morally, this is not a given) only because of their fear of hell; and second, there is little or no motivation to make this world a better place to live in.

It's terrifying that fundamentalists, whether christians or muslims,  have control of the button to launch nuclear weapons, or soon will.  In their belief system, to launch a nuclear war is a rational act...  they get to be harp-playing angels  that much sooner! 

I'd much rather have an atheist in control of that button, wouldn't you? 


Just found this quote (written in 1878!) at infidels.org, and as it's so appropriate for this discussion, I'm adding it here:

"Whatever good you would do out of fear of punishment, or hope of reward hereafter, the Atheist would do simply because it is good; and being so, he would receive the far surer and more certain reward, springing from well-doing, which would constitute his pleasure, and promote his happiness."

Ernestine L. Rose, "A Defence of Atheism" (1878, Women Without Superstition ed. Annie Laurie Gaylor, Madison, WI: FFRF, 1997), p. 85.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 07:44:58 pm by Impish »
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Offline isabelle

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2006, 03:58:50 am »
Impish, it is interesting that you mentioned some forms of Buddhism are atheist, because that would be indeed the only form of spirituality I may feel attracted to.
I was brought up with no religious education whatsoever, but I guess my parents were an exception in the family. Although really, the separation between Church and State still does mean something in France, and I bloody well hope it remains so (I'm just afraid a leap backwards is operating at the moment as far as religion is concerned. Back to religion. The world over).
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Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2006, 10:23:44 am »
Impish, it is interesting that you mentioned some forms of Buddhism are atheist, because that would be indeed the only form of spirituality I may feel attracted to.

Buddhism is recognized by many anti-religion thinkers as the only major religion that does not have a history of violence associated with it.  Interesting correlation here:  belief in an external god = history of violence (but see Harris' caution about correlations below).

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I was brought up with no religious education whatsoever, but I guess my parents were an exception in the family. Although really, the separation between Church and State still does mean something in France, and I bloody well hope it remains so (I'm just afraid a leap backwards is operating at the moment as far as religion is concerned. Back to religion. The world over).

A paragraph from the manifesto bears repeating here:

"The level of atheism throughout the rest of the developed world refutes any argument that religion is somehow a moral necessity. Countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on Earth. According to the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005) they are also the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate and infant mortality. Conversely, the 50 nations now ranked lowest in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious. Other analyses paint the same picture: The United States is unique among wealthy democracies in its level of religious literalism and opposition to evolutionary theory; it is also uniquely beleaguered by high rates of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy, STD infection and infant mortality. The same comparison holds true within the United States itself: Southern and Midwestern states, characterized by the highest levels of religious superstition and hostility to evolutionary theory, are especially plagued by the above indicators of societal dysfunction, while the comparatively secular states of the Northeast conform to European norms. Of course, correlational data of this sort do not resolve questions of causality--belief in God may lead to societal dysfunction; societal dysfunction may foster a belief in God; each factor may enable the other; or both may spring from some deeper source of mischief. Leaving aside the issue of cause and effect, these facts prove that atheism is perfectly compatible with the basic aspirations of a civil society; they also prove, conclusively, that religious faith does nothing to ensure a society’s health."
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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2006, 11:16:16 pm »
I'm agnostic.   I don't want to be a full fledged athiest so I can make a short prayer everytime I buy a lottery ticket!   Not that that is working either.... :-\

 :laugh:

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2006, 12:36:24 am »
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As one atheist so humorously described himself, 'I'm nothing but a walking, talking bag of electrical meat.'

Quote
It's easy to confuse atheism with existentialism:  all existentialists are atheists, but not all athesists are existentialists.

Not quite sure how you got existentialism out of that quote.  IMO, the poster was simply stating a fact.  The biological sciences teach us that the human body is nothing more than an electro-chemical factory.  Even thought is an electro-chemical reaction.  Start shifting brain chemistry or electrical input and you - the person - undergo shifts in perception and/or personality.  Mess with it enough and the whole body shuts down.

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I think the search for meaning is important, but one does not have to believe in gods for life to meaningful.

I think many atheists would tell you that life has no meaning but what you give it.  There's no point in 'searching' for it.  It exists within you to have it.

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It's terrifying that fundamentalists, whether christians or muslims,  have control of the button to launch nuclear weapons, or soon will.  In their belief system, to launch a nuclear war is a rational act...  they get to be harp-playing angels  that much sooner!  I'd much rather have an atheist in control of that button, wouldn't you?

The only satisfaction one might have/get is that if they do do so, they will not escape the nuclear fallout, because retaliation in kind will most certainly follow.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2006, 07:43:22 am »
I was reading the "Voices" section of my National Geographic last night, and this response to a question asked of him from naturalist, zoologist, and biological evolutionist Edward O. Wilson really struck a chord:

Obviously you find a spiritual sense in nature, a sense of wonder.  How do you find meaning in a world that came about through random mutations and natural selection?

Well, the human mind has evolved to search for meaning.  The universe is so beautiful and complex and surprising, and life is too.  You remember Darwin's line "Endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved"?  We see this far more than Darwin could.  We see right down to the molecular level how truly extraordinary life is as a phenomenon.  There you have more to summon spirituality than anything provided by the late Iron Age desert kingdom scribes who wrote the Holy Bible.  They created an impressive piece of literature.  But they really didn't understand the world around them or the stars above.  They metaphorized them, put poetry into them - they did the best they could.  But still and all, they fell far short of what humanity is capable of feeling in a sense of the sacred and of aesthetic beauty.

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Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2006, 11:01:58 am »
There you have more to summon spirituality than anything provided by the late Iron Age desert kingdom scribes who wrote the Holy Bible.  They created an impressive piece of literature.  But they really didn't understand the world around them or the stars above.  They metaphorized them, put poetry into them - they did the best they could.  But still and all, they fell far short of what humanity is capable of feeling in a sense of the sacred and of aesthetic beauty.


Bravo!
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2006, 04:26:35 pm »
It really astounds me that so many people assume that a world without a deity would necessarily be meaningless. I think the universe is amazing -- stars, planets, gravity, quantum mechanics, evolution, plate tectonics... it's just so cool. And randomness... just calling all that "randomness" oversimplifies it.

I don't need to believe in some celestial busy-body in order to experience awe.

So, count me as a proud atheist, too. :)
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2006, 05:23:38 pm »
It really astounds me that so many people assume that a world without a deity would necessarily be meaningless. I think the universe is amazing -- stars, planets, gravity, quantum mechanics, evolution, plate tectonics... it's just so cool. And randomness... just calling all that "randomness" oversimplifies it.

I don't need to believe in some celestial busy-body in order to experience awe.

So, count me as a proud atheist, too. :)

Hear, hear.  Really, the very randomness of it is what's so miraculous to me.  That we all came to be here in this place and time as the result of a random explosion billions of years ago never ceases to amaze me.  I find that much more awe-inspiring than the thought of some all-knowing, all-powerful being who looks like a giant version of Santa Claus floating around on a celestial cloud, watching us all and pulling the strings.  And I wonder at the thought of being made up of the very stuff that makes up the stars.  That's heaven to me - I'm already there.
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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2006, 05:33:26 pm »
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It's terrifying that fundamentalists, whether christians or muslims,  have control of the button to launch nuclear weapons, or soon will.  In their belief system, to launch a nuclear war is a rational act...  they get to be harp-playing angels  that much sooner!  I'd much rather have an atheist in control of that button, wouldn't you?

I'll start by saying that I am not an atheist but that I have great respect for all the views shared on this thread.  Now to my reason for posting, re the above quote, I don't care what the spiritual or religious persuasions of the person in charge of that firing mechanism is as long he or she is a balanced and rational individual with a secure sense of self and a profound love for his fellowman and this earth we all share.  Otherwise heaven or providence help us all

Offline Lynne

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2006, 01:29:33 am »
Impish -  Thank you for starting this discussion.  I think it is a terrific thread and the responses have been outstanding.

For myself, I tend to waffle between agnostic and atheist depending on my mood.  On the subject of bumper stickers, I once saw one that appealed to me:  "Militant Agnostic:  I Don't Know and Neither Do You."   :)

You're right, though, about these being typically 'closeted' opinions, especially in the rural area I now inhabit. (I've found urban areas to be quite a bit different.)  I think much might be accomplished if people were more open about their thoughts.  I see the issue as intertwined with those of gay rights because, typically, the most vocal opponents of gay rights are also the most outspoken evangelicals.  That person who said Americans have freedom of religion, but not freedom from religion was right-on.  I believe that maintaining separation of church and state has to be of paramount importance in this country. 

I've been thinking about why I waffle and I think it boils down to a couple of things.

First, I am a scientist by vocation and avocation, and I find mythology in any form as an insufficient and unsatisfying way to explain what is not understood.  It's completely understandable for mankind to look for these answers in religion, and has been since the dawn of time, but religion does not provide me with satisfactory answers.  Still, I label myself 'agnostic' because I have this inherent resistance to telling other people that I think they are 'wrong'.  And anytime I say 'I don't believe in God' to someone I know does believe, I feel like I'm criticizing their own personal choice.

That said, I wish most of these people would afford me the same courtesy.  This subject comes up all the time with a friend I've had for years and I've finally just had to terminate all discussion by saying, 'It find it insulting that you don't trust and respect me to make my own decisions in this.'  And I repeat as often as necessary.

Secondly, Another reason that I don't want to reject 'faith' outright is because I do believe in the existence of other ideals that are intangible.  Just because this is one that I haven't felt personally, I don't want to reject or undermine others' experiences.  Hope, love, charity, etc...I have firsthand experience with...so who am I to tell someone else that because I haven't had some experience with faith that it doesn't exist?

This post has become too long, so I'll end it here...wonderful opinions by all here..Thanks again, Impish.

-Lynne
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2006, 03:13:00 am »
I'll start by saying that I am not an atheist but that I have great respect for all the views shared on this thread.  Now to my reason for posting, re the above quote, I don't care what the spiritual or religious persuasions of the person in charge of that firing mechanism is as long he or she is a balanced and rational individual with a secure sense of self and a profound love for his fellowman and this earth we all share.  Otherwise heaven or providence help us all

I with Vic here, in both my non-atheist persuasion but also my tolerance for world leaders believing in whatever they want as long as their decisions are made with the betterment of humanity in mind.  Unfortunately, I fear that no one meets that criteria, so I also send "good thoughts and best wishes into the ether" (notice I didn't say pray) and hope that world's leaders remain well rested and well fed, but not bored because we know about idle hands now don't we.  That's right, they perform "random acts of naughtiness" (as opposed to devil's work).
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Offline TOoP/Bruce

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2006, 06:48:46 am »
Anyway, if you don't believe in gods either -- or if you consider yourself agnostic -- I encourage you to come out of the closet, letting those around you know your beliefs.  It's important to increase  our visibility, and to let others know that there is moral behavior without it being caused by fear of a god.

Cheers!   ;D

Another non-believer here. 

What sort of morality do you really have if the only reason you do "God's will" is to buy real estate in heaven?  Give me a break... 

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Offline Sheyne

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2006, 07:10:17 am »

My mum thinks its "terrifying" that I choose not to live my life as a Christian. And to that I asked her: "what is a Christian?" And the blank look I got really amused me. My mum doesn't attend church, save for Christmas Day (which is so "token", if you ask me and she gets rather shitty when I point this out) and her only reason for calling herself a Christian is that a) she believes in Jesus and God; b) she has read the bible; c) approximately 55% of her time, she tries to do right by other people. (the other 45% she's a nasty nagging bitch).

So is she a Christian?  I don't know.

But she's never stopped trying to get me to believe in God. If my son does something new (even if I've have spent months slogging away in my efforts to get him to do so), its "God's influence" that has contributed to his development. Give me an effing break.

I have been almost mugged twice in my life. I say "almost" cause my knowledge of taekwondo got me out of both situations without being hurt. Yet, despite having run-ins with those drugged-crazed, knife-wielding maniacs, the scariest person I ever met in my whole life was this 30 year old leech who latched onto me at my first - and subsequently only - ballroom dancing class around 12 years ago. Turns out she was a Jehovah's Witness. Now I met this girl for one night only and I didn't know ANYBODY else in that room. Yet this girl tracked down my phone number - somehow - and my address and for nearly 2 months, pestered me to join her church. She phoned 2 or 3 times weekly. She sent pamphlets, timetables and all sorts of other shit to MY HOME. And it wasn't until I threatened to call the cops and get a restraining order against her that she desisted.

Faith is one thing. Allowing it to cloud your rationality is another thing entirely.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2006, 08:11:26 am »
I hear you, Sheyne.  Some of the worst people I know call themselves Christians.  (Some of the best, too, of course.)  And some of the best Christians I know are atheists.
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Offline isabelle

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2006, 01:19:33 pm »
Put it this way: find me ONE religion that has humor, and I'll join in an eye-blink!
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2006, 01:45:07 pm »
Still, I label myself 'agnostic' because I have this inherent resistance to telling other people that I think they are 'wrong'.  And anytime I say 'I don't believe in God' to someone I know does believe, I feel like I'm criticizing their own personal choice.

That's a really good point, and I usually describe myself as "agnostic" (or more often, simply avoid saying anything about my own religious beliefs or non-beliefs) because I feel that way too. (I'm a scientist, too, and I don't particularly want people to try to prove the existence of a deity through science. I think there are some things that science simply doesn't have anything to say about -- I wouldn't want people to assess beauty through scientific tests, for instance.) I don't mind other people's faith. I've known a number of people who get a great deal of joy and strength from their faith, and who use tenets such as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" to guide their lives, and who are really wonderful people to be around. And they could almost sell me on religion, with the examples that they set. But I've known wonderful people who are atheists, as well; I don't think that religion is the only thing that can guide people to be genuinely good.

But when it comes down to it, I'm not really uncertain, not in my own personal beliefs. Perhaps "tolerant atheist" would be a better label for me? Still, I get tired of people offering me eternal life (as if there isn't something really, really cool about having my atoms get used by a tree or a bug or a volcano or something), or telling me that "everything happens for a reason" (and not meaning that the reason has to do with gravity or climate change or plate tectonics or lots of people being mean to each other).
« Last Edit: January 05, 2007, 04:51:36 pm by nakymaton »
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2006, 02:20:18 pm »
I called myself an agnostic for years, telling myself that there was a part of me that felt a pull to something bigger than myself that I just couldn't shake.  But I came to realize last year that for me, that something was my own fear.  My own fear at being disowned by society.  All those years of having Christianity ingrained in and etched upon me had taken a toll, I guess.  It took realizing that that same society had disowned their own countrymen and women after Katrina last year to make me see that I truly don't care what they think of my lack of faith anymore.

I respect those of you who are tolerant of others' religious beliefs very much.  I am, too, until they try to sell me on them.  I've always seen religious beliefs (or lack thereof) as being personal and private and nobody's business but our own.  But I think the current administration in this country has only served to empower those who think it's their right not only to know about, but to convert, us heathens.  I find them coming at me from every direction about it, now, and I'm tired of it.  I don't think those who have faith are wrong.  OK, secretly, I think they are.  But I don't know they are.  But I do know that for me, as far as I am concerned, there is no God.  As hard as it was for me to finally come to that last year, I found that once I had fully accepted it in myself and was no longer willing to back down about it when backed into the proverbial wall for the sake of being accepted by others, I had peace of mind.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2006, 07:02:30 pm »
So I've decided I'm going to come out as an atheist, and have bought some T-shirts so that people will know my stance when I wear them.

The T's say

"Friendly Atheist" (my favorite, as it's the least "in your face")
"Lord, Protect Me From Your Followers"
"I Think, Therefore I'm Atheist."
About a week ago, before I read this thread, I created some images for T-shirts etc on anti-religious themes:
"Nobody knows - agnostics admit it"
"Monotheism - one god too many"
"Polythestis worship too many gods - so do monotheists"
"I believe in Intelligent Design by Jupiter!"
etc
They're at http://www.cafepress.com/wero/1440313
(I'm going to change those grey letters to yellow to make them more legible.)
I'm also tempted by "You don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church"

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2006, 07:30:14 pm »
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I respect those of you who are tolerant of others' religious beliefs very much.  I am, too, until they try to sell me on them.  I've always seen religious beliefs (or lack thereof) as being personal and private and nobody's business but our own.

Ah, if only those people who adhered to those religions believed in the same.

But they don't.

At the recent World Religious hoedown, some representatives of the Protestant/Catholic/Muslim religions all got together and decided it wasn't a good idea to kill anyone who wanted to convert, but hey, it was OK to try to covert people.

Go figure.

The two big religions totally believe in proselytizing because they are exclusivist by design.

You're either for them or against them.  There is no in-between.  So it's their duty to try to 'save' you.  It's their religious job to butt in, invade your privacy, brow beat you, just beat you, change your government, whatever it takes to get the 'right' religion in power.

Because if they do, the world will become a 'heaven on earth' and in the meantime you heathen sinners are the problem.   ::)

Yeah, I know.  Scary as shit.

Even though I am a theist myself, my religion doesn't proselytize and is all about maintaining a pax deorum through personal behavior, not through making everyone ELSE do the same.

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2006, 07:39:15 pm »
Still, I label myself 'agnostic' because I have this inherent resistance to telling other people that I think they are 'wrong'.  And anytime I say 'I don't believe in God' to someone I know does believe, I feel like I'm criticizing their own personal choice.

I know what you are trying to say, and "get" what you are feeling.  But, my dear Lynne,  if you examine your statment very carefully, you'll find that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny (I'm trying to say this in as non-confrontational way as possible..  not sure I'm succeeding....   :P).

When we make statements in general -- about anything -- we're always stating our personal truth as we know it, and I suppose if our statement conflicts with someone's else's truth, that other person could always choose to be offended by it, to take it as us saying "you're wrong."  But that's isn't our intent when we made our statement, and if we altered our statements (in a way, not telling our truth completely) for fear of offending others, then we have started down a slippery slope of mis-representing ourselves about everything.

