Author Topic: Barack Obama vs. John McCain  (Read 58741 times)

Offline David In Indy

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Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« on: May 08, 2008, 04:45:54 pm »
Please don't vote for who you would LIKE to see win the Presidential election, but rather who you honestly THINK will win the election in November 2008.

_____________________________________________________________________

Personally, as much as I hope and wish Barack Obama wins the presidency in November, I think John McCain will be our next president. One of the things that makes me nervous about Barack Obama being the Democratic nominee (and I voted for Obama last Tuesday) is many of the conservative, rural Democrats who supported Hillary Clinton during the primaries, will switch to Republican and vote for John McCain this fall.

What do you think?
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Offline louisev

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2008, 05:11:24 pm »
whoever gets nominated for the Democrats wins.  McCain's platform of Bush's 3rd term will win over exactly that 28% who believe Bush is doing a good job.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2008, 01:21:25 am »
I voted McCain. I think there is just too much for the Republicans to make hay with there for Barack to win.

Offline Nevermore

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2008, 04:40:18 am »
I agree.
There's this thinking out there that Barack Obama somehow spoiled Hillary Clinton's run for the Presidency, but when I actually poll (informally of course) registered Democrats why they voted for one or the other, there are two quite distinctive schools of thought--it's not down to a coin toss between two worthy candidates as the media supposes. It wasn't Obama that presented Sen. Clinton's biggest obstacle, it was the unlikely emergence of Sen. McCain as the Republican contender--who would have thought it?
Obama appeals to the idealists, Clinton appeals to the pragamatists. Clinton did so well among older women not because they're women but because they're older, and therefore remember other "breaths of fresh air," McGovern, Carter, Gary Hart, Ross Perot, and yes, the current president. Obama supporters have further alienated these independent-to-center-leaning voters by implying that racism must of course be at the heart of their reasoning, when in actuality, the attitude could be summed up as their impression of Sen. Obama was that he was only 46 years old, a junior senator, and simply not ready for prime time.
I've been to an Obama rally and I've been to a charsimatic revival, and found the atmosphere in both places similar.  Someone here keeps comparing it to "drinking the Koolaid."
Well, not everyone has drunk of the Koolaid. Come November, when it's time to mop up the mess left over from the outgoing administration, I think most voters will decide to hand over the job to a seasoned veteran rather than an untested rookie.   It's the same type of thinking that informed the choice of Clinton over Obama--assuming he ends up the Democratic nominee, Clinton voters will shift their support to the other seasoned veteran. It really is as simple as that.

Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2008, 11:55:04 pm »
I do not think Bush is doing a good job at all nor do I really like McCain at all, but the thing is that I do not like Obama at all. In fact I find him to be quite scary. I have no idea what this man is into and the idea of finding that out makes him even scarier. I am not a conservative Democrat at all; however, I have been a Democrat all my life and if Obama gets the nomination this will be the first time I vote for a Republican. And the fact that not liking Obama somehow makes me a racist as some suggest even makes me madder. I am not and never have been a racist. My dislike of Obama has nothing to do with his color. It has to do with him. I would never vote for someone with an attitude like his regardless of what color he or she was. I am not even in love with Hillary since she has her own problems, but her problems are far less in my mind than Obama's. I really do not think there is a good choice among the candidates, but I certainly would vote for her over the others.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2008, 12:01:30 am »
I do not think Bush is doing a good job at all nor do I really like McCain at all, but the thing is that I do not like Obama at all. In fact I find him to be quite scary. I have no idea what this man is into and the idea of finding that out makes him even scarier. I am not a conservative Democrat at all; however, I have been a Democrat all my life and if Obama gets the nomination this will be the first time I vote for a Republican. And the fact that not liking Obama somehow makes me a racist as some suggest even makes me madder. I am not and never have been a racist. My dislike of Obama has nothing to do with his color. It has to do with him. I would never vote for someone with an attitude like his regardless of what color he or she was. I am not even in love with Hillary since she has her own problems, but her problems are far less in my mind than Obama's. I really do not think there is a good choice among the candidates, but I certainly would vote for her over the others.

That is often the problem, isn't it Jack? NONE of the candidates are very good, and we must simply try to vote in the person who will do us the least harm. It's really pitiful, but it's the truth.

I'm very nervous about this next election. Because no matter how you slice or dice it, I think we'll probably have yet another 4 years of misery. I wish JUST FOR ONCE we could have an HONEST president. But I don't think it's possible.

Let's just hope whomever is voted into office this November will do a better job than George Shrub.
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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2008, 12:17:57 am »
I do not think Bush is doing a good job at all nor do I really like McCain at all, but the thing is that I do not like Obama at all. In fact I find him to be quite scary. I have no idea what this man is into and the idea of finding that out makes him even scarier. I am not a conservative Democrat at all; however, I have been a Democrat all my life and if Obama gets the nomination this will be the first time I vote for a Republican. And the fact that not liking Obama somehow makes me a racist as some suggest even makes me madder. I am not and never have been a racist. My dislike of Obama has nothing to do with his color. It has to do with him. I would never vote for someone with an attitude like his regardless of what color he or she was. I am not even in love with Hillary since she has her own problems, but her problems are far less in my mind than Obama's. I really do not think there is a good choice among the candidates, but I certainly would vote for her over the others.

Yes, he is too much of an unknown quality...I don't like it.

And I know that there are websites out there that have more info on him...but it is HIS job to get me to vote for him and so far I am not convinced...

Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2008, 12:20:13 am »
That is often the problem, isn't it Jack? NONE of the candidates are very good, and we must simply try to vote in the person who will do us the least harm. It's really pitiful, but it's the truth.

I'm very nervous about this next election. Because no matter how you slice or dice it, I think we'll probably have yet another 4 years of misery. I wish JUST FOR ONCE we could have an HONEST president. But I don't think it's possible.

Let's just hope whomever is voted into office this November will do a better job than George Shrub.

I'm glad we are in agreement about our choices since I truly am not impressed at all from what we have to choose from. I truly hated to comment in a way about this since I consider you to be one of my closest friends on the forums. That bothered me since your friendship is much more important. I never want something as bad as politics to hurt my friendship with anyone. And yes you are right it is hard to believe anyone could be worse the George W. Bush. He has just about destroyed this country and has taken so many lives through death and through injury. It is truly a shame.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2008, 12:49:43 am »
Clearly, I'm a Hillary supporter and I would love to see her win the nomination.  Realistically though it's looking more and more like Obama will get it.  If Obama is the Democratic nominee, I'll happily vote for him in the general election against McCain.  And, I think Obama can win against him, but I do think Obama will have a harder time than Hillary would.  I say this based on the states that Hillary has won vs. Obama.  Yes, technically he has more delegates, but he's won so many of his states/delegates in places where he (and any Democrat) clearly won't win in the general election.  Also, I think Hillary has so much experience dealing with negative attacks from Republicans for most of her public life... that I think she could wage a fierce campaign against McCain.   

I think a McCain presidency would be way, way to similar to a Bush presidency... especially since McCain seems to have grooming himself to become (or at least to appear) more right wing than he seems to have been in the past.  And, it's not at all a strategy that appeals to me and I am very much against McCain's war policy.

My ideal would still be Hillary and Obama as a single ticket.  And, I think it really should be Hillary as president and Obama as V.P., which would position him well to run again for president down the line when he's more tested/experienced.




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Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2008, 02:28:29 am »
I agree Amanda that it should be Hillary as President and Obama as VP. I can handle that, but I cannot handle it the other way. I will not vote for the ticket the other way. I know what you mean about McCain and the war. That is where I am against him the most, but I wonder what Obama would really do about that. Again, I find Obama to be very scary. It is very unclear to me where this man stands on anything. He knows how to make speeches and look good for the cameras, but where does he really stand? The media loves him, the democrats love him, Ted Kennedy loves him, but I don't. I have tried to look at him in a positive light, but I just don't see the positive in him at all. I definitely would be one of those strong, lifetime democrats that will vote for McCain if Obama is put in as the nomination. He scares the hell out of me!!! This country is already in bad shape and I'm really scared to think what will happen if someone like him gets that amount of power.

Offline Kd5000

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2008, 08:54:22 am »
I agree with DaveinIndy's line of thinking at the moment at least.  Of course, it will be interesting to see how McCain and Obama fare in the debates. Of course, the Republicans have so much baggage as it is, the war being at the top.  What will the economy be like in November? What will the price of gas be like in November?

I don't know what the future of gay rights movement is if we get another Republican in office. Will the movement just fade away?? The movement got re energized when Clinton got elected. Remember when Clinton invited Ellen and her partner to the White House.  There were so many many breakthroughs.

With McCain,  ENDA won't stand a change of being enacted. Gays will still be kicked out of the military. I don't expect any "out" gays to be appointed to positions of visibility in a Republican administration.  More of the status quo.

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2008, 09:57:18 am »
Even more likely, the right to privacy - the right to chose an abortion - is likely to be overturned. Do you really need even more 'conservatives' on your supreme court?

Apparently there are already enough conservative judges on your supreme court to overturn Wade vs Roe. This IS more than about whether or not Obama has enough experience as a leader or who his preacher was. This is an important election. Though I can't imagine folks not putting two and two together and figuring out that the war against Iraq is a significant contributing factor in the failing economy. And McSame has promissed to steer the course in the Middle East.
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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2008, 10:35:11 am »
Even more likely, the right to privacy - the right to chose an abortion - is likely to be overturned. Do you really need even more 'conservatives' on your supreme court?

Apparently there are already enough conservative judges on your supreme court to overturn Wade vs Roe. This IS more than about whether or not Obama has enough experience as a leader or who his preacher was. This is an important election. Though I can't imagine folks not putting two and two together and figuring out that the war against Iraq is a significant contributing factor in the failing economy. And McSame has promissed to steer the course in the Middle East.

well there is also the consideration though Roland that if he is in fact very religious....then  we know how they are....and we would definitely have problems...I wouldn't want someone that fundamental in the        White house..

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2008, 11:32:59 am »
People can be religious without it becomng their politics too. Not everyone's like the U.S. has been (these last numbr of years), or Arab nations. Not every country is a theocracy ... even the States didn't use to be - once.
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Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2008, 11:42:00 am »
Even more likely, the right to privacy - the right to chose an abortion - is likely to be overturned. Do you really need even more 'conservatives' on your supreme court?

Apparently there are already enough conservative judges on your supreme court to overturn Wade vs Roe. This IS more than about whether or not Obama has enough experience as a leader or who his preacher was. This is an important election. Though I can't imagine folks not putting two and two together and figuring out that the war against Iraq is a significant contributing factor in the failing economy. And McSame has promissed to steer the course in the Middle East.

I have exactly the same reservations about McCain.

I have never seen this country so heavily in debt and having an economy propped up by the willingness of its citizens to go into personal debt, while at the same time our business leaders are so willing to put them out of work.   We are the closest to the very brink that I have ever seen us and our only allegiances seem to be to power and money.

I don't know that our country can survive four more years of the same.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2008, 09:59:54 pm »
Anyone looking for a Clinton/Obama ticket is hoping against hope, I fear.

I could be wrong, but -- seems like a pipe dream.

