Why are the poor, poor?

[Jeff Wrangler]

I've always found ignoring people I disagree with to be a risky business. 
They may be making me look the fool and I don't even know it. 

    

I think you may be correct, Clyde.   

Incidentally, if you check back far enough on this thread, you will see that I did not suggest that he was advocating "Nazi death camps," only concentration camps (there is a difference)--which struck me as a logical extension of his proposal to legally force contraception on people in order for them to qualify for welfare benefits.

[serious crayons]

I believe she is using pretend as a verb, not as an adjective.

But then I guess I'm on ignore, so you won't see this. 

Thank you, Jeff. You are correct.

Broketrash, I wasn't sure whether you were joking. But as Jeff points out, my sentence should be read (and I guess should have been written) as, "Head Start does just about exactly what you (Kaiser) pretend that conservatives do ..."

Sure, I would like to believe that conservatives are just pretending to believe all those ridiculous things and actually have a secret agenda -- like those they often accusing Democrats of having! -- in which they favor more sensible positions. Sadly, I must accept that this is not the case.


For example, here's one of those things I am amazed that anyone would actually believe:

NO Kaiser, I am sorry, but the goal of the left in their "helpful" programs is CONTROL. If you are directly dependent on me to give you your bread, like the underclass is vis a vis the welfare bureaucracy, then when I say "frog jump" you will respond "How high SIR!"

This time, you DEFINITELY must be joking! Exactly what left-wing orders do you see people in the underclass as obediently following?

[Jeff Wrangler]

And isn't it amazing that the Conservative Right doesn't see their own ideas as attempts to CONTROL people?

Are they really that blind? That disingenuous? Or--I no longer care if I get in trouble for this--that stupid?

[HerrKaiser]

This is so twisted and convoluted in its logic that it defies comprehension, let alone response. You're saying something is only compassionate if it succeeds? I say that's completely wrong. Compassion has to do with motives, with, say, wanting to improve housing for the poor. If the first attempt to solve the problem doesn't work, then by all means move on and try something else, but that in no way means the motivation was not compassionate.

And your bizarre reference to Happy Meals, etc., is totally off the mark because I was talking about needs, not wants.

It really would help if you actually read posts before exclaiming on them with inaccuracies.

The points I made were:

"It seems ludicrous to think hard-nosed anticipations of success or failure need to be completely related to compassion to ensure the efforts success."

"compassion and results are indeed related."

Neither of those say "something is only compassionate if it succeeds" which was your altered interpretation. I truly do not understand why there is an ongoing campaign by you and seriouscrayons to misrepresent and make your misrepresentions nasty and personal.

Have you heard of the concept of 'tough love'? That is exemplory of compassion with a eye toward a successful outcome rather than simply delivering another "fix" that has only short term satisfaction, if that. The entitlement programs have largely not been 'tough love' and the results have been, by nearly all measurements, failures in terms of helping people get out of the cycle of not being able to care for themselves.

[Brown Eyes]

I think you may be correct, Clyde.   

Incidentally, if you check back far enough on this thread, you will see that I did not suggest that he was advocating "Nazi death camps," only concentration camps (there is a difference)--which struck me as a logical extension of his proposal to legally force contraception on people in order for them to qualify for welfare benefits.

Heya,

I've been reading along in this fascinating thread but haven't jumped in yet with a post.  I can't resist reconsidering the rather(extremely) radical suggestion of forcing contraception or even sterilization on poor people (as suggested long ago in this thread).  It reminds me strongly of the 18th century essay “A Modest Proposal” by Jonathan Swift... Of course, Swift was being ironic and trying to make a social-political point against harsh and dehumanizing measures that abuse the poor.

[brokeplex]

Thank you, Jeff. You are correct.

Broketrash, I wasn't sure whether you were joking. But as Jeff points out, my sentence should be read (and I guess should have been written) as, "Head Start does just about exactly what you (Kaiser) pretend that conservatives do ..."

Sure, I would like to believe that conservatives are just pretending to believe all those ridiculous things and actually have a secret agenda -- like those they often accusing Democrats of having! -- in which they favor more sensible positions. Sadly, I must accept that this is not the case.


For example, here's one of those things I am amazed that anyone would actually believe:

This time, you DEFINITELY must be joking! Exactly what left-wing orders do you see people in the underclass as obediently following?

direct orders from the high command of the left thru the fillings in their teeth, no that isn't what I meant!    

My comment had some basis in my genuine opinions as to the motivations of the left, and some part of it is simply hyperbolic to tickle Kaiser's funny bone, and some part was just to see what type of reaction the comment would produce, and from whom.

