Author Topic: I know we've talked about this before, but  (Read 26652 times)

Offline Ellemeno

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I know we've talked about this before, but
« on: May 07, 2008, 03:53:36 pm »
How can a smart person have put SIX major drugs into his system? 

This is a piece I get really stuck on.  Any words of insight?  Or commiseration?

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2008, 04:47:04 pm »
How can a smart person have put SIX major drugs into his system? 

This is a piece I get really stuck on.  Any words of insight?  Or commiseration?

I don't know Elle, but I know it happens, look at Anna Nicole.

Perhaps he accidentally took too much of one and it had not completely left his system, and if he had jet lag, he could have been easily confused. It could have slippery slope, one drug building on the others.
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline opinionista

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2008, 04:51:29 pm »
How can a smart person have put SIX major drugs into his system? 

This is a piece I get really stuck on.  Any words of insight?  Or commiseration?

It has nothing to do with being smart. If Heath suffered from accute insmonia, like the press said, it's not surprising he took desperate measures. He wasn't careful which doesn't mean he wasn't smart. 
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline Fran

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2008, 06:42:12 pm »
How can a smart person have put SIX major drugs into his system? 

This is a piece I get really stuck on.  Any words of insight?  Or commiseration?

Oh, Elle....

...because he was human -- it's as simple as that. Human beings make mistakes and don't always use their best judgment.  Unfortunately, in this case, the mistake had a tragic result.

Elle, I don't think you'll ever be able to fully understand the "why" of it.  I tend to think of it as a whole convergence of things that occurred with a horrible consequence.  I know that the "if onlys" can easily drive me crazy:  if only someone had been with him that night, if only he had been able to fall asleep naturally, if only he was deeply involved in a relationship, if only he had stayed in London, if only he had never visited the doctors who wrote the prescriptions....  I think I'm finally at a place where I can accept what I cannot change.  Not that it makes it any easier, but at least my frustration over trying to figure out the "why" of it is gone.

Hopefully, you'll get to that place, too.   

Offline MilAn

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2008, 07:28:33 pm »
I think he should have gotten proper help for his depressions. I read that a consequence of depressions is anxiety and insomnia omong others. If he wasn't able to help himself, I hope someone else tried at least. We can't know! It's sad that his family didn't live in the same counrty as Heath. A good support system can be very helpful!

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2008, 11:49:48 pm »
frustration...I know with these dang allergies and bad sinuses..after two dang months I just get DESPERATE for some relief. I know I have taken more than I am supposed to...and closer together than I should...I have just been lucky.


Offline RouxB

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2008, 11:52:14 pm »
Having 6 different drugs in his system doesn't mean he sat down and took 6 different drugs all at once. What we don't know - and never will- what the concentration was of each, how long they had been in his system or when he took them. 

When people take medication-prescription and over the counter- and it isn't working, they frequently up the dose thinking it that will do the trick and simply underestimate the consequences or they keep trying something different hoping that will work. I suffer from migraines and I assure you I have taken aspirin in larger doses and more frequent intervals than recommended.

The bottom line, though, is that the how and why does not in any way impact my feeling about him. He is magnificent no matter.

 :-*


 

Heathen

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2008, 12:35:36 am »



      I will say first off..... Well I consider myself a smart person.  But I have been prescribed a lot of different medicines by several different doctor, for differing things.  I have some that i take regularly, and
some that i take only occasionally..
      I was given a prescription by mistake and it was fine and dandy
with my everyday group of meds.  But I had reason to take a muscle
relaxant one day..and when I took the two of them together, it was
nearly a lethal dose of meds.  I was knocked out in a matter of a minute..I was lucky to be woken up by my grandaughter.. If she hadnt gotten hold of me i might have been a goner. 
       So it is like the perfect storm.  When some of the bad things
all come together, and make the fatal thing happen...

   The ignorance is in not being told everything when you have the medicines prescribed... Those little dont drive or operate machinery tags are not nearly sufficient to inform
people of what can happen.



     Beautiful mind

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2008, 01:57:41 am »
Oh Elle.

(((Elle)))

The one insight I gained from this whole disaster is that meds stay a lot longer in your system than I would have thought possible. I honestly didn't know that they can stay in your system over days and build up on another.

Wanna know my personal theory on what happened to Heath (and it's not more than that)? I think he changed to different meds after his return to the US. Maybe one day still taking what he had taken in London, the next day switching to another set of meds, hoping they would work better and not knowing that what he had taken the day before was still in his system and that the stuff could add up.

Still, it leaves the question why he took that stuff at all. Insomnia? Well, it happens to a lot of people, and I wouldn't interpret anything into it, if it were the only pills he had taken. Painkillers? Maybe the cold/supposed walking pneumonia he's said to have had at that point.
But anti-anxiety drugs? And the combination of those three types of meds? I'm sorry, but that doesn't speak of a person who is in synch with themselve. And that's one of the saddest things in this whole horrible story.

 :'(

Offline serious crayons

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2008, 10:30:31 am »
A couple of other possibilities.

I myself, when taking prescriptions meds, especially painkillers, have occasionally forgotten when I took the last dose. So maybe he just lost track.

And it's possible that he felt depressed enough that his attitude became careless. Not like he was trying to hurt himself, but more like he just didn't care enough to pay attention.


Offline Artiste

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2008, 10:43:57 am »
How come a smart person sells dope for criminals ?

Can that be asked too ??

Hugs!

Offline optom3

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2008, 11:10:17 am »
A couple of other possibilities.

I myself, when taking prescriptions meds, especially painkillers, have occasionally forgotten when I took the last dose. So maybe he just lost track.

