Author Topic: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are  (Read 69537 times)

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #90 on: July 11, 2006, 11:29:18 pm »
One thing that struck me about Brokeback Mountain is that it's the purest example of existentialism in film that I've ever seen -- start to finish.  Existential themes have been taken up in a lot literature, but never in film or television -- at least, not to this degree.  This is part of what absolutely floored me while watching, and it has a lot to do with the film as a work of art.

Would you be willing to explain this a bit more (maybe in a new thread in the Open Forum rather than here)? A college friend once called me an existentialist, and I've never fully understood what he meant (even after reading a little Sartre... well, ok, so I didn't read French well enough to really understand Sartre, either). I'm wondering if whatever-that-connection-is might help me understand why BBM knocked me for a loop like this.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline starboardlight

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,127
    • nipith.com
Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2006, 12:50:13 am »
Reply to a Christian, by Sam Harris
From:  Council for Secular Humanism (http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=sharris_26_4)

... Of course, your reasons for believing in God may be more personal than those I have discussed above. I have no doubt that your acceptance of Christ coincided with some very positive changes in your life. Perhaps you regularly feel rapture or bliss while in prayer. I do not wish to denigrate any of these experiences. I would point out, however, that billions of other human beings, in every time and place, have had similar experiences-but they had them while thinking about Krishna, or Allah, or the Buddha, while making art or music, or while contemplating the sheer beauty of nature. There is no question that it is possible for us to have profoundly transformative experiences. And there is no question that it is possible for us to misinterpret these experiences and to further delude ourselves about the nature of the universe.

sorry, jumping into this rather late. Impish, thank you for posting that article. I really liked reading Harris's reasoning and logic. The section I quoted suddenly made sense of something for me. While practicing Buddhism growing up or trying Christianity while in high school, they never made sense to me. I never had that transformative ecstasy that so many claimed to have. That is until BBM. The film/story/characters did bring me to a point of breaking down my walls and forcing me to look at my life honestly. A few days after seeing the film, I woke up in bed, convulsively crying, realizing exactly what I had been hiding from myself, and why. I came out the other end of that experience with a clearer vision of how my life is suppose to be. I never thought of it as a "transformative experience", but Harris's words suddenly clicked. There was a cleansing, here was ecstasy, and I was transformed. Now I understand why in conjunction with thinking about God, Allah, or Buddha, such an experience can incite such an adamant faith in a religion.

I don't quite agree with Harris on the need to convince others to reject their faith, however. I think that for many faith is something they need to comfort or to give meaning and order to their lives. We need only to convince them that they must accept that others have faith in different things and ideas. It is okay to have personal reason to hold on to faith, no?

and for answering the original post, I don't know if I'd say I'm an Atheist. I'm perfect willing to accept that there is a god, as well as to accept that there is NO god. I certainly believe that their are spiritual realms beyond our own, from personal experience. (see the ghost thread in the poll forum) but the experience was personal, so I don't offer it as proof to anyone that they should believe as I do. I don't believe that any of the religions have the right answer. Buddhism at its heart with its message of moderation as the answer to life's suffering is probably the only one that comes closest to being an answer I can accept. So I think "agnostic" is more appropriate to describe my religious affiliation?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 12:58:44 am by starboardlight »
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2006, 10:17:59 am »
Would you be willing to explain this a bit more (maybe in a new thread in the Open Forum rather than here)? A college friend once called me an existentialist, and I've never fully understood what he meant (even after reading a little Sartre... well, ok, so I didn't read French well enough to really understand Sartre, either). I'm wondering if whatever-that-connection-is might help me understand why BBM knocked me for a loop like this.

Not to steal TexRob's thunder, but I've been called an existentialist, too.  The Wikipedia definition leaves me kind of cold.  The way I see it, being an existentialist is being someone trying to find meaning in a godless world.  The existential dilemma is trying to decide what is right and what is wrong in a world where no one will ultimately judge us for our actions - i.e., since there is no God, if I can get away with it, what's to stop me from lying, stealing, killing?  I don't think it's an accurate moniker for me now, because I have found meaning and I do know what's to stop me - my own conscience.  The existentialist believes he or she exists separately from all other individuals (and from God) and doesn't need anyone else for anything.  I'm too much of a social animal for that.  I'm a humanist, I think.  I think we're all connected through our very humanity - through the fact that we all need sleep and water and food, that we all laugh and weep, that we all die.  So I'm still a little miffed that this person thinks that of me.  Either she doesn't really understand the word or she doesn't really understand me.  Just being an atheist alone doesn't make one existential, like she thought.  One can find a great deal of meaning in life and in nature without the existence of a god or gods.
No more beans!

Offline Impish

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 453
Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2006, 10:46:21 am »
Buddhism at its heart with its message of moderation as the answer to life's suffering is probably the only one that comes closest to being an answer I can accept. So I think "agnostic" is more appropriate to describe my religious affiliation?

Thanks for joining the discussion.  As to how you describe yourself, that is of course up to you.  If you remain undecided about the existence of gods, then yes, our society would deem you agnostic.

Harris' book "The End of Faith" has had an enormous impact on me.  While the major theme in the book is the irrationality of religion(s), he also devotes a chapter to his view of rational spirituality, in the vein of what he only mentions in your quote of him above.  I think you would enjoy it.