We have to trust others to be able to distinguish between telling them they're wrong and telling them we disagree.  Vic, for example,  told us (above in this thread) that she believes in a god, and expected us to understand that she was disagreeing with us,  not insulting us.  And she was right to do so...  I didn't take offense, and I don't think anyone else did either.

After all, we all know how to tell someone their wrong if we DO want to offend them, right?  It's one thing to say "I'm an atheist" and another thing to say "you're wrong to be an deist."  If you stick to only making claims about your truth, then if the other person takes offense, it's not because of what we said, but because of some insecurity in the other person.

You're a sweetheart, Lynne, and I know you're just trying to avoid offending anyone.  But I do get a bit concerned when that effort leads  to modifying the statements you make; modifications that actually "bend" what you believe to be true.   Your opinion counts, and you shouldn't make it subservient to anyone else's.

Love ya,

Imp


 
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2006, 07:39:55 pm »
Even though I am a theist myself, my religion doesn't proselytize and is all about maintaining a pax deorum through personal behavior, not through making everyone ELSE do the same.

My mother had a faith very similar to your own.  She believed in God, but the God she believed in loved every human being unconditionally - even murderers and criminals.  Sure, they made him sad, but he loved them all just the same.  She saw him as the parent to us all, who forgave us all if we just were sorry when we did something wrong.  No baptism required.  Just a wee bit of remorse.  And the last thing she thought he wanted us to do was to impose our beliefs of any kind on anyone else.  Now, if everyone of faith believed like she believed, well, then it'd be a perfect world.  Or at least a far better one than what we've got now.
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2006, 03:11:41 am »
When churchies ask me where I go to church now,

Barb, I haven't been asked that since I left the South.  It sure was one of the first three questions people used to ask there.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2006, 04:53:00 am »
Have you all seen Julia Sweeney performing her one-woman play, "Letting Go of God: My Beautiful Loss of Faith Story?"  I was lucky to see her do it last year.  It's an amazing saga of her path from blindly-following lifelong Catholic to dawning awareness that there were a lot of things she felt uncomfortable with about her religion, then her quest through other religions, growing realization that all religions really bugged her, to fearful agnostic to now proud and lovely atheist.  It's really something.  Beautifully, cleverly written.  Here's her website url

http://juliasweeney.com/welcome.asp

On the bottom left is a reference to a CD of Letting Go of God coming out soon and a link to reviews of the play, and on the right is mention that she will be speaking at an International atheist Conference in Iceland in June.

I cringe to tell you where you probably would remember her from - She played androgynous Pat on SNL in the early 90s.  She is way more beautiful (inside and out) and intelligent than that would indicate.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2006, 08:21:20 am »
Barb, I haven't been asked that since I left the South.  It sure was one of the first three questions people used to ask there.

Yep.  Doesn't take long for many here in Florida, either.  Generally the ones who ask are from the South.  And there seem to be more of them coming down here every day.  That may seem odd to you folks around the world, but though Florida contains the southernmost point of the United States - in Key West - it's not considered "the South."  People here, especially in South Florida, are from all over.  And even the natives are a more eclectic bunch than that.  You get up to north-central Florida - what we call "the I-4 corridor," you do get up into some real Deliverance-type locales.  :shudder:

But yes, I get asked that question down here much more often than I got asked it in New York or even Ohio, that's for sure.  I shoulda known I was in trouble when it was the first thing one of my new neighbors in the neighborhood we moved to two years ago asked me, and when someone who just moved in a few houses down a little while ago asked me in our first conversation.  Oh, and Big Surprise - they have a "Bush/Cheney 2004" bumper sticker, a fish emblem AND a "Choose Life" license plate on *both* their cars - the Trinity.

 :o

(They must all be pointing at my house and saying, "There goes the neighborhood."  Hehehehehehe...)
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2006, 08:47:51 am »
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When churchies ask me where I go to church now

I live in Texas and the very very very few times I've been asked this is when I'm around rural or country people.  I've never been asked this question by anyone who was urban.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2006, 09:29:10 am »
I live in Texas and the very very very few times I've been asked this is when I'm around rural or country people.  I've never been asked this question by anyone who was urban.

That's a good point.  Not only are the people who've asked me from one of the Carolinas or Mississippi or Texas originally - they're from particularly rural areas in those states.  Well, save for one, who's from the LA area originally but who lived in North Carolina for many years.  He's just a freak.  ;)  There have been six who've asked me since I've lived down here, come to think of it.  Which ain't all that many until you consider that's six more than ever asked me anywhere else.
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2006, 09:33:21 am »
Yep.  Doesn't take long for many here in Florida, either.  Generally the ones who ask are from the South.  And there seem to be more of them coming down here every day.

This is only tangentially related to atheism, I think, but it seems as though that sort of demographic shift is really important for US politics, if it's real.

My perception of religion in the US is twisted because, although I've lived in small towns all around the US (except for one 4-year stint in suburbia, which I loathed), I've lived mostly in college towns. Small, but not typical of small towns in the US. So up until a year or so ago, one of my neighbors had a sign beside the road that quoted a couple Bible verses that, put together, seemed to say "you're going straight to Hell if you don't believe what I believe." And there are lots and lots and lots of fish on the backs of cars. But, on the other hand, nobody has ever asked me where I go to church. (But I've heard rumors that the high school biology teacher doesn't teach evolution because it's controversial.  ::) My high school teacher did the same thing... well, no. My high school biology teach didn't teach evolution because he was a young-earth creationist. Still makes me mad.)

But anyway, demographic shifts. In the Rockies (even outside college towns), I've noticed a lot of houses sprouting up in places that used to be open space. And I'm talking even in places like the road west of Pinedale, Wyoming, maybe two hours from Jackson and further from the nearest interstate. If there are views and open space, there are people who have dreamed about living somewhere near the mountains, who did their time in a city or suburb and made some money, and who want to live their dream now. Some of them are 2nd home buyers, but at least in my local area, most of them are moving here because they want to.

I don't know their religion or politics. Some of them, at least, seem to be more liberal than one would expect in a traditional ranching/mining/oil & gas community. But the trappings of traditional rural culture -- the religion, and also things like country music -- seem to be more and more a part of suburbia, too. (Though I haven't lived in suburbia in 13 years, so I could be wrong, but the mega-churches couldn't be based in small towns... there just aren't enough people to fill them.)
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Offline YaadPyar

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2006, 10:52:58 am »
No - I'm not an atheist.  I'm not going to try to define or defend my own reality here.  Just wanted to comment about something Barb mentioned.


You get up to north-central Florida - what we call "the I-4 corridor," you do get up into some real Deliverance-type locales.  :shudder:  I shoulda known I was in trouble when it was the first thing one of my new neighbors in the neighborhood we moved to two years ago asked me, and when someone who just moved in a few houses down a little while ago asked me in our first conversation.  Oh, and Big Surprise - they have a "Bush/Cheney 2004" bumper sticker, a fish emblem AND a "Choose Life" license plate on *both* their cars - the Trinity.


I moved to Chicago after 12 years in Tallahassee, which Barb will know as the deeper south part of Florida.  In my first job there, we had a special luncheon event.  Everyone was asked to hold hands as we thanked Jesus for the meal.  I was stunned.  I grew up in Kansas, which is pretty hard-core Bible belt anyway, but this was a whole new level of discomfort for me.  But I also came to understand that praying publicly was about culture and community as much as it was about religion and belief. 

Anyway - the thought that got me posting is this: notions about G*d and religion have turned into a philosphical battlefield, each one taking a stand in opposition to another, daring the other to prove/disprove the truth/reality of their belief.

My own experience with the issues raised in this thread is that truth doesn't need defending.  Truth doesn't need proving.  Truth doesn't need me to proclaim it to be so.  It exists beyond me, and maybe in spite of me, but certainly not because of me. 

I know folks on all sides are wounded from the violence done in the name of G*d.  But I'm stepping off the battlefield here myself...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 11:50:32 am by YaadPyar »
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2006, 10:55:45 am »
Oh, God.  I've lived in suburbia now for - eek - nigh on 20 years.  Well, 33, if you count my childhood.  Grew up in suburban Rochester, NY - Gates, to be exact - until I was 13, then lived in a very rural, small town - albeit a "bedroom community" of Rochester on a lake (and LOVED everything about it) for 9 years, 4 of which I was in college in another very rural, small town in Northern New York.

And it's in suburbia where I'm seeing fish emblems, "Support Our Troops" yellow ribbon magnets (funny how the two so often go together), and American flags adorning more cars than I could shake a stick at.  Actually, as conservative as Dayton, OH, is, where I lived for six years right out of college, I didn't see them then.  But that's because Bush, Sr. and Clinton were running the country for all those years, so those ninnies kept their views where they should be - to themselves.

When I go back up to Rochester, I see that sort of stuff on the expressway, but not so much in that rural, small town I lived in and loved so much all those years (I try to drive through there at least once a year).  People who live there have pretty much always lived there, so, while it's clique-ish, they keep their beliefs to themselves.  I guess because they all know what's what and who's who, so they don't feel the need to advertise it.  I think the suburban sprawl makes people feel disconnected, somehow, and so they feel much more compelled to affix such things to their cars, I think, to say "Here I am!  This is what I'm about!"  It's just disturbing to me that more and more of them seem to be about spewing their religious beliefs in my general direction on the highways and byways.

I'm trying to sympathize with them, but there's an inherent arrogance to it I can't abide.  It's the same reason I can't keep my own in-your-face bumper stickers on my car for very long.  As angry as I am at them, I can't stand the thought of inflicting my views on others.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2006, 03:59:55 pm »
Quote
Quote from: ednbarby on May 27, 2006, 06:44:10 am
When churchies ask me where I go to church now,
Barb, I haven't been asked that since I left the South.  It sure was one of the first three questions people used to ask there.

When I was searching for an assisted living apartment for my mom a couple of years ago, the manager of one place asked me, conversationally, if she belonged to a church. I said yeah, she used to be active in the Unitarian Church. He gave a puzzled look and said "Unitarian. Is that a real religion?" He almost caught himself in time, but didn't (he stopped mid "religion").

That was in suburban Minneapolis, a pretty liberal city. When I lived in the South, no one ever asked me where I went to church (answer: nowhere), but then again I lived in New Orleans.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2006, 08:49:00 pm »
My own experience with the issues raised in this thread is that truth doesn't need defending.  Truth doesn't need proving.  Truth doesn't need me to proclaim it to be so.  It exists beyond me, and maybe in spite of me, but certainly not because of me. 

Amen, sister.  :)
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2006, 08:54:19 pm »
Barb, I haven't been asked that since I left the South.  It sure was one of the first three questions people used to ask there.

When I was searching for an assisted living apartment for my mom a couple of years ago, the manager of one place asked me, conversationally, if she belonged to a church. I said yeah, she used to be active in the Unitarian Church. He gave a puzzled look and said "Unitarian. Is that a real religion?" He almost caught himself in time, but didn't (he stopped mid "religion").

Now, asking that in that context isn't a bad thing.  But to editorialize her choice - GAH!  THAT'S the arrogance I'm talkin' 'bout.

What Celeste has said has struck a nerve.  Makes me think of a line from The Eagles' "The Great Divide" - "We satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds in the name of Destiny and in the name of God."

Every time I hear that song, I can't help but sing out loud the words "... and in the name of God."  So true it isn't even remotely funny.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2006, 11:17:15 pm »
Some "more abouts":

In my experience, churchgoing is much more about spending time with people who feel the same as you than your individual relationship with a deity. Churches are places for feeling good - though that can sometimes be the good feeling of guilt or fear.

Anyone who takes a global view can hardly fail to see that what people believe has vastly more to do with where they live (and what their parents believe) than any relationship to an objective reality.

I think our highly exaggerated respect for other people's religions has more to do with knowledge from bitter experience of the consequences of doing otherwise than any actual respect for things we can't help but think are foolish - according to our own (foolish) beliefs.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 05:14:23 am by Shuggy »

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2006, 12:39:51 am »
Quote
I think our highly exaggerated respect for other people's religions has more to do with knowledge from bitter experience of the consequences of doing otherwise than any actual respect for things we can't help but think are foolish - according to our own (foolish) beliefs.

Well said Shugs.

When journalists cannot criticize a recently deceased Pope on TV because they fear the death threats and avalanche of hate mail they'll get, when filmmakers are killed in the streets for daring to unveil a misogynistic way of life, when hundreds are killed over cartoons in the newspapers and locals have to endure taunts and threats and ostracism for daring to suggest maybe Christmas pagents in public schools are not such a great idea, you know where the 'respect'  comes from.

Fear. >:(
« Last Edit: June 01, 2006, 09:08:05 am by delalluvia »

Offline Lynne

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2006, 02:24:30 am »
There is so much good stuff here...I feel a *LONG* post coming on...apologies in advance. 

Dellaluvia - you make good points...I think I first started feeling alienated from the standard Christian religion after truly understanding the number of people dead directly/indirectly in the name 'God'...That never jibed with my view of a divine or anything I want to be remotely associated with.  And that extends to all other fundamentalist/exclusionary interpretations of 'God', not just Christian...This may be hugely controversial, but I see little difference between Osama et al. advocating destruction of US capital interests and Christian leaders here advocating assasinating a foreign head of state and blaming the WTC bombings on liberals, feminists, et.al.  I KNOW these delusionals do not represent the majority of their respective religions, but....I'm appalled at the lack of cohesive American Christian outrage after these kinds of statements.  Is it apathy? or passive acceptance?  Like it or not, in the absence of some strong clear voices denounciing these ideas, the rest of the world accepts it as a common opinion. 

Shuggy - you make terrific points about the connection between religion and community.  It's one of the reasons I really hesitate about vocalizing my own views beyond some general statements...religion is not just spiritual to plenty of people - it may encompass a cultural awareness and sense of community that is so fundamental that analysis is extremely complex.  You're not just questioning one belief, but an entire way of life and community that has as deep roots in tradition as much in belief in the divine.

Katharine/Barb/Clarissa/Celeste...all these stories about being questioned about church attendance, particularly in suburban/rural/South US...are so fascinating and ring entirely true for me.  I have to echo having similar experiences.  My ex (Price) and I first bonded over the fact that when he moved to TN as a single man, discussed dating/meeting new people, he was told that the best place to meet women was at church.  Being the CT yankee he was, it was 'No way will I go to church just to meet women.'  We worked for the same company and bonded over our rejection of that idea, among other things.

Impish....last but definintely not least...:)  My sincerest thanks for giving my post such thoughtful consideration.  I can always count on you.  Your opinion means so much to me, as you well know.  I think you are right on target that I err on the side of 'keeping the peace' when speaking my mind is a more right (and honest) course of action.

Peacekeeping is important but you're correct that if that causes me to temper/soften my honest opinion, it's not a true peace.  I'm going to work on that.  I don't tolerate racist or homophobic comments in my hearing - I call people on it and usually am very good about getting my point across without being confontational.  Not that being confrontational is the worst thing - but it should be a last resort imo - people generally respond better when they're not feeling personally attacked.  I've become more proactive about it since BBM...sorta a point of pride...

The spiritual beliefs are harder for me b/c there is such relativism, at least in my own mind.  Definitely, in a group of reasonable people having a discussion, I would not be shy to express my opinion.  But with some people, who already know me and where I stand, but still they insist on being evangelical, it does bother me to keep belaboring my own opinions...I don't know how much of that is a lack of desire for confrontation vs an aversion to an argument where we're not even starting from the same premises.  To me, that just boils down to a lack of respect of my viewpoints.  Since I think that's the core issue, that's the one that needs to be addressed first for me.

Thanks again, Impy, for understanding me and my issues.

-Lynne
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Offline Lebois

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2006, 08:50:53 am »
Hey

I'm an atheist but here in France it's not a big issue, so i support you morally Impish :)

Good fight ;)

Lebois

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2006, 09:50:27 am »

My own experience with the issues raised in this thread is that truth doesn't need defending.  Truth doesn't need proving.  Truth doesn't need me to proclaim it to be so.  It exists beyond me, and maybe in spite of me, but certainly not because of me. 

I wish Truth didn't defending, but it does.  I'm reading the book "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris (of the manifesto above), and he argues, quite convincingly, that the fundamentalists attack scientific knowledge with similar claims.  "We believe what we believe even though there isn't a shred of evidence to support us.  Evidence doesn't matter, because truth doesn't need defending."  That sort of thing.

Consider the efforts to get creationism into science classes.  That's not just trying to convert others to their mythology, it is also trying to change the very definition of science and how scientific inquiry operates.  It is an effort to lessen the importance of reason in scientific methodology.

I know that their "truth" is not the same truth you're talking about, Yaadpyar, but that's the point.  We do need to defend truth and how we go about discovering it.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2006, 06:20:33 pm »
I've been on the Paul Bettany IMDb board (with the ulterior motive of promoting my "WHAT WOULD SILAS DO??" t-shirts etc, and he's apparently an Out atheist. This led me to a database of atheists. One was Christopher Reeve http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Christopher_Reeve (who was a bit wishywashy as an atheist, with some burble about a "higher power") who offered this good quote:

I often refer to Abe Lincoln, who said, "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. And that is my religion."

Which reminds me of Tom Paine: "My country is the world and my religion, doing good" (That, incidentally, was told to me by my (pro bono) lawyer who represented me when I was a Conscientious Objector to Compulsory Military Training in 1965.)

I should put those on T-shirts, etc.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2006, 02:23:29 am by Shuggy »

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2006, 11:12:06 am »
Just discovered an amazing site:  God Is Imaginary

http://godisimaginary.com/index.htm

It's a list of 42 "proofs" that gods don't exist, while not strictly proof in the scientific sense, they certainly give food for thought. 