Anyone have an idea about who might become J. McCain's running mate?
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2008, 03:14:24 am »
Anyone looking for a Clinton/Obama ticket is hoping against hope, I fear.

I could be wrong, but -- seems like a pipe dream.

Anyone have an idea about who might become J. McCain's running mate?


What about an Obama/Clinton ticket Shasta? What do you think about that? Is it possible?

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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2008, 03:15:49 am »
And Hillary Clinton scares me. She's a Republican in sheep's clothing, I think.

She keeps flip flopping on the issues at hand, and I don't like it at all. >:(
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2008, 03:19:29 am »
Anyone looking for a Clinton/Obama ticket is hoping against hope, I fear.

I could be wrong, but -- seems like a pipe dream.

Anyone have an idea about who might become J. McCain's running mate?



John McCain's running mate? Mitt Romney.

Just wait and see if I'm not correct.
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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2008, 03:21:47 am »

John McCain's running mate? Mitt Romney.

Just wait and see if I'm not correct.

yuck

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2008, 03:24:20 am »
yuck


I hear ya Jess. :P

I hear you. >:(
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Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2008, 03:46:14 am »
At this point in time with them already proclaiming Obama as the nomination and Ted Kennedy as his mentor telling him who to pick for the VP I think I am just about sick of it all. I do think it is kind of funny Obama talking about being different but then jumping under Kennedy's wing who is more Democrat Establishment than anyone could ever get. Obama's nose is stuck so far up in the air and McCain's jowls are flapping so much that I am thinking about just forgetting about the whole thing. I must say though that I have never seen a political candidate as arrogant as Obama. I have to wonder how anyone can think they are as special as he thinks he is. How can anyone think he is for anyone other than himself? I guess it is good to love yourself as much as he loves himself  :laugh:

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2008, 03:57:20 am »
At this point in time with them already proclaiming Obama as the nomination and Ted Kennedy as his mentor telling him who to pick for the VP I think I am just about sick of it all. I do think it is kind of funny Obama talking about being different but then jumping under Kennedy's wing who is more Democrat Establishment than anyone could ever get. Obama's nose is stuck so far up in the air and McCain's jowls are flapping so much that I am thinking about just forgetting about the whole thing. I must say though that I have never seen a political candidate as arrogant as Obama. I have to wonder how anyone can think they are as special as he thinks he is. How can anyone think he is for anyone other than himself? I guess it is good to love yourself as much as he loves himself  :laugh:

did you see his "GQ" strut on the plane the other day? OY!!

Offline Kd5000

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2008, 04:28:11 am »
Back to the Kennedys and Obama. I've heard they are backing Obama because they don't want the Clintons to be another dynasty in the making. The Kennedys want to be the ONLY "family/dynasty" in the Democratic party.  They don't want any upstarts. I figured something was up as I thought Teddy got along well with Hill and Bill.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2008, 08:53:27 am »
What about an Obama/Clinton ticket Shasta? What do you think about that? Is it possible?



There were 2 people on MSNBC this morning talking about that. One was for it and said that would ensure Obama's election and position Hillary for 2016. The other said no -- that they were too opposite. She thinks Hillary should campaign for Obama, but not run with him.

I just don't see them running together. They are both (seemingly) egoists.

Mitt Romney? Really? Hmmmm....not sure about how I'd like that.

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2008, 10:28:18 am »
"In politics we presume that everyone who knows how to get votes knows how to administer a city or a state. When we are ill... we do not ask for the handsomest physician, or the most eloquent one. "
— Plato

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2008, 04:15:18 pm »
4 words -- Nixon/Kennedy -- televised debates.
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2008, 06:13:49 pm »
Well, I'm hoping for Hillary.  :)

But I voted that I think McCain will win. That is based on experience of 4 years ago, when I, along with most Western Europeans, could hardly begin to believe the US election result. That's when I realized I don't understand the majority of Americans and their voting at all.


Offline Kd5000

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2008, 09:17:15 pm »
First of all I'm a Democrat.

However, Romney as a VP would have pluses and minuses.  He is very telegenic.  He's also convinced some of the most right wing pundits such as Anne Coulter that he's a true blue conservative. Many Republicans are not too thrilled with McCain.  However, Romney is a Mormon and he's NOT from a swing state. His being on the ticket might help the GOP in Michigan,  but where else. Many evangelicals, a major base for the GOP, aren't too fond of the Mormon Church.

A Democrat VP candidate would ideally be a popular politician from a swing state. Anybody fits that profile in populous Ohio or Florida?

Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2008, 03:23:36 pm »
What I still cannot understand is how the Democrats think that Obama would beat McCain in November. If you look at the states Obama has won almost every one of them is a solid red state where McCain will win. Sure the Democrats might have voted for Obama, but these states have a lot more people who will vote Republican. Obama will not be able to swing those votes. There are some that Hillary would definitely stand a chance in such as Florida, Arkansas, possibly even Texas, and possibly others. There is potential there, but that potential does not hold true for Obama. Also Obama is extremely weak in some of the big traditional blue, Democrat strongholds such as New York, California, Pennsylvania and several others. These may be the states that will end up voting Republican. If that is the case Obama has a good chance of loosing in a major landslide. And that is why I have a hard time understanding why the Democrats are pushing Obama as they are. The numbers for a national election are just not there. Of course, the Democrats have a history of going with the person least likely to win for some reason.

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2008, 06:41:43 pm »
also remember how he did in the last debate. If he cant' handle Clinton he surely is not going to be able to handle McCain.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2008, 11:26:29 pm »

Hooray for Hillary tonight! 8)

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2008, 11:29:01 pm »
What I still cannot understand is how the Democrats think that Obama would beat McCain in November. If you look at the states Obama has won almost every one of them is a solid red state where McCain will win. Sure the Democrats might have voted for Obama, but these states have a lot more people who will vote Republican. Obama will not be able to swing those votes. There are some that Hillary would definitely stand a chance in such as Florida, Arkansas, possibly even Texas, and possibly others. There is potential there, but that potential does not hold true for Obama. Also Obama is extremely weak in some of the big traditional blue, Democrat strongholds such as New York, California, Pennsylvania and several others. These may be the states that will end up voting Republican. If that is the case Obama has a good chance of loosing in a major landslide. And that is why I have a hard time understanding why the Democrats are pushing Obama as they are. The numbers for a national election are just not there. Of course, the Democrats have a history of going with the person least likely to win for some reason.

This is how I feel about the situation too in terms of really taking a hard look at possible scenarios and outcomes for the general election.

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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2008, 12:22:38 am »
Hooray for Hillary tonight! 8)



She's expected to win Puerto Rico too, Amanda.

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Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2008, 01:01:44 pm »
And all they can talk about, the news media, is the idea that it is major news that John Edwards is backing Obama. I don't consider it any news at all except that Edwards is wanting to run for vice president again  :laugh: Who cares who Edwards is backing. The news media will do all they can to make anything Hillary does seem like nothing. And now they are saying that anyone who backs Hillary is poor and uneducated. The states that voted for Hillary are considered the stupid states. On the news last night they showed a little map showing the "stupid" states of Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia, Pennyslvania, and New York. Hey that's a lot of votes in the national election to be throwing away. I also heard on the news that California and Texas are considered "stupid" states by the Obama campaign. Of course, those are two other states where Hillary won by a big margin. That's some smart strategy to be saying this about the two largest states (CA and NY) in the nation.

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2008, 05:39:29 pm »
And all they can talk about, the news media, is the idea that it is major news that John Edwards is backing Obama. I don't consider it any news at all except that Edwards is wanting to run for vice president again  :laugh: Who cares who Edwards is backing. The news media will do all they can to make anything Hillary does seem like nothing. And now they are saying that anyone who backs Hillary is poor and uneducated. The states that voted for Hillary are considered the stupid states. On the news last night they showed a little map showing the "stupid" states of Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia, Pennyslvania, and New York. Hey that's a lot of votes in the national election to be throwing away. I also heard on the news that California and Texas are considered "stupid" states by the Obama campaign. Of course, those are two other states where Hillary won by a big margin. That's some smart strategy to be saying this about the two largest states (CA and NY) in the nation.

I'm not sure who you mean by "they are saying", but think! Who is this kinda talk going to help the most? the republicans or Obama? Now I ask again, who is the "they (that is) are saying" this crap about stupid states?

The message has to stay on what's really important - the economy and how that's been affected (among other things) by the illegal war in Iraq. "They" are going to try and change the story (wedge issues - gay marriages, for example) over and over again in the next 6 months. Can the American people stay on message?

Here's the latest 'wedge' issue (that really is just trying to intoduce yet another ridiculous nugget)

http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080515/NATION/437214374/1002
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2008, 08:31:54 pm »
If the war were really illegal it would have been stopped by now. The legislature deems what is legal and illegal. Isn't that correct? And even if the president vetoes the legislature -- they can override a veto.

If Senator Clinton, John McCain, or any other political figure in the spotlight called a member of the press "sweetie" -- that would certainly make the news. I doubt it would be a huge deal then or now -- the next thing will come along and replace it. It really isn't an issue.
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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2008, 09:53:41 pm »
The problem with the logic (concerning the legality of the war) is that it is self serving. Americans may not (yet) see this war as illegal but that doesn't make it so. History will decide. In the meantime, if you want a barometer of what the world (you know, we who aren't allowed to vote next November) thinks about whether this was a legal war or not, just look at the respect level the american government (nation and people) has been able to garner in the past 6 years.

Have you seen Keith Olbermann's little nugget dated May14th with regards to 'Why this war was started?'

&hl=en ("I was told by people that they had weapons of mass destruction ...")

As for the sweetie comment - I'm glad it won't 'stick', but I think the 'stupid states' comment's gonna affect some votes.
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Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2008, 07:52:14 am »
I don't think that the "sweetie" thing is that big of a deal, but Shasta is right that if Clinton or McCain would have said it we would have a national debate. Now as far as the "stupid states" comments go that will and should affect votes.

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2008, 08:53:35 am »
Still don't know who talked about 'stupid states'. Was it the media? And if so, why should that matter? Why "will and should affect votes." Who's it going to hurt? The Dems. Sounds to me like it's the Republican Media that's likely responsible for the comment & they are the ones that should be taken to task for the comment. Like any Rush pronoucement, it's a comment that needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
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Offline optom3

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2008, 12:21:45 pm »
Still don't know who talked about 'stupid states'. Was it the media? And if so, why should that matter? Why "will and should affect votes." Who's it going to hurt? The Dems. Sounds to me like it's the Republican Media that's likely responsible for the comment & they are the ones that should be taken to task for the comment. Like any Rush pronoucement, it's a comment that needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

I can't vote as I am here on a Visa.
It strikes me that much as in the next election in England,you will end up having the pick of a bad bunch.It always scares me when you wind up voting for the least " bad" candidate,rather than a good one.
It is a bit like, who will damage the country,its economy, etc least.

Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2008, 12:51:11 pm »
I can't vote as I am here on a Visa.
It strikes me that much as in the next election in England,you will end up having the pick of a bad bunch.It always scares me when you wind up voting for the least " bad" candidate,rather than a good one.
It is a bit like, who will damage the country,its economy, etc least.