The motivations of control over others is certainly not limited to the left who continue to advocate a top heavy federally funded bureaucracy in underclass remediation, this is part of the  motivations of some of the Bible thumpers in the advocacy of their "stated" agenda My own opinion on this matter is that an advocacy of those who are professional and educated enough to actually understand the effect these welfare programs have on the underclass are politically motivated, therefore a hedge on power and control.

People who are dependent on programs for their very life, shelter, medical care, clothing, etc, are extremely unlikely to VOTE for or support anyone who wishes to make any type of radical change to those programs. They will vote for those who offer to protect their programs, and the same can be said of the bureaucrats who administer the programs. The long term consequence of the "War on Poverty" has been to create a political class who vote nearly lock step for Democrats. Democrats and other leftists are shrewd, they will continue to advocate these programs unencumbered, it is their political bread and butter.

And, yes I am sure that there are many in the rank and file of the left who are not dependent on the programs in any fashion but who genuinely see conservatives as mean, heartless, and cruel in their advocacy of radical changes in the welfare programs.

[serious crayons]

I've been reading along in this fascinating thread but haven't jumped in yet with a post.  I can't resist reconsidering the rather(extremely) radical suggestion of forcing contraception or even sterilization on poor people (as suggested long ago in this thread).  It reminds me strongly of the 18th century essay “A Modest Proposal” by Jonathan Swift... Of course, Swift was being ironic and trying to make a social-political point against harsh and dehumanizing measures that abuse the poor.

Hey Bud, thanks for joining in! 

It's funny you should say that. At one point, I considered pasting the entire text of A Modest Proposal into this thread! 

[Brown Eyes]

Hey Bud, thanks for joining in! 

It's funny you should say that. At one point, I considered pasting the entire text of A Modest Proposal into this thread! 

Heya Bud!

I think it would be very relevant to post the whole essay... and amazingly so considering how long ago it was written.

And, FWIW, I apologize if the topic of "A Modest Proposal" has come up earlier... It's entirely possible that I missed certain parts of this long and complicated thread.

[serious crayons]

People who are dependent on programs for their very life, shelter, medical care, clothing, etc, are extremely unlikely to VOTE for or support anyone who wishes to make any type of radical change to those programs.

The first half of this sentence is correct: "People who are dependent on programs for their very life, shelter, medical care, clothing, etc, are extremely unlikely to VOTE."

Yes, as I'm sure you know, voting rates are very low among the poor. (Many believe that's why George W. Bush was no hurry to rush to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, and I find that quite plausible.) If doing favors for poor people in exchange for their votes is the Democrats' big plan to get into office, it explains why they've lost the last two presidential elections! 

But when they DO vote, do many poor people vote for Democrats? Sure. Just like many rich people vote for Republicans. As a rule (with some obvious exceptions) people tend to vote for the candidates who they believe are most concerned with their interests. I don't see that as some kind of secret underhanded scheme on the part of either party. Bush is quite open about whom he considers his "base."  And that's why HE does the favors HE does. Nobody would mistake our president for someone who goes around worrying about poor folks.

[serious crayons]

I think it would be very relevant to post the whole essay... and amazingly so considering how long ago it was written.

And, FWIW, I apologize if the topic of "A Modest Proposal" has come up earlier... It's entirely possible that I missed certain parts of this long and complicated thread.

Nope, this is the first time it has come up. And your wish is my command. Since it's so long, I'm going to put it in quote mode to save space. For anyone who finds that difficult to read and wants to see it in bigger print, here's a link.

http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

A Modest Proposal

For Preventing The Children of Poor People in Ireland
From Being Aburden to Their Parents or Country, and
For Making Them Beneficial to The Public

 
By Jonathan Swift (1729)

 

              It is a melancholy object to those who walk through this great town or travel in the country, when they see the streets, the roads, and cabin doors, crowded with beggars of the female sex, followed by three, four, or six children, all in rags and importuning every passenger for an alms. These mothers, instead of being able to work for their honest livelihood, are forced to employ all their time in strolling to beg sustenance for their helpless infants: who as they grow up either turn thieves for want of work, or leave their dear native country to fight for the Pretender in Spain, or sell themselves to the Barbadoes.

I think it is agreed by all parties that this prodigious number of children in the arms, or on the backs, or at the heels of their mothers, and frequently of their fathers, is in the present deplorable state of the kingdom a very great additional grievance; and, therefore, whoever could find out a fair, cheap, and easy method of making these children sound, useful members of the commonwealth, would deserve so well of the public as to have his statue set up for a preserver of the nation.