Like this  wonderful quote from Epicures (300 BCE)

"The gods can either take away evil from the world and will not, or, being willing to do so, cannot; or they neither can nor will, or lastly, they are both able and willing. If they have the will to remove evil and cannot, then they are not omnipotent. If they can, but will not, than they are not benevolent. If they are neither able nor willing, then they are neither omnipotent nor benevolent. Lastly, if they are both able and willing to annihilate evil, how does it exist?"

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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2006, 02:30:30 pm »
Just discovered an amazing site:  God Is Imaginary

http://godisimaginary.com/index.htm

It's a list of 42 "proofs" that gods don't exist, while not strictly proof in the scientific sense, they certainly give food for thought. 

Like this  wonderful quote from Epicures (300 BCE)

"The gods can either take away evil from the world and will not, or, being willing to do so, cannot; or they neither can nor will, or lastly, they are both able and willing. If they have the will to remove evil and cannot, then they are not omnipotent. If they can, but will not, than they are not benevolent. If they are neither able nor willing, then they are neither omnipotent nor benevolent. Lastly, if they are both able and willing to annihilate evil, how does it exist?"

Wow.  This has been my husband's view all along, though not so thoroughly covering all angles.  He's often said that the fact that there is so much evil and suffering in the world just goes to show that if there is an all-seeing being, he watches us from a distance like a grand experiment in a petry dish and does nothing to intervene either because he cannot or because he will not.  In either case, such a being does not deserve worship.  He doesn't buy that he only intervenes every so often, and those are miracles.  Nor do I.  Why does one person suffering from cancer get the cancer irradicated, and that's proof God exists and hears our prayers, while a couple hundred thousand die in a massive tidal wave?  How arrogant to think that God hears *you* or your loved ones and not all those other people.
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Offline Sheyne

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2006, 06:16:08 pm »
Well said Shugs.

When journalists cannot criticize a recently deceased Pope on TV because they fear the death threats and avalanche of hate mail they'll get, when filmmakers are killed in the streets for daring to unveil a misogynistic way of life, when hundreds are killed over cartoons in the newspapers and locals have to endure taunts and threats and ostracism for daring to suggest maybe Christmas pagents in public schools are not such a great idea, you know where the 'respect'  comes from.

Fear. >:(

Wow. So true, Del. So true.
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Offline cmr107

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2006, 06:49:40 pm »
Hi everyone. I just discovered this thread, so I'm jumping in with my story.

Both of my parents are Presbyterian ministers (they met at seminary, incidentally). They both had their own churches at some point but both have other careers now and only preach to fill in every once in a while. Needless to say, I have gone to church my whole life (for those of you who don't know, I'm 19 and just finished my first year of college). Several years ago I began to wonder if God really exists, but I continued to go to church.

I took a theology class this year called 'The Problem of Evil' which turned out to be pretty interesting. The professor is a minister but he almost seemed to be trying to convince us that God does not exist. That class was where I first heard the term 'agnostic', and I can't believe I never knew that word before. I've been agnostic for a long time but never knew how to define it. I'm still young and I think I may come to the point of being an atheist eventually, but I'm not ready to get there yet. Part of my problem may be hesitation to reject what my parents believe and what I thought I believed for so long, but I don't think so. I think I just need more time and life experience.

We had a big paper to write for that class, and I wrote about being agnostic. Both my parents and the pastor of the church I have gone to for about 12 years read it and loved it. They thought it was great that I was thinking about things, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.

I think really the only thing that keeps me going to church while I'm at home is the people. The only one I have ever actually talked about religion with is the pastor. There are some really great people there who I have known for a long time. And they all love me because I'm the only kid my age who still ever goes to church.  ;)

This is a really great discussion. Keep it up!

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2006, 06:57:36 pm »
I found a lecture by Sam Harris (of the Atheist Manifesto above and book "The End of Faith") available online.  It is truly amazing...  this man is rocking my world in a big way.

The MP3 file is 1 hour 20 minutes long, but his lecture last about an hour and then there is a Q & A session after that.

So if you're doing busywork at your computer, or jogging with your iPod, give this a try.  I guarantee that you will not be bored.  You may or may not agree, but you will NOT BE BORED!

You can go to this page http://www.samharris.org/index.php/samharris/radio/ and download the lecture titled  "The View From the End of the World."  To download, right-click the link and choose "Save Link As."

If you want to listen without downloading, click this link:

http://longnow.chubbo.net/salt-0200512-harris/salt-0200512-harris.mp3

I really hope someone will give this a try....
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2006, 08:11:29 pm »
Wow.  This has been my husband's view all along, though not so thoroughly covering all angles.  He's often said that the fact that there is so much evil and suffering in the world just goes to show that if there is an all-seeing being, he watches us from a distance like a grand experiment in a petry dish and does nothing to intervene either because he cannot or because he will not.  In either case, such a being does not deserve worship.  He doesn't buy that he only intervenes every so often, and those are miracles.  Nor do I.  Why does one person suffering from cancer get the cancer irradicated, and that's proof God exists and hears our prayers, while a couple hundred thousand die in a massive tidal wave?  How arrogant to think that God hears *you* or your loved ones and not all those other people.

The counterargument from the ancients wasn't that one 'worshipped' these gods, but that one placated them.  They had the power to avert disaster and evil, but you - the suppliant - had to make it worth their while.  Christianity has so 'flavored' our idea of gods that we imagine that a god must be loving.

Some of these gods aren't/weren't loving.

Indeed, one of the typical invocations of the ancient Romans was Do ut des "I give so that you may give".

Let's make a deal, in other words.  I scratch your back, you scratch mine.  The gods were capricious and tempermental, but in the minds of the ancients, worthy of trying to placate since they controlled the elements and you didn't.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2006, 09:24:18 pm by delalluvia »

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2006, 02:31:54 am »
I often refer to Abe Lincoln, who said, "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. And that is my religion."

Which reminds me of Tom Paine: "My country is the world and my religion, doing good" (That, incidentally, was told to me by my (pro bono) lawyer who represented me when I was a Conscientious Objector to Compulsory Military Training in 1965.)

I should put those on T-shirts, etc.
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Offline Impish

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An atheist's idea of positive spirituality
« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2006, 10:39:25 am »
As I continue reading "The End of Faith" I came across a section that shows that author Sam Harris does see the value of spiritual experience, in the way he defines it.  He is not  one of those cynics who can do nothing more than gripe about dogma.

I thought I'd present a passage that impressed me last night:

___________
The World beyond Reason

As we will see in the last chapter of this book, there is little doubt that a certain range of human experience can be appropriately described as "spiritual" or "mystical" --experiences of meaningfulness, selflessness, and heightened emotion that surpass our narrow identities as "selves" and escape our current understanding of the mind and brain.  But nothing about these experiences justifies arrogant and exclusionary claims about the unique sanctity of any text.  There is no reason that our ability to sustain ourselves emotionally and spiritually cannot evolve with technology, politics, and the rest of culture.  Indeed, it must evolve, if we are to have any future at all.

The basis of our spirituality surely consists in this:  the range of possible human experience far exceeds the ordinary limits of our subjectivity.  Clearly, some experiences can utterly transform a person's vision of the world.  Every spiritual tradition rests on the insight that how we use our attention, from moment to moment, largely determines the quality of our lives.  Many of the results of spiritual practice are genuinely desirable, and we owe it to ourselves to seek them out.  It is important to note that these changes are not merely emotional but cognitive and conceptual as well.  Just as it is possible for us to have insights in fields like mathematics or biology, it is possible for us to have insights about the very nature of our own subjectivity.  A variety of techniques, ranging from the practice of meditation to the use of psychedelic drugs, attest to the scope of plasticity of human experience.  For millennia, contemplatives have known that ordinary people can divest themselves of the feeling that they call "I" and thereby relinquish the sense that they are separate from the rest of the universe.  This phenomenon, which as been reported by practitioners in many spiritual traditions, is supported by a wealth of evidence --neuroscientific, philosophical, and introspective.  Such experiences are "spiritual" or "mystical," for want of better words, in that they are relatively rare (unnecessarily so), significant (in that they uncover genuine facts about the world), and personally transformative.  They also reveal a far deeper connection between ourselves and the rest of the universe than is suggested by the ordinary confines of our subjectivity.  There is no doubt that experiences of this sort are worth seeking, just as there is no doubt that the popular religious ideas that have grown up around them, especially in the West, are as dangerous as they are incredible.  A truly rational approach to this dimension of our lives would allow us to explore the heights of our subjectivity with an open mind, while shedding the provincialism and dogmatism of our religious traditions in favor of free and rigorous inquiry.

pp 39-41.

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2006, 12:24:51 pm »
The Paine quote is now up at http://www.cafepress.com/wero/1440313 (one page out so you can see the others on this theme - I've also made them more legible). I've created the Lincoln image, but there's a gay film festival on at the moment and I'm staying at my man's place most nights, so it'll be a day or two before I put it up.

The 'WWJD?  What would Judas do?' is just too deliciously wicked!

Better than my personal fav 'WWJD?  What would J-Lo Do?'.

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2006, 07:56:29 pm »
The 'WWJD?  What would Judas do?' is just too deliciously wicked!

Better than my personal fav 'WWJD?  What would J-Lo Do?'.
Thanks. That was my intention (so far as I know, it's original), but I was wondering how I would justify it if anyone challenged it.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2006, 08:45:08 pm »
Thanks. That was my intention (so far as I know, it's original), but I was wondering how I would justify it if anyone challenged it.

What would anyone challenge?

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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A dumb question....
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2006, 09:40:00 pm »
I can hear everyone booing already, but has anyone ever met an athiest named Godfrey?
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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2006, 03:16:05 am »
What would anyone challenge?
Well, WWJD people aren't noted for their sense of humour, and I can imagine one saying "'What would Judas do?' You look to Judas for your role-model?"

I guess you could string them along and say "Don't knock Judas. Without him, your Jeeezus would never have been crucified, and we'd all be still on our way to Hell." - a la the Gospel of Judas (and JC Supersatar).

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2006, 11:42:35 am »
Well, WWJD people aren't noted for their sense of humour, and I can imagine one saying "'What would Judas do?' You look to Judas for your role-model?"

I guess you could string them along and say "Don't knock Judas. Without him, your Jeeezus would never have been crucified, and we'd all be still on our way to Hell." - a la the Gospel of Judas (and JC Supersatar).

Well, see there?  Great defense and completely logical.  Jesus needed Judas' betrayal to become what he did.  If Satan had succeeded, Jesus would have lived a long and healthy life, Judas was an instrument of god.  And yes you could use him as a role-model.

Who wants to do something according to the will of god - against your own friend/colleague/son of god - and then instead of being rewarded, be so tortured about having to do it that you killed yourself in spite of your own beliefs, then vilified for millennia?

Doing all that takes balls of brass.  Why shouldn't Judas be recognized for his sacrifice? 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2006, 11:45:16 am by delalluvia »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2006, 05:59:28 pm »
I guess you could string them along and say "Don't knock Judas. Without him, your Jeeezus would never have been crucified, and we'd all be still on our way to Hell." - a la the Gospel of Judas (and JC Supersatar).

Right, Shuggy! When I was in about ninth grade, we listened to Jesus Christ Superstar in school choir. I loved it so much I bought the album, listened to it about 200 times, memorized the entire thing. Anyway, Judas is really the hero of that opera -- a much more sympathetic figure than the relatively distant and self-important Jesus. He keeps trying to get Jesus to get off the son-of-God ego trip and focus on his initial goals of helping the poor. Ultimately, Judas betrays Jesus because he sincerely thinks it's the right thing to do.

Oh, and the issue of Jesus' divinity is left completely ambiguous (in fact, it offers no evidence that his enduring influence is anything more than, as Judas puts it, "good PR.")

So two questions: What school these days would dare allow anything so controversial (for both the Right and Left, actually)? Who knew Andrew Lloyd Webber could be edgy?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2006, 06:44:07 pm by latjoreme »

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #66 on: June 04, 2006, 06:39:47 pm »
I lived in England when I was 20, as a French language assistant in a secondary (High) school; I hadn't heard of JC Superstar, or had heard of it but never seen it, taking it as too religious stuff for me.
The kids did it for the school play there in England, and I was shocked to see I loved it! It did reconcile me, sort of, with that clique  ;)
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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #67 on: June 04, 2006, 07:18:39 pm »
JC Superstar also led to a brief flirtation with returning to christianity when I was ... oh.. perhaps 16 years old.  Luckily, a friend said to me that "christianity was a religion for children."  It took some time for me to understand what he meant exactly.  He meant that the myths and metaphors encouraged its followers to view themselves as children ("god the father," being a member of the "flock," addressing priests 'Father'... the list goes on and on).

Still love the music and own the DVD of Norman Jewison's JC Superstar.
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Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2006, 07:53:39 pm »
Reply to a Christian, by Sam Harris
From:  Council for Secular Humanism (http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=sharris_26_4)

Since the publication of my first book, The End of Faith, I have received thousands of letters and e-mails from religious believers insisting that I am wrong not to believe in God. Invariably, the most unpleasant of these communications have come from Christians. This is ironic, as Christians generally believe that no faith imparts the virtues of love and forgiveness more effectively than their own. Please accept this for what it is: the testimony of a man who is in a position to observe how people behave when their faith is challenged. Many who claim to have been transformed by Christ's love are deeply, even murderously, intolerant of criticism. While you may ascribe this to human nature, it is clear that the hatred these people feel comes directly from the Bible. How do I know this? Because the most deranged of my correspondents always cite chapter and verse.

Before I present some of my reasons for rejecting your faith-which are also my reasons for believing that you, too, should reject it-I want to acknowledge that there are a few things that you and I agree about. We agree that, if one of us is right, then the other is wrong. The Bible either is the word of God, or it isn't. Either Jesus offers humanity the one, true path to salvation (John 14:6), or he does not. We agree that to be a real Christian is to believe that all other faiths are in error and profoundly so. If Christianity is correct, and I persist in my unbelief, I should expect to suffer the torments of hell. Worse still, I have persuaded others, many close to me, to persist in a state of unbelief. They, too, will languish in "everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41). If the claims of Christianity are true, I will have realized the worst possible outcome of a human life. The fact that my continuous and public rejection of Christianity does not worry me should suggest to you just how unsatisfactory I think your reasons for being a Christian are.

You believe that the Bible is the literal (or inspired) word of God and that Jesus is the Son of God-and you believe these propositions because you think they are true, not merely because they make you feel good. You may wonder how it is possible for a person like myself to find these sorts of assertions ridiculous. While it is famously difficult for atheists and believers to communicate about these matters, I am confident that I can give you a very clear sense of what it feels like to be an atheist.Consider: every devout Muslim has the same reasons for being a Muslim that you now have for being a Christian. And yet, you know exactly what it is like not to find these reasons compelling. On virtually every page, the Qur'an declares that it is the perfect word of the Creator of the universe. Muslims believe this as fully as you believe the Bible's account of itself. There is a vast literature describing the life of Muhammad that, from the Muslim point of view, proves his unique status as the Prophet of God. While Muhammad did not claim to be divine, he claimed to offer the most perfect revelation of God's will. He also assured his followers that Jesus was not divine (Qur'an 5:71-75; 19:30-38) and that anyone who believed otherwise would spend eternity in hell. Muslims are convinced that Muhammad's pronouncements on these subjects, as on all others, are infallible.

Why don't you find these claims convincing? Why don't you lose any sleep over whether or not you should convert to Islam? Please take a moment to reflect on this. You know exactly what it is like to be an atheist with respect to Islam. Isn't it obvious that Muslims are not being honest in their evaluation of the evidence? Isn't it obvious that anyone who thinks that the Qur'an is the perfect word of the Creator of the universe has not read the book very critically? Isn't it obvious that Muslims have developed a mode of discourse that seeks to preserve dogma, generation after generation, rather than question it? Yes, these things are obvious. Understand that the way you view Islam is precisely the way every Muslim views Christianity. And it is the way I view all religions.

Christians regularly assert that the Bible predicts future historical events. For instance, Deuteronomy 28:64 says, "The Lord will scatter you among the nations from one end of the earth to the other." Jesus says, in Luke 19:43-44, "The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you." We are meant to believe that these utterances predict the subsequent history of the Jews with such uncanny specificity so as to admit of only a supernatural explanation. It is on the basis of such reasoning that 44 percent of the American population now believes that Jesus will return to earth to judge the living and the dead sometime in the next fifty years.

But just imagine how breathtakingly specific a work of prophecy could be if it were actually the product of omniscience. If the Bible were such a book, it would make specific, falsifiable predictions about human events. You would expect it to contain a passage like, "In the latter half of the twentieth century, humankind will develop a globally linked system of computers-the principles of which I set forth in Leviticus-and this system shall be called the Internet." The Bible contains nothing remotely like this. In fact, it does not contain a single sentence that could not have been written by a man or woman living in the first century.

Take a moment to imagine how good a book could be if it were written by the Creator of the universe. Such a book could contain a chapter on mathematics that, after two thousand years of continuous use, would still be the richest source of mathematical insight the earth has ever seen. Instead, the Bible contains some very obvious mathematical errors. In two places, for instance, the Good Book gives the ratio of a circumference of a circle to its diameter as simply 3 (1 Kings 7: 23-26 and 2 Chronicles 4: 2-5). We now refer to this constant relation with the Greek letter p. While the decimal expansion of p runs to infinity-3.1415926535 . . .-we can calculate it to any degree of accuracy we like. Centuries before the oldest books of the Bible were written, both the Egyptians and Babylonians approximated p to a few decimal places. And yet the Bible-whether inerrant or divinely inspired-offers us an approximation that is terrible even by the standards of the ancient world. Needless to say, many religious people have found ingenious ways of rationalizing this. And yet, these rationalizations cannot conceal the obvious deficiency of the Bible as a source of mathematical insight. It is absolutely true to say that, if Archimedes had written a chapter of the Bible, the text would bear much greater evidence of the author's "omniscience."