Unfortunately that is usually the case. You have to vote for the least "bad" candidate or just not bother to vote. Although many would disagree with me the only candidate that has run in my lifetime who I would refer to as a "good" candidate was Bill Clinton. The others have been all about who is worse. I am always thinking "could they not have found someone better to run for president out of all the people in the United States than these people?" As I have said before I am in no way in love with Hillary. I just find her to be the least scary and possibly a much better president than these other two. However, the media and the Democrats chose to destroy her from the beginning. My choice this year appears to be either to not vote or vote for McCain. I would not vote for Obama if I were dead. He is by far the scariest candidate that has ever run during my lifetime. Voting for McCain would only be a vote against Obama and it may be worth it. I sure am not for the war and that is my real problem with McCain. However, I hate to even think what would happen if Obama did get elected. I seriously doubt that will happen, but if it did........yeah that is SCARY!!!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2008, 01:06:03 pm »

I don't understand what you find so 'scary' about Obama.

My reaction is exactly the reverse of yours.  While I don't think McCain is the scariest candidate to ever run... I think he's significantly more scary than Obama.


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Offline Lynne

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2008, 01:23:21 pm »
Yes, Jack.  I am interested too in what you find scary about Obama.  So far, I find him energetic and intelligent, which is a refreshing change of pace from the status quo.
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2008, 08:47:14 pm »
Can't speak for Jack (I read back, and he gives reasons for feeling that way about Senator Obama, tho.), but I think a lot of people feel like America is at a crisis point in several ways, and maybe Senator Obama's lack of experience at running a city, state, much less a country -- is a little scary.

IMO--he seems to be disdainful toward patriotism. I really like patriots.

He also seems pretty full of himself, but that can be said for most politicians. I don't see a lot of humility--could have missed that. Haven't watched the campaigns much lately.

I checked Snopes for the downlow on the quotes from his book that are pretty racist-sounding, and it says that they are still investigating. So I don't know about that yet.
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2008, 09:30:41 pm »
Is Iran a threat or not?   ???

I've seen the video with McCain contradictions. Obama said on May 18 that Iran is not a serious threat; then, today he said Iran is a grave threat. Looks as if he has some contradictions too.

Senator Clinton won Kentucky big today -- should she stay in the fight? Did it help her much (in the long run)?
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2008, 09:49:07 pm »

My question for Jack, or any Hillary supporter/ Democrat is why McCain would be more appealing than Obama.  Hillary and Obama's platforms are much, much closer together than either one of them is to McCain.  As a Hillary supporter, I'm definitely going to vote for Obama in the general election if he's the nominee.

My biggest concern about Obama is how well he'll do in the general election.  I truly believe Hillary would be more competitive against McCain, especially looking at the states she's won vs. the states that Obama's won.

To me the biggest goal of the general election is to prevent another Republican administration from taking office (especially one that seems so comfortable adopting policies and stances that are similar in some cases to the Bush policies).

I'm worried about things like more conservative judges being nominated for the Supreme court.  Basically all the social issues that I care most deeply about are much more in line with both Obama and Hillary than McCain.

I don't understand questioning Obama's patriotism either.  He's running for president.  How much more patriotic can one be? 


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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2008, 10:05:51 pm »
I don't understand questioning Obama's patriotism either.  He's running for president.  How much more patriotic can one be?  


...Obama should be ready to face the political reality that accompanies some controversial choices.

They include his decision to stay in a church whose pastor blamed America for the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001; and his association, however tenuous, with a Vietnam-era radical named William Ayers.


From the Boston Globe


http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/04/20/obamas_patriotism/

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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2008, 10:12:30 pm »

I know -- this happened a while back:

On Monday, Michelle Obama told an audience in Milwaukee, "For the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of my country. Not just because Barack is doing well, but I think people are hungry for change."

Days later, McCain's wife, Cindy, responded: "I have, and always will be, proud of my country."

Barack Obama has expressed frustration that his wife's remarks had been taken out of context and turned into political fodder — both the Obamas say she was talking about politics in the United States, not the country itself
.

Isn't that the way they spin these things? They are always "taken out of context".
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2008, 10:15:05 pm »
My question for Jack, or any Hillary supporter/ Democrat is why McCain would be more appealing than Obama.  Hillary and Obama's platforms are much, much closer together than either one of them is to McCain.  As a Hillary supporter, I'm definitely going to vote for Obama in the general election if he's the nominee.

My biggest concern about Obama is how well he'll do in the general election.  I truly believe Hillary would be more competitive against McCain, especially looking at the states she's won vs. the states that Obama's won.

To me the biggest goal of the general election is to prevent another Republican administration from taking office (especially one that seems so comfortable adopting policies and stances that are similar in some cases to the Bush policies).

I'm worried about things like more conservative judges being nominated for the Supreme court.  Basically all the social issues that I care most deeply about are much more in line with both Obama and Hillary than McCain.

I don't understand questioning Obama's patriotism either.  He's running for president.  How much more patriotic can one be?

Well put, Amanda.  I've read a few things that call his patriotism into question - and I have no idea if they're fact or fiction - like he will not wear a US Flag pin on his lapel and does not salute with a hand over his heart during the Pledge of Allegience.

Even if these two things ARE true (and I tend to think that's a big IF), I think people need to differentiate between true patriotism and outward displays of patriotism.   For instance, I think reciting the Pledge of Allegience should be optional.  There are plenty of people who think this is not patriotic, but I am of the opinion that true patriotism includes an obligation to question our leaders and not support the government blindly.

If there is any good that has come out of the Iraq wars, it is that people who oppose the wars have learned to separate the solidier from the war.  We can support our troops, who are doing their jobs and serving their country, and still oppose the war.  The soldiers who served in the Vietnam 'conflict' were not afforded this courtesy.
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Offline optom3

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2008, 10:15:35 pm »
In the U.K I always used to vote Conservative,right wing. However from what I have read and heard,the right wing are just way too right wing for me.Something I never thought I would hear myself say,Not that it makes any odds as I can't vote here.
To me McCain is a little on the old side and there seems no room for compromise with him,it's all so black and white..It does seem that some new younger blood, male or female,might just be the shot in the arm,the country needs.
It does seem as if America is in a similar situation to the U.K, prior to Tony Blairs first success.People seem restless and dissatisfied with a lot of things.Maybe here just as in the U.K people are ready for a change after years of right wing government.
It is also interesting to note that Tony Blair was significantly younger than his predecessor.Much as the democratic candidates here.
It is of course easy for me to pass comment,I am a guest in your country.I would just be happy if one of them would give me a Green card.!!!!
Only time will tell.Whatever the result,same as all elections,some will celebrate,some will drown their sorrows.You can please some of the people all the time,or all the people some of the time.You sure can't please all the people all the time.

But hey, what do I know I'm a Brit.

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2008, 11:36:06 pm »
My question for Jack, or any Hillary supporter/ Democrat is why McCain would be more appealing than Obama.  Hillary and Obama's platforms are much, much closer together than either one of them is to McCain.  As a Hillary supporter, I'm definitely going to vote for Obama in the general election if he's the nominee.

My biggest concern about Obama is how well he'll do in the general election.  I truly believe Hillary would be more competitive against McCain, especially looking at the states she's won vs. the states that Obama's won.

To me the biggest goal of the general election is to prevent another Republican administration from taking office (especially one that seems so comfortable adopting policies and stances that are similar in some cases to the Bush policies).

I'm worried about things like more conservative judges being nominated for the Supreme court.  Basically all the social issues that I care most deeply about are much more in line with both Obama and Hillary than McCain.

I don't understand questioning Obama's patriotism either.  He's running for president.  How much more patriotic can one be? 




McCain is known, he has worked WITH the Democrats on more than one occassion, making his own party angry with him....that tells me his principles are more important to him then party politics. He has a record of accomplishments in government....what does Obama have? a pretty smile? a nice turn of phrase?

McCain has consistantly spoken out against torture and a lot of the current administrations tactics...that is why he is not as well liked as he could be in the Republican party.

I want experience...we have to live in reality, not in dreams. Obama needs to go back to Congress and DO something...anything to have some record of what he stands for.

What has he done to make himself suited to be President? It is HIS job to persuade me...not for me to hunt for something to like...

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2008, 12:06:41 am »

For me, social issues are always my core and main barometers for picking a candidate.  I don't trust McCain (or the general Republican platform) on women's issues or gay rights issues.  There's almost nothing that could get me to vote for a candidate who wasn't an advocate (and ideally a strong advocate) for both of those big issues.  I like the fact that Obama has at least tried to reach out to the gay community.  And, as far as I understand his stances on women's rights aren't too different from Hillary's.

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2008, 12:21:59 am »
For me, social issues are always my core and main barometers for picking a candidate.  I don't trust McCain (or the general Republican platform) on women's issues or gay rights issues.  There's almost nothing that could get me to vote for a candidate who wasn't an advocate (and ideally a strong advocate) for both of those big issues.  I like the fact that Obama has at least tried to reach out to the gay community.  And, as far as I understand his stances on women's rights aren't too different from Hillary's.



sure he has....he is running as a Democrat ...what is the down side for a Democrat to be FOR gay and womens rights? He has no record of working FOR either of those....so is he just giving lip service? you don't know. You can't.

Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2008, 01:50:38 pm »
I have to agree with Shasta and Jess. I do not feel that Obama cares any more about this country than having the power that the presidency brings. That is the scary part. This man has no experience at all running anything except for his mouth. He purposely says things he believes people will like that might vote for him. That seems to me to be all he cares about. He will say most anything to try and get a vote. The scary part is that so many people seem to have been somewhat hypnotized by him. He has turned into more of a rock star type person than someone who needs to be president. One thing he definitely has is an ego that continues to grow. I absolutely hate the way he claps for himself with his nose stuck up in the air and a smirk on his face. I don't know of anyone who thinks they are as great as Obama thinks he is. We just don't need a president who is this self absorbed. And as Jess indicates what has he done for women or gays? Talk is one thing, but what have his actions been on this or any other matter.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2008, 03:46:46 pm »

The Republican record on gay/lesbian issues and women's issues is enough for me to vote against McCain for associating himself with the Republican platform.  It's also distressing to me to see him moving increasingly to the right in what he says... seemingly for the sake of getting elected the party nominee.  McCain has surely transformed himself to appeal to the right of the party, and I think it's really too bad.

McCain's interest in perpetuating an endless war and his hawkishness are scarier to me (by a lot) than the perceptions of Obama's personality discribed here.  All politicians have egos (of that I have no doubt) and what one person might see as smug, another might see as confidence.  If we tried to find only ego-less candidates to vote for... I think we'd have a very small field of possible choices.

But, the way Obama's personality appears at a campaign stop or on TV isn't the way I decide on a candidate.  I look at the issues that they support and the platforms of the parties they have chosen to be a part of.

I will say that I think Obama feels "trendy" right now.  And, I wonder if his popularity really can sustain him through the general election.  Particularly if he's relying a lot on unpredictable very-young voters.

I still think Hillary is a better candidate.  But, all along I've been one who's liked both Hillary and Obama.  So if it ends up being Obama, I'll be OK with that.  Again, other than my worry about his ability to get elected.




« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 11:12:27 pm by atz75 »
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2008, 08:36:17 pm »
So...no worries about lack of experience? I'd rather see him cut his teeth a little longer in Congress -- show a little more of his agenda. I'm sure he has one besides "Hope, Action, Change".

I liked him a little for the nomination before hearing about Rev. Wright and Senator Obama's choice to continue to worship there -- and I think Michelle Obama's quote about America was very telling. She could have said I want to make America a better place to live and tell ways to do so instead of saying she was finally proud for the first time in her adult life.


A comment from a blogger:

I wrote not long ago that Michelle Obama is a loose cannon, and I fear that her latest is not her last. I would have thought that two Ivy-League degrees, a joint income of about a million dollars, exclusive private schools for the kids, and a nice home in the suburbs were not so bad and might suggest that hope had made a comeback well before Barack’s presidential run.



We won the Cold War. Some people are proud of the wall coming down. Both attend Ivy League schools? That's a nice thing. It's great to be able to make a good living -- I'd be proud of that. We're good on science and technology. Yeah. We have a lot of work to do. But there are things to be proud about.

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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2008, 09:54:53 pm »
How he stands on the economy - important

How he stands on the illegal war - important

How he stands on gay issues - important

How he stand on a woman's right to chose - important

How much experience he has - not that important (you don't know how you react until you're faced with those situations)

How his wife expresses her thoughts - absolutely not important

How his preacher thinks - absolutely not important.

How he smirks or appears over confident - not at all important

Come on folks - get real.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2008, 09:56:53 pm »


Thanks Sheriff.  That's pretty much how I see things. :)

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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2008, 10:15:37 pm »
How he stands on the economy - important

How he stands on the illegal war - important

How he stands on gay issues - important

How he stand on a woman's right to chose - important

How much experience he has - not that important (you don't know how you react until you're faced with those situations)

How his wife expresses her thoughts - absolutely not important

How his preacher thinks - absolutely not important.

How he smirks or appears over confident - not at all important

Come on folks - get real.

That's one opinion.

I don't agree with all of it.
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2008, 10:57:49 pm »
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Senate/senator_ratings-2005.html

Wouldn't the first on the list and the last on the list be considered "radical"?

I don't prefer to have a radical -- left or right -- as the U.S. president.
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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2008, 11:07:25 pm »
Isn't that like saying an "A+" is a bad score cause it's extremely high, and a "C" is the best mark possible?

Maybe I didn't understand your argument view point.
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2008, 11:12:11 pm »
It's saying that Senator Obama is a radical socialist, and I'd prefer someone running the country who did not have that agenda. We don't even know his whole agenda because he voted "present" on several key bills when they were presented.
 
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Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2008, 11:19:36 pm »
If I'm reading it correctly, Obama's numbers are lower than Dick Durbin's of Illinois because neither the PTA or the ACLU rated Obama.  All their other numbers were the same.  And Obama's numbers are only slightly higher than Ted Kennedy's or Hillary Clinton's.  Obama's mean score is 98, theirs is 95. 

Sounds more typical than radical to me.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2008, 11:44:41 pm »
If I'm reading it correctly, Obama's numbers are lower than Dick Durbin's of Illinois because neither the PTA or the ACLU rated Obama.  All their other numbers were the same.  And Obama's numbers are only slightly higher than Ted Kennedy's or Hillary Clinton's.  Obama's mean score is 98, theirs is 95. 

Sounds more typical than radical to me.

Maybe "typical" for this forum, but Senator Obama has the highest ratings possible by liberal and leftists groups. That shows that he is outside the mainstream of U.S. opinion. It would be dangerous to have a President with views that are far to the left or far to the right of the mainstream.

Individual states and congressional districts may elect far leftists or rightwingers, but the country as a whole needs a president who reflects the opinions of the overwhelming majority. Senator Obama is far to the left of the overwhelming majority of Americans.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2008, 11:58:02 pm »
How he stands on the economy - important 

what he has done about the economy in his district  - important

How he stands on the illegal war - important

What he has done in the Senate about the war - important

How he stands on gay issues - important

See above

How he stand on a woman's right to chose - important

see above

How much experience he has - not that important (you don't know how you react until you're faced with those situations)

SEE ABOVE!!!

How his wife expresses her thoughts - absolutely not important

How his preacher thinks - absolutely not important.

How he smirks or appears over confident - not at all important

Come on folks - get real.

He has been in the Senate for how long and has a record of what?? "Presents" ...not AYES or NAYS...but Present.

leader? no.

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Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2008, 08:27:48 pm »
Like I have said before it is quite easy to see what is going to happen if the Democrats nominate Obama. It's as easy as looking at a map and comparing it to past elections. Look at the states Obama has won. These are Republican (red) states. Then look at the swing states. Who has won them? Hillary. Look at states like New York and California. Who won them? Hillary. Who has the best chance of winning all of these states in a national election between McCain and Obama? McCain. Who becomes president? McCain. Nominate Obama and McCain more than likely becomes the next president.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2008, 09:42:45 pm »
Like I have said before it is quite easy to see what is going to happen if the Democrats nominate Obama. It's as easy as looking at a map and comparing it to past elections. Look at the states Obama has won. These are Republican (red) states. Then look at the swing states. Who has won them? Hillary. Look at states like New York and California. Who won them? Hillary. Who has the best chance of winning all of these states in a national election between McCain and Obama? McCain. Who becomes president? McCain. Nominate Obama and McCain more than likely becomes the next president.

My sense is that the major issue of which states Hillary has won and her favorable percentages against McCain in Ohio, PA and one other swing state that they mentioned on the news tonight (I think Florida) is the main reason that so many superdelegates are still not making up their mind and the reason the party is permitting this primary to go on and on.  If the party and the superdelegates were really comfortable with Obama, I think this would have been over a while ago.  And, I really do think the main issue is competitiveness since Obama's and Hillary's platforms are so relatively similar.





the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2008, 10:03:42 pm »
Maybe "typical" for this forum, but Senator Obama has the highest ratings possible by liberal and leftists groups. That shows that he is outside the mainstream of U.S. opinion. It would be dangerous to have a President with views that are far to the left or far to the right of the mainstream.

Individual states and congressional districts may elect far leftists or rightwingers, but the country as a whole needs a president who reflects the opinions of the overwhelming majority. Senator Obama is far to the left of the overwhelming majority of Americans.


Absolutely correct.  In fact, the senator ratings by the leftists groups...so what? A study measuring attitudes among such a bias and skewed set of repondents is totally worthless. hello? Would anyone expect results from this set of left wingers to be different? I'll quote one of the recent posters--"get real".

After 8 years of Clinton divisiveness and another 8 years of Bush divisiveness, the last thing this country (or the world) needs is another poorly qualified, rely-on-platitudes, easy-target-for-controvery leader. Geraldine Ferraro was right. Obama has little business being where he is. If his personal beliefs as well as his politics were not so skewed to the left, he might be a reasonable risk. But, his views (the few we know about!) reflect only a minority of Americans' beliefs.




Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2008, 10:07:20 pm »
The Republican record on gay/lesbian issues and women's issues is enough for me to vote against McCain for associating himself with the Republican platform. 



I do not think this is accurate. What record are you referring to as compared to democrats? Sounds like a broadly sweeping generalization that in reality is not the case.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2008, 10:23:28 pm »
How he stands on the economy - important  OK

How he stands on the illegal war - important  Stance on the legal war, OK

How he stands on gay issues - important  Not all issues are the same, nor should they be. That would be bias.

How he stand on a woman's right to chose - important  The entire abortion issue needs rethinking. The so-called right to choose without any measurements is antiquated.

How much experience he has - not that important (you don't know how you react until you're faced with those situations) How absurd to suggest predicting actions is unimportant. What the heck is the primary process for? The whole election process is about determining who will do best IN THE NEXT 4 YEARS, not yesterday! Experience may not lead to success, but inexperience almost certainly will not.

How his wife expresses her thoughts - absolutely not important  Huh? Can you spell HILLARY? We don't need another spouse who butts in and draws attention away from the work needed to get done. And, I do not want anyone with influence who has very strange ideas/views to be the one doing pillow talk.

How his preacher thinks - absolutely not important. Very important especially given the closeness and apparent endorsements a candidate appears to have given his preacher over the years.

How he smirks or appears over confident - not at all important Agree. but interestingly the left has spent 7+ years whining and wailing about Bush's smirks. Now not important, eh?

Come on folks - get real. That's what i say too.

injest

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2008, 11:34:27 pm »
good to see you, Herrkaiser. I may not agree with everything you say but  do like to hear what you have to say..

Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #73 on: May 23, 2008, 10:34:17 am »
Also remember that in most states only the registered Democrats are voting in the Democratic primaries. What happens in these states when everyone (Democrats, Republican, Independents) votes in the national election? It will no longer be between Hillary and Obama.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #74 on: May 23, 2008, 03:37:11 pm »
How he stands on the economy - important

How he stands on the illegal war - important

How he stands on gay issues - important

How he stand on a woman's right to chose - important

How much experience he has - not that important (you don't know how you react until you're faced with those situations)

How his wife expresses her thoughts - absolutely not important

How his preacher thinks - absolutely not important.

How he smirks or appears over confident - not at all important

Come on folks - get real.


Regarding the get real part....it seems several factors--important ones-- are missing from the list that was posted:

how he plans to solve the education issues

how he plans to deal with health care

how he plans to handle illegal aliens

how he plans to address the growing entitlement crisis

how he plans to create an energy independent nation



So far, not much in the way of plans/programs for these.

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2008, 05:27:01 pm »
Quote
How he stand on a woman's right to chose - important  The entire abortion issue needs rethinking. The so-called right to choose without any measurements is antiquated.

Who said anything about "without any measurements"? 

In any case, lack of choice for women is the thing that's antiquated. As is the lack of birth control funding, lack of overseas family planning aid, and flat-earth-style Abstinence-Only "Education".

Tell me: what tends to happen with the "entitlement crisis" when thousands of ill-prepared people have unwanted children?



[this may seem OT but it's pertinent, since if McCain (whom I respect) is elected, we will have more conservatives on the SCOTUS — and the right to choose will be in mortal danger.]

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2008, 07:43:41 pm »


In any case, lack of choice for women is the thing that's antiquated.

Clearly, we are not living in the same country. Unlimited choices for women have been overwhelmingly guaranteed since RoevWade. So, the statement that choices are lacking for women relative to child bearing and abortion reflects a gross unawareness of the current legal choices available.

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2008, 11:52:58 am »
Kaiser, what I meant by 'antiquated' was the idea that choice for women should be rolled back.  And yes, there are many restrictions on abortion depending on where you live (3rd- or 2nd-trimester bans, parental consent requirements, 'cooling-off' periods, etc.)

I don't think I have to tell you that if it were men and boys getting pregnant, the law wouldn't be talking down to them the way it historically has to women.  (A comedian once said that if men needed abortions, there would be clinics all over with scantily-dressed nurses cooing, "local or general?")  On the serious side, though, whether or not to have an abortion is an extremely weighty, serious decision and I don't know that I could ever do that.  What I question is who has a right to legislate on the issue and make that decision for everyone.
Any classical small-government conservative (who also questions the right to legislate against gun ownership) should be able to relate to that.

Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2008, 12:06:13 pm »
I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression of where I stand on social and moral issues. I do not think that the government should interfere with the rights of the people. Social and moral issues should not be decided by the government or the church. It is simply not any of their business. People should be free in their choices as long as these choices are not harming other people. I am definitely for the rights of women, the rights of gays, etc. I am a Democrat and I am a liberal. I always have been since I was a child. Not being for Obama does not change that. It may very well be that I don't vote for anyone if Obama does get the nomination. I do have my issues with McCain and as I have said before I have never voted or been for a Republican candidate for president. I truly wish that the Democrats could have given us more and better choices.

injest

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2008, 12:25:14 pm »
Kaiser, what I meant by 'antiquated' was the idea that choice for women should be rolled back.  And yes, there are many restrictions on abortion depending on where you live (3rd- or 2nd-trimester bans, parental consent requirements, 'cooling-off' periods, etc.)

I don't think I have to tell you that if it were men and boys getting pregnant, the law wouldn't be talking down to them the way it historically has to women.  (A comedian once said that if men needed abortions, there would be clinics all over with scantily-dressed nurses cooing, "local or general?")  On the serious side, though, whether or not to have an abortion is an extremely weighty, serious decision and I don't know that I could ever do that.  What I question is who has a right to legislate on the issue and make that decision for everyone.
Any classical small-government conservative (who also questions the right to legislate against gun ownership) should be able to relate to that.

I get tickled everytime I hear one of the talk show conservatives wailing "I want GOVERNMENT OUT OF MY LIFE!!"

How much FURTHER could they GET into your life than telling you who you can sleep with and whether or not you have a baby?

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2008, 12:37:03 pm »
Kaiser, what I meant by 'antiquated' was the idea that choice for women should be rolled back.  And yes, there are many restrictions on abortion depending on where you live (3rd- or 2nd-trimester bans, parental consent requirements, 'cooling-off' periods, etc.)

I don't think I have to tell you that if it were men and boys getting pregnant, the law wouldn't be talking down to them the way it historically has to women.  (A comedian once said that if men needed abortions, there would be clinics all over with scantily-dressed nurses cooing, "local or general?")  On the serious side, though, whether or not to have an abortion is an extremely weighty, serious decision and I don't know that I could ever do that.  What I question is who has a right to legislate on the issue and make that decision for everyone.
Any classical small-government conservative (who also questions the right to legislate against gun ownership) should be able to relate to that.

Amen to that!

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2008, 01:14:42 pm »
Clearly, we are not living in the same country. Unlimited choices for women have been overwhelmingly guaranteed since RoevWade. So, the statement that choices are lacking for women relative to child bearing and abortion reflects a gross unawareness of the current legal choices available.

As well as the almost unlimited choices of birth control that are available in lieu of ending life.
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Marge_Innavera

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2008, 01:33:13 pm »
Clearly, we are not living in the same country. Unlimited choices for women have been overwhelmingly guaranteed since RoevWade. So, the statement that choices are lacking for women relative to child bearing and abortion reflects a gross unawareness of the current legal choices available.

There ya go, Herr K. -- that's just what we women need; a man to tell us about our "unlimited choices", and don't let anyone tell ya you didn't get into specifics.

Why, it's a miracle that single straight women and lesbians even know how to wipe their own butts.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2008, 01:43:46 pm »
Well, I'm a woman, and I think there are many choices besides abortion.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Marge_Innavera

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2008, 01:51:48 pm »
Well, I'm a woman, and I think there are many choices besides abortion.

"Many" implies more than two.  What are the additions to (1) having the baby and keeping it or (2) having it adopted? And if you check Door Number 2, you'd better hope the baby doesn't have any special needs and isn't a minority race.
Oh, wait!  I just thought of a third popular one: leave the baby in a public restroom or dumpster. Of course, the infant usually dies but hey, at  least the woman didn't have an abortion.

I'm still waiting for that list of the vast number of birth control choices. Can't you name at least the first 20?

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2008, 01:57:05 pm »
I understand what you're getting at here, Shasta, with birth control as a preventative option against pregnancy and the necessity of abortion. (If I had the choice, there would be no abortions, and no unwanted kids, either. And contraception – when it's available, affordable and perfectly effective – is part of the solution).

I think the way this ties into the political debate is that with neo-conservatives' influence (not the traditional small-govt conservatives), comes a retreat toward puritanical values, and trends in education and law that reflect that.  Thus: less birth control availability, less education, less information. And less incentive for the biomedical community to invest in research to develop better, healthier, more effective methods. 

It's no coincidence that in places (such as Eastern Europe where women's rights are less advanced) where there are few-to-no affordable birth control options available on the general market, abortion is the number-one form of birth control. 
:(

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2008, 01:58:28 pm »
Kaiser, what I meant by 'antiquated' was the idea that choice for women should be rolled back.  And yes, there are many restrictions on abortion depending on where you live (3rd- or 2nd-trimester bans, parental consent requirements, 'cooling-off' periods, etc.)

I don't think I have to tell you that if it were men and boys getting pregnant, the law wouldn't be talking down to them the way it historically has to women.  (A comedian once said that if men needed abortions, there would be clinics all over with scantily-dressed nurses cooing, "local or general?")  On the serious side, though, whether or not to have an abortion is an extremely weighty, serious decision and I don't know that I could ever do that.  What I question is who has a right to legislate on the issue and make that decision for everyone.
Any classical small-government conservative (who also questions the right to legislate against gun ownership) should be able to relate to that.

I think you have many misconceptions.

First of all, roe v wade is federal; it applies everywhere. It's ONLY restrictions for any woman seeking an abortion in 2nd or 3rd trimesters and up to, literally, the moment before labor, are physician assessments of serious health dangers to the woman if the procedure is done. These are not truly "restrictions" on choice; they are the same types of medical determinations made for nearly any surgeries. The baby is never at issue or considered, under law. As long as the baby is in the uterus, it can be killed. This allows a woman--not a husband, father, boyfriend, legal entity or anyone else--to destroy a baby that could have been born an hour later as a healthy human being. Regarding the parental concent, the GIRLS involved are not women. If they were 18, they'd be adults and not at issue. To suggest 'women's' rights are in jeopardy because of parental consent issues relative to girls is quite misleading.

secondly, the old "if men got pregnant..." line is quite unrealistic. Fact is that 31% of all single parent households are headed by men who, unlike their female counterparts, are rarely provided "support" in various ways to manage parenting, working, and household. Over half of divorces involve the husband/father seeking custody of his children, which almost never happens..just because of gender bias. The fact men struggle to obtain custody in an uphill, losing battle is testimony to their dedicated effort to be responsible fathers. If men got pregnant, we might have better families. The rights that have been "rolled back" are those of the male half of the population.

thirdly, the label of 'small government conservative' should not suggest to a thinking person that laws and rules ought not exist. The large government liberal should relate to the fact that large societies and groups of people often do not make the right choices for themselves and need right thinking governments to guide their behavior.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2008, 02:02:11 pm »
There ya go, Herr K. -- that's just what we women need; a man to tell us about our "unlimited choices", and don't let anyone tell ya you didn't get into specifics.

Why, it's a miracle that single straight women and lesbians even know how to wipe their own butts.

You might be better served to indicate what choices you think you don't have, then we can help you to understand.


Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #88 on: May 24, 2008, 02:05:28 pm »
I am a Democrat and I am a liberal. I always have been since I was a child.

OK. I can't help it so I apologize in advance for sarcasm and rudeness...

TIME TO MATURE AND GROW UP!!!  ;)

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #89 on: May 24, 2008, 02:07:29 pm »
"Many" implies more than two.  What are the additions to (1) having the baby and keeping it or (2) having it adopted? And if you check Door Number 2, you'd better hope the baby doesn't have any special needs and isn't a minority race.
Oh, wait!  I just thought of a third popular one: leave the baby in a public restroom or dumpster. Of course, the infant usually dies but hey, at  least the woman didn't have an abortion.

I'm still waiting for that list of the vast number of birth control choices. Can't you name at least the first 20?

I can list some, but why? If you really want to know about Implanon, NuvaRing, sponges, Depo-Provera, barrier methods, etc. -- just google "birth control options".
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Marge_Innavera

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #90 on: May 24, 2008, 02:07:48 pm »
You might be better served to indicate what choices you think you don't have, then we can help you to understand.

Oh, that's just too much for my little ole female pea brain to process.  I will just sit humbly at your feet and wait for the pearls to drop.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #91 on: May 24, 2008, 02:09:21 pm »
I can list some, but why? If you really want to know about Implanon, NuvaRing, sponges, Depo-Provera, barrier methods, etc. -- just google "birth control options".

You were the one who said there's no reason for a woman to have an abortion.  How about enlightening us dinosaur feminists on all those wonderful alternatives? None of which fail, of course. And none of which can have serious or even fatal side effects.

Of course, there's always a coat hanger.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #92 on: May 24, 2008, 02:19:59 pm »
You were the one who said there's no reason for a woman to have an abortion.  How about enlightening us dinosaur feminists on all those wonderful alternatives? None of which fail, of course. And none of which can have serious or even fatal side effects.

Of course, there's always a coat hanger.

Now there you go misquoting me. I never said there is no reason -- I said there are many choices besides abortion. Don't spin my posts, please.

Why didn't you tell what choices you think women don't have? Women can get abortions. Women can get birth control. Where are the lack of choices?
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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injest

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #93 on: May 24, 2008, 03:17:17 pm »
how does everyone feel about splitting this topic? we seem to be off the original subject?

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #94 on: May 24, 2008, 03:22:45 pm »
Now there you go misquoting me. I never said there is no reason -- I said there are many choices besides abortion. Don't spin my posts, please.

Okay, no spin.

What are all these "many choices", other than keeping the baby or having it adopted?

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #95 on: May 24, 2008, 03:27:29 pm »
I just consider any birth control method to be an alternative to abortion.

I'm not talking about health issues that are dealt with by abortion.

I am talking about -- a woman doesn't want a baby, a woman wants to have sex with a man,  and in an effort to not have a baby -- a woman uses one of the many birth control methods on the market. I don't see what is so hard about that.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #96 on: May 24, 2008, 03:32:30 pm »
how does everyone feel about splitting this topic? we seem to be off the original subject?

It doesn't have to be split on my account. I will get back on topic.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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injest

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #97 on: May 24, 2008, 03:32:53 pm »
Marge is talking about AFTER the woman is already pregnant and Shasta is talking about BEFORE...

yes after she is pregnant there is only two choices (although a huge assortment of ways to do them these days)

and BEFORE there are TONS of ways to not get pregnant...

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #98 on: May 24, 2008, 04:18:49 pm »
John McCain.

I'm sure everyone knows that he refused early release from a VN POW camp even tho he was considerably underweight and had severe dysentery AND faced torture and beatings for the refusal. He says that the thought of going home to his family and sleeping in a clean bed was a wonderful thought. But the thought of going against the code and leaving comrades who'd been there longer made him stay.

He eventually was beaten so much that he had broken bones, and was tortured into making a statement that he didn't believe. That has been a hard thing for him to get over, but he has forgiven himself.