And it's possible that he felt depressed enough that his attitude became careless. Not like he was trying to hurt himself, but more like he just didn't care enough to pay attention.



I agree,it is all too easy to just take too many or a bad combination.Sometimes when I have had a migraine on top of the bi polar and insomnia on top.I just carry on taking meds.The problem is some of the depression meds actually fog your brain so much,you literally blank out and forget all the other meds you have taken.So you take something else.you become more groggy but you are not actually aware of how befuddled you are.
You are depressed in pain and desperate for sleep.
I have now reached the stage wher I literally write down what I have taken and what time.It is the only way I know I can be safe,if I am having a really bad day.
I have mixed so much in the past I think I have been incredibly lucky that I am still here.
The other problem is that the exhaustion also makes you groggy.
If I am having a diabolical day then my husband takes my meds and gives them to me at approprate intervals,so there can be no risk of me taking too much.
It really all does become a vicious cycle.
I would consider myself a reasonably intelligent woman,I have 2 masters and of of them is actually in bio/clinical chemistry.So I know exactly what different drugs do.Despite this I have come pretty close to taking way too many.That is why I keep a record now.
Heath probably had too many different drugs in his system.It literally can be just one extra pill,depending on the half life of everything else.It does not even need to be a lot of pills just a combination which are still present in your system due to longer half lifes,and that 1 extra tips the balance.As I said before soem of them befuddle your brain so even the brightest human loses track of what they have taken.
I hate thinking about it,but it has made me significantly more careful of what I take  so bless him,he is stiil doing good even now.

Offline Artiste

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2008, 02:03:46 pm »
Merci optom !

You say:
    it has made me significantly more careful of what I take...       
....

Optom:
may I say that I am happy that you are wise in being careful in taking medication !!

Maybe we can all replace pain with happiness and hugs !!  ??



Somehow? May I say, wish and hope... and find ways to do so !!  I always wish that for myself, and may I wish it be so for you too and others.

You have a Midas Touch which will make you seek ways to be helpful and happy !! I am so glad that you  make me happy! Tu es comme cette rose, si belle... de pensées et de coeur !!

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline BelAir

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2008, 10:32:24 pm »
How can a smart person have put SIX major drugs into his system? 

This is a piece I get really stuck on.  Any words of insight?  Or commiseration?

I don't visit this particular forum very much (some sort of denial/compartmentalization/coping strategy all rolled into one), but I was having this same somewhat similar thought today...  (like, "how?  how on earth did it happen? !!!)

 :-\
"— a thirst for life, for love, and for truth..."

Offline BelAir

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2008, 10:38:44 pm »
Oh Elle.

(((Elle)))

The one insight I gained from this whole disaster is that meds stay a lot longer in your system than I would have thought possible. I honestly didn't know that they can stay in your system over days and build up on another.

Wanna know my personal theory on what happened to Heath (and it's not more than that)? I think he changed to different meds after his return to the US. Maybe one day still taking what he had taken in London, the next day switching to another set of meds, hoping they would work better and not knowing that what he had taken the day before was still in his system and that the stuff could add up.

Still, it leaves the question why he took that stuff at all. Insomnia? Well, it happens to a lot of people, and I wouldn't interpret anything into it, if it were the only pills he had taken. Painkillers? Maybe the cold/supposed walking pneumonia he's said to have had at that point.
But anti-anxiety drugs? And the combination of those three types of meds? I'm sorry, but that doesn't speak of a person who is in synch with themselve. And that's one of the saddest things in this whole horrible story.

 :'(

fwiw, I know lot's of "normal" (or as close to normal as you can be in this day and age) people who take anti-anxiety medications.  Not to sound dumb, but maybe it's a cultural thing.  you complain to your doctor about a particular emotional problem and lickety split you get an ant-anxiety medication?  sort of like an antibiotic...  (definitely not condoning it, but I think it's perhaps more "normal" in some cultures/areas than others...)

i guess what I am trying to say is that I don't necessarily think it means he wasn't in synch with himself.

your theory, chrissi, about switching drugs upon his arrival to the U.S. is interesting, and actually, quite logical, imo.  thanks.
"— a thirst for life, for love, and for truth..."

Offline BelAir

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2008, 10:45:05 pm »
ps - so I guess I am feeling right now that it happened because shit happens.  good things happen, bad things happen, so goes the circle of life....

and I guess I will be eternally sad that this shitty thing happened to him...

(I am not sad, about my eternal sadness, just sort of acknowledging it... thanks for listening...)
"— a thirst for life, for love, and for truth..."

Offline ednbarby

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2008, 10:29:26 am »
I know several people who take all of the same drugs regularly, just like him.  I know because they all told me at some point shortly thereafter that they are taking the same things and were really freaked out by what happened to him.

I honestly believe that my mother truly died of an accidental overdose.  Her death was ruled as heart failure, but without an autopsy or toxicology study, we'll never really know.  I do know that she was cremated shortly after she died, which was her wish.  Then, a few days later, when we were packing up her things, we found a whole grocery bag full of prescription medications, and all recently prescribed by the same doctor and from the same pharmacy.  Among them were two different types of painkillers (Soma and something else), Valium, an MAOI-type anti-depressant, and an antibiotic because she had chronic bronchitis.

We thought about going after the doctor for negligence, but we had no way of proving that that was what caused her death, and she was not the least bit forthcoming with her medical records.  We even had a doctor friend write a letter to the AMA asking them to require her to cough them up.  She still never did.  (Or they didn't even bother to make her - they protect their own.)

