Author Topic: Why are the poor, poor?  (Read 122655 times)

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #280 on: May 09, 2008, 10:33:19 pm »
Is there a better term than "moderate" to describe someone who can see merit in both viewpoints?  People tend to become more polarized in their arguments when defending one side or another of a topic in a debate.  I try to avoid this and keep an open mind.

Now, there's a sensible position! :D  Too bad we don't have more like you, SunShadow.  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline optom3

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #281 on: May 09, 2008, 11:06:52 pm »
O.K here goes.In parts of Africa where the poor really are incredibly poor,they will work incredibly hard to get their way out of poverty,given the chance. with money donated by charities and big events like live aid and live 8.Much of the money donated enabled some of the very poorest to dig wells,irrigate their land and so grow crops and slowly climb out of poverty.
It is true that some of the money was side tracked by corrupt governments.But when it did reach the source it was used wisely.These people did not simply want hand outs ,they wanted the money to enable them to work their own way out of poverty.
Can we in western societies learn something from this.I would think so.
My experience in England is that the poor need to have the situation where it is more desirable to work,than it is to rely on state handouts or crime or a combination thereof.State support should really be a final resort not the first port of call.

The jobs are obviously there, as there are thouands of immigrants flocking in to do them.So how is that resolved,It has to be a case where they will be financially better off working than claiming benefits.
As long as foreign workers will do the jobs for ridiculously low wages and benefits are higher than that,How can the problem ever be solved.
Next problem is caused by too many children.Some of the people who work for us here In America are doing 2 and 3 jobs.Not because we pay atrocious wages but because many of them are coping with absent fathers who do not pay for their children.
So they at least are trying to work their way out of the poverty trap.But that then leads to the very contentious issue of multiple  kids by multiple dads.One woman who works for us has 6 kids by 6 different men. No matter what way you look at it.there is something wrong there.

Should contraceptives be handed out free,I think so,should they be given out at school and if so what age.?But if that were to happen,my guess is the far right wing would say how disgraceful it was.Yet most of those people would also say how disgraceful 6 kids to 6 men was.
So it becomes a lose lose situation.

People are going to have sex and they are going to have it underage.I know about that.You will never ever stop it.So surely the one solution is to make contraception available at clinics, free no questions asked.In the long term that is going to be massively cheaper than a whole host of pregnancies.

We can argue the rights and wrongs of under age sex till the cows come home,but we are never going to stop it.That I will absolutely guarantee.
Plus the age of consent varies enormously across the world.Who says which country has got it right.
I hate that my son has had underage sex and in no way condone it.It is not how I have brought him up,but equally I would hate a child to be the result.
We simply cannot have it all ways,no unwanted children, adding continually to the growing poverty population,but no contraception either.

So what do we do,lock up every kid until they are old enough to support a kid and then let them go.Because as said before we are never going to stop kids having sex.
I never ever thought my son,from his Christian,privileged background would,but he did.
So we have to be realistic,educate kids in a modern way about sex,provide clinics for them to get contraception anonymously.By so doing the birth rate would drop considerably,particularly in the poorer sectors.So right way we are reducing some of the poverty.How often do the patterns of parents repeat in their kids.Mom has several kids so do their kids ad infinitum.
We then need to make employment more profitable than state handouts,Work has to be made attractive,so that people learn the work ethic again,and take a sense of pride in a job well done.
I am not just spouting airy fairy rubbish here.We took on a reformed addict as our produce guy.He was in his 50's and had been on benefit.I worked with him for several days.Even little things like how much better the apples looked when they were given a quick polish,Trim down all the corn etc etc.

He is now completely in charge of produce and it always looks wonderful.When I go in he always comes to get me to show me new things he has done.
This is a man who had a serious habit,was living on handouts and crime,For the last year he has worked, and paid taxes,and really takes pride in his work,
He now rents a little house.What a difference.But we were willing to give him a try.He started off on a smaller wage,but was told that if he improved produce sales,looked after it well and always turned into work,we would promote him to produce manager and raise his pay.

He is more proud of the manager title than the raise.Never mind there is only him and one young kid.He has developed a real pride.He can now contribute financially to his ex wife and kids,so they are better off as well.

So not so different from the poor in Africa who used the charity money to get water to their land for irrigation,and now have pride in their work.
People the world over really are not that different.

I will not say it always works.One ex alcoholic we employed was a disaster,never turned in after a binge and robbed us blind.But each small success story is just that,a success.

For whatever reason we have reached a situation with a lot of people where crime and handouts are more attractive than work.The situation has Been created in the 1st place therefore logically it should be possible to reverse it.