But here I go recommending another book!  :P  Not everyone  enjoys reading as much as I do...  so I'm not sure recommending books is really useful.

Let me ask you:  did you ever get the chance to read the "Covering" book?

 
Quote
If you won't pray in my school, I won't think in your church.

Offline Impish

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 453
Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2006, 11:01:37 am »
I'm a humanist, I think.  I think we're all connected through our very humanity - through the fact that we all need sleep and water and food, that we all laugh and weep, that we all die.  So I'm still a little miffed that this person thinks that of me.  Either she doesn't really understand the word or she doesn't really understand me.  Just being an atheist alone doesn't make one existential, like she thought.  One can find a great deal of meaning in life and in nature without the existence of a god or gods.

Existentialism is  barely understood by many, including me.  Like you, I'm  hoping that TexRob will help us understand it better.  I consider myself an existentialist only in the sense that I believe that when I die, that's it.  I no longer exist.  I'm sure that's a superficial understanding on my part.

I consider myself a Secular Humanist, a phrase that the christian right has managed to denigrate in the U.S.  You may be interested in this website (and its affiliates); they also have a podcast called "Point of Inquiry" that is top-notch, and the latest episode interviewed Paul Kurtz, who founded Secular Humanism.

And coincidentally (?), in that episode Kurtz discusses the morality and "goodness" of atheists and humanists, and how much more meaningful it is when it's not motivated by fear of death, or of hell, or of a god.

The website: http://www.secularhumanism.org/

To listen to that podcast using iTunes, look up "Point of Inquiry" and get the episode dated 7/7/06.  It's free, and you'll enjoy it.

Best, Impish
Quote
If you won't pray in my school, I won't think in your church.

Offline starboardlight

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,127
    • nipith.com
Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2006, 12:24:50 pm »
Let me ask you:  did you ever get the chance to read the "Covering" book?

Not yet. I kept waiting for the copy at my library to become available, but who ever has it checked out has kept it for months now. Either that or there's a long long line of people on the waiting list ahead of me. I decided to simply order it, and finally got around to it. It's in the mail and on it's way.

I do appreciate your book recommendations. I probably don't read as much as you do, time being a luxury I don't often have, but I do enjoy reading. I will check out Harris's book eventually. I like what his writing, from you've posted. I think I'll also recommend the book to my brother. I think he'll find Harris's insight interesting.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 12:28:24 pm by starboardlight »
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2006, 11:22:53 pm »
Not to steal TexRob's thunder, but I've been called an existentialist, too.  The Wikipedia definition leaves me kind of cold.  The way I see it, being an existentialist is being someone trying to find meaning in a godless world.  The existential dilemma is trying to decide what is right and what is wrong in a world where no one will ultimately judge us for our actions - i.e., since there is no God, if I can get away with it, what's to stop me from lying, stealing, killing?  I don't think it's an accurate moniker for me now, because I have found meaning and I do know what's to stop me - my own conscience.  The existentialist believes he or she exists separately from all other individuals (and from God) and doesn't need anyone else for anything.

Hmmm. See, that doesn't really describe me at all. I don't think one needs to believe in a deity to have a strong sense of right and wrong. (I'm probably a secular humanist, too. Well, mostly. I steal ideas from lots of non-theistic philosophies... and I'm not above stealing from people who believe in deities, too. I like the Wiccan saying "And ye hurt none" as a guide for right and wrong, for instance. I think a lot of religions have good ideas about how to get along with other people, if you skip past the parts where they tell you to kill everyone who doesn't agree with you.)

Back to existentialism: this friend used the description after reading a story that I had written for a creative writing class in high school. The main character, in the end, wasn't able to get out of the pattern her life fell into, even though the pattern was clearly messed up. (I recently told another friend about the story, and she laughed and said: "Ennis.") So I'm wondering if the connection has to do with being trapped by inaction, or something. That doesn't seem to have much to do with whether or not someone believes in a deity, though.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline isabelle

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
  • And French-kissing, too!
Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #97 on: July 13, 2006, 03:40:20 am »
If I may jump in...

"Existentialism is a form of Humanism" by Sartre was the first philosophy book I was made to read in high school (we do philosophy as a set subject in France).
I do not remember all of it, but basically, it said that man alone is responsible for the way he leads his life: he has nothing to expect from God as none exists, nothing to expect from an after life as there is none. He must take responsibility for his actions. This means that determinism, whereby you are supposed to become a delinquant because you come from a rough area or family and things like that, is not acceptable either: you CAN break free from vicious circles.
And what stops you doing evil is ethics, for which you don't need Gods. The idea too that you should behave the way you wish everybody would behave. I think this is a good guideline.
" - I'm vegan now."
"-Vegan? I thought you were still Church of England"

Offline Impish

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 453
Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #98 on: July 13, 2006, 09:36:17 am »
Thanks Isabelle!

That was my basic understanding of it, but you said it much more clearly.

I remain confused about TexRob's message tho'...  I wonder what  he meant when he said (paraphrasing) "not all existentialists are atheists" ?
Quote
If you won't pray in my school, I won't think in your church.

mvansand76

  • Guest
Re: Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
« Reply #99 on: July 13, 2006, 11:20:24 am »
Atheist here!