In any event, it's just one of those things that just happens.  Doesn't matter how smart you are or how much you want to live.  I had talked to my mother what turns out to be, we think, the night she died.  She told me she felt awful, hadn't been sleeping, and just couldn't seem to get better from her current bout with bronchitis.  I told her to please go to the doctor on Monday (this was Saturday), and that if she really felt bad the next day, to go to the ER (there weren't those walk-in clinics so much in 1992).  She said she would.

When you feel like hell and you can't sleep, and then you haven't slept right for a while and so your mind is not your own, it's easy to forget when you took the last one or to just take another because the one you know you took an hour ago just ain't doing the job.

What makes me the saddest about both my Mom and Heath was that they were alone when they died.  The fact that they were alone, really, is why they died.  I was in Ohio and my Mom was in New York.  I was worried about her, but not worried enough to call my brothers who lived in the same town as she and ask them to make sure she got to a doctor and was OK.  Of course I've always regretted that.  But hindsight is 20-20.  I knew she was sick and felt awful, but I didn't know she had all those different drugs and was probably taking them all.
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2008, 02:06:05 pm »
{{{{{Barb}}}}} and {{{{{Barb's mom}}}}}

That is so sad.  The whole pharmacological world is so complex, the good substances can do, and the bad; the clarity and the confusion.



Offline ednbarby

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2008, 07:45:03 pm »
{{{{{Barb}}}}} and {{{{{Barb's mom}}}}}

That is so sad.  The whole pharmacological world is so complex, the good substances can do, and the bad; the clarity and the confusion.

Thanks, Elle.

There is nothing fair in this world, and there is nothing safe in this world.  (Forgive me for borrowing that one from you, Billy Idol.)  Even the cleverest and biggest-hearted among us can fall down sometimes.
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Offline louisev

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2008, 09:04:36 pm »
The biggest problem with these new prescription drugs that are being prescribed so widely is that some of them are extremely slow to clear your system (sometimes days) and they do have alarming combined effects.  In fact, there are some drugs which, while they are supposed to be relaxant or narcotic in action, when combined with alcohol become stimulants.  Some of the most common drugs (i.e. prozac, ambien, zoloft) doctors don't really know a lot about them, or their side effects.  They are actually rather exotic in how they affect the body.  One of the reasons why I doggedly maintain an attachment to the one arthritis drug I take is because because its risks and side effects are very well known, and the only long term side effect from it is possibly impaired kidney function, monitorable with blood tests.  I avoid narcotics at all cost, because they are infamous for combining with other drugs to create toxicity.

The lethal effects of drugs that cause accidental overdoses is not new - it is just that there are so many drugs now, and so much of a culture of prescription in the medical community, that death is becoming more common.  I saw one article that came out not too long after Heath's death saying that one health authority estimated the number of accidental overdose fatalities in the US last year alone was 10,000.  Now THAT - is criminal.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2008, 10:30:45 pm »
May I recommend that it is a very comforting thing to know CPR. I took a day-long class in it shortly after Heath's death and I'm glad I did.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline optom3

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2008, 11:54:27 pm »
A couple of things I have noticed since moving here, is there is no cross checking.If I went to see a specialist In England, he would write to my family doctor to advise him of my treatment and any meds. he was going to prescribe.The family doctor then knows exactly what I am on.So I saw an orthopaedic specialist for shoulder and back problems,  saw a gynaecologist and also, a gastroenterologist.I know I sound like a wreck.!!!!
Some of the arthritis meds gave me gastric probs etc etc.
The point  is my family doctor had copies  from all the specialists involved so it is like a double check system.
Here I could go from one walk-in clinic to another, one specialist to another,collecting meds as I went.There is no cross referencing. Even back in England I still double checked myself,dose, half life interactions etc.
To further confuse the issue, some of the drugs have different names here and in England,so acetaminophen is paracetamol in England.

The whole system here needs to be more tightly controlled.I  am surprised there are not more overdoses. Just today, I went to see my family doctor for some more pain meds.He asked me if I needed any more Valium.I could easily have said yes.I told him no as the psychiatrist had prescribed it for me and I was actually in the process of reducing down the dose.
In England that could not happen, as the psychiatrist would have informed the family doctor what he was prescribing. So no chance of doubling up.

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2008, 12:12:50 am »
Quote
To further confuse the issue, some of the drugs have different names here and in England,so acetaminophen is paracetamol in England.

Oh, my gosh...  When I read that, the "why" bell in my mind just went DingDingDing!  Plus the fact he'd just flown in from overseas, where he may have taken different meds that could have stayed in his system through 1/22. 

That makes so much sense. 


(I don't imagine we'll ever know for sure, but those insights seem very logical to me.)

Offline optom3

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2008, 10:13:12 am »
Oh, my gosh...  When I read that, the "why" bell in my mind just went DingDingDing!  Plus the fact he'd just flown in from overseas, where he may have taken different meds that could have stayed in his system through 1/22. 

That makes so much sense. 


(I don't imagine we'll ever know for sure, but those insights seem very logical to me.)

The paracetamol/acetominophen  one is really dangerous. It does not take many to kill you, in fact as few as 12. It is a horrible death as well.However I digress, I could easily have been taking both for eg a bad head ache not knowing it was the same drug.
That whole thing needs looking at. So many Brits and europeans come to Florida in the summer for Disney etc. Even our family doctor here, who I like, did not know, of the different names thing.
The other point is, if you are allergic to one medicine, which is called by a different name,what then ??????
I am very allergic to Voltarol called Cataflam here. It is an anti inflamatory.
In many cases even the generic names are different never mind all the drug companies different names for the same thing.
Actually the more I think about it, the more I think something needs to be done at a much higher level.
Also as said Patients here, as in England should have one main family physician who knows all the meds from all the different specialists people migt be seeing. That shoule be a fundamental requirement before prescribing anything.