We do not make a much money as the previous owner as we pay all employees fully on the books.Some have stayed,others left as it meant they would have to pay more in child support.
So there is another problem,greedy employers looking to take more money.Leading to men not supporting all the kids they have fathered,leading to the women getting handouts and also turning to petty crime.There are so many parts to the jig saw.But I firmly believe adequate sex education,free contraception,and less employment of some illegals for next to nothing would go some way to easing the problem.
O.k some employers would make less money,but ultimately we all pay the price in the end,via escalating crime and increased benefit claimants.
Goodness I have prattled on, but it really is a particular bugbear of mine.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #282 on: May 10, 2008, 02:43:22 pm »
what does this notation have to do with anything regarding my post?  ??? (or the price of eggs in montana?)

I referred directly to JW's makes sense/bizarre back and forth that was simply undecipherable.

If you, injest, are taking pause to criticize broketrash, who I assume you mean, what is he making up? Or are his words simply just those not in everyday vocabulary? Big difference, yes?

Kaiser, I know that it is no surprise to you that dictionaries are very useful. But, sadly it would appear that some others have not been taught that lesson. More the pity, and a continued poor reflection of the public school system as it has continued to deteriorate. I was taught that when all else fails, go buy a "Webster's Unabridged" and actually develop an interest in using it. But then that type of initiative and self-starting is not a part of the stage instructions at a "pity party", a whining fest is so much more on script -  isn't it?

And isn't whining yet another red herring tactic to avoid discussing the need to radical change in the welfare system? 

Offline Lynne

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #283 on: May 10, 2008, 03:13:41 pm »
Not a very subtle personal attack, Broketrash.  Would you edit your post, please?
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #284 on: May 10, 2008, 03:23:36 pm »
I grew up in what I think of as lower middle-class conditions. Nothing like third-world poverty, certainly.  Looking back, I think the cause was two-fold.  First, both of my parents came from very poor beginnings and left school when they were 13 or 14.  Their parents did not stress education and their help was needed on the farm.  Second, my parents divorced and their incomes were split.

For whatever reason, my mother was adamant that her children get an education.  She crusaded for programs for gifted children so we would be challenged in school.

So from my personal perspective, solutions to poverty lie in helping parents and children to achieve educational or technical school goals.  Another large question is how to keep fathers engaged in the family.

Suggestions?
"Laß sein. Laß sein."

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #285 on: May 10, 2008, 03:38:04 pm »
I just ran across a mention of this book. It sounds fascinating, and very germane to our discussion here:

Quote
Unequal Childhoods: Class, Race, and Family Life
by Annette Lareau

From Publishers Weekly
This accessible ethnographic study offers valuable insights into contemporary family life in poor, working class and middle class American households. Lareau, an assistant sociology professor at the University of California, shadowed 12 diverse families for about a month, aiming for "intensive 'naturalistic' observation" of parenting habits and family culture. In detailed case studies, she tells of an affluent suburban family exhausted by jaunts to soccer practice, and of a welfare mother's attempt to sell her furniture to fund a trip to Florida with her AIDS-stricken daughter. She also shows kids of all classes just goofing around. Parenting methods, Lareau argues, vary by class more than by race. In working class and poor households, she says, parents don't bother to reason with whiny offspring and children are expected to find their own recreation rather than relying upon their families to chauffeur them around to lessons and activities. According to Lareau, working class and poor children accept financial limits, seldom talk back, experience far less sibling rivalry and are noticeably free of a sense of entitlement. Middle class children, on the other hand, become adept at ensuring that their selfish needs are met by others and are conversant in social mores such as shaking hands, looking people in the eye and cooperating with others. Both methods of child rearing have advantages and disadvantages, she says: middle class kids may be better prepared for success at school, but they're also likely to be more stressed; and working class and poor kids may have closer family ties, but sometimes miss participating in extracurricular activities. This is a careful and interesting investigation of life in "the land of opportunity" and the "land of inequality."
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.

Product Description

Class does make a difference in the lives and futures of American children. Drawing on in-depth observations of black and white middle-class, working-class, and poor families, Unequal Childhoods explores this fact, offering a picture of childhood today. Here are the frenetic families managing their children's hectic schedules of "leisure" activities; and here are families with plenty of time but little economic security. Lareau shows how middle-class parents, whether black or white, engage in a process of "concerted cultivation" designed to draw out children's talents and skills, while working-class and poor families rely on "the accomplishment of natural growth," in which a child's development unfolds spontaneously--as long as basic comfort, food, and shelter are provided. Each of these approaches to childrearing brings its own benefits and its own drawbacks. In identifying and analyzing differences between the two, Lareau demonstrates the power, and limits, of social class in shaping the lives of America's children.