He continued to be beaten for communicating with other POW's, declining to meet with American "peace delegations", etc. Quoting from his book:


Whenever I emerged from the interrogations room after a few hours or a few days of punishment, I tried to make a show of my indifference to my circumstances. Whether I walked of my own accord or was dragged by guards back to my cell, I always shouted greetings to the prisoners whose cells I passed, smiled, and flashed a thumbs-up. In the years since I came home, I have occasionally been embarrassed to hear some of my fellow POW's commend me for those attempts at good cheer. They believed they were intended to boost their spirits. In truth, they were mostly intended to boost my own.

I think he's a gritty character. To me -- he may be a little stubborn with a bad temper. But he seems to have a good head on his shoulders and he seems to be aware of his own faults.

His mom is spunky at 95/96 ? and he thanked her for helping him with some of the stories about the family. I liked this part:

She was quite generous with her time despite her initial suspicion that I was "just trying to show off."

Haha -- seems she still tells him just what she thinks about him. He credits her with his learning resiience in persevering. She did her best to raise him right.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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injest

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #99 on: May 24, 2008, 04:22:40 pm »
John McCain.

I'm sure everyone knows that he refused early release from a VN POW camp even tho he was considerably underweight and had severe dysentery AND faced torture and beatings for the refusal. He says that the thought of going home to his family and sleeping in a clean bed was a wonderful thought. But the thought of going against the code and leaving comrades who'd been there longer made him stay.

He eventually was beaten so much that he had broken bones, and was tortured into making a statement that he didn't believe. That has been a hard thing for him to get over, but he has forgiven himself.

He continued to be beaten for communicating with other POW's, declining to meet with American "peace delegations", etc. Quoting from his book:


Whenever I emerged from the interrogations room after a few hours or a few days of punishment, I tried to make a show of my indifference to my circumstances. Whether I walked of my own accord or was dragged by guards back to my cell, I always shouted greetings to the prisoners whose cells I passed, smiled, and flashed a thumbs-up. In the years since I came home, I have occasionally been embarrassed to hear some of my fellow POW's commend me for those attempts at good cheer. They believed they were intended to boost their spirits. In truth, they were mostly intended to boost my own.

I think he's a gritty character. To me -- he may be a little stubborn with a bad temper. But he seems to have a good head on his shoulders and he seems to be aware of his own faults.

His mom is spunky at 95/96 ? and he thanked her for helping him with some of the stories about the family. I liked this part:

She was quite generous with her time despite her initial suspicion that I was "just trying to show off."

Haha -- seems she still tells him just what she thinks about him. He credits her with his learning resiience in persevering. She did her best to raise him right.

I do admire his personal character, Shasta...which will make it easier for me to vote for him over Obama if it comes down to that.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #100 on: May 24, 2008, 04:30:26 pm »
Well, I'm a woman, and I think there are many choices besides abortion.

The Catholic Church is against ALL of those choices. They are against birth control, contraceptives of any kind, and abortion. According to the church, engaging in the use of any of these will send you to Hell. And the church doesn't teach of a "nice Hell" and a "mean Hell". Hell is Hell.

They still haven't offered any solution to overpopulation. I always figured gay people were God's or Nature's way of helping to keep the world's population in check. But the church teaches us that gay people will go to Hell too. They offer all sorts of condemnations, and no practical solutions - one of the main reasons I left the Catholic church.
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #101 on: May 24, 2008, 04:41:35 pm »
The Catholic Church is against ALL of those choices. They are against birth control, contraceptives of any kind, and abortion. According to the church, engaging in the use of any of these will send you to Hell. And the church doesn't teach of a "nice Hell" and a "mean Hell". Hell is Hell.

They still haven't offered any solution to overpopulation. I always figured gay people were God's or Nature's way of helping to keep the world's population in check. But the church teaches us that gay people will go to Hell too. They offer all sorts of condemnations, and no practical solutions - one of the main reasons I left the Catholic church.

Abortion is not a choice for Catholics either. So if a Catholic has to make a choice of using birth control or of having an abortion -- even risking hell -- I think the birth control would be the better choice.

The church isn't controlled by the government tho. I wasn't talking about religious choices when I made that post.
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #102 on: May 24, 2008, 04:44:39 pm »
John McCain -- who should be his running mate?

Some say Mitt Romney. Who are some other choices?

Barack Obama -- who should be his running mate?

Some say Hillary Clinton. Maybe John Edwards. Who are some other choices?
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #103 on: May 24, 2008, 04:52:10 pm »
John McCain -- who should be his running mate?

Some say Mitt Romney. Who are some other choices?

Barack Obama -- who should be his running mate?

Some say Hillary Clinton. Maybe John Edwards. Who are some other choices?



Here's one idea

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/obama_clinton_mccain_join_forces

 ;D

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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #105 on: May 24, 2008, 08:39:11 pm »
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #106 on: May 25, 2008, 02:44:40 pm »
Possible running mates for Senator McCain:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24762893/
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #107 on: May 25, 2008, 05:45:28 pm »
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Monika

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #108 on: May 27, 2008, 11:20:20 am »
As a non-American I do hope the democrats win this year...the world has had enough of the Bush politics. Yak.



Go Obama and the democratic party!

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #109 on: May 27, 2008, 11:32:26 am »
As an American, I am not so concerned with which party is in power as I am with which person will be able to lead the country in the best way on the most issues.
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Offline Monika

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #110 on: May 27, 2008, 11:54:38 am »
I don´t quite understand that. isn´t it the politics that matters? Otherwise it´s just a popularity contest. O0
The two nominees are after all representatives of their respective parties so how can you seperate party /nominee. Don´t forget that the guy you vote for will represent a certain party politics that will impact millions of people all over the world. That´s no little responability and should be about more than just "well..this guy seems nice...let´s vote for him". It´s the issues that matters.

Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #111 on: May 27, 2008, 12:05:33 pm »
Here's one idea

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/obama_clinton_mccain_join_forces

 ;D

Great article  ;D That's pretty much what I have been saying all along. Why have they not been able to find anyone better than these three to run for president? We basically do have three nightmares. As I have said the only reason I am for Hillary is because I see her as the less of three evils. I certainly am not overjoyed about her. It's just that she seems to be the best. The thoughts of Obama or McCain are lousy. Can't we just start over with some decent candidates? I wish. I must admit it makes me sick to hear McCain talking about keeping this horrible, unjustified war in Iraq going on. To think of all the lives that are going to be lost during his insistence concerning this. In my opinion Bush along with Cheney should be tried for war crimes cause they certainly have committed them. Can you imagine having all that blood on your hands and not even caring? Wow, talk about sickening.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #112 on: May 27, 2008, 12:09:11 pm »
Barack Obama is a very handsome, charismatic, well-educated man. He is popular -- very popular. If he were more experienced, if I knew more about him and his agenda -- he might be a good candidate. I know -- some people discount experience. I do not. I think that John McCain would make the better leader for the country as it stands today. If they were reversed--McCain a Dem and Obama a Rep -- would I feel differently? How can I know? I hope not. McCain is not a far right candidate -- he is right of center. So not an extreme. I prefer that.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #113 on: May 27, 2008, 12:19:51 pm »
I would *love* for Obama to win.  And I'm so looking forward to voting *for* someone for the first time in my life rather than voting against the greater of two evils.

But I fear that McCain will win.  And the country will be even further polarized than it already is.  (I really believe that Obama could begin the process of healing and re-uniting us after the debacle - no, embarassment - that has been and continues to be the Bush administration.)

I think there are still too many ignorant people in this country.  I can't tell you how often I hear "I just don't know that having a Muslim president is a good idea."  And from people I thought were well-educated and intelligent!  Not only is he not a Muslim, it wouldn't matter if he were.  Muslims are not the problem.  Religious extremists in all factions are.  I really think that people who say this are at heart anti-black, and feel that it's a more "politically correct" admission to hate/fear Muslims than, certainly, to hate/fear blacks.  And that thought chills me to the bone.

The longer I live in this country, the more I want to leave it.  And that is no exaggeration.  I really worry about what will happen when McCain wins.  I don't see the Draft as being too far in the distant future, for one thing.  My son is now 6 1/2.  12 years and thousands of more lives later, he could very well find himself facing it if we keep electing war mongers like Bush and McCain into office.
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Offline Monika

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #114 on: May 27, 2008, 12:20:50 pm »
In my opinion Bush along with Cheney should be tried for war crimes cause they certainly have committed them. Can you imagine having all that blood on your hands and not even caring? Wow, talk about sickening.
I sure wouldn´t mind....

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #115 on: May 27, 2008, 12:28:55 pm »
I expect some people said that about Wilson, FDR, and Ike (Normandy commander) Truman, and Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon ..... some of them had many more losses. The buck has to stop somewhere, and to say that the leaders don't care -- I can't believe that of any of them.
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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #116 on: May 27, 2008, 01:23:20 pm »
I think there are still too many ignorant people in this country.  I can't tell you how often I hear "I just don't know that having a Muslim president is a good idea."  And from people I thought were well-educated and intelligent!  Not only is he not a Muslim, it wouldn't matter if he were.  Muslims are not the problem.  Religious extremists in all factions are.  I really think that people who say this are at heart anti-black, and feel that it's a more "politically correct" admission to hate/fear Muslims than, certainly, to hate/fear blacks.  And that thought chills me to the bone.

The longer I live in this country, the more I want to leave it.  And that is no exaggeration.  I really worry about what will happen when McCain wins.  I don't see the Draft as being too far in the distant future, for one thing.  My son is now 6 1/2.  12 years and thousands of more lives later, he could very well find himself facing it if we keep electing war mongers like Bush and McCain into office.

That's a good point about a draft, Barb.  The Afghani and Iraqi fronts have our forces stretched near to breaking.  I don't think it's at all outside the realm of possibility.

Regarding the racism...what do people think about the 20% or so voting in West Virginia, Kentucky, elsewhere, who supported Hillary over Obama and cited race as a factor in their choice?  My cynical self was wondering which prejudice would be stronger - that against a black candidate or that against a female candidate.  Though I have to say that I didn't really expect race to be as high a factor in the primary process as in the general election.  Or maybe I didn't think people would have the wherewithal to admit it openly.  Disappointing, IMO.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #117 on: May 27, 2008, 01:38:13 pm »
My cynical self was wondering which prejudice would be stronger - that against a black candidate or that against a female candidate.

I think there's a lot of both kinds of prejudice out there with regard to this primary.  Sometimes these prejudices seem to be broiling just under the surface and sometimes they seem to come to a head.  I think both Obama and Hillary have had to deal with the negative consequences of prejudice, but the issues may emerge differently in different places and issue-to-issue.

Differences in how racism and sexism have manifested historically and in terms of politics are fascinating and disheartening.  I mean women (all women) had to wait much longer to win the right to vote on a national level than did African American men, who were granted the right at least technically by the 15th amendment at the end of the Civil War.  But, of course it took the Civil Rights era in the 1960s to see that those rights were fully accessible without intimidation (etc.).  So, it's so complicated to see how sexism and racism have had two parallel and sometimes rather different histories (in terms of politics).