Offline louisev

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2008, 11:42:43 am »
actually acetaminophen is the compound name.  Paracetamol is a brand name, and is the equivalent to Tylenol, which is the most common brand name for acetaminophen in the USA.  In addition, Paracetamol gets compounded with codeine to produce other Paracetamol brands, just as they compound it with codeine in the US to produce Tylenol 3, which is acetaminophen with 8 grams of codeine.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline MaineWriter

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2008, 01:29:27 pm »
actually acetaminophen is the compound name.  Paracetamol is a brand name, and is the equivalent to Tylenol, which is the most common brand name for acetaminophen in the USA.  In addition, Paracetamol gets compounded with codeine to produce other Paracetamol brands, just as they compound it with codeine in the US to produce Tylenol 3, which is acetaminophen with 8 grams of codeine.

Louise....not 8 grams.

One Tylenol 3 tablet has 300 mg acetaminophen, 15 mg caffeine, and 30 mg codeine phosphate.

30 mg codeine = 0.03 gms (grams)

Even if you are thinking of the old-fashioned measurement system of grains, 30 mg is equal to 0.5 (1/2) grain. No where near 8.

L
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2008, 10:38:39 pm »
Tell you what.  The sister of one of my coworkers swallowed a bunch of pills about 10 years ago - sedatives, painkillers (she'd been prescribed) and Tylenol.  She was transported to the hospital (because she herself callled 911).  They pumped her stomach.  Did whatever it was they had to do to get the sedatives and painkillers out of her system.  But it was the Tylenol - acetominaphen - that they could not clear.  Her liver shut down because of it, and everything else followed.

He told me that about five years ago, and to this day, I swear by Motrin.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2008, 11:04:01 pm »
Frankly, these legal drugs can kill you. I never take Tylenol, aspirin, or any of them.
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Offline louisev

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2008, 11:08:36 pm »
Louise....not 8 grams.

One Tylenol 3 tablet has 300 mg acetaminophen, 15 mg caffeine, and 30 mg codeine phosphate.

30 mg codeine = 0.03 gms (grams)

Even if you are thinking of the old-fashioned measurement system of grains, 30 mg is equal to 0.5 (1/2) grain. No where near 8.

L

I definitely did not mean grams!  I thought it was 8 mg.

Okay - just looked it up - acetominophen with codeine, OTC in Canada, can contain UP TO 8 mg.  Anything over 8 mg has to be by prescription.  That is where I got the figure!  Thank goodness for Google!
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Mandy21

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2008, 11:15:05 am »
When I lived in Belfast for a year, I was quite shocked at the small sizes of OTC medicine, such as the paracetomol Fiona was mentioning above.  I was also told by my fiance who I was living with, that you could only buy so much of it during any one transaction at the store.  For instance, if you needed paracetomol, you had to buy it like 20 at a time.  You couldn't buy 3 x 20 at one time at the checkout counter.  So I guess you'd have to go in the store, buy 20, take them to your car, go back in the store, buy 20 more, etc., etc.  When he came to America, and saw bottles of Tylenol on the shelves, with like 250 tablets in one bottle, he was blown away.  I remember one Christmas, that's what I took over to give him as a present, so he wouldn't be bothered with continuously buying such small amounts.  He probably still has that giant bottle to this day.  Guess their rationing policy was done as a means to keep people from choosing to overdose, or overdosing accidentally.  But I saw it as being wrong for consumer's rights.  Stuff's always cheaper when you buy in bulk.  Why not be given the choice?
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Offline optom3

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2008, 09:33:47 am »
Tell you what.  The sister of one of my coworkers swallowed a bunch of pills about 10 years ago - sedatives, painkillers (she'd been prescribed) and Tylenol.  She was transported to the hospital (because she herself callled 911).  They pumped her stomach.  Did whatever it was they had to do to get the sedatives and painkillers out of her system.  But it was the Tylenol - acetominaphen - that they could not clear.  Her liver shut down because of it, and everything else followed.

He told me that about five years ago, and to this day, I swear by Motrin.


You are so right about the Paracetamol/actetominophen thing. It is easily available and probably one of the most dangerous meds. around.I really did see a young girl die after taking less than 20. I will never forget it to this day. She had an argument with her boyfriend and thought it would bring him back. She left to many hours to call the hospital and although felt fine the next day, she was not allowed home, which she could not understand.
She went into liver and complete organ failure litle by little over the next 2 weeks. It really does still haunt me to this day.There is only one antidote to this particular drug.
and it is only effective up to about 10 hours maximum after the overdose.I used to work a s a clinical chemist before doing optometry and, with every overdose you had to regualrly check the blood levels.
That girl just haunts me. I remember her sobbing saying she only meant to frighten her boyfriend.She was 2 years younger than me at the time.

Offline Katie77

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2008, 09:45:55 am »
Optum, how terrible to witness such a tragedy of that young girl.

Something i am curious about, in America and England, can you still buy these products in bottles?

Here in Australia, all pain killers, and most other tablet medications,  and all prescription tablets are in bubble packs, where you have to push the tablet thru the foil to get it. Each tablet is in its individual bubble

I think the main reason this was introduced was so, it was more difficult to get a handful of tablets to take at one time, albeit, not impossible, but it takes a bit more time to push each individual tablet thru its bubble, as opposed to just emptying a handful of tablets in ones hand to gulp down.