From the Inside Flap
"Less than one in five Americans think 'race, gender, religion or social class are very important for getting ahead in life,' Annette Lareau tells us in her carefully researched and clearly written new book. But as she brilliantly shows, everything from looking authority figures in the eye when you shake their hands to spending long periods in a shared space and squabbling with siblings is related to social class. This is one of the most penetrating works I have read on a topic that only grows in importance as the class gap in America widens."--Arlie Russell Hochschild, author of The Time Bind and The Commercialization of Intimate Life

"Sociology at its best. In this major study, Lareau provides the tools to make sense of the frenzied middle-class obsession with their offspring's extracurricular activities; the similarities between black and white professionals; and the paths on which poor and working class kids are put by their circumstances. This book will help generations of students understand that organized soccer and pick-up basketball have everything to do with the inequality of life chances."--Michele Lamont, author of The Dignity of Working Men: Morality and the Boundaries of Race, Class, and Immigration

"With rich storytelling and insightful detail, Lareau takes us inside the family lives of poor, middle-class, and affluent Americans and reminds us that class matters. Unequal Childhoods thoughtfully demonstrates that class differences in cultural resources, played out in the daily routines of parenting, can have a powerful impact on children's chances for climbing the class ladder and achieving the American dream. This provocative and often disturbing book will shape debates on the U.S. class system for decades to come."--Sharon Hays, author of Flat Broke with Children


About the Author
Annette Lareau is Professor in the Department of Sociology at the University of Maryland, College Park. She is the author of Home Advantage: Social Class and Parental Intervention in Elementary Education (1989; second edition, 2000) and coeditor of Journeys through Ethnography: Realistic Accounts of Fieldwork (1996).




Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #286 on: May 10, 2008, 03:38:24 pm »
Now that just wasn't nice, Broketrash.  I call myself a "moderate" Democrat for the reason that I can see sensible points in the arguments on both sides.  I do think that Republicans tend to look at issues from the top down (the big picture) and Democrats from the bottom up (individual level).  Neither is wrong.  Every issue has both aspects.  Is there a better term than "moderate" to describe someone who can see merit in both viewpoints?  People tend to become more polarized in their arguments when defending one side or another of a topic in a debate.  I try to avoid this and keep an open mind.  And I think that if Obama didn't court people on the Right by being centrist he would be unelectable.  He is just being realistic.  First he has to win before he can have any impact.



the term "moderate" has meaning only in the circumstances which you listed, you see valuable ideas both left and right of center. my point,  is that many on the left, who do NOT find any value at all in the ideas of the political right, call themselves moderate in order to deceptively market themselves to the voters, who on the whole are like you, in the center.

my verbiage was not at all intended as a swipe at true moderates in either party or moderate independents. There are still some moderates left in both parties, but probably most moderates do not identify with either party, and tend to think of themselves as independents, or they are increasingly not voting at all.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #287 on: May 10, 2008, 03:47:29 pm »
Not a very subtle personal attack, Broketrash.  Would you edit your post, please?

Kaiser, I know that it is no surprise to you that dictionaries are very useful. But, sadly it would appear that some others have not been taught that lesson. More the pity, and a continued poor reflection of the public school system as it has continued to deteriorate. I was taught that when all else fails, go buy a "Webster's Unabridged" and actually develop an interest in using it. But then that type of initiative and self-starting is not a part of the stage instructions at a "pity party", a whining fest is so much more on script -  isn't it?

And isn't whining yet another red herring tactic to avoid discussing the need to radical change in the welfare system?   



if the references to Nazi death camps made earlier is not a personal attack, then this post above is even further from that definition of what constitutes a personal attack. of course I will not delete this post.

cheers.

Offline Lynne

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #288 on: May 10, 2008, 03:51:01 pm »
My apologies, broketrash.  I can't see quoted posts on my blackberry.

It is the post that infers Jess is illiterate that I find offensive - herrkaiser?
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Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #289 on: May 10, 2008, 03:52:24 pm »
If we have certain shared social values that most people agree on, why don't we teach them as part of public education?  We certainly teach enough other crap.

It would seem to me that there would be very little disagreement in the idea that fathers are important to their children's lives and if you help create a child you have a certain responsibility to him/her.  But this isn't formally taught anywhere.  Why not? It would seem to me, the younger the better.

I can remember listening to Superman on the radio (yes, before TV), and they used to have public announcements by the regular announcer, or Superman himself, advocating things like social equality.

I don't believe it's true that our society has no shared values anymore.  I believe we've become more sophisticated and refined the ones we had, but they still need to be defined and taught.  And you can't really do it once, and stop, each generation needs to know them.

I don't see us doing that anymore.  You're more likely to hear about global warming than you are the basics of life itself.