But my intention is very far from being confined to provide only for the children of professed beggars; it is of a much greater extent, and shall take in the whole number of infants at a certain age who are born of parents in effect as little able to support them as those who demand our charity in the streets.

”I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled ...”

As to my own part, having turned my thoughts for many years upon this important subject, and maturely weighed the several schemes of other projectors, I have always found them grossly mistaken in the computation. It is true, a child just dropped from its dam may be supported by her milk for a solar year, with little other nourishment; at most not above the value of 2s., which the mother may certainly get, or the value in scraps, by her lawful occupation of begging; and it is exactly at one year old that I propose to provide for them in such a manner as instead of being a charge upon their parents or the parish, or wanting food and raiment for the rest of their lives, they shall on the contrary contribute to the feeding, and partly to the clothing, of many thousands.

There is likewise another great advantage in my scheme, that it will prevent those voluntary abortions, and that horrid practice of women murdering their bastard children, alas! too frequent among us! sacrificing the poor innocent babes I doubt more to avoid the expense than the shame, which would move tears and pity in the most savage and inhuman breast.

The number of souls in this kingdom being usually reckoned one million and a half, of these I calculate there may be about two hundred thousand couple whose wives are breeders; from which number I subtract thirty thousand couples who are able to maintain their own children, although I apprehend there cannot be so many, under the present distresses of the kingdom; but this being granted, there will remain an hundred and seventy thousand breeders. I again subtract fifty thousand for those women who miscarry, or whose children die by accident or disease within the year. There only remains one hundred and twenty thousand children of poor parents annually born. The question therefore is, how this number shall be reared and provided for, which, as I have already said, under the present situation of affairs, is utterly impossible by all the methods hitherto proposed. For we can neither employ them in handicraft or agriculture; we neither build houses (I mean in the country) nor cultivate land: they can very seldom pick up a livelihood by stealing, till they arrive at six years old, except where they are of towardly parts, although I confess they learn the rudiments much earlier, during which time, they can however be properly looked upon only as probationers, as I have been informed by a principal gentleman in the county of Cavan, who protested to me that he never knew above one or two instances under the age of six, even in a part of the kingdom so renowned for the quickest proficiency in that art.

I am assured by our merchants, that a boy or a girl before twelve years old is no salable commodity; and even when they come to this age they will not yield above three pounds, or three pounds and half-a-crown at most on the exchange; which cannot turn to account either to the parents or kingdom, the charge of nutriment and rags having been at least four times that value.

I shall now therefore humbly propose my own thoughts, which I hope will not be liable to the least objection.

I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee or a ragout.

I do therefore humbly offer it to public consideration that of the hundred and twenty thousand children already computed, twenty thousand may be reserved for breed, whereof only one-fourth part to be males; which is more than we allow to sheep, black cattle or swine; and my reason is, that these children are seldom the fruits of marriage, a circumstance not much regarded by our savages, therefore one male will be sufficient to serve four females. That the remaining hundred thousand may, at a year old, be offered in the sale to the persons of quality and fortune through the kingdom; always advising the mother to let them suck plentifully in the last month, so as to render them plump and fat for a good table. A child will make two dishes at an entertainment for friends; and when the family dines alone, the fore or hind quarter will make a reasonable dish, and seasoned with a little pepper or salt will be very good boiled on the fourth day, especially in winter.

I have reckoned upon a medium that a child just born will weigh 12 pounds, and in a solar year, if tolerably nursed, increaseth to 28 pounds.

I grant this food will be somewhat dear, and therefore very proper for landlords, who, as they have already devoured most of the parents, seem to have the best title to the children.

Infant's flesh will be in season throughout the year, but more plentiful in March, and a little before and after; for we are told by a grave author, an eminent French physician, that fish being a prolific diet, there are more children born in Roman Catholic countries about nine months after Lent than at any other season; therefore, reckoning a year after Lent, the markets will be more glutted than usual, because the number of popish infants is at least three to one in this kingdom: and therefore it will have one other collateral advantage, by lessening the number of papists among us.

I have already computed the charge of nursing a beggar's child (in which list I reckon all cottagers, laborers, and four-fifths of the farmers) to be about two shillings per annum, rags included; and I believe no gentleman would repine to give ten shillings for the carcass of a good fat child, which, as I have said, will make four dishes of excellent nutritive meat, when he hath only some particular friend or his own family to dine with him. Thus the squire will learn to be a good landlord, and grow popular among his tenants; the mother will have eight shillings net profit, and be fit for work till she produces another child.