Why doesn't the Bible say anything about electricity, about DNA, or about the actual age and size of the universe? What about a cure for cancer? Millions of people are dying horribly from cancer at this very moment, many of them children. When we fully understand the biology of cancer, this understanding will surely be reducible to a few pages of text. Why aren't these pages, or anything remotely like them, found in the Bible? The Bible is a very big book. There was room for God to instruct us on how to keep slaves and sacrifice a wide variety of animals. Please appreciate how this looks to one who stands outside the Christian faith. It is genuinely amazing how ordinary a book can be and still be thought the product of omniscience.

Of course, your reasons for believing in God may be more personal than those I have discussed above. I have no doubt that your acceptance of Christ coincided with some very positive changes in your life. Perhaps you regularly feel rapture or bliss while in prayer. I do not wish to denigrate any of these experiences. I would point out, however, that billions of other human beings, in every time and place, have had similar experiences-but they had them while thinking about Krishna, or Allah, or the Buddha, while making art or music, or while contemplating the sheer beauty of nature. There is no question that it is possible for us to have profoundly transformative experiences. And there is no question that it is possible for us to misinterpret these experiences and to further delude ourselves about the nature of the universe.

If you have read my letter this far, one of two things has happened. Either you have perceived some error that is genuinely fatal to my argument, or you have ceased to be a Christian. Please don't hesitate to contact me with any errors you may have found. You could yet save me the torments of hell.
_______________
Sam Harris is the author of The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason. His next book, Letter to a Christian Nation, will be published this fall by Knopf.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2006, 01:38:08 pm »
Sam Harris' reply was well done.  My only criticism is that he might have pared it down a bit.  Obviously devout Christians don't read much of their own bible - a book they hold as inspired by god - so why would they wade through a wall of text from an unbeliever?

I've suggested the same kind of comparisons to Born-Again friends of mine - college-educated friends.  I've no idea how they deal with the info.  A religious conversation with them that leads my suggesting such a comparison to them, invariably ends with no response from them and we move on to what they can answer.

Only rabid believers with personal issues - those you imagine burned witches back when and would do it again if allowed - immediately come back with the answer to Harris' question.

Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, etc have all been led astray by Satan.

That answer has been conveniently provided to them by the bible itself.

And believers should close their eyes and plug their ears and sing lalalalalalalalala whenever any such logical questions are put to them because Satan is trying to dissuade them from the 'true' faith.

It's frustrating and scary that these types of believers are so far beyond the reach of rational thinking.  It's insidious that such religious texts should include a 'response' to such questioning that believers feel their souls are in jeopardy should they even so much as question and should destroy any who do question.

That is the evil inherent in such exclusivist religions.

In principle, they are no different than the 'religions' run by David Koresh or Jim Jones. 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2006, 02:22:58 pm by delalluvia »

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2006, 07:47:39 pm »

And believers should close their eyes and plug their ears and sing lalalalalalalalala whenever any such logical questions are put to them because Satan is trying to dissuade them from the 'true' faith.

About your entire reply, delalluvia: well said!

About the part I quoted:  One of the recurring themes in Harris' writings and lectures is that faith is a conversation stopper.  That's his biggest beef:  that we can't even talk to believers rationally....  for faith means an unwillingness to even consider the possibility of changing one's mind from dialogue or new evidence. 

I always shudder when I see Christians talk about the "brainwashing" that occurs in other "New Age" religions.  At least adults who join so-called cults did so after thinking about the belief system they're joining.  No "brainwashing" could ever be as complete as that of raising a child to believe such nonsense, and then tell them they'll be damned if they even try to think things through rationally.  "Don't try to learn anything from another point of view," they're told (the sin of eating from the Tree of Knowledge), and strong faith -- meaning believing something against all evidence -- is considered holy.

I die  a little inside every time I think about it.



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Offline Lynne

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2006, 12:10:56 am »
Faith being a conversation stopper is key here to my own experiences.  No matter how innocently I introduce a subject that would be a good one to discuss in terms of faith and reason, conversations stray quickly from rational thought to speculation.  I'd say that it is near impossible for people who hold differing opinions.  It's sad because it limits the growth that would be possible with people when open and truly encompassing dialog is permitted.

It's one of the reasons I've shied away from debates of that sort in years past...I've reopened some of that since BBM to mixed results.  My idea was to see the 'covering' that people do so they will 'fit in' and try to address the covering of non-religion where I saw it in my life.  Not entirely successful to be sure.    As far as openness goes, that part is working well enough.   But I have not achieved any real dialaogue yet.  And that is partially my fault because I try to avoid controversy and I haven't yet been able to frame my thoughts into words that do not sound judging or confrontational.  Impy - I may need a workshop on that skill ;)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 11:40:33 am by Lynne »
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Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2006, 10:06:18 am »
Impy - I may need a workshop on that skill ;)

"Impy."  I like that!
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Offline isabelle

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2006, 07:19:14 am »
I thought this might be of interest to you all; as I have stated before, I am interest in Buddhism, but I am just in a phase of observation right now; so I wanted to find out what Buddhism said of homosexuality. I found this article. It is long, but very enjoyable, and more and more so as you go along, so it is well worth reading through!
Enjoy the comment on St Paul being" highly neurotic" (he is the one who condemned - male - homosexuality in the Bible) among other gems!

http://www.buddhanet.net/homosexu.htm

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Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2006, 11:15:41 am »
I practiced Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism for 23 years, and was very involved in its lay organization during that time.  I left when the lay organization evolved into a cult, worshipping its "President," Daisaku Ikeda.  The priesthood excommunicated Ikeda in the early 90's, and so now that organization (SGI) claims to be its own sect of Buddhism.  Stay away from SGI (trust me on this).  Nichiren Shoshu remains a valid choice, and is worth investigating.

As a whole, Buddhism has a lot to offer, but one has to be careful because like all religions, there are many different kinds.  Some sects are atheistic -- as Nichiren Shoshu is -- and others believe that the Buddha resides in a heaven much like the christian one.  Some of it's ancient art even show angels with halos.  I'm unfamiliar with Theravada Buddhism, the sect of the article you referenced.  It's name leads me to believe it's based in India. 

FYI: The Dalai Lama (sp?) of Tibetan Buddsim has taken a public stance that supports gay people unequivocally.

Many atheist scholars, like Sam Harris,  recognize the good Buddhism can do; and certainly is the least offensive of the world's five major religions. 
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Offline isabelle

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #75 on: June 14, 2006, 12:23:59 pm »
Thanks, Impish. I'd never heard of SGI, or maybe only the name, but I'll watch out for them.

Glad to know the Dalai Lama supports gays. I have read that in the US, some Buddhist groups (don't know what to call them) celebrate gay unions.
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Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2006, 10:09:28 am »
In Austin Texas, a local organization of Atheists had a booth at Austin's Gay Pride Festival.  It touches me that a bunch of straight people would take the time and trouble to do this.

Here's a report on their Pride activites.  It includes the text of the brochure they were handing out, titled "Why Atheists Care About Gay Rights". You'll probably have to scroll down past the pictures to see it. 

http://www.atheist-community.org/scrapbooks/2006pride.php
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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #77 on: June 15, 2006, 06:35:59 pm »
I practiced Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism for 23 years, and was very involved in its lay organization during that time.  I left when the lay organization evolved into a cult, worshipping its "President," Daisaku Ikeda.  The priesthood excommunicated Ikeda in the early 90's, and so now that organization (SGI) claims to be its own sect of Buddhism.  Stay away from SGI (trust me on this).  Nichiren Shoshu remains a valid choice, and is worth investigating.

I investigated Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism briefly and wasn't very impressed. Maybe the local devotees weren't a good example. Lovely people, but
1. One almost worshipped her gohonsen (cupboard/altar in which scrolls containing the mantra are kept) - didn't seem a good example of non-attachment to me.
2. Others gabbled the Japanese prayer (?) from a book of phonetic Japanese with little understanding of or even interest in its meaning.
I didn't get much past that to what they believe or how it should make you behave. It seemed almost to be a Pentecostal (ObBBM!) kind of Buddhism.

But I can still intone "Nam Yoho Renje Kyo"....

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #78 on: June 15, 2006, 07:16:21 pm »
But I can still intone "Nam Yoho Renje Kyo"....

Actually, it's

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

and pronounced "Nahm Mee-oh-ho Ren-gay Kee-oh"  (that last one is pretty much one syllable)

 :)
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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2006, 01:26:04 am »
Actually, it's

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

and pronounced "Nahm Mee-oh-ho Ren-gay Kee-oh"  (that last one is pretty much one syllable)

 :)
I bow to you on the spelling, but our devotees definitely say "nah-myoh-ho, ren-djeh-kyo" Japanese speakers might laugh at all of us. Or maybe our devotees learnt from speakers from different parts of Japan.

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2006, 11:16:32 am »
I found another great section from Harris' "The End of Faith," in which he discusses the fact that many of our laws are nothing more than an attempt to punish "sin."

Excerpts (italics from Harris, boldface from me):

"In the United States, and in much of the rest of the world, it is currently illegal to seek certain experiences of pleasure.  Seek pleasure by a forbidden means, even in the privacy of your own home, and men with guns may kick in the door and carry you away to prison for it.  On of the most surprising things abut this situation is how unsurprising most of us find it.

Behaviours like drug use, prostitution, sodomy and the viewing of obscene materials have been categorized as "victimless crimes."

(omitted: his discussion of those cases where these things are not "victimless" and then asks us to focus on those cases where they truly are without victims)

"...we must ask ourselves, why would anyone want to punish people for engaging in behavior that brings no significant risk of harm to anyone.  ....   The idea of a victimless crime is nothing more than a judicial reprise of the Christian notion of sin.

It is no accident that people of faith often want to curtail the private freedoms of others.  This impulse has less to do with the history of religion and more to do with its logic, because the very idea of privacy is incompatible with the existence of God.  If God sees and knows all things, and remains so provincial a creature as to be scandalized by certain sexual behaviors or states of the brain, then what people do in the privacy of their own homes, though it may not have the implication for their behavior in public, will still be a matter of public concern for people of faith.

A variety of religious notions of wrongdoing can be seen converging here -- concerns over nonprocreative sexuality and idolatry especially -- and these seem to have given many of us the sense that it is ethical to punish people, often severely, for engaging in private behavior that harms no one."

...

"When one looks at our ... our vice laws  the only organizing principle that appears to make sense of them is that anything which might radically eclipse prayer or procreative sexuality as a source of pleasure has been outlawed."

...

"Because we are a people of faith, taught to concern ourselves with the sinfulness of our neighbors, we have grown tolerant of irrational uses of state power."
« Last Edit: June 20, 2006, 11:19:23 am by Impish »
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2006, 10:51:38 pm »
Oddly, enough, thanks to your freedom of religion, frank idolatory or polytheism would be better accepted in the US than homosexuality. Very odd.

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« Reply #82 on: July 05, 2006, 03:39:08 pm »
Did you see the headlines?       Ken Lay from Emron DEAD at 64!

I used to be Agnostic/Athiest,  but now I am thinking there MUST be a God to do that!     Crooks like that shouldn't be able to rob people then live like Kings just because they put all their wealth in their wifes name. 

They say that God works in mysterious ways.   Maybe this was his way of evening the score?   Or is that the Grim reapers job?    I don't know.   It is almost like a Twilight zone episode.

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Re: OMG! there IS a GOD!
« Reply #83 on: July 05, 2006, 08:20:58 pm »
Did you see the headlines?       Ken Lay from Emron DEAD at 64!

I used to be Agnostic/Athiest,  but now I am thinking there MUST be a God to do that!     Crooks like that shouldn't be able to rob people then live like Kings just because they put all their wealth in their wifes name. 

They say that God works in mysterious ways.   Maybe this was his way of evening the score?   Or is that the Grim reapers job?    I don't know.   It is almost like a Twilight zone episode.

Yeah, it is Twilight Zone-ish, but if there's a god out there who strikes down crooks, I wish he'd get to work on Bush, Rove, Cheney, Rice, Falwell, Robertson, Reed,....  I good go on forever here!   :o
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Offline David

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #84 on: July 05, 2006, 08:23:54 pm »
Now  now.... I wouldn't wish any of them dead.    If you want to really hurt them, 

Make them poor!      ;D

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2006, 07:24:47 pm »
I came across a quote I like that was said by a character in a David Ellis novel:

"Philosophy is the study of questions that cannot be answered; religion is the study of answers that cannot be questioned."

Pretty pithy, huh? :laugh:
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Offline isabelle

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2006, 07:37:39 pm »
That's a good one, Impish! Will keep it in mind, to use in my family reunions ;D. OK, maybe not!
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Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #87 on: July 10, 2006, 09:07:08 pm »
It's easy to confuse atheism with existentialism:  all existentialists are atheists, but not all atheists are existentialists.

Not all existentialists are atheists.  There is a strong vein of religious existentialism, of which Soren Kirkegaard is an example.  Personally, my interpretation of existentialism is purely atheistic, and influenced a bit by Sartre.

One thing that struck me about Brokeback Mountain is that it's the purest example of existentialism in film that I've ever seen -- start to finish.  Existential themes have been taken up in a lot literature, but never in film or television -- at least, not to this degree.  This is part of what absolutely floored me while watching, and it has a lot to do with the film as a work of art.

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #88 on: July 11, 2006, 10:00:51 am »
Not all existentialists are atheists.  There is a strong vein of religious existentialism, of which Soren Kirkegaard is an example.

I'm fascinated.  Could you give a brief summary of the beliefs of religious existentialists?  Are these people who believe in a god but don't believe in an afterlife? 
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #89 on: July 11, 2006, 08:22:28 pm »
I came across a quote I like that was said by a character in a David Ellis novel:
"Philosophy is the study of questions that cannot be answered; religion is the study of answers that cannot be questioned."

Good one.  Was depressed again upon reading a woman's letter to the editor after one magazine wrote up an interesting article on 'Harry Potter' and its themes.

To paraphrase one part of her letter - she was a Christian - "I don't care if you spell it demon or daemon, it's still a demon..."

Yet another fine example of the closed-mindedness and ignorance that the exclusivist religions encourage.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #90 on: July 11, 2006, 11:29:18 pm »
One thing that struck me about Brokeback Mountain is that it's the purest example of existentialism in film that I've ever seen -- start to finish.  Existential themes have been taken up in a lot literature, but never in film or television -- at least, not to this degree.  This is part of what absolutely floored me while watching, and it has a lot to do with the film as a work of art.

Would you be willing to explain this a bit more (maybe in a new thread in the Open Forum rather than here)? A college friend once called me an existentialist, and I've never fully understood what he meant (even after reading a little Sartre... well, ok, so I didn't read French well enough to really understand Sartre, either). I'm wondering if whatever-that-connection-is might help me understand why BBM knocked me for a loop like this.
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2006, 12:50:13 am »
Reply to a Christian, by Sam Harris
From:  Council for Secular Humanism (http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=sharris_26_4)

... Of course, your reasons for believing in God may be more personal than those I have discussed above. I have no doubt that your acceptance of Christ coincided with some very positive changes in your life. Perhaps you regularly feel rapture or bliss while in prayer. I do not wish to denigrate any of these experiences. I would point out, however, that billions of other human beings, in every time and place, have had similar experiences-but they had them while thinking about Krishna, or Allah, or the Buddha, while making art or music, or while contemplating the sheer beauty of nature. There is no question that it is possible for us to have profoundly transformative experiences. And there is no question that it is possible for us to misinterpret these experiences and to further delude ourselves about the nature of the universe.

sorry, jumping into this rather late. Impish, thank you for posting that article. I really liked reading Harris's reasoning and logic. The section I quoted suddenly made sense of something for me. While practicing Buddhism growing up or trying Christianity while in high school, they never made sense to me. I never had that transformative ecstasy that so many claimed to have. That is until BBM. The film/story/characters did bring me to a point of breaking down my walls and forcing me to look at my life honestly. A few days after seeing the film, I woke up in bed, convulsively crying, realizing exactly what I had been hiding from myself, and why. I came out the other end of that experience with a clearer vision of how my life is suppose to be. I never thought of it as a "transformative experience", but Harris's words suddenly clicked. There was a cleansing, here was ecstasy, and I was transformed. Now I understand why in conjunction with thinking about God, Allah, or Buddha, such an experience can incite such an adamant faith in a religion.

I don't quite agree with Harris on the need to convince others to reject their faith, however. I think that for many faith is something they need to comfort or to give meaning and order to their lives. We need only to convince them that they must accept that others have faith in different things and ideas. It is okay to have personal reason to hold on to faith, no?

and for answering the original post, I don't know if I'd say I'm an Atheist. I'm perfect willing to accept that there is a god, as well as to accept that there is NO god. I certainly believe that their are spiritual realms beyond our own, from personal experience. (see the ghost thread in the poll forum) but the experience was personal, so I don't offer it as proof to anyone that they should believe as I do. I don't believe that any of the religions have the right answer. Buddhism at its heart with its message of moderation as the answer to life's suffering is probably the only one that comes closest to being an answer I can accept. So I think "agnostic" is more appropriate to describe my religious affiliation?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 12:58:44 am by starboardlight »
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2006, 10:17:59 am »
Would you be willing to explain this a bit more (maybe in a new thread in the Open Forum rather than here)? A college friend once called me an existentialist, and I've never fully understood what he meant (even after reading a little Sartre... well, ok, so I didn't read French well enough to really understand Sartre, either). I'm wondering if whatever-that-connection-is might help me understand why BBM knocked me for a loop like this.