I have noticed in movies and TV shows from America, they still seem to have these tablets loose in jars or bottles.
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Offline optom3

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2008, 09:54:48 am »
actually acetaminophen is the compound name.  Paracetamol is a brand name, and is the equivalent to Tylenol, which is the most common brand name for acetaminophen in the USA.  In addition, Paracetamol gets compounded with codeine to produce other Paracetamol brands, just as they compound it with codeine in the US to produce Tylenol 3, which is acetaminophen with 8 grams of codeine.

The actual full generic name for it is para acetyly aminophenol.I the U.K that is shortened to paracetamol, in the states to acetaminophen.

So both countries take different parts of the full generic name. It is then branded as hundreds of different things and combined with various opiate derivatives and caffeine, even aspirin.
The real problem I have is that paracetamol and acetaminophen are the same thing.I spent years as a clinical chemist before becomming an optometrist and had no idea when we moved here that the 2 drugs were the same.
I could very easily have overdosed without knowing. Even when I went to my doctor,and showed him the Rx meds. I was on back in the U.K, something called solpadol. which is paracetamol/codeine phosphate 500/15 he had no idea what it was.
It was only when I went delving into it all that I realised the way 2 countries have taken different letters from the  generic compound to give an OTC medicine a name.
I think that is incredibly dangerous given the number of U.K visitors to the states and vice versa.By all means rebrand with watever name you want, but the generic should always be the same.
I know I get on my high horse about this, but once you have seen one paracetamol/acetaminophen overdose, you never ever want to see another.Nearly all are accidental, or cries for help, the patient then usually lives long enough to find out that they are going to die.Horrendous beyond words.

Offline optom3

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2008, 12:31:56 pm »
Optum, how terrible to witness such a tragedy of that young girl.

Something i am curious about, in America and England, can you still buy these products in bottles?

Here in Australia, all pain killers, and most other tablet medications,  and all prescription tablets are in bubble packs, where you have to push the tablet thru the foil to get it. Each tablet is in its individual bubble

I think the main reason this was introduced was so, it was more difficult to get a handful of tablets to take at one time, albeit, not impossible, but it takes a bit more time to push each individual tablet thru its bubble, as opposed to just emptying a handful of tablets in ones hand to gulp down.

I have noticed in movies and TV shows from America, they still seem to have these tablets loose in jars or bottles.

It is a 50/50 split in the U.K. They limit how many you could buy at any one time, but at most chemists/pharmacies, you can just ask for the meds.I regularly, when in the U.K would  ask for a box of 100 co-codamol which is paracetamol and codeine phosphate combined.Slightly lower dose of the codeine component than you would get from a doctor.
They came in soluble form in a large box.The girl behind the counter would signal to the pharmacist, who would look me over and O.K it. So I guess the answer is it is very easy to get  enough to kill yourself.
I could quite simply have then walked down to the next chemist and repeated the whole thing.In the small town where I had my practice there were 7 chemists that I could easily walk to.So 700 tablets of co- codamol.

Offline Mandy21

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2008, 06:06:49 pm »
Fiona, please forgive me for having brought up a painful memory for you.  I've read a great deal of your posts these last few months, but I'd completely forgotten that you had to go through that memory, or I would have kept my damned mouth shut with my post about how hard it is to get OTC medicine in Britain.

My only point was, and I've never considered suicide, so how would I really know -- it just seems to me that if someone wants to kill themselves with drugs, they'll find a way, no matter how many bubble-wrapped dividers come between them and the almighty.

From the second I watched the newscast where they came across and said, just casually, out of the blue, that Heath Ledger was found dead blah-blah-blah, like it was barely even noteworthy, and I dropped my dinner glass, and said Jesus God No and sat there in my dead daddy's chair, in front of my poor sick 79-year-old mother, without speaking, or barely breathing, for an uncountable amount of time -----  from the second I watched that, never then, and never since, and never now, would it have ever occurred to me that Heath would knowingly take himself out of this world.

It's just not possible for anyone to even think such a thing, of Heath.

It was a tragic accident, in his case.  Nothing more, nothing less.

That's all I was saying.  Please forgive me, Fiona.  Thank you.
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Offline optom3

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2008, 01:02:45 am »
Fiona, please forgive me for having brought up a painful memory for you.  I've read a great deal of your posts these last few months, but I'd completely forgotten that you had to go through that memory, or I would have kept my damned mouth shut with my post about how hard it is to get OTC medicine in Britain.

My only point was, and I've never considered suicide, so how would I really know -- it just seems to me that if someone wants to kill themselves with drugs, they'll find a way, no matter how many bubble-wrapped dividers come between them and the almighty.

From the second I watched the newscast where they came across and said, just casually, out of the blue, that Heath Ledger was found dead blah-blah-blah, like it was barely even noteworthy, and I dropped my dinner glass, and said Jesus God No and sat there in my dead daddy's chair, in front of my poor sick 79-year-old mother, without speaking, or barely breathing, for an uncountable amount of time -----  from the second I watched that, never then, and never since, and never now, would it have ever occurred to me that Heath would knowingly take himself out of this world.

It's just not possible for anyone to even think such a thing, of Heath.

It was a tragic accident, in his case.  Nothing more, nothing less.

That's all I was saying.  Please forgive me, Fiona.  Thank you.