Those who are more thrifty (as I must confess the times require) may flay the carcass; the skin of which artificially dressed will make admirable gloves for ladies, and summer boots for fine gentlemen.

As to our city of Dublin, shambles may be appointed for this purpose in the most convenient parts of it, and butchers we may be assured will not be wanting; although I rather recommend buying the children alive, and dressing them hot from the knife, as we do roasting pigs.

A very worthy person, a true lover of his country, and whose virtues I highly esteem, was lately pleased in discoursing on this matter to offer a refinement upon my scheme. He said that many gentlemen of this kingdom, having of late destroyed their deer, he conceived that the want of venison might be well supplied by the bodies of young lads and maidens, not exceeding fourteen years of age nor under twelve; so great a number of both sexes in every country being now ready to starve for want of work and service; and these to be disposed of by their parents, if alive, or otherwise by their nearest relations. But with due deference to so excellent a friend and so deserving a patriot, I cannot be altogether in his sentiments; for as to the males, my American acquaintance assured me, from frequent experience, that their flesh was generally tough and lean, like that of our schoolboys by continual exercise, and their taste disagreeable; and to fatten them would not answer the charge. Then as to the females, it would, I think, with humble submission be a loss to the public, because they soon would become breeders themselves; and besides, it is not improbable that some scrupulous people might be apt to censure such a practice (although indeed very unjustly), as a little bordering upon cruelty; which, I confess, hath always been with me the strongest objection against any project, however so well intended.

But in order to justify my friend, he confessed that this expedient was put into his head by the famous Psalmanazar, a native of the island Formosa, who came from thence to London above twenty years ago, and in conversation told my friend, that in his country when any young person happened to be put to death, the executioner sold the carcass to persons of quality as a prime dainty; and that in his time the body of a plump girl of fifteen, who was crucified for an attempt to poison the emperor, was sold to his imperial majesty's prime minister of state, and other great mandarins of the court, in joints from the gibbet, at four hundred crowns. Neither indeed can I deny, that if the same use were made of several plump young girls in this town, who without one single groat to their fortunes cannot stir abroad without a chair, and appear at playhouse and assemblies in foreign fineries which they never will pay for, the kingdom would not be the worse.

Some persons of a desponding spirit are in great concern about that vast number of poor people, who are aged, diseased, or maimed, and I have been desired to employ my thoughts what course may be taken to ease the nation of so grievous an encumbrance. But I am not in the least pain upon that matter, because it is very well known that they are every day dying and rotting by cold and famine, and filth and vermin, as fast as can be reasonably expected. And as to the young laborers, they are now in as hopeful a condition; they cannot get work, and consequently pine away for want of nourishment, to a degree that if at any time they are accidentally hired to common labor, they have not strength to perform it; and thus the country and themselves are happily delivered from the evils to come.

I have too long digressed, and therefore shall return to my subject. I think the advantages by the proposal which I have made are obvious and many, as well as of the highest importance.

For first, as I have already observed, it would greatly lessen the number of papists, with whom we are yearly overrun, being the principal breeders of the nation as well as our most dangerous enemies; and who stay at home on purpose with a design to deliver the kingdom to the Pretender, hoping to take their advantage by the absence of so many good protestants, who have chosen rather to leave their country than stay at home and pay tithes against their conscience to an episcopal curate.

Secondly, The poorer tenants will have something valuable of their own, which by law may be made liable to distress and help to pay their landlord's rent, their corn and cattle being already seized, and money a thing unknown.

Thirdly, Whereas the maintenance of an hundred thousand children, from two years old and upward, cannot be computed at less than ten shillings a-piece per annum, the nation's stock will be thereby increased fifty thousand pounds per annum, beside the profit of a new dish introduced to the tables of all gentlemen of fortune in the kingdom who have any refinement in taste. And the money will circulate among ourselves, the goods being entirely of our own growth and manufacture.

Fourthly, The constant breeders, beside the gain of eight shillings sterling per annum by the sale of their children, will be rid of the charge of maintaining them after the first year.

Fifthly, This food would likewise bring great custom to taverns; where the vintners will certainly be so prudent as to procure the best receipts for dressing it to perfection, and consequently have their houses frequented by all the fine gentlemen, who justly value themselves upon their knowledge in good eating: and a skilful cook, who understands how to oblige his guests, will contrive to make it as expensive as they please.