Not to steal TexRob's thunder, but I've been called an existentialist, too.  The Wikipedia definition leaves me kind of cold.  The way I see it, being an existentialist is being someone trying to find meaning in a godless world.  The existential dilemma is trying to decide what is right and what is wrong in a world where no one will ultimately judge us for our actions - i.e., since there is no God, if I can get away with it, what's to stop me from lying, stealing, killing?  I don't think it's an accurate moniker for me now, because I have found meaning and I do know what's to stop me - my own conscience.  The existentialist believes he or she exists separately from all other individuals (and from God) and doesn't need anyone else for anything.  I'm too much of a social animal for that.  I'm a humanist, I think.  I think we're all connected through our very humanity - through the fact that we all need sleep and water and food, that we all laugh and weep, that we all die.  So I'm still a little miffed that this person thinks that of me.  Either she doesn't really understand the word or she doesn't really understand me.  Just being an atheist alone doesn't make one existential, like she thought.  One can find a great deal of meaning in life and in nature without the existence of a god or gods.
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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2006, 10:46:21 am »
Buddhism at its heart with its message of moderation as the answer to life's suffering is probably the only one that comes closest to being an answer I can accept. So I think "agnostic" is more appropriate to describe my religious affiliation?

Thanks for joining the discussion.  As to how you describe yourself, that is of course up to you.  If you remain undecided about the existence of gods, then yes, our society would deem you agnostic.

Harris' book "The End of Faith" has had an enormous impact on me.  While the major theme in the book is the irrationality of religion(s), he also devotes a chapter to his view of rational spirituality, in the vein of what he only mentions in your quote of him above.  I think you would enjoy it.

But here I go recommending another book!  :P  Not everyone  enjoys reading as much as I do...  so I'm not sure recommending books is really useful.

Let me ask you:  did you ever get the chance to read the "Covering" book?

 
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Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2006, 11:01:37 am »
I'm a humanist, I think.  I think we're all connected through our very humanity - through the fact that we all need sleep and water and food, that we all laugh and weep, that we all die.  So I'm still a little miffed that this person thinks that of me.  Either she doesn't really understand the word or she doesn't really understand me.  Just being an atheist alone doesn't make one existential, like she thought.  One can find a great deal of meaning in life and in nature without the existence of a god or gods.

Existentialism is  barely understood by many, including me.  Like you, I'm  hoping that TexRob will help us understand it better.  I consider myself an existentialist only in the sense that I believe that when I die, that's it.  I no longer exist.  I'm sure that's a superficial understanding on my part.

I consider myself a Secular Humanist, a phrase that the christian right has managed to denigrate in the U.S.  You may be interested in this website (and its affiliates); they also have a podcast called "Point of Inquiry" that is top-notch, and the latest episode interviewed Paul Kurtz, who founded Secular Humanism.

And coincidentally (?), in that episode Kurtz discusses the morality and "goodness" of atheists and humanists, and how much more meaningful it is when it's not motivated by fear of death, or of hell, or of a god.

The website: http://www.secularhumanism.org/

To listen to that podcast using iTunes, look up "Point of Inquiry" and get the episode dated 7/7/06.  It's free, and you'll enjoy it.

Best, Impish
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2006, 12:24:50 pm »
Let me ask you:  did you ever get the chance to read the "Covering" book?

Not yet. I kept waiting for the copy at my library to become available, but who ever has it checked out has kept it for months now. Either that or there's a long long line of people on the waiting list ahead of me. I decided to simply order it, and finally got around to it. It's in the mail and on it's way.

I do appreciate your book recommendations. I probably don't read as much as you do, time being a luxury I don't often have, but I do enjoy reading. I will check out Harris's book eventually. I like what his writing, from you've posted. I think I'll also recommend the book to my brother. I think he'll find Harris's insight interesting.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 12:28:24 pm by starboardlight »
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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2006, 11:22:53 pm »
Not to steal TexRob's thunder, but I've been called an existentialist, too.  The Wikipedia definition leaves me kind of cold.  The way I see it, being an existentialist is being someone trying to find meaning in a godless world.  The existential dilemma is trying to decide what is right and what is wrong in a world where no one will ultimately judge us for our actions - i.e., since there is no God, if I can get away with it, what's to stop me from lying, stealing, killing?  I don't think it's an accurate moniker for me now, because I have found meaning and I do know what's to stop me - my own conscience.  The existentialist believes he or she exists separately from all other individuals (and from God) and doesn't need anyone else for anything.

Hmmm. See, that doesn't really describe me at all. I don't think one needs to believe in a deity to have a strong sense of right and wrong. (I'm probably a secular humanist, too. Well, mostly. I steal ideas from lots of non-theistic philosophies... and I'm not above stealing from people who believe in deities, too. I like the Wiccan saying "And ye hurt none" as a guide for right and wrong, for instance. I think a lot of religions have good ideas about how to get along with other people, if you skip past the parts where they tell you to kill everyone who doesn't agree with you.)

Back to existentialism: this friend used the description after reading a story that I had written for a creative writing class in high school. The main character, in the end, wasn't able to get out of the pattern her life fell into, even though the pattern was clearly messed up. (I recently told another friend about the story, and she laughed and said: "Ennis.") So I'm wondering if the connection has to do with being trapped by inaction, or something. That doesn't seem to have much to do with whether or not someone believes in a deity, though.
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Offline isabelle

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #97 on: July 13, 2006, 03:40:20 am »
If I may jump in...

"Existentialism is a form of Humanism" by Sartre was the first philosophy book I was made to read in high school (we do philosophy as a set subject in France).
I do not remember all of it, but basically, it said that man alone is responsible for the way he leads his life: he has nothing to expect from God as none exists, nothing to expect from an after life as there is none. He must take responsibility for his actions. This means that determinism, whereby you are supposed to become a delinquant because you come from a rough area or family and things like that, is not acceptable either: you CAN break free from vicious circles.
And what stops you doing evil is ethics, for which you don't need Gods. The idea too that you should behave the way you wish everybody would behave. I think this is a good guideline.
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Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #98 on: July 13, 2006, 09:36:17 am »
Thanks Isabelle!

That was my basic understanding of it, but you said it much more clearly.

I remain confused about TexRob's message tho'...  I wonder what  he meant when he said (paraphrasing) "not all existentialists are atheists" ?
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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #99 on: July 13, 2006, 11:20:24 am »
Atheist here!

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2006, 11:36:20 am »
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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #101 on: July 13, 2006, 02:20:58 pm »

I remain confused about TexRob's message tho'...  I wonder what  he meant when he said (paraphrasing) "not all existentialists are atheists" ?

Yeah, confusing! According to Sartre, an existentialist can only be an atheist. Was he thinking of Buddhists? Because I've taken an interest in Buddhism, and I said to a friend lately that they were real existentialists, so it seems to me!
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #102 on: July 13, 2006, 03:47:39 pm »
Well, I sure had it wrong.  I think I missed the target AND the tree...

In that case, I *am* an existentialist (as well as a bonehead).  Determinism doesn't apply to me - if it did I'd most likely be locked up somewhere by now.  I see myself as wholly responsible for my own actions.  I not only don't believe in God; I don't believe in fate.  I believe we all make our own destinies.  In a less eloquent way, life may throw some shit our way, but we can either let it hit us head on - even try to (as I think professional victims do) or we can dodge it/go around it/get beyond it - it's up to us.

Thanks, Isabelle and Impish.  And I'll check out that web site.  :)
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Offline TexRob

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« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2006, 05:49:12 pm »
I'm fascinated.  Could you give a brief summary of the beliefs of religious existentialists?  Are these people who believe in a god but don't believe in an afterlife? 

Religious existentialists look at religion more as a leap of faith than something based on observed evidence of a god.   For us secularists, an "existential crisis" can call upon us to make decisions about our lives which we cannot escape and for which we are solely accountable.  Similarly, a religious existentialist doesn't "experience" God so much as he "encounters" God, and that encounter comes in the form of a question which the believer must answer for himself -- thus, the religious version of an existential crisis.

Both versions of existentialism uphold man as an agent acting with total freedom combined with total responsibility for his free choices.  Kirkegaard laid out this stance for believers, and Sartre laid it out for those of us who don't believe.  Both versions start with reality itself as  the basis of all further development (as opposed to a "consiousness" of some sort).   Hence, both kinds of existentialism subscribe to the statement: Existence precedes Essence.
   

Offline TexRob

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« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2006, 06:16:12 pm »
Would you be willing to explain this a bit more (maybe in a new thread in the Open Forum rather than here)? A college friend once called me an existentialist, and I've never fully understood what he meant (even after reading a little Sartre... well, ok, so I didn't read French well enough to really understand Sartre, either). I'm wondering if whatever-that-connection-is might help me understand why BBM knocked me for a loop like this.

Hi Nakymaton --

Even in English, Sartre is extremely difficult to read because he is so technical.  Existentialism, in turn, is an expression which is hard to pin down in everyday usage.  The definition of existentialism I'm using is the point of view that man finds himself alone in an indifferent or even hostile universe.

Existentialism is not a full blown philosophy so much as it is a way of looking at the world around you.  It's basic root is that existence precedes essence, meaning we're the product of a natural world, not a spirit world lying beyond it.  From there, existentialism elaborates several "themes."  One of them is the role of alienation in our lives.  Another is our absolute freedom to choose, and our right to refuse labels: to put it in Sartre's words, an consciousness that "isn't what it is and is what it isn't."   Another theme is our existence in a world of other people, who put a limit on our own realities by their mere presence to us.

There are other existential "themes" as well, and in Brokeback Mountain, every single theme is expressed in one scene or the other.  Take the very first one, where Ennis and Jack are sneaking looks at one another.  To put this in Sartre's words, this scene represents the radical appearance of the Other (Jack) in a person's life, and Sartre's discussion of "The Look" is borne out as Ennis steals a glance at Jack, and Jack steals one back through the mirror.  The Look represents the disturbing draining off of our reality toward the Other, and this is exactly what was happening in that scene.  The "radical" appearance of the Other in our lives is a specific existential theme.

That's just the first scene of the movie.  Each scene that follows picks up on another existential theme, then another, to very end, where in Ennis's tears we see the existential definition itself:  Man is alone ... in and indifferent or even hostile universe.

How to get past this aloneness or alienation, and whether that's possible or even desireable, is a major question for existential thought.



Offline TexRob

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« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2006, 06:55:55 pm »
Not to steal TexRob's thunder, but I've been called an existentialist, too.  The Wikipedia definition leaves me kind of cold.  The way I see it, being an existentialist is being someone trying to find meaning in a godless world.  The existential dilemma is trying to decide what is right and what is wrong in a world where no one will ultimately judge us for our actions - i.e., since there is no God, if I can get away with it, what's to stop me from lying, stealing, killing?  I don't think it's an accurate moniker for me now, because I have found meaning and I do know what's to stop me - my own conscience.  The existentialist believes he or she exists separately from all other individuals (and from God) and doesn't need anyone else for anything.  I'm too much of a social animal for that.  I'm a humanist, I think.  I think we're all connected through our very humanity - through the fact that we all need sleep and water and food, that we all laugh and weep, that we all die.  So I'm still a little miffed that this person thinks that of me.  Either she doesn't really understand the word or she doesn't really understand me.  Just being an atheist alone doesn't make one existential, like she thought.  One can find a great deal of meaning in life and in nature without the existence of a god or gods.

Hi ednbarby --

Yes, for existentialist thought -- and most atheist or human thought for that matter -- "meaning" in life is a project that we freely choose for ourselves.  The project doesn't have to make any sense or relate to anyone other than ourselves, but our absolute freedom  as conscious entities means freedom from having our meaning in life chosen by someone else, like a society or our parents' religion.

Existentialism proposes no particular right or wrong for our moral existence.  It only states that, whatever our moral choices, we alone bear total responsiblilty for them, for absolute freedom is inseparable from absolute responsibility for our choices. The closest existentialism comes to a moral wrong is "mauvaise foi," which is the refusal to recognize what you know to be the case. The best English translation of mauvaise foi  is "self deception."  Put another way, existentialists don't believe in an unconscious mind because they don't think any evidence shows that a conscious mind can surpress part of its awareness into another realm without on some level remaining aware of what it is that it's surpressing.  So to deceive yourself -- about another person's intentions, for example -- is almost to commit a crime against your very essence -- your consciousness. 

Your own consciousness is not enough to stop you from committing an absurd act.  You can steal or kill if you wish.  That's another existential theme, the theme of anxiety.  Anxiety arises in our awareness of our capability, due to our freedom, of doing just about anything, regardless of the consequences.  We aren't anxious driving because we could get run off the road; we get anxious because we know we can drive ourselves off the road of our own free will.

Sartre stated that existentialism is a form of humanism.  But humanism, as we understand it now, means making choices for the good of human beings, and existentialism doesn't require that.  To me, what humanism does is to supplement existentialism by proposing a morality that makes sense in a world without intrinsic meaning. So I see humanism a value system which is different from existentialism.  Since I think of myself as a "naturalistic humanist,"  I try to combine existential themes with a freely chosen, human-centered morality.

No, an atheist doesn't have to be an existentialist.  The Objectivists, who follow Ayn Rand, specifically reject existentialism.  About your comments about the social animal, a lot of atheist philosophers asked how individualistic or free we really can be in a social setting, especially since were are trained as social animals in childhood, long before we start questioning where we got those beliefs from and long after we can do much about them, perhaps.  I think personality has a lot to do with people's varying social orientation, so it's not an either/or question.  But again, does your personality come from within -- or is it conditioned by the society you live in?

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 01:05:06 pm by TexRob »

Offline TexRob

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« Reply #107 on: July 16, 2006, 07:11:41 pm »
Back to existentialism: this friend used the description after reading a story that I had written for a creative writing class in high school. The main character, in the end, wasn't able to get out of the pattern her life fell into, even though the pattern was clearly messed up. (I recently told another friend about the story, and she laughed and said: "Ennis.") So I'm wondering if the connection has to do with being trapped by inaction, or something. That doesn't seem to have much to do with whether or not someone believes in a deity, though.

Hi Again Nakymaton --

There is an existential concept known as the situation limit.  The character in your story may have been bound by that, just as we humans are bound to Earth for the time being.  Still, within that limit, the individual is free and responsible for his choices.  Ennis's situation limit was his poverty and his place.  Within that limit, however, he was free.  The movie, in fact, shows us how Ennis refused labels; in fact, so did Jack, Alma and Lureen. Although trapped by their own situation limits, out of their own free will they refused the roles you might have anticipated for them (why didn't Lureen divorce Jack, for example -- the obvious thing for her to do?).  Still, "existentialism" gets thrown about rather loosely, and my guess is that your main character may have been in an absurdly Kafkaesque situation more so than a typical existential situation.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 01:07:34 pm by TexRob »

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #108 on: July 16, 2006, 07:51:35 pm »
Tex Rob,

I'm not sure I follow everything you say, but at the moment just want to clear up one point in particular.

When you say that some existentialists are religious, are you using the term "religious" to mean simply "have a spiritual side to their life"?   

Or does "religious" mean that there are existentialists that believe in a god of some kind?  This is what I understood you to say, and I want to confirm that what I understood is a misunderstanding.  :)

You said
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Religious existentialists look at religion more as a leap of faith than something based on observed evidence of a god. 

but I would suggest that that's how all believer's in gods see it, that's what 'faith' means to atheists and the religious alike:  believing despite the lack of evidence (the disagreement is  about whether that's a good thing or not).

In another post, you give a definition of existentialism that I agree  with:

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The definition of existentialism I'm using is the point of view that man finds himself alone in an indifferent or even hostile universe.

Surely, someone who believes that "man finds himself alone" doesn't also believe in gods, but if so, how can you say that not all existentialists are also atheists?

You see my confusion here, and I'd like to re-read your posts above once I get this cleared up in my mind.

Thanks!
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Offline TexRob

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« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2006, 12:41:37 pm »
Hi Impish --

Even today, fundamentalists attempt to use facts of reality to demonstrate the existence of God, so not all not all religious people base their belief purely on "spiritual" phenomena or faith alone.  Religious existentialists can believe in a god, not just a spiritual side to nature.  This is shown by the fact that one of the great Catholic writers,  Jaspers, was an existentialist in his outlook.

One thing all existentialists have in common is the axiom that "existence precedes essence."  This can only mean that God or the spiritual (whichever way they look at it) arises on the platform of a pre-existing reality.  Most religious thinkers believe the opposite -- that essence precedes existence, and that a Mind of some sort gave rise to reality.  So as far as I interpret it, religious existentialists are a lot like the pantheists who equate God with the universe we inhabit.  Regardless of whether they are spiritual or god-believing, they accept that a pre-existing reality of some sort gave rise to this transcendental realm.

The answer to the question of why they have faith is that they choose it as an existential right. One of the major themes of existentialism is the utter uniqueness of every individual human being, who can refuse to wear a label and can change his life's project at any time as an act of free will.  If we atheists conclude there is nothing beyond the natural world, there can be nothing to stop them from choosing to extend that outlook to the supernatural.  The choice itself is sort of a leap of faith as far as I can tell, but it's the right to that leap that religious existentialists demand. Such an existentialist, then, has refused the label "atheist" as a manifestation of his unalienable personal freedom. 

Because there is no meaningful definition of God or "spiritual,"  there is no problem for them in believing in both the definition of existentialism I was using and the existence of God.  There is no evidence, that is to say, that God is in any way concerned with the welfare of human beings.  This is a concept that predates Kirkegaard, going back to the Rationalists of the Enlightenment -- a passive deity unconcerned with human suffering. 

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 12:52:52 pm by TexRob »

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #110 on: July 23, 2006, 06:16:06 am »
I've added some goods I'm rather proud of to my anti-theist collection, with this image. They're at http://www.cafepress.com/wero/1649800
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 07:00:14 pm by Shuggy »

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #111 on: July 23, 2006, 06:28:57 am »
Shuggy, that's marvellous and just about nails it!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Let's mail it out to every fundamentalist in the world!