You are so lovely, there is nothing to forgive.
In fact I think the more people know and are made aware of the risk with some seemingly harmless OTC meds. the better.
I find it insane that there is not in this century a universal drug code.So no matter the country, the generic at least has the same name everywhere. I also find it odd when so much information is held on us, why is there not a universal pharmacy list.
At very least each country should have their own list.How mad is it, that here in arguably the most developed country, people can go from one doctor or walk in clinic to the next.Then collect prescriptions as they go and get them made up at different pharmacies !!!!!
Wallgreens have never asked or checked with me, if I get other medications anywhere else.I do. Some are cheaper at Wallgreens and some at Wallmart.Fortunately,at least my psychiatrist knows everything I am on, including PK's that he did not prescribe. I do find it all very haphazard and now having lived her for a couple of years,can see how easy accidental overdoses are.
It would be interesting to compare figures with other countries, where much more cross checking an referencing are done.
You however to re track, have nothing to be sorry about.I find the more I post about things,the easier they are to deal with.Holding it all in has never been good for me.
So if I look at it that way, you have done me a favour!!!

Offline Katie77

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2008, 04:35:19 am »
From the second I watched the newscast where they came across and said, just casually, out of the blue, that Heath Ledger was found dead blah-blah-blah, like it was barely even noteworthy, and I dropped my dinner glass, and said Jesus God No and sat there in my dead daddy's chair, in front of my poor sick 79-year-old mother, without speaking, or barely breathing, for an uncountable amount of time -----  from the second I watched that, never then, and never since, and never now, would it have ever occurred to me that Heath would knowingly take himself out of this world.



Mandy, I am speechless after reading that paragraph in your last post.  Reading your words, brought that day back to the very second that I too first heard the news about Heath, and once again, it has left me absolutely breathless, and so dam sad, and yes, exactly the same thoughts went thru my mind, no dam way would he have done that on purpose, no dam way. Yes, maybe he was careless, maybe he was confused about how many meds he could take or had taken, but never never suicidal.

And I dont think any of us will ever forget that moment that you so aptly described in your post.
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Offline optom3

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2008, 09:12:40 am »
Mandy, I am speechless after reading that paragraph in your last post.  Reading your words, brought that day back to the very second that I too first heard the news about Heath, and once again, it has left me absolutely breathless, and so dam sad, and yes, exactly the same thoughts went thru my mind, no dam way would he have done that on purpose, no dam way. Yes, maybe he was careless, maybe he was confused about how many meds he could take or had taken, but never never suicidal.

And I dont think any of us will ever forget that moment that you so aptly described in your post.

I kept thinking it was a mistake and any minute, they would announce that he was not conscious but, the paramedics had started him breathing, and he was on his way to hospital.
Later when I read that he wa still alive when his housekeeper went into replace  a bulb.I kept thinking, why didn't you go in again, did his breathing not seem odd.Over and over I had thee thoughts.I could not and still not get it out of my head that he died while she was inthe house.
I know it is irrational.

Offline Mandy21

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2008, 09:37:52 am »
Thank you for your kind words, Fiona and Sue.  I certainly didn't mean to make anybody speechless :o

Reading my words back, though, gave me chills.  Geez, I gotta be more careful how I say things.

I think the only thing that snapped me out of my shock and horror and stupor during those eternal moments was my mom sitting next to me, aged 79, saying "oh that's a shame, i'm sure michelle and matilda will miss him". 

I didn't even know my mother knew who Heath Ledger was, and the newscaster didn't say anything at all about his family or relationships.

You just gotta love old folks and their addiction to The National Enquirer, don'tcha?

I actually laughed, at my mom, for a brief second, before the dinner tray went by the wayside, and I curled up in a ball and the tears came rolling, as I said "yeah, mom, i'm sure they will...."
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2008, 08:29:55 am »
Heath sure aged a lot in his last very few months, didn't he?

Offline Mandy21

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2008, 11:42:05 am »
I'm not sure he "aged" so much, per se, as he seemed to have lost a lot of weight, and as such, his cheeks became kind of sunken.  Plus I think he was just very, very tired, and overworked, and sad about losing time with his daughter while he had to be on location, and I do believe that playing the role of the sinister, dark Joker *did* take some toll on him as well.  I can't imagine how it wouldn't.  In some of the last photos taken of him, he certainly did not appear to be a 28-year-young man, that's for sure.  I agree with you in that his appearance had definitely gone downhill since last autumn.  He was no longer the lanky, but solid, strong man we remember from the BBM days.  I had just presumed he'd be around forever, and we'd have to get used to watching these physical transformations throughout his long life and career.

I presumed wrong...
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2008, 11:52:44 am »
What I find most striking is the change in his demeanor. Photos from his younger days show a smiling, bouyant, carefree man. In more recent photos, he looks haggard, weary, grim. I won't bother posting the images because I know we're all familiar with them. It's possible that he was posing a bit in the younger ones, but he looks very genuine, even in ... (what's that word? I'm blanking out on the word for "unposed" photographs) ... paparazzi shots. And the difference in later pictures -- even ones taken before he and Michelle broke up, actually -- is so stark. He goes from looking like he's on top of the world to looking like he's carrying the world on his shoulders.




Offline Mandy21

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2008, 01:07:59 pm »
Hey Katherine, think you're looking for the word "candid".  I agree with all you said.  Perhaps it should be obvious to all of us that he felt like he "had the world on his shoulders" at that point in his life.  Just makes me sad to think of him that way.  Do you think, had he lived, he would have recovered and gone back to being the carefree, young, strong Heath we first fell in love with?  I like to think that he and Michelle would have gotten back together, and they'd have married and raised Matilda and had (oh, this gives me goosebumps to say out loud) a son someday that looked just like our darling Heath.  That's what I like to think would have happened, had he lived all the years he deserved to.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2008, 01:15:00 pm »
What I find most striking is the change in his demeanor. Photos from his younger days show a smiling, bouyant, carefree man. In more recent photos, he looks haggard, weary, grim. I won't bother posting the images because I know we're all familiar with them. It's possible that he was posing a bit in the younger ones, but he looks very genuine, even in ... (what's that word? I'm blanking out on the word for "unposed" photographs) ... paparazzi shots. And the difference in later pictures -- even ones taken before he and Michelle broke up, actually -- is so stark. He goes from looking like he's on top of the world to looking like he's carrying the world on his shoulders.