Sixthly, This would be a great inducement to marriage, which all wise nations have either encouraged by rewards or enforced by laws and penalties. It would increase the care and tenderness of mothers toward their children, when they were sure of a settlement for life to the poor babes, provided in some sort by the public, to their annual profit instead of expense. We should see an honest emulation among the married women, which of them could bring the fattest child to the market. Men would become as fond of their wives during the time of their pregnancy as they are now of their mares in foal, their cows in calf, their sows when they are ready to farrow; nor offer to beat or kick them (as is too frequent a practice) for fear of a miscarriage.

Many other advantages might be enumerated. For instance, the addition of some thousand carcasses in our exportation of barreled beef, the propagation of swine's flesh, and improvement in the art of making good bacon, so much wanted among us by the great destruction of pigs, too frequent at our tables; which are no way comparable in taste or magnificence to a well-grown, fat, yearling child, which roasted whole will make a considerable figure at a lord mayor's feast or any other public entertainment. But this and many others I omit, being studious of brevity.

Supposing that one thousand families in this city, would be constant customers for infants flesh, besides others who might have it at merry meetings, particularly at weddings and christenings, I compute that Dublin would take off annually about twenty thousand carcasses; and the rest of the kingdom (where probably they will be sold somewhat cheaper) the remaining eighty thousand.

I can think of no one objection, that will possibly be raised against this proposal, unless it should be urged, that the number of people will be thereby much lessened in the kingdom. This I freely own, and 'twas indeed one principal design in offering it to the world. I desire the reader will observe, that I calculate my remedy for this one individual Kingdom of Ireland, and for no other that ever was, is, or, I think, ever can be upon Earth. Therefore let no man talk to me of other expedients: Of taxing our absentees at five shillings a pound: Of using neither cloaths, nor houshold furniture, except what is of our own growth and manufacture: Of utterly rejecting the materials and instruments that promote foreign luxury: Of curing the expensiveness of pride, vanity, idleness, and gaming in our women: Of introducing a vein of parsimony, prudence and temperance: Of learning to love our country, wherein we differ even from Laplanders, and the inhabitants of Topinamboo: Of quitting our animosities and factions, nor acting any longer like the Jews, who were murdering one another at the very moment their city was taken: Of being a little cautious not to sell our country and consciences for nothing: Of teaching landlords to have at least one degree of mercy towards their tenants. Lastly, of putting a spirit of honesty, industry, and skill into our shop-keepers, who, if a resolution could now be taken to buy only our native goods, would immediately unite to cheat and exact upon us in the price, the measure, and the goodness, nor could ever yet be brought to make one fair proposal of just dealing, though often and earnestly invited to it.

Therefore I repeat, let no man talk to me of these and the like expedients, 'till he hath at least some glympse of hope, that there will ever be some hearty and sincere attempt to put them into practice.

But, as to my self, having been wearied out for many years with offering vain, idle, visionary thoughts, and at length utterly despairing of success, I fortunately fell upon this proposal, which, as it is wholly new, so it hath something solid and real, of no expence and little trouble, full in our own power, and whereby we can incur no danger in disobliging England. For this kind of commodity will not bear exportation, and flesh being of too tender a consistence, to admit a long continuance in salt, although perhaps I could name a country, which would be glad to eat up our whole nation without it.

After all, I am not so violently bent upon my own opinion as to reject any offer proposed by wise men, which shall be found equally innocent, cheap, easy, and effectual. But before something of that kind shall be advanced in contradiction to my scheme, and offering a better, I desire the author or authors will be pleased maturely to consider two points. First, as things now stand, how they will be able to find food and raiment for an hundred thousand useless mouths and backs. And secondly, there being a round million of creatures in human figure throughout this kingdom, whose whole subsistence put into a common stock would leave them in debt two millions of pounds sterling, adding those who are beggars by profession to the bulk of farmers, cottagers, and laborers, with their wives and children who are beggars in effect: I desire those politicians who dislike my overture, and may perhaps be so bold as to attempt an answer, that they will first ask the parents of these mortals, whether they would not at this day think it a great happiness to have been sold for food, at a year old in the manner I prescribe, and thereby have avoided such a perpetual scene of misfortunes as they have since gone through by the oppression of landlords, the impossibility of paying rent without money or trade, the want of common sustenance, with neither house nor clothes to cover them from the inclemencies of the weather, and the most inevitable prospect of entailing the like or greater miseries upon their breed for ever.

I profess, in the sincerity of my heart, that I have not the least personal interest in endeavoring to promote this necessary work, having no other motive than the public good of my country, by advancing our trade, providing for infants, relieving the poor, and giving some pleasure to the rich. I have no children by which I can propose to get a single penny; the youngest being nine years old, and my wife past child-bearing.

The End