It's an unfortunate reality that our society hasn't moved beyond either form of prejudice.  And, watching how it's all playing out in this unique primary situation is also fascinating and disheartening.  It's such an extraordinary situation to have the first major and viable African American and female candidates running at the same time against each other.  Who would have ever predicted this?  But, that fact that their campaigns are now a reality, and both have had successes, is something to take comfort in I think.

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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #118 on: May 27, 2008, 05:31:05 pm »
Put Ageism in there with Sexism and Racism. That's the one that's used on Senator McCain. I know there have been older candidates who've been elected and no other races or women, but I've still heard a lot of discussion about him being 72 by Jan. 2009. Youth is worshipped. Age is not very respected.
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Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #119 on: May 27, 2008, 05:39:16 pm »
What will be interesting is when running mates are chosen.  Those choices are crucial for balancing out what are seen as the liabilities of the principal candidate.

A Southern, white and relatively hawkish running mate for Obama might quell some of the reservations people have about him.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #120 on: May 27, 2008, 05:45:56 pm »
Virginia's James Webb may be a good choice.

I'm studying LA Gov. Bobby Jindal for McCain.
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #121 on: May 30, 2008, 10:49:06 pm »
Looks like the "right" isn't the only side that has trouble with its religious leaders.

What a mouth on Chicago's Father Fleger. Or Pfleger.  :P I've seen it both ways on the news.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #122 on: May 30, 2008, 10:50:38 pm »
Looks like the "right" isn't the only side that has trouble with its religious leaders.

 :-\ :P

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #123 on: June 01, 2008, 08:15:29 am »
Barack Obama resigned from his church:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24908975
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Offline optom3

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #124 on: June 02, 2008, 12:36:54 am »
I would *love* for Obama to win.  And I'm so looking forward to voting *for* someone for the first time in my life rather than voting against the greater of two evils.

But I fear that McCain will win.  And the country will be even further polarized than it already is.  (I really believe that Obama could begin the process of healing and re-uniting us after the debacle - no, embarassment - that has been and continues to be the Bush administration.)

I think there are still too many ignorant people in this country.  I can't tell you how often I hear "I just don't know that having a Muslim president is a good idea."  And from people I thought were well-educated and intelligent!  Not only is he not a Muslim, it wouldn't matter if he were.  Muslims are not the problem.  Religious extremists in all factions are.  I really think that people who say this are at heart anti-black, and feel that it's a more "politically correct" admission to hate/fear Muslims than, certainly, to hate/fear blacks.  And that thought chills me to the bone.

The longer I live in this country, the more I want to leave it.  And that is no exaggeration.  I really worry about what will happen when McCain wins.  I don't see the Draft as being too far in the distant future, for one thing.  My son is now 6 1/2.  12 years and thousands of more lives later, he could very well find himself facing it if we keep electing war mongers like Bush and McCain into office.


I actuallythought I was right wing until we moved here. The right wing here is bordering on fascist.They are so far over to te right,I now think I must be left wing.
I never thought I would hear myself say that.In the U.K the right wing is a lamb compared to here. But it is as well to rmember that it was Tony Blair and his left wing government which took the U.K into war,against the will of pretty welll all the country and on the back of some now disproved facts.
So I think sometimes it is more to do with personality than politics.
Tony Blair was young when he came to power.He ws going to change Britain beyond all recognition.He did, he took us into a war we did not want.He promised no more sleaze and his govenment had some of the worst scandals ever.
I give up on politicians,they all become corrupted by power. That I think is the crux of the matter. It must take a very very strong person to remain uncorrupted by the truly enormous amount of power they have,
Is it possible to be a leader and honest,or is that just a contradiction in terms. If so, then the best option wuld be for a form of coalition government, where there is a counter balance at all times.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #125 on: June 02, 2008, 03:09:42 am »
I actuallythought I was right wing until we moved here. The right wing here is bordering on fascist.They are so far over to te right,I now think I must be left wing.
I never thought I would hear myself say that.In the U.K the right wing is a lamb compared to here. But it is as well to rmember that it was Tony Blair and his left wing government which took the U.K into war,against the will of pretty welll all the country and on the back of some now disproved facts.
So I think sometimes it is more to do with personality than politics.
Tony Blair was young when he came to power.He ws going to change Britain beyond all recognition.He did, he took us into a war we did not want.He promised no more sleaze and his govenment had some of the worst scandals ever.
I give up on politicians,they all become corrupted by power. That I think is the crux of the matter. It must take a very very strong person to remain uncorrupted by the truly enormous amount of power they have,
Is it possible to be a leader and honest,or is that just a contradiction in terms. If so, then the best option wuld be for a form of coalition government, where there is a counter balance at all times.

I think it's a contradiction in terms. Yes. So far, we have caught ALL THREE candidates in lies, including Barack Obama. By the way, I voted for Barack in the Indiana primaries, and I will vote for him again in the national election this November. But they ALL lie. None of them are honest. Like you said, the enormous power they crave is all too powerful, and they will say or do anything... ANYTHING to obtain it. We can only hope to elect the lesser of the two evils. And in my opinion that would be Barack Obama.

Anybody ANYBODY is better than George Bush. He lied us into a war many Americans opposed in the first place, then attacked the wrong country, and THEN after the TRUTH was revealed, claimed he based the invasion "on the facts at the time". Well alrighty then!

Lord have mercy.  ::)  >:(  >:(
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #126 on: June 02, 2008, 03:41:17 am »
I actuallythought I was right wing until we moved here. The right wing here is bordering on fascist.They are so far over to te right,I now think I must be left wing.

It's okay to be left wing if that's what you want to be, Optom3. That is your choice in a free country. But please don't lump all in the right wing as being the same. All right wingers aren't fascist/all left wingers aren't socialists.

The left wing extremists and the right wing extremists BOTH have their demons.

The rest just have a difference of opinions. If not, we'd be a one-party state like China or Cuba.
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #127 on: June 02, 2008, 03:49:33 am »
I actuallythought I was right wing until we moved here. The right wing here is bordering on fascist.They are so far over to te right,I now think I must be left wing.

It's okay to be left wing if that's what you want to be, Optom3. That is your choice in a free country. But please don't lump all in the right wing as being the same. All right wingers aren't fascist/all left wingers aren't socialists.

The left wing extremists and the right wing extremists BOTH have their demons.

The rest just have a difference of opinions. If not, we'd be a one-party state like China or Cuba.


Well said Shasta!! :)

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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #128 on: June 02, 2008, 03:55:24 am »
Well said Shasta!! :)



:) :-*  You and I should run, David.  :P ;D

J/K !!!!
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Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #129 on: June 02, 2008, 06:32:52 am »
Please also remember that most people are not "liberal" about everything or "conservative" about everything.

I tend to be "liberal" about social issues and very "conservative" about fiscal issues.

The Bush administration claims to be "conservative," but they spend money like it was water.

It's gotten to the point where the meanings of the terms have become so muddled that their primary value is as epithets.


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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #130 on: June 02, 2008, 11:13:10 am »
:) :-*  You and I should run, David.  :P ;D

J/K !!!!


This is such an interesting thread for me to read, as an Australian.

The media here in Australia is full of the forthcoming election.

I read a distressing article recently that hypothesized about the possibility (probability?) of Obama being a potential assassination target, if elected.

Is this so? Would he be more at risk than, say, Clinton or McCain?

γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #131 on: June 02, 2008, 08:56:18 pm »
There were allegations of plans for an attempt to assassinate President Bush, SR.  There was one, of course--almost successful, on Ronald Reagan. And an attempt on Gerald Ford. As of late--it seems to be more dangerous to be a Republican. With Barack Obama being African American, he probably has had threats from some radical organization -- the KKK is, unfortunately, alive and well in the U.S. I haven't heard or read anything about that Kerry, but any American president is a target for crazies. I hope we never have another one like President Kennedy's. All of the candidates should have VERY tight security, IMO. I think security must be excellent because as many Bush haters as there are, I'm sure he has been in danger at some time or another.
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #132 on: June 03, 2008, 07:03:58 pm »
There were allegations of plans for an attempt to assassinate President Bush, SR.  There was one, of course--almost successful, on Ronald Reagan. And an attempt on Gerald Ford. As of late--it seems to be more dangerous to be a Republican. With Barack Obama being African American, he probably has had threats from some radical organization -- the KKK is, unfortunately, alive and well in the U.S. I haven't heard or read anything about that Kerry, but any American president is a target for crazies. I hope we never have another one like President Kennedy's. All of the candidates should have VERY tight security, IMO. I think security must be excellent because as many Bush haters as there are, I'm sure he has been in danger at some time or another.

I think I remember hearing something about it Kerry and Shasta. I remember hearing Barack Obama had to get much more security because of death threats. I don't remember whether it was CNN, MSNBC or my local news that reported it. But I DO remember hearing it. And now that he is only 11 delegates away from the nomination, and it looks like he will be the Democratic nominee, he will probably need even more protection.

It's a shame we live in such a violent world. And I agree with you Shasta. I'm sure President Bush has been in close proximity to danger many times, both here in the US and abroad. Didn't they find an unexploded grenade on the ground during a speech he was giving in Georgia (the country)? And Georgia is a fairly pro American country too.
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Offline optom3

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #133 on: June 03, 2008, 11:38:34 pm »
:) :-*  You and I should run, David.  :P ;D

J/K !!!!


Well If I could vote here, you would have my vote for the voice of reason!!!!!!
 I guess as a non U.S citizen it is still all a bit confusing to me. I will say that Florida is very right wing.Some of the things I have heard on the radio and from people we know ,have just made my toes curl. It seems very homophobic,anti feminist,etc. My oldest son has come back from school saying some things that have had him grounded by me.
These same peole who say such defamatory things, about all sorts of people are then at church on Sunday.Yet they cannot see the irony of that,are we not told to love our neighbour as ourselves. Honestly I give up,but my oldest knows it will not be tolerated under my roof.The more moderate people here seem to be from out of state.
I guess  have just been shocked by people, who I thought were like me ,say things that I would not even think, let alone say.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #134 on: June 03, 2008, 11:56:43 pm »
Well If I could vote here, you would have my vote for the voice of reason!!!!!!
 I guess as a non U.S citizen it is still all a bit confusing to me. I will say that Florida is very right wing.Some of the things I have heard on the radio and from people we know ,have just made my toes curl. It seems very homophobic,anti feminist,etc. My oldest son has come back from school saying some things that have had him grounded by me.
These same peole who say such defamatory things, about all sorts of people are then at church on Sunday.Yet they cannot see the irony of that,are we not told to love our neighbour as ourselves. Honestly I give up,but my oldest knows it will not be tolerated under my roof.The more moderate people here seem to be from out of state.
I guess  have just been shocked by people, who I thought were like me ,say things that I would not even think, let alone say.