Well, I think it's hard to deny that something was seriously wrong or amiss during his last weeks or months.  Something unpleasant (and we'll probably never know what) was causing him to buy and stock up on a large number of powerful prescription drugs.  To even be in possession of so many at once (let alone take them at once) seems to indicate that he was possibly pretty desparately searching for something to help him with something.  There are lots of blanks here because there's so much we don't know.  But, we do know the cause of his death, which is unusual and hard for many folks to fathom.  It's also possible that some of the answers to the open questions and blanks are things we really don't want to know or think about.

This is where our "space between what we know and what we try to believe" comes in to this situation.  


Hey Katherine, think you're looking for the word "candid".  I agree with all you said.  Perhaps it should be obvious to all of us that he felt like he "had the world on his shoulders" at that point in his life.  Just makes me sad to think of him that way.  Do you think, had he lived, he would have recovered and gone back to being the carefree, young, strong Heath we first fell in love with?  I like to think that he and Michelle would have gotten back together, and they'd have married and raised Matilda and had (oh, this gives me goosebumps to say out loud) a son someday that looked just like our darling Heath.  That's what I like to think would have happened, had he lived all the years he deserved to.

I think we also don't know enough about the relationship between Michelle and Heath to speculate whether or not the idea of them getting back together would even be a good idea.  I've always found is sort of odd that Michelle has been treated almost like the "widow" following Heath's death.  But, they weren't even together.  I have no idea if they were a good match for one another or not.  Heath had lots of ex-girlfriends.  And, just because he had a child with Michelle doesn't mean that the specific relationship with Michelle was the right relationship for him or for her.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline optom3

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2008, 01:18:15 pm »
Re reading and listening to some of the things other actors have said about him at that time,it seems he really was completely besotted with Matilda.
It would appear he never lost an opportunity to either talk about her or pass photos around.
I can only guess how incredibly hard it must have been for him to be parted from her, particularly at Xmas. I can think of no parent who does not want their child around on Xmas day.

Leading up to the holiday season, he certainly was looking more haggard,but then I suspect he was tired and depressed.Fame never seemed to rest easy on his shoulders.He was also incredibly analytical about his performances.Always feeling he could have done better. Had he been around longer,he may well have ended up more behind the camera than in front of it.

It was I think his personality type to have bouts of endless energy, but also times of depression.He certainly always seemed happier and more at ease when he was with "real" friends or a girlfriend.They seemed to give him the support neatwork he needed to cope with the paparazzi and endless rounds of promotional interviews. I do not think Heath was very good at being on his own.

He may well have dabbled in some recreational drug use, but then that seems to be pretty standard, for the world he moved in, particularly after he became single again.When he was with Michelle and Matilda I suspect he managed for the most part to remain more grounded. His attire may have been not to everyones taste, but he still looked well and happy.

I truly believe he was a genius and not many who have that word applied to them, are happy within their own skin.The pursuit of excellence can involve plunging down to the depths of your soul, and finding some very dark places.Surely that is why he tried to alternate lighter movies, with more challenging ones.The phrase tortured genius, is very much grounded in fact.

The other inescapable fact, is that when you are famous, there are always going to be "friends"/hangers on, who will proffer all sorts of recreational substances, in an attempt to curry favour.Heath needed real friends, not false air kissing ones.

Whatever the truth of the matter is,the inescapable and desperately, gut wrenching fact,is we were deprived of him, far too soon.

What gave him too us ,may have ultimately destroyed him.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2008, 02:01:44 pm »
I think we also don't know enough about the relationship between Michelle and Heath to speculate whether or not the idea of them getting back together would even be a good idea.  I've always found is sort of odd that Michelle has been treated almost like the "widow" following Heath's death.  But, they weren't even together.

True, who knows what their relationship was at that point. But Michelle did act widowlike, so she may have felt like one. If nothing else, it would be devastating to lose your child's other parent.


Offline LauraGigs

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2008, 02:10:37 pm »
I think you guys both have great points, Amanda and Fiona.

Quote from: optom3
It was I think his personality type to have bouts of endless energy . . .
The flip side being that they find it so hard to relax and sleep. Sometimes it takes a competent, caring dr. or psy. to find a proper exercise and/or drug regimen. If that person is left to experiment the results can be disastrous, as we know. I also read that Heath was having a lot of back/joint pain (from cumulative falls and stunts many actors do). This will age you all by itself, and meds for this must also be managed well.

Quote from: Mandy
Do you think, had he lived, he would have recovered and gone back to being the carefree, young, strong Heath we first fell in love with?  I like to think that he and Michelle would have gotten back together . . .

Hmm, I kind of have problems with that scenario too.  I think Heath (to put it very simplistically) was entering into a more middle-aged phase: taking on more responsibility (directorial work, investments in restaurants & art colonies, etc.), parenting, and simply maturing — with all the emotional upheavals that can entail. 
If he had survived the winter and pulled through emotionally, the "carefree, young, strong Heath" probably never would truly have returned.  And I think we all need to remember that it was (at least in part) a manufactured image to make the real, cerebral Heath more marketable.  (And by all accounts, he and Michelle were having problems for a while before Matilda was born, and stuck together for her sake. It basically may have been an on-set romance that was prolonged by parenthood, however committed each of them was to Matilda.)