Actually, I was a VERY devout little catholic up until ages 16 or 17 (served as an acolyte in the convent down my parent's street for many years), and believed in just about everything spooky and paranormal for a few years after that. Then, one day, a professor at my college organized a debate between skeptics and several mediums and faith healers, where the scientists all but wiped the floor with the paranormal people, and I was instantly cured. I have become increasingly convinced that organized religion is one of the most consistent sources of hatred, intolerance and war throughout human history, and that peace will probably be impossible as long as it exists. Well, just take a glance at the Middle East today...

And now that Mr. Bush, against the will of a democratic majority, has vetoed federal funding for stem cell research, theocratic dictatorship shows its undisguised face in the US, too. VERY worrying.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 06:41:18 am by stevenedel »
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Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #112 on: July 23, 2006, 09:54:10 am »
Stevenedel:

I'm with you 100%!  I was raised Episcopalian and was a choir boy for many years, and so I also "woke up" from a religious background.

If you enjoy listening to  podcasts, there's a wonderful one called "Point of Inquiry" that how science views both religion and the paranormal.  You can find it at the iTunes Music Store.  Highly recommended.   ;D

Impish
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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #113 on: July 23, 2006, 09:54:58 am »
I've added some goods I'm rather proud of to my anti-theist collection, with this image. They're at http://www.cafepress.com/wero/1649800


That's a great shirt Shuggy!  Although I must say it's tempting to worship Priapus!   ::)
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #114 on: July 23, 2006, 11:51:22 am »
That's a great shirt Shuggy!  Although I must say it's tempting to worship Priapus!   ::)

Guys!   ::)

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Even today, fundamentalists attempt to use facts of reality to demonstrate the existence of God, so not all not all religious people base their belief purely on "spiritual" phenomena or faith alone.

Texrob is correct.  The main drive behind Christianity - why believers think it is better than any other religion - is that they believe it is a factual religion.  That Jesus was actually the son of god, that he came to earth as a real man, is a historical figure, etc., etc., so that makes Christianity a 'real' religion as opposed to - as a Born Again friend one time told me - all those 'made up' religions.

However, sadly for them, if they do do an objective study of the Christian religion, they will find it no more based in 'fact' than any other religion.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 11:56:16 am by delalluvia »

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #115 on: July 23, 2006, 07:03:40 pm »
Shuggy, that's marvellous and just about nails it!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Thank you.

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By all means, if you can work out how to make them pay for it. This kind of thing is still my only livelihood, I'm afraid (you'll see I've now munged it to prevent ripoffs), but I live in hope.


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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #116 on: July 24, 2006, 12:07:57 am »
Stevenedel:

I'm with you 100%!  I was raised Episcopalian and was a choir boy for many years, and so I also "woke up" from a religious background.

If you enjoy listening to  podcasts, there's a wonderful one called "Point of Inquiry" that how science views both religion and the paranormal.  You can find it at the iTunes Music Store.  Highly recommended.   ;D

Impish

thanks for the recommendation. I listened to the specific episode with Paul Kurtz. He gave me lots to think about. I've gone a head and subscribed so I'll see if other guests are just as good.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #117 on: July 24, 2006, 04:56:28 am »

Texrob is correct.  The main drive behind Christianity - why believers think it is better than any other religion - is that they believe it is a factual religion.  That Jesus was actually the son of god, that he came to earth as a real man, is a historical figure, etc., etc., so that makes Christianity a 'real' religion as opposed to - as a Born Again friend one time told me - all those 'made up' religions.

However, sadly for them, if they do do an objective study of the Christian religion, they will find it no more based in 'fact' than any other religion.

This reminds me of the way some people classify low-prestige languages (a specialty of mine). Even supposed experts like Martin Gardiner or Bill Bryson say that Sign Languages (Gardiner) or Pijin are (Bryson) "just made up" and not as good as "real" languages. Maybe an echo of "God speaks Hebrew" or "God speaks English"?

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #118 on: July 24, 2006, 06:11:04 pm »
I'm a committed atheist; I stopped believing in gods at age 13.  As concerned as I am about the assault on gay rights, I've come to the conclusion that the ever-thinning wall of separation of church and state is the single most important issue facing the U.S. today.  Fixing that would fix so many other issues at the same time.

So I've been investigating books and podcasts on the subject of atheism, the role of science in public policy, etc.,  and was struck by the following.

Again and again, I find this point being made:  that atheists need to take a lesson from the gay community and come out of the closet.  "Look what good it did to the cause of gay rights after more and more people came out," they say, stressing the importance of visibility. 

I'm reminded of a lesbian friend from Canada who lived in my home town for two years.  As she was returning to Nova Scotia at the end of her stay, I asked her about her impressions of the U.S. and Americans after living here.  She didn't need to think about it:  to paraphrase, she said "you have freedom of religion here, but you don't have freedom from religion.  I learned very quickly not to mention that I don't believe in gods, because Americans just freak out."

So I've decided I'm going to come out as an atheist, and have bought some T-shirts so that people will know my stance when I wear them.

The T's say

"Friendly Atheist" (my favorite, as it's the least "in your face")
"Lord, Protect Me From Your Followers"
"I Think, Therefore I'm Atheist."

Anyway, if you don't believe in gods either -- or if you consider yourself agnostic -- I encourage you to come out of the closet, letting those around you know your beliefs.  It's important to increase  our visibility, and to let others know that there is moral behavior without it being caused by fear of a god.

Cheers!   ;D

I was raised atheist. My parents are atheist and I'm probably the only hispanic person who hasn't been baptized, and who has no idea about the bible and such. Along with my three siblings of course. It was hard to grow up atheist in a profoundly catholic culture, though. We were shunned sometimes. And my grandma really thought we were going to hell, and spent half her life trying to make us believe in God but failed terribly.
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Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #119 on: July 24, 2006, 07:12:46 pm »
I was raised atheist.

I hope you know how lucky you are!  Being raised from childhood to believe certain myths and superstitions is the most successful form of indoctrination/brainwashing.  I'm envious that you never had any of that to overcome like so many of us did.

I just watched the BBC TV special by Richard Dawkins, called "The Root of All Evil?"  It shows how religious belief can lead to evil in a compelling way.   It's available at google video... well, at least Part #1 is.  I'm still looking for Part 2, which specifically looks at the issue in terms of child-rearing.

Kudos to your parents!   :)
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #120 on: July 24, 2006, 07:31:32 pm »
Maybe an echo of "God speaks Hebrew" or "God speaks English"?

Islam has the strangle-hold on that idea.  You have to be able to speak/read Arabic in order to read and understand God's wishes in the Qu'ran 'properly'.  No other way is acceptable. 

God only communicates in Arabic you see.   ::)

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #121 on: July 24, 2006, 07:35:33 pm »
I was raised atheist. My parents are atheist and I'm probably the only hispanic person who hasn't been baptized, and who has no idea about the bible and such. Along with my three siblings of course. It was hard to grow up atheist in a profoundly catholic culture, though. We were shunned sometimes. And my grandma really thought we were going to hell, and spent half her life trying to make us believe in God but failed terribly.

I have been baptized but that was because of my grandmother. She is a hardline catholic (looks like the baptism didn't do much for me lol... I'm chasing a hot boyfriend). My parents are agnostic (my mom is more of an atheist then my dad, but he is still an agnostic). So you're not alone... my mom put on the catholic thing to please her mother (mostly out of respect). In my culture family is very strong. Much stronger then it is in the US. You probably are simliar to me. :)

Offline Impish

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Harris on "The Language of God"
« Reply #122 on: August 16, 2006, 10:13:42 am »
Sam Harris wrote an essay responding to the recent book "The Language of God," written by a well-respected scientist who has abandoned all ability to reason.

It's a two-page essay, and well worth reading:

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060815_sam_harris_language_ignorance/

Cheers!
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #123 on: August 16, 2006, 03:47:40 pm »
Oh, MAN.  Harris was right - I for one am deeply disturbed.  Well, in the general sense, of course, but specifically that Collins' book is not a hoax.

This quote from Harris stood out:

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If the beauty of nature can mean that Jesus really is the son of God, then anything can mean anything.

I have *got* to get my hands on The End of Faith.

No more beans!

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #124 on: August 16, 2006, 05:54:20 pm »
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If the beauty of nature can mean that Jesus really is the son of God, then anything can mean anything.

This is literally true and can be proved mathematically. It follows from the fact that a false proposition implies any proposition.
If one number equals a different number, then suitable adding and multiplying can show any number to equal any other number.
(eg if 3=4 then 3x3=3x4=4x4, ie 9=12=16)

"You mean, if you accepted that 2=1 you could prove that you are the Pope?" someone asked Bertrand Russell.

"Yes," Russell (in essence) replied. "The Pope and I are two but if 2=1 then the Pope and I are one, therefore I am the Pope."

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #125 on: August 16, 2006, 11:16:35 pm »
Thanks for the link to that article, Impish. Harris is really a fantastic writer... and I am horrified by the book he's reviewing.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #126 on: August 17, 2006, 04:17:29 am »
Well, at least that book, scary as it seems, made me decide to come out here at last.  :)


I'm an atheist too, very firmly so - and a card-carrying humanist.  I do take humanism and respect for human rights very seriously.

I left the church as soon as I came of age, - remember trying to explain the big bang theory to my (horrified) classmates while still in children's school.  ;D I'd found that in a book and even then it - and the theory of evolution - made more sense to me than what we were being taught in (the very religious) school we were attending.

Didn't see the need to join any organization to prove my personal viewpoints, but eventually joined the humanist organization in my country a few years back because I wanted to contribute to their strength in numbers. A substantial membership base is needed if there is to be any chance of the humanist voice being heard and not disregarded in debates on religion in schools, a possible division between state and church, etc. I live in one of the most secular countries on the planet, where religion according to polls plays next to no role in the life of about 50% of the population (though many of those do in fact passively remain on the Church's membership lists). But we've had a small Conservative Christian backlash here recently too - inspired by the US, unfortunately, but not anyway near that kind of magnitude or impact. And anyway the sheer popular complacency about the status quo makes it difficult to change things in a direction that is equally respectful of everyone's outlooks on life, or that distinguishes better between private worship and public equal respect for all. (By and large, Lutheran Christianity is still the official way to go.)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 05:57:20 am by Mikaela »

Offline Impish

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #127 on: August 17, 2006, 11:03:36 am »
Well, at least that book, scary as it seems, made me decide to come out here at last.  :)

Welcome, Mikaela!

I'm curious about the country you live in.  Can you share?

In his book (The End of Faith), Harris mentions that countries with higher rates of atheists also have lower crime rates, better health care for all, lower numbers of the homeless, etc.

He uses it to counter those who argue that scoiety cannot be moral without religion.

As a humanist, you're probably already aware of this website, but here's a link, just to make sure:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/

Also, a website that lists other sites related to atheism and humanism.

http://www.webofreason.org/

Again, welcome to Atheist Pride!   ;D
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #128 on: August 17, 2006, 12:54:47 pm »
Something that's occurred to me in reading here and the article just posted:  We are basically raising our son atheist.  When people who take part in organized religion ask us what church we belong to, where Will was baptised, etc., we always politely say something like "We don't belong to any church right now."  If they press us on whether we're planning to raise our child with no religion (and you'd perhaps be surprised at how many people have done that), we say "We're going to expose him to all the options out there and let him make his own choice when he's old enough and ready to do so."

Here's the thing.  How come none of us ever asks these yahoos why it is that they're raising their children to believe in mythology?  Oh - that's right - because we don't assume that choosing to go one way or the other with organized religion determines whether you're moral or not.

I'll tell you what - I pity the poor fool Jehovah's Witnesses who dare to ring my doorbell next.  I plan to invite them in, sit them down, and give them some iced tea and an earful about why it is that they're not living completely fulfilling lives by choosing to believe that God exists.

 ;D

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #129 on: August 17, 2006, 01:30:24 pm »
I am Catholic, my husband is Catholic so of course my children are Catholic.  We both have very strong beliefs but I also give my children the option to explore different things and other religions.  We live in a small community in the Bible belt.  Most people here are Southern Baptist.  When we first moved to town, the fine Christian folk in this community came to see us while the big moving truck was out front.  The first thing out of everyone of their mouths was "Where do you go to Church?."  When we told them St. Francis they all with their mouths hanging open would say "Oh."  I told my husband it was like we just told them we were drug dealers or worshiped Satan.  Now none of those sweet neighbors talk to us.  We are the forgotten one.  I think it is funny that as soon as you believe differently than someone else you are wrong.  I have never and would never say what any person believes is wrong.  That is the right of every person to believe in what they want.  I have a lot of friends that are agnostic.  We are very good friends and they will every now and then let their children go to church with ours.  Our "Baptist" friends on the other will NOT let their kids go to church with ours.  So funny.

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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #130 on: August 17, 2006, 04:48:56 pm »
Not to compartmentalize people, but I've found that our Catholic and Jewish friends have never once asked us whether we baptised Will/want to take him to church or to Temple/are raising him to believe in God.  Not ever.  The people who have asked us are Christians and go to some denominational church or other.  Which is not to say that *all* people in that latter category are like that.  But just that the ones who have asked us have been in that latter category.

I guess I should answer them this way:  Well, you believe in God and that Christ is his son and the Holy Bible, right?  So you generally teach your kids to do the same things, right?  Well, we don't believe in God and we don't go to church, so generally we're going to teach our son the same things.  But if he came to us and said, "You know what - I believe in God and I want to go to church," not only would we say, "Good for you."  We'd drive him there and attend with him until he was old enough to attend on his own.  I would hope if your son came to you and said, "You know what - I don't believe in God and I don't want to go to church," you'd be every bit as supportive.  Right?

Yeah.  Right.
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Offline Impish

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Think I'm paranoid?
« Reply #131 on: August 19, 2006, 10:34:17 am »
If anyone thinks I'm being alarmist and paranoid about the state of affairs in the U.S. today, take a look at this article about christian fundamentalists who a) believe that American should not be a democracy; and b) advocate the stoning of gay people:

http://www.alternet.org/story/40318

The scariest thing of all is that these people are not on the fringes of society;  they actually have influence in Washington.
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Re: Think I'm paranoid?
« Reply #132 on: August 19, 2006, 01:14:22 pm »
If anyone thinks I'm being alarmist and paranoid about the state of affairs in the U.S. today, take a look at this article about christian fundamentalists who a) believe that American should not be a democracy; and b) advocate the stoning of gay people:

http://www.alternet.org/story/40318

The scariest thing of all is that these people are not on the fringes of society;  they actually have influence in Washington.

Well I certainly don't think your paranoid Bill.  Fanatics for any cause or religion are dangerous and deluded folks and heaven or providence help us all if they combine their religious fanaticism with some social or political obsession.

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Re: An Atheist Manifesto
« Reply #133 on: August 21, 2006, 03:39:43 pm »
By Sam Harris

Editor’s Note: At a time when fundamentalist religion has an unparalleled influence in the highest government levels in the United States, and religion-based terror dominates the world stage, Sam Harris argues that progressive tolerance of faith-based unreason is as great a menace as religion itself. 

Assuming you agree with Mr. Harris, what form do you think intolerance of 'faith-based unreason' should take? Do you think that people who believe in a deity should be able to vote? Hold public office? If not, how would you change the First Amendment, assuming you're in the US?

An Atheist Manifesto

Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind is not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of 6 billion human beings. The same statistics also suggest that this girl s parents believe at this very moment that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?

This is one of the questions that what is sometimes called "Holocaust theology" wrestles with: if one was saved from Auschwitz by divine intervention, what about people who were not saved from it? Some people in Holocaust theology thinking go the atheist route; others do not.

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The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious.


Unfortunately, we live in a world in which even people with beliefs well across the borders of Goofyland consider them "self-evident" or "obvious."

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The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (87% of the population) who claim to never doubt the existence of God should be obliged to present evidence for his existence and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day.

"Obliged" how?  What sort of penalties are you advocating?

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We live in a world where all things, good and bad, are finally destroyed by change. Parents lose their children and children their parents. Husbands and wives are separated in an instant, never to meet again. Friends part company in haste, without knowing that it will be for the last time. This life, when surveyed with a broad glance, presents little more than a vast spectacle of loss. Most people in this world, however, imagine that there is a cure for this.

According to panentheist beliefs (not to be confused with "pantheism", the notion that there should be a "cure" or divine rescue mission for a universe that has imperfection built into it is nonsensical. The universe is functioning exactly as it is supposed to; static perfection isn't part of its reality.

Offline Impish

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Impeachment of Christianity: Article 1
« Reply #134 on: August 21, 2006, 06:55:09 pm »
There are five articles (and a long preamble ) in this document.  As I was impressed with it -- especially when I learned the year of publication --  I plan on transcribing an article a day.  All capitalization, boldface and spelling is directly from the document itself.  Best, Impish

"1. I IMPEACH CHRISTIANITY IN THE NAME OF HUMAN INTELLIGENCE.

Because it is the great organized Superstition of the Western world, perpetuating in modern times the false beliefs, the degrading fears, and the benumbing influences of the Dark Ages -- in proportion to it power over men paralyzing their intellectual faculties, keeping them in the bondage of childish fancies, and governing them by means of an utterly irrational religious terrorism.

Because it is the great enemy of science, retarding the spread of natural knowledge, opposing new truths and discoveries as irreligious, perpetuating popular ignorance on all but permitted subjects in order that is own empire may be unshaken, and making blind faith in impossible doctrines the highest virtue of the human soul and the only protection against terrible yet purely imaginary dangers.

Because it is the greatest stumbling block in the pathway of civilization, inasmuch as it withdraws attention from the natural affairs of this life, concentrates all its earnest thought on a future life that is to be eternal bliss or eternal misery, makes a merit of neglect of this world's riches in order 'to lay up treasures in heaven', frowns on active enterprise as a dangerous devotion to 'carnal things', and thus unfits men for the attention to all those objects of honourable ambition on which the progress of civilization so largely depends."