Indiana, where I live is also very right wing, religious and conservative Fiona! It can be horrible here for a gay man. I'd leave immediately if it wasn't for my Dad. He's ill and I have to stay here. It really isn't TOO bad in Indianapolis, but once you leave the city the homophobia and racism becomes almost unbearable. The KKK is also still very strong here. They really don't do too much anymore, except for their little protests on the steps of the state capitol once or twice a year. But they are here, none the less. :(
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #135 on: June 03, 2008, 11:59:53 pm »
LOL, Optom3 -- if you voted for David and me, you'd have two softies in the White House. I don't think either of us is mean enough to do the job.  ;D And the place would be overrun with dogs and kittens. But thanks for the vote of confidence.  ;)

I have listened to all three senators speeches tonight. Really -- Hillary had the best speech. Hers was sort of supposed to be a concession, but, as the newsmen said, she seemed to be taking a victory lap. Isn't she another case of more popular votes/fewer delegates?

Mack's was pretty straightforward, but too laid back and unexciting. The setting/audience added to the snorefest.

Obama's was a fantastic bit of rhetoric full of word pictures and metaphors, but not too much substance.

Now the big deal on the news circuit -- will Obama ask Clinton to be the veep. May be, but I just don't see them getting along. I think they'd be a shoo-in if it happens, tho. If not -- there will probably be a battle hard fought.

They did draw the parallel of Kennedy and Johnson being running mates even tho there was no love lost between them and their staffs.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #136 on: June 04, 2008, 12:13:37 am »
LOL, Optom3 -- if you voted for David and me, you'd have two softies in the White House. I don't think either of us is mean enough to do the job.  ;D And the place would be overrun with dogs and kittens. But thanks for the vote of confidence.  ;)



 :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:


Boy, isn't THAT the truth!

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Offline Kerry

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #137 on: June 04, 2008, 09:35:52 am »
  ;D And the place would be overrun with dogs and kittens.


What a lovely thought.  :D
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

injest

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #138 on: June 06, 2008, 01:04:19 am »
no ponies??

 :'( :'(

Offline Lynne

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #139 on: June 06, 2008, 01:09:06 am »
Here's a random thought, probly worthy of its own thread.

From a political/governing POV:

We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em.
"Laß sein. Laß sein."

Offline jstephens9

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #140 on: June 09, 2008, 03:41:56 pm »
Well I heard yesterday afternoon that Obama got the nomination. I can't really say I am happy about that, but after going to the Roundup I discovered that I don't really care. What I do care about is meeting and being around such wonderful people as I was. Those people are first and foremost in my mind right now and I truly could care less who is president. In the end it will probably not make much difference anyway. It was good to be away from the news world and in the real world which was full of friends.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #141 on: June 18, 2008, 08:20:25 pm »
I'm hearing that speculators are part of the problem with high gas prices -- Congress has to make it so that speculators have a harder time -- make them responsible for putting up more $$ than they are required to now.

McCain and Obama both have deficiencies when it comes to the gas crisis. Whichever one gets on that bandwagon is going to win the election most likely.

The surge is working -- the media is not reporting that because that would be counterproductive for the left -- and the media, as we all know, is biased. Too bad we didn't start out with David Petraus and the surge at the very beginning--things would have turned out differently.

McCain sees that the surge is working and even tho the far left ads about "please don't send baby Timmy to Iraq, Mr. McCain" are propaganda (the military is voluntary anyway) -- I think that McCain would handle the Iraq situation, as well as other foreign relations, better than Obama. If he will also get on the gas issue, (and doesn't make some critical mistake--which could happen to either candidate) I think he'll win.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #142 on: June 18, 2008, 11:43:10 pm »
There were allegations of plans for an attempt to assassinate President Bush, SR.  There was one, of course--almost successful, on Ronald Reagan. And an attempt on Gerald Ford. As of late--it seems to be more dangerous to be a Republican. With Barack Obama being African American, he probably has had threats from some radical organization -- the KKK is, unfortunately, alive and well in the U.S. I haven't heard or read anything about that Kerry, but any American president is a target for crazies. I hope we never have another one like President Kennedy's. All of the candidates should have VERY tight security, IMO. I think security must be excellent because as many Bush haters as there are, I'm sure he has been in danger at some time or another.

there were actually two attempts on President Ford's life in the brief time he was in office during the mid 1970's. One attempt was thwarted by a gay man, who I believe tackled the would be shooter.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #143 on: June 18, 2008, 11:48:07 pm »

McCain and Obama both have deficiencies when it comes to the gas crisis. Whichever one gets on that bandwagon is going to win the election most likely.


that may be happening now, as both McCain and Pres Bush are attempting to force the hand of the Democrats in Congress on the drilling issue offshore and in the public lands out west and in AK. The public wants a solution to this crisis and it isn't hard to paint a picture that it was the Democrats in Congress along with Pres Clinton who repeatedly blocked drilling in ANWAR and offshore back in the 1990's. I will be very surprised if the Democrats go along with the Pres on opening the outer continental shelf to drilling, and there is the issue.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #144 on: June 18, 2008, 11:57:27 pm »
Latest Zogby polls from Newmax shows:

Zogby: 60% Favor Domestic Oil Drilling

The mood of Americans has improved slightly but remains gloomy this month, as high gasoline prices cause many to consider making significant changes in their lives—including how often they drive, where they go on vacation and how often they dine out, a new Reuters/Zogby poll shows.

The survey shows 58% considering changing driving habits due to high gasoline prices; 60% in favor of domestic oil drilling
 
The Reuters/Zogby Index, which measures American confidence, has risen slightly to 90.4, from 87.9 in May, and remains just above the all-time low of 87.7 it hit in March. The Reuters/Zogby Index includes 10 poll questions that gauge perception of the state of the country and the economy. The telephone survey of 1,113 likely voters nationwide was conducted June 12-14, 2008. It carries a margin of error of +/- 3.0 percentage points.
 

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #145 on: June 19, 2008, 03:38:12 am »
there were actually two attempts on President Ford's life in the brief time he was in office during the mid 1970's. One attempt was thwarted by a gay man, who I believe tackled the would be shooter.

Was he controversial? I can't remember that. I know a lot of people were kinda mad that he pardoned Nixon. I was glad that he did. Wasn't one of his would-be assassins a woman?
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #146 on: June 19, 2008, 11:47:06 am »
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/28/ap/politics/mainD8M9IL2G2.shtml

here is information about the 2 women who attempted to assasinate Pres Ford on two separate occasions.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #147 on: June 19, 2008, 12:51:36 pm »
Thanks, brokeplex.

Interesting. I didn't know both attempts were by women. Wonder what he did to tick them off that badly? I guess the one from the Manson crew was drugged out. I wonder what kind of extra security he had after 2 attempts in less than a month.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline brokeplex

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #148 on: June 19, 2008, 01:24:12 pm »
It was a strange time, that aftermath period after Nixon's resignation. I was attending a school in Europe when Ford first assumed office before I went off to attend college at UT. I remember the surreal quality to the both events, they even seemed staged to me as I was reading about the attempted assassinations in French and Spanish newspapers.

I did get to see Pres Ford when he came thru Madrid while I was in the city. When I got back to the States, I discovered all of this fuss being made about the Georgia Gov, Jimmy Carter. Until "Jimma" won the Iowa caucuses, we all thought that either Hubert Humphrey or Scoop Jackson would be the nominee of the Democrats. After listening just one time to Carter, I immediately went to the Ford campaign in Austin and signed on to seal envelopes, hand out flyers, do anything to help Pres Ford carry TX in November.

Offline KristinDaBomb

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #149 on: July 15, 2008, 01:26:50 am »
I want Obama to win. But who WILL win? I'm not so sure.
xoxo

~Kristin~

<3

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #150 on: August 20, 2008, 08:11:17 pm »
Poll shows McCain in 5-point lead over Obama

Finally. Keep it up, John McCain. (I know you don't look at polls until 2 weeks before the election, but I'm just happy he was ahead today.)

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/international_politics/obama+trails+mccain+in+the+polls+as+hillarys+supporters+switch+sides/2425912
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #151 on: August 20, 2008, 09:21:21 pm »
Poll shows McCain in 5-point lead over Obama

Finally. Keep it up, John McCain. (I know you don't look at polls until 2 weeks before the election, but I'm just happy he was ahead today.)

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/international_politics/obama+trails+mccain+in+the+polls+as+hillarys+supporters+switch+sides/2425912


I'm happy you're happy about it, but I'm not happy about it at all. In other words, I'm happy you're happy, but I'd be happier if I was happy. Therefore, I am not very happy, but since I'm happy you're happy I'm a little bit happy.

 :laugh:  :laugh:

Did that make any sense?
Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #152 on: August 20, 2008, 10:17:34 pm »

I'm happy you're happy about it, but I'm not happy about it at all. In other words, I'm happy you're happy, but I'd be happier if I was happy. Therefore, I am not very happy, but since I'm happy you're happy I'm a little bit happy.

 :laugh:  :laugh:

Did that make any sense?

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I don't know if it makes sense, but I get it. LOL!!!

You Obamaites have had the top spot in the polls for the first 3 months; we McCainians won't mind having it for the next 3!  ;D
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #153 on: August 26, 2008, 10:26:41 pm »
Hillary and I agree on some things.  ;)  


[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMVOT-IH8sg[/youtube]
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #154 on: August 28, 2008, 11:19:51 pm »
I didn't get to see the whole speech, but I thought he did a good job with what I did hear. Great delivery. If I believed that I'd really be able to have a savings account if he were president, and that the world was really going to be all light and roses--I'd be tempted to vote for him. Great theater, but same old-same old as far as promises that probably won't be kept.

I'm not saying it will change that much with McCain either. My circumstances are basically no better or no worse no matter which party is in office. It's just that I agree with McCain on Right to Life and I agree with him about the terrorism problem. So I'd prefer him to win the election.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


injest

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #155 on: August 28, 2008, 11:22:50 pm »
I didn't get to see the whole speech, but I thought he did a good job with what I did hear. Great delivery. If I believed that I'd really be able to have a savings account if he were president, and that the world was really going to be all light and roses--I'd be tempted to vote for him. Great theater, but same old-same old as far as promises that probably won't be kept.

I'm not saying it will change that much with McCain either. My circumstances are basically no better or no worse no matter which party is in office. It's just that I agree with McCain on Right to Life and I agree with him about the terrorism problem. So I'd prefer him to win the election.


I agree...but if wishes were horses, beggers would ride. I am worried about the state of the world today and want someone to talk about reality, not fantasies. How is he going to pay for all the promises he is making? I missed that part of the speech.

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #156 on: August 28, 2008, 11:48:25 pm »
Quote
How is he going to pay for all the promises he is making? I missed that part of the speech.

He mentioned cutting corporate subsidies and tax loopholes (huge amounts of $).   He mentioned cutting inefficient government programs, and better, more efficient administration of remaining ones.   He mentioned ending the war in Iraq (which would save us 10 billion dollars a month).   

He also mentioned preventing more unwanted pregnancies.  He didn't place that in the context of saving gov't money, but the end result of that would be less of a burden on public assistance programs (WIC, medicare, medicaid) and the public education system.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #157 on: August 30, 2008, 08:26:43 pm »
I agree...but if wishes were horses, beggers would ride. I am worried about the state of the world today and want someone to talk about reality, not fantasies. How is he going to pay for all the promises he is making? I missed that part of the speech.

he will pay for it with your tax dollars.

injest

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Re: Barack Obama vs. John McCain
« Reply #158 on: August 30, 2008, 08:32:02 pm »
he will