Quote from: atz75
It's also possible that some of the answers to the open questions and blanks are things we really don't want to know or think about.
This is where our "space between what we know and what we try to believe" comes in to this situation. 
Absolutely.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2008, 02:34:04 pm »
Well, I think it's hard to deny that something was seriously wrong or amiss during his last weeks or months.  Something unpleasant (and we'll probably never know what) was causing him to buy and stock up on a large number of powerful prescription drugs.  To even be in possession of so many at once (let alone take them at once) seems to indicate that he was possibly pretty desparately searching for something to help him with something.  There are lots of blanks here because there's so much we don't know.  But, we do know the cause of his death, which is unusual and hard for many folks to fathom.  It's also possible that some of the answers to the open questions and blanks are things we really don't want to know or think about.


For me, you said it best because you phrased it the most cautious, almost vague. Something went terribly wrong and not only on Jan 22, but a while before that date. That's all we know, the rest is only blanks.



Quote
This is where our "space between what we know and what we try to believe" comes in to this situation.  

Coincidentally, we had exactly this sentence as TOTW that week in January.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2008, 07:36:46 pm »
True, who knows what their relationship was at that point. But Michelle did act widowlike, so she may have felt like one. If nothing else, it would be devastating to lose your child's other parent.




Yes, I certainly understand that Michelle must continue to mourn Heath very profoundly.  And, I'm sure that him being the father of her daughter is one of the major factors in that.

But, they were never even engaged.  And, they had broken up a fair amount of time prior to Heath's death.  In terms of the way the media played it, it still seemed/ seems odd to put her in the role of grieving widow.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2008, 08:33:07 pm »
Atz, are you sure that as you say:
          they were never even engaged                        ?

May I ask ?

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Offline Katie77

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2008, 08:44:15 pm »
There is no doubt the separation from Matilda would have been the hardest thing that Heath ever had to deal with.

I remember when my son and his wife first separated, and my son went into a deep grief about not having his kids on a day to day basis, missing out from sharing the ordinary day to day things that a lot of us take for granted. It is like a death to come to terms with, and it takes a long time to get used to. But, unlike a death, you have to get on with your job, and everything else, others dont know that you are mourning so much and so you are quite alone and have to bear it by yourself.

Most of Micehelle's grief would have been for the loss to Matilda, that she would not have her father. Whether she was engaged or married to Heath, they still shared a child, and still must have shared some wonderful times and plans with each other. And even though they were separated, her world too, was devastated by his death.

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Offline Mandy21

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2008, 12:38:39 am »
Thank you, Sue, that was the only thing I was trying to say, although I guess I didn't do it very well.  When two people share a child, and those people loved each other, maybe still love each other -- one wants them to stay together.  I was simply saying that in my fantasies that will never come true, obviously, that I wish Heath and Michelle and Matilda, and whatever came after, could live happily ever after.  I wish life were that easy.  Never said that it would be the best thing we imagine Michelle or Heath would ever want.  Never said that for a second.  I only said I WISHed that it were true.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 12:09:37 pm by Mandy21 »
Dawn is coming,
Open your eyes...

Offline optom3

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2008, 10:47:15 am »
Thank you, Sue, that was the only thing I was trying to say, although I guess I didn't do it very well.  When two people share a child, and those people loved each other, maybe still love each other -- one wants them to stay together.  I was simply saying that in my fantasies that will never come true, obviously, that I wish Heath and Michelle and Matilda, and whatever came after, could life happily ever after.  I wish life were that easy.  Never said that it would be the best thing we imagine Michelle or Heath would ever want.  Never said that for a second.  I only said I WISHed that it were true.


I could be very wrong, but some of the things I read make me feel that they both still loved each other.There was never any public slanging match after their separation,no tale telling,just a dignified silence.It may well have been one of those relationships where you can't live with the person,but can't live without them either.I also suspect much as I "love" Heath that he may not have been the easiest person to live with.All that energy and not being able to switch off, can be exhausting to the partner.
Looking at pictures of them together, before the split,they plainly adored each other.It was not a just for the cameras thing.
He was always staring at her, holding her hand,and vice versa.Heath I am sure would throw himself into a romance and love affair, as fully as he immersed himself in his roles.He showed no indication of doing anything in a halfhearted way.Every time he spoke of BBM he always said the best thing about it wa the 2 lovely girls he got.

Whatever latterly went on behind closed doors, we will never know, and we have no right to know.I always hoped before January, that they would find their way back to each other.It never seemed to me, like a fully closed door.That could just be the romantic side of me of course. I  took solace from the fact that neither of them resorted to publically disparaging  the other.Which in turn made me feel that maybe after a period of separation they would reunite. I particularly hoped it would happen, because Michelle seemed to be able to keep Heath on a much more even keel.He seemed more grounded when he was with her.

All of this is mere conjecture of course, but it is a scenario, that used to make me feel happy,and as it harms no one I am going to stick with it.

Offline Mandy21

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2008, 12:17:24 pm »
All of this is mere conjecture of course, but it is a scenario, that used to make me feel happy,and as it harms no one I am going to stick with it.

Thanks, Fiona.  That's all I was trying to say, but you said it much better.   :)
Dawn is coming,
Open your eyes...

Offline optom3

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Re: I know we've talked about this before, but
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2008, 02:40:25 pm »
Thanks, Fiona.  That's all I was trying to say, but you said it much better.   :)

Friend you're very welcome.Pity that the rest is my normal verbose rambling, still it keeps me happy and out of mishief!!!