From: "Impeachment of Christianity," Francis E. Abbott, as published in The Index magazine, January 6, 1872
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Offline Impish

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Impeachment of Christianity: Article 2
« Reply #135 on: August 22, 2006, 07:10:02 pm »
2. I IMPEACH CHRISTIANITY IN THE NAME OF HUMAN VIRTUE

"Because it appeals to hope and fear as the supreme motives of human conduct, holds out promises of an eternal heaven as the reward of obedience to its commands, utters threats of an eternal hell as the punishment of disobedience to them, makes its appeal to human selfishness as the proper spring of human action, and consequently undermines and destroys the disinterestedness of all high morality, which commands the right because it is right and forbids the wrong because it is wrong, regardless alike of punishment and of reward.

Because it teaches that the virtue of the 'Savior' can be substituted for the virtue of the 'saved' -- that the 'sinner' can be made pure by the righteousness of another, -- that merit and demerit do not belong to the individual, but can be transferred like a garment from back to back.  Its great doctrines of "Depravity' and the 'Atonement' are a blank denial of the very possibility of personal virtue.

"Because it teaches that the natural penalties of wrong doing can be escaped by 'faith in Christ',-- that the consequences of moral evil are neither necessary nor universal,-- that the law of case and effect does not hold in the moral world and thus weakens the natural auxiliaries of imperfect virtue by fostering the delusion that men can do evil without suffering for it.

Because it enjoins self-abhorrence as the first condition of the 'salvation' it offers,-- makes the denial of all 'worth and worthiness' in mankind the first step in the Christian life, and teaches the Christ will save those alone who have lost all faith in themselves and in their own power to escape the just wrath of God.  It thus strikes a deadly blow at the dignity of human nature, extinguishes that noble sentiment of self-respect without which all high virtue is impossible, and smites men with the leprosy of self-contempt.  It makes them crawl like reptiles before Christ -- 'their hands on their mouths, and their mouths in the dust'.  It is the very abolition of true manliness among men.

Because, by this extinction of self-respect, it enfeebles the consciousness of human rights, and thus blights the very idea of natural justice, which is the practical recognition of these rights.  No man who despises himself can respect his fellows or reverence the rights inherent in their very humanity.  Whatever extinguishes human rights before God will extinguish human rights among men.  For this reason Christianity has always been blind to justice.

Because, finally, it recognizes no higher law for man than the 'revealed will of God'.  It thus bases all morality on will alone, and says nothing of that necessary Nature of Things which determines all moral relations.  It thus confuses men's ideas of right and wrong, and renders impossible that knowledge of true ethical principles which is essential to all enlightened virtue."

From: "Impeachment of Christianity," Francis E. Abbott, as published in The Index magazine, January 6, 1872
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Offline Impish

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Impeachment of Christianity: Article 3
« Reply #136 on: August 23, 2006, 07:12:32 pm »
3. I IMPEACH CHRISTIANITY IN THE NAME OF THE HUMAN HEART

"Because it recognizes no sanctity in natural human affections, but requires that all these shall be subordinated to an unnatural love of Christ as the Savior of souls. 'He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me.'  'If any man hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life, he cannot be my disciple.'

Because it extends over myriads of sensitive minds the blackness and gloom of a horrible theology, tortures them with a morbid self-reproach for unreal transgressions, and fills them with excruciating doubts of their final escape from hell, -- thus destroying their happiness, and robbing their life of its natural beauty and charm.

Because it commands supreme love to a God whose character is utterly unlovely -- a God whose wrath against his own children is a 'consuming fire',  and who plunges the vast majority of them into eternal agony.  It thus degrades the very idea of fatherhood, by teaching the 'Fatherhood' of a God whose character and acts are as unfatherly as they are incredible.

Because it proclaims a 'Brotherhood of Man' which denies the natural equality essential to all genuine brotherhood -- which perverts the natural sentiment of good-will towards all men into an artificial and exclusive bond among Christians themselves, and into a thoroughly unnatural condescension or pity towards all others -- which is in fact consistent with the harshest injustice and the most frightful cruelty towards those who reject the Christian creed.  It thus degrades and lowers the very idea of brotherhood, by calling that the 'Brotherhood of Man' which is simply a fellowship of Christian believers, and which has been too often in history a fellowship of thieves and murderers."

From: "Impeachment of Christianity," Francis E. Abbott, as published in The Index magazine, January 6, 1872
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 05:49:34 pm by Impish »
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Offline Impish

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Impeachment of Christianity: Article 4
« Reply #137 on: August 24, 2006, 05:48:26 pm »
4. I IMPEACH CHRISTIANITY IN THE NAME OF HUMAN FREEDOM

"Because it sets up a despotic authority which, whether as Church, as Bible, or as Christ, makes man a slave in his very soul -- an authority which shuts up the human intellect within arbitrarily prescribed bounds, hands over the human conscience to the custody of clerical keepers, and rules all human life, individual or social, with an iron rod.

Because it has always allied itself with despotism in civil government, joined with the oppressor in keeping the oppressed under foot, and sought to maintain its own supremacy on the ruins of all human liberty.

Because, as Catholicism, it has been an unmitigated spiritual and temporal tyranny, from which many centuries of constant struggle have today only partially emancipated the world.

Because, as Protestantism, it has been as unmitigated spiritual tyranny, and is even now plotting in this free republic to reestablish itself as a temporal tyranny also.

Because it is the true heir of the ancient Roman Imperialism, seeking now as ever to establish and maintain an absolute empire over the whole world, and to bind the entire human race not only in political, but also in religious bondage.  Wherever Christianity lives, Freedom dies.  They cannot both long breathe the same atmosphere.

From: "Impeachment of Christianity," Francis E. Abbott, as published in The Index magazine, January 6, 1872
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Offline Impish

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Impeachment of Christianity: Article 5
« Reply #138 on: August 25, 2006, 07:02:25 pm »
5. I IMPEACH CHRISTIANITY IN THE NAME OF HUMANITARIAN RELIGION

"Because it stands stubbornly in the path of all human progress, blocking the way of every movement which aims at the enlargement of human life, --opposes, and has always opposed, every genuine reform in human affairs, -- consults only the interests of its own creeds, and sets its face like a flint against the purely secular education in which, by a quick instinct, it recognizes the most dangerous enemy of this creed. 

Because it teaches the impossibility of Humanity's advance through it own natural exertions, and insists that it should rely on supernatural assistance alone -- thus extinguishing aspiration and drying up the fountain-head of all progress.

Because it teaches despair of human nature, as ruined, lost and depraved -- incurable of all salvation but that which comes from without, and subject to no law of natural development but that of degeneration, carrying it from bad to worse and from worse to worst.  It thus denies the great hopeful doctrine of humanitarian religion, that Humanity tends by its own free efforts to grow better as it grows older, and to emerge from a lower into a higher state in accordance with natural laws.

Because it proclaims ideas of God which would drive every reflective mind acquainted with modern knowledge into absolute Atheism, were it not that modern knowledge itself furnished the elements of a far higher idea of God in universal Nature.  It thus appears as the most insidious enemy of the religious sentiment -- the destroyer of that pure and ennobling worship which recognizes that Divine throughout all Time and Space, and creates in the soul of man a consciousness of profound spiritual oneness with the vast Whole of which he is a part.

From: "Impeachment of Christianity," Francis E. Abbott, as published in The Index magazine, January 6, 1872
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Offline Impish

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Impeachment of Christianity: Conclusion
« Reply #139 on: August 25, 2006, 07:08:03 pm »
"In the name, therefore. of Human Intelligence, of Human Virtue, of the Human Heart, of Human Freedom, and Humanitarian Religion, I seriously and earnestly impeach Christianity before the tribunal of Humanity it still continues to outrage and enslave.  I impeach it in the name of that which is higher than itself, not lower -- in the name of Truth, of Morality, of Love, of Liberty, of God; and I summon it to answer at the bar of Humanity, its rightful judge, that it may clear itself of the crimes and misdemeanors of which I accuse it, or else submit to the sentence of just condemnation pronounced against it by the public opinion of civilized mankind.

Francis E. Abbott, 1872



From: "Impeachment of Christianity," Francis E. Abbott, as published in The Index magazine, January 6, 1872
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Offline Impish

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Ingersoll's 1889 Poem
« Reply #140 on: September 08, 2006, 10:46:21 am »
Declaration of the Free

            We have no falsehoods to defend
            We want the facts;
            Our force, our thought, we do not spend
            In vain attacks.
            And we will never meanly try
            To save some fair and pleasing lie.

            The simple truth is what we ask,
            Not the ideal;
            We've set ourselves the noble task
            To find the real.
            If all there is naught but dross,
            We want to know and bear our loss.

            We will not willingly be fooled,
            By fables nursed;
            Our hearts, by earnest thought, are schooled
            To bear the worst;
            And we can stand erect and dare
            All things. all facts that really are.

            We have no God to serve or fear,
            No hell to shun,
            No devil with malicious leer.
            When life is done
            An endless sleep may close our eyes.
            A sleep with neither dreams nor sighs.

            We have no master on the land --
            No king in air --
            Without a manacle we stand,
            Without a prayer,
            Without a fear of coming night,
            We seek the truth, we love the light.

            We do not bow before a guess,
            A vague unknown;
            A senseless force we do not bless
            In solemn tone.
            When evil comes we do not curse,
            Or thank because it is no worse.

            When cyclones rend -- when lightning blights,
            'Tis naught but fate;
            There is no God of wrath who smites
            In heartless hate.
            Behind the things that injure man
            There is no purpose, thought, or plan.

            We waste no time in useless dread,
            In trembling fear;
            The present lives, the past is dead,
            And we are here,
            All welcome guests at life's great feast --
            We need no help from ghost or priest.

            Our life is joyous, jocund, free --
            Not one a slave
            Who bends in fear the trembling knee,
            And seeks to save
            A coward soul from future pain;
            Not one will cringe or crawl for gain.

            The jeweled cup of love we drain,
            And friendship's wine
            Now swiftly flows in every vein
            With warmth divine.
            And so we love and hope and dream
            That in death's sky there is a gleam.

            We walk according to our light,
            Pursue the path
            That leads to honor's stainless height,
            Careless of wrath
            Or curse of God, or priestly spite,
            Longing to know and do the right.

            We love our fellow-man, our kind,
            Wife, child, and friend.
            To phantoms we are deaf and blind,
            But we extend
            The helping hand to the distressed;
            By lifting others we are blessed.

            Love's sacred flame within the heart
            And friendship's glow;
            While all the miracles of art
            Their wealth bestow
            Upon the thrilled and joyous brain,
            And present raptures banish pain.

            We love no phantoms of the skies,
            But living flesh,
            With passion's soft and soulful eyes,
            Lips warm and fresh,
            And cheeks with health's red flag unfurled,
            The breathing angels of this world.

            The hands that help are better far
            Than lips that pray.
            Love is the ever gleaming star
            That leads the way,
            That shines, not on vague worlds of bliss,
            But on a paradise in this.

            We do not pray, or weep, or wail;
            We have no dread,
            No fear to pass beyond the veil
            That hides the dead.
            And yet we question, dream, and guess,
            But knowledge we do not possess.

            We ask, yet nothing seems to know;
            We cry in vain.
            There is no "master of the show"
            Who will explain,
            Or from the future tear the mask;
            And yet we dream, and still we ask

            Is there beyond the silent night
            An endless day;
            Is death a door that leads to light?
            We cannot say.
            The tongueless secret locked in fate
            We do not know. -- We hope and wait.

Robert G. Ingersoll (1889)
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Offline delalluvia

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Jesu Jugen
« Reply #141 on: September 12, 2006, 06:57:00 pm »
There was a new movie released this summer called "Jesus Camp"
 
Plot Outline: A documentary on kids who attend a summer camp hoping to become the next Billy Graham.
 
 
"Jesus Camp" revolves around a pentecostal minister who hosts a summer camp for children in North Dakota, and the sectarian Christian conservative families who send their children to this camp. Directors Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady wisely chose to avoid the polemical tone of most politically-motivated films, and instead opt to present a mostly unfiltered glimpse of this odd subculture. But through carefully selected images and the use of talk radio commentary as a framing device, they construct a subtle, yet damning narrative about a religious movement that isolates its children from mainstream culture, indoctrinates them into right-wing causes, and uses them as political props.

At Jesus Camp, the daily activities include standard camp fare such as spelunking and go-karts, but they also include speaking in tongues and smashing coffee mugs emblazoned with the word "government". Children learn that "science doesn't prove anything," and learn to consider themselves part of an Army of God. They are compelled to pledge that they will fight to end abortion. They are even pushed into publicly confessing their impure thoughts, and many of them cry and wail charismatically.

The camp director explains that she admires the way Islamic cultures raise children so devoted they will risk their lives for their faith. When we ultimately see several of the campers being placed by their parents on the steps of the Capitol with tape over their mouths, protesting abortion, the real purpose of this camp is driven home.

But the most touching scenes are the ones where the children are alone, and we see the ways that this indoctrination creeps into the most innocent elements of childhood. 11 year old Tori loves dancing to Christian rock, but frets that it's not always easy to dance for God instead of "dancing for the flesh." On an outing to the bowling alley, 9 year old Rachael feels compelled to walk up to strangers and awkwardly evangelize to them, without being prompted. A roomful of boys telling ghost stories after dark are interrupted by an adult who warns them about stories that don't glorify God.

No doubt some viewers will accuse the filmmakers of the dreaded liberal bias. But this is not a work of fiction, nor is it slanted reporting. These are real people and real events, captured on film. If the evangelical movement comes off badly in this film, the people on screen have no one but themselves to blame.

Offline Shuggy

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #142 on: September 12, 2006, 07:27:22 pm »
I saw Televangelist Benny Hinn at work this morning. If it wasnt so tragic it would be funny. He pushed one woman down three times, "driving the devil out of her"*, and her minders bounced her back up as if she was on a trampoline. He told God to make an young man into a preacher. God did not reply.



You may have heard this one - you really have to see it (act out all parts):

EVANGELIST: I ve converted my dog. Hes now an evangelist. Look.
(to DOG) Pray!
 
(DOG puts paws into doggy attitude of prayer/begging)

EVANGELIST (to DOG): Praise!

(DOG waves paws in the air.)


BYSTANDER: Thats all very well, but can he do ordinary doggy tricks?
(to DOG) Heel!

(DOG pushes LISTENER TO THE JOKE in the forehead)

Offline delalluvia

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Too funny
« Reply #143 on: September 12, 2006, 09:37:46 pm »

Offline Impish

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"Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris.
« Reply #144 on: September 27, 2006, 07:58:25 pm »
I just finished reading Sam Harris' new book "Letter to a Christian Nation."

It's a cute little thing: a short book in a small binding.  It doesn't introduce anything knew compared to his first book "The End of Faith," but condenses the central arguments and re-presents them in a second-person, letter-like prose.  For example, "Billions of people share your belief that the Creator wrote (or dictated) one of our books."

It's clear that Harris hopes to make his thinking accessible to more people, especially Christian Americans. 

If you are intrigued by the topic matter, I recommend "The End of Faith" for a more thorough analysis of the problems inherent in magical beliefs.  If the longer book puts you off, then give this short -- less than 100 pages -- book a try. 

Tonight I start Richard Dawkins' newest book, just released last week.  It's called "The God Delusion."
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If you won't pray in my school, I won't think in your church.

Offline dirtbiker

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #145 on: May 23, 2010, 10:07:39 pm »
A little late on this thread, but I'm atheist also!  Brought up catholic, moved to agnosticism then atheism, now more of an anti-theist.  How's everyone?

Offline Monika

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #146 on: May 24, 2010, 02:11:22 am »
I´m also an atheist. I suppose I was brought up one, my parents have never shown any interest in anything religious. But my grandmother was a salvation soldier and as a child I was a member in the salvation army. Looking back at that time, I had pretty fun (they arranged many activities and events), but I can also see that it wasn´t my own choice. And I was there to hang out with firends, play fotball and participate in other activities. I was too little to really understand the religious aspect.
I dropped out when I was about 12 - 13 because I had a best friend who wasn´t a member and it was much more fun to hang with her ;D
I was born during a period when it was still the case that every newborn automatically became a member of the Swedish church (since around 1990 this is no longer the case), but I also dropped out of that at age 18.

I´d call myself an atheist and humanist. And as such, I feel pretty good about living here. Religion is not something that I encounter very often. Religion has very little significance in the public debate here and I don´t have to listen to politicians using "god" to win political points.

There is plenty of religious stuff to find here for those who seek it, but like me, if you´re not looking for it, it´s fairly easy to stay clear from.


Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #147 on: May 24, 2010, 08:11:57 am »
I remember posting to this tread a few years ago, and I think in someways my views of spirituality has changed. I don't call my self and atheist, or agnostic, I think what would describe my beliefs better is "I don't care".

The tradition of myth and magic has only the power we give it by believing in it. Me, I am just happy not to be responsible for perpetuating that mess. I would rather put energy into the vision John Lennon had. "Imagine all the people, living life in peace,"
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline louisev

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #148 on: May 24, 2010, 11:56:34 am »
Let's deal with these one after the other:

<Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?> 

No, it isn't God's job to prevent evil: it is our job.

<Then he is not omnipotent.>  We are God's body, and it is our responsibility to govern ourselves in the physical form.  And through us collectively, we ARE omnipotent.

<Is He able, but not willing?>  The Divinity is ever willing, but we must be able because WE have free will as we were created to act as WE will.

<Then whence cometh evil?>  That is obvious.  Through our willful actions that are destructive to others.

<Is he neither able nor willing?>  Neither.  Non sequitur input.

The profoundly erroneous view that Divinity is somehow a created thing with manlike attributes is the foundation of all ill-conceived atheism.

God is Immanent.  That means the Divine Essence is pervasive, universal, uncreated and without beginning or end. We are manifestations of that Immanence.  It's up to us.







“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline dirtbiker

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #149 on: May 24, 2010, 12:23:13 pm »
Buffymon, you are lucky to be born in Sweden.  Here in the US, religion is so pervasive that you just can't get away from it, with daily references in media, politics, education, etc.

Shakesthecoffeecan, I wish I can have an "I don't care" attitude.  Maybe if I was living in Europe, it would be easier, but not here in the US when we're reminded of it every day and encroaches on our lives insidiously.  Left unchecked, it wouldn't be far fetched to think of the US turning into a theocracy, something Sarah Palin, the buffoon, aims to achieve.

Impish, I read Sam Harris' books a while back and I agree with you - they are very readable and presents his case, along with rebuttals in his follow up Letter to a Christian Nation.  I'm surprised you're just starting out on Richard Dawkin's God Delusion!  I have the book on audiobook also, and I like to listen to it sometimes when I'm taking a long road trip.  Helps me pass the time.

Offline louisev

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #150 on: May 24, 2010, 01:50:55 pm »
dirtbiker - theocracy is NOT going to happen in America.  IF it was ever likely to happen it would have been when those fundamentalist nutcases, the Pilgrims, my ancestors, landed at Plymouth, because they had the advantage of being the first ones to stake out territory.  It is way too late - and separation of Church and State are enshrined in our Constitution, as much as the Sarah Palin's of the world are trying to repeal it.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Monika

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #151 on: May 24, 2010, 02:06:59 pm »
Richard Dawkin's God Delusion! 
Richard Dawkin´s is great. I love his sense of logic.

Offline Marina

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #152 on: May 24, 2010, 02:35:35 pm »
Quote
<Then whence cometh evil?>  That is obvious.  Through our willful actions that are destructive to others.

I would add our inaction to this as well.

I don't believe in organized religions devised by humankind - there's sometimes too much hypocrisy and they are sometimes too self-serving for me.   The basic tenets of them are good - but they get twisted around until they only serve humankind's need for power, and are suceptible to human corruption.  And - surprise! - they place humankind in some kind of self-proclaimed dominion of the Earth.   Negative messages such as these, reinforced over the centuries by religions, are tough to change.  I do believe in a higher power though, God, a Creator, something higher than ourselves.   When I look around at the natural world, I just feel there must be something higher than ourselves, something with a deeper meaning.  Atheism has always struck me as just one more example of mankind's arrogance and self-importance.

I was raised as a Protestant; and have always had a curiosity regarding spirituality.   Over the years, my beliefs incorporate Buddhist, Hindu and Native American and Celtic, as well, and I don't discount some of the basic, loving tenets of most.  When they get twisted into hateful beliefs is where I draw the line.   I think my personal beliefs are as valid as any.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 08:39:31 am by marina »
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Offline dirtbiker

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #153 on: May 24, 2010, 06:52:10 pm »
dirtbiker - theocracy is NOT going to happen in America.  IF it was ever likely to happen it would have been when those fundamentalist nutcases, the Pilgrims, my ancestors, landed at Plymouth, because they had the advantage of being the first ones to stake out territory.  It is way too late - and separation of Church and State are enshrined in our Constitution, as much as the Sarah Palin's of the world are trying to repeal it.

Well never say never.  Apathy could lead to unpleasant changes!

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #154 on: May 24, 2010, 07:38:23 pm »
Yes, it could happen. Look at Iran.

I do actually care about this, I strongly support separation of church and state, what I don't care about is weather or not there is a here after. I do think that religion, including divinity in all its forms is a human creation, and as such, somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy. Could Armageddon happen? Sure, if some one in the right place and the right time thought it was their duty to make it happen.
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #155 on: May 24, 2010, 08:49:59 pm »
Alls I can say is wow!
Kinda sad.  :-\
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #156 on: May 24, 2010, 10:53:14 pm »
Yes, it could happen. Look at Iran.

I do actually care about this, I strongly support separation of church and state, what I don't care about is weather or not there is a here after. I do think that religion, including divinity in all its forms is a human creation, and as such, somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy.

I very much agree with this perspective.  The fact that the U.S. constitution is so much a product of Enlightenment era philosophy makes me think that this understanding of religion as human-made (something right out of Voltaire among others) might have a lot to do with the separation of church and state that we thankfully have now.

And, I agree that principles like that need to be guarded.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Monika

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #157 on: May 25, 2010, 03:49:58 am »
It´s interesting to see the different kinds of replies that a little thread on atheism creates.

Offline Marina

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #158 on: May 25, 2010, 08:34:30 am »
Quote
The fact that the U.S. constitution is so much a product of Enlightenment era philosophy makes me think that this understanding of religion as human-made (something right out of Voltaire among others) might have a lot to do with the separation of church and state that we thankfully have now.

I agree.  I am always amazed by the foresight of the founders of our US Constitution.   Not only does it provide for people to believe how they wish, but also to keep religion out of government.   :)
“Only within the moment of time represented by the present century has one species -- man -- acquired significant power to alter the nature of his world.”
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Offline Sophia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #159 on: May 25, 2010, 09:23:13 am »
I am glad that state and religion are as part as possible.  :)

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #160 on: May 27, 2010, 08:50:38 am »
Yes, it could happen. Look at Iran.

This makes me think of a televised debate in Australia with Richard Dawkins (where a member of the audience argued that [paraphrased] "evil would reign").  Richard quite calmly indicated that there has never been a situation where an invasion/atrocity has occurred on the grounds of spreading atheism.  Maybe this is a little trite though because although quite correct, it doesn't really address the fact that an absence of cause [in this case religious rightiousness] is a little difficult to articulate when trying to motivate your kinsmen to rape, pillage, and plunder.

So the fact that religion has been used as an excuse to justify many an evil act it doesn't, in and of itself, make religion responsible for the evil act.  You could also argue that if religion and religious leaders hadn't become so hysterical about their version of morality then Richard Dawkins himself wouldn't exist, at least as a media identity and author.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #161 on: May 27, 2010, 11:16:25 am »
Hi, Chris! Nice to see you around these parts!  :D




Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #162 on: May 29, 2010, 07:09:53 am »
Hi, Chris! Nice to see you around these parts!  :D

Hi there, it has been a while hasn't it?  I guess the dredging up of one of my favourite old threads couldn't help but get me to post something, eh.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #163 on: May 29, 2010, 07:35:56 am »
Let's deal with these one after the other:

<Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?> 

No, it isn't God's job to prevent evil: it is our job.

Says who?  According to some religious dogma, god is supposed to be omnipotent.  If someone makes this sort of claim about their god, this is a statement they can be called on.

Quote
<Then he is not omnipotent.>  We are God's body, and it is our responsibility to govern ourselves in the physical form.  And through us collectively, we ARE omnipotent.

Again, few religions claim the faithful are omnipotent, because, of course, they know they're not.

Quote
<Is He able, but not willing?>  The Divinity is ever willing, but we must be able because WE have free will as we were created to act as WE will.

Uh uh uh.  If he is willing, then why doesn't he do it?  This sounds like an excuse.  If WE are able to do something, if WE are omnipotent, if WE are responsible...why do we need a god?

Quote
<Then whence cometh evil?>  That is obvious.  Through our willful actions that are destructive to others.

Yeah, but who created us?  And who created evil?

Quote
<Is he neither able nor willing?>  Neither.  Non sequitur input.

Not at all.  Quite relevant.  God is claimed as creator, as omnipotent, as loving and caring by some religious beliefs...these are quite relevant questions that go right to the heart of why a god is worthy of worship, if - according to your post - we do everything for ourselves and to ourselves.


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #164 on: May 29, 2010, 09:40:04 am »
I'm not sure you'd even have to get into human evil, and whose "job" it is to control it. You could simply ask, why would a loving, caring, omnipotent god allow tsunamis and earthquakes and hurricanes? Obviously those cause untold misery, probably at least as much as that caused by human evil, but they're "acts of God."

If there's an omnipotent god, and that God is also "loving and caring," then either God's definition of loving and caring, or God's ultimate loving and caring purposes, are so far beyond our understanding that there's hardly any point in trying to grasp God's intentions.

All humans share some basic moral assumptions, whether they follow them or not. But it's clear that our moral assumptions in no way match the way the world operates, even in its "natural" state, that is, without human intervention. Since God, if there is a god, is presumably in charge of nature, then one has to ask why God's morality seems so out of sync with ours.



Offline delalluvia

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #165 on: September 20, 2010, 06:58:13 pm »
Richard Dawkins' speech countering the Pope's claim that Hitler was an atheist.

Good listen

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #166 on: September 20, 2010, 11:46:57 pm »
I'm not sure you'd even have to get into human evil, and whose "job" it is to control it. You could simply ask, why would a loving, caring, omnipotent god allow tsunamis and earthquakes and hurricanes? Obviously those cause untold misery, probably at least as much as that caused by human evil, but they're "acts of God."

If there's an omnipotent god, and that God is also "loving and caring," then either God's definition of loving and caring, or God's ultimate loving and caring purposes, are so far beyond our understanding that there's hardly any point in trying to grasp God's intentions.

All humans share some basic moral assumptions, whether they follow them or not. But it's clear that our moral assumptions in no way match the way the world operates, even in its "natural" state, that is, without human intervention. Since God, if there is a god, is presumably in charge of nature, then one has to ask why God's morality seems so out of sync with ours.

I agree with everything you say here.  But, I'd also like to add the observation (and it's part of the core of why I question religion/god, etc.)... that the idea that human morality and "God's" morality should in some perfect scenario match-up... is human-centric.  If humans believe that god is in charge of the universe (including all elements of creation), why should a god always be so connected to human concerns or interests?  Maybe a tsunami has some great benefit to some other natural aspect of the world (maybe somehow beneficial to sea life, say) unrelated to humans.

Religions, to me, seem to be stories about people.  People are a teeny-tiny part of the universe... not to mention only one species of countless here on earth.  Why would a god always be focused on human concerns?  The fact that so many religions or all religions, are human-centric to me indicates that these are myths/stories devised by people to deal with human fears, etc.  And, things like Greek myths and Egyptian religion seem to be case studies in this... we see those myths as stories or almost literature now... but they were actual religions for hundreds and even thousands of years.

The idea that a long-established religion can be completely thrown over-board is a really interesting and perhaps cautionary tale for current religions.





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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #167 on: September 21, 2010, 10:00:53 am »
But, I'd also like to add the observation (and it's part of the core of why I question religion/god, etc.)... that the idea that human morality and "God's" morality should in some perfect scenario match-up... is human-centric.  If humans believe that god is in charge of the universe (including all elements of creation), why should a god always be so connected to human concerns or interests?  Maybe a tsunami has some great benefit to some other natural aspect of the world (maybe somehow beneficial to sea life, say) unrelated to humans.

Well, that's a good point. When I think about the tsunami, I think about seeing Jon Stewart making fun of Star Jones (then a co-host on "The View") who apparently said something like, she had planned to be in the area that day but something interfered and she wasn't there, which she attributed to God watching over her. So Jon Stewart pointed out (humorously, of course) how absurd it was for Star Jones to think that God would be sure to protect her, but obviously didn't care about all those other thousands of people. What a weird god that would be. Which raises the question of why people even bother to pray that, say, they'll get that promotion at work or whatever. Why would God care about that, yet let other people endure far more dire or tragic situations?

But you're right, not only is there no reason to think that God cares more about Star Jones than other people, there's not even reason to think that God cares more about people than other creatures.


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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #168 on: September 21, 2010, 12:03:51 pm »
I agree with everything you say here.  But, I'd also like to add the observation (and it's part of the core of why I question religion/god, etc.)... that the idea that human morality and "God's" morality should in some perfect scenario match-up... is human-centric.  If humans believe that god is in charge of the universe (including all elements of creation), why should a god always be so connected to human concerns or interests?  Maybe a tsunami has some great benefit to some other natural aspect of the world (maybe somehow beneficial to sea life, say) unrelated to humans.

Religions, to me, seem to be stories about people.  People are a teeny-tiny part of the universe... not to mention only one species of countless here on earth.  Why would a god always be focused on human concerns?  The fact that so many religions or all religions, are human-centric to me indicates that these are myths/stories devised by people to deal with human fears, etc.  And, things like Greek myths and Egyptian religion seem to be case studies in this... we see those myths as stories or almost literature now... but they were actual religions for hundreds and even thousands of years.

The idea that a long-established religion can be completely thrown over-board is a really interesting and perhaps cautionary tale for current religions.

"Process theology" has a few things to say about that.  A fairly good summary is at http://www.ctr4process.org/about/process/GodUniverse.shtml

I can't speak for Louise in replying to reactions about "God's job"; but she isn't the first to make a point about expecting the Creator to be Mr. Fixit:

At Auschwitz, the question: "where was God."

The answer: "where was man?"
  (William Styron)


Needless to say, process theology is considered a heresy, by religious and atheist fundamentalists alike..


Offline louisev

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #169 on: September 21, 2010, 12:21:21 pm »
Here's my take on it, and I don't sweat anything about Star Jones thinking God was watching out for her or whatever.  God is not a guy, and is not vindictive, God is the sum total of all of the natural laws and forces that govern the universe, and is, at the same time, consciousness itself - the consciousness of the universe.

We don't sit around and ask whether gravity is evil when someone falls in a ravine and breaks his neck.  However, those who believe in a personal, anthropomorphic God, DO believe that God has a hand in these workings of natural law.  Is there 'bad' gravity and "good gravity' - bad gravity is the kind that causes you to fall in a ravine and break your neck, and the good gravity is the gravity that keeps you on the surface of the earth and not float into the Sun?  No.  There's just 'gravity' - with all of its implacable working.

And that is how God works, whether fundamentalists like it or not.    The contradictions and limitations that fundamentalists grapple with as articles of faith are caused entirely by their view that God is some sort of super-guy, and supernatural, and in actual fact there IS nothing outside of nature.  God is the sum total of all nature.

Whether Star Jones was saved or not is not really in God's job description.  That is a factor of her karma and her plan for her incarnation.  If she wants to chalk it up to God well good for her, but just like blaming God for gravity allowing you to crash in a ravine, giving credit to God for your own personal karma is just as erroneous.

In case anyone wants to know what this point of view is, it is called mystical pantheism:  the belief that God is immanent AND knowable.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #170 on: September 21, 2010, 12:44:39 pm »
The contradictions and limitations that fundamentalists grapple with as articles of faith are caused entirely by their view that God is some sort of super-guy, and supernatural, and in actual fact there IS nothing outside of nature.  God is the sum total of all nature.

OK, but then how does this belief differ from atheism? Atheists don't deny the existence of nature. They deny the existence of a supernatural consciousness who created/controls the universe. Remove that supernatural being from the equation, and it seems to me you're pretty much left with atheism.

Or am I missing something?




Offline louisev

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #171 on: September 21, 2010, 12:53:32 pm »
OK, but then how does this belief differ from atheism? Atheists don't deny the existence of nature. They deny the existence of a supernatural consciousness who created/controls the universe. Remove that supernatural being from the equation, and it seems to me you're pretty much left with atheism.

Or am I missing something?

Two huge differences between pantheism and atheism

a) Pantheists believe that the universe is ordered, orderly, and also conscious, and therefore we are evolving spiritually as part of that all-conscious beingness that is known as God.  The consensus among atheists is that the universe is accidental or random, and that natural laws occur outside of any controlling force

b) Atheists  deny that we have a spiritual nature; because along with the pantheistic view of God as immanent is another belief that the human soul is immortal - therefore most pantheists believe also in reincarnation.  Atheists do not believe in a human spiritual nature or "essence"  - the most famous statement of atheistic philosophy being "existence precedes essence"  or Rand's objectivist claim " existence is."   

So there are two huge differences between atheism and pantheism.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #172 on: September 21, 2010, 01:46:17 pm »
So there are two huge differences between atheism and pantheism.

Thanks for clarifying!  :)


Marge_Innavera

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Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #173 on: September 28, 2010, 10:40:09 am »
Two huge differences between pantheism and atheism

a) Pantheists believe that the universe is ordered, orderly, and also conscious, and therefore we are evolving spiritually as part of that all-conscious beingness that is known as God.  The consensus among atheists is that the universe is accidental or random, and that natural laws occur outside of any controlling force

b) Atheists  deny that we have a spiritual nature; because along with the pantheistic view of God as immanent is another belief that the human soul is immortal - therefore most pantheists believe also in reincarnation.  Atheists do not believe in a human spiritual nature or "essence"  - the most famous statement of atheistic philosophy being "existence precedes essence"  or Rand's objectivist claim " existence is."   

So there are two huge differences between atheism and pantheism.

Pantheism is a first cousin to panentheism, which also believes in a non-theistic Deity:


Reality exists.

We, you and I, exist within reality.

Reality had a beginning.

The beginning was initiated by a creative force.

Reality exists within the force that created reality.

Reality coexists with its creative force for a reason.
Reality depends on its creative force for continuation.

The creative force depends upon the reality it created as a place to travel, to learn, to create, to expand upon its omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience.

The creative force travels reality in many forms, one of which is within you as the soul.

You are a piece of God and deserve, must demand, to be treated with the appropriate respect as you travel reality, life.

Everyone is a piece of God and deserves, must demand, to be treated with the appropriate respect as they travel reality.

You must treat everyone with the appropriate respect as they travel reality for they are a piece of God.

You must demand everyone around you be treated with appro-priate respect as they travel reality.

You will return from whence you came carrying with you the results of your travels.

You will experience for eternity the pleasant warmth or painful fire of the knowledge and worse yet, the full empathy, of the direct and indirect results of your travels through reality or what is called the ripple effect of your life.

Lots more about panentheism via Google, but that's a pretty good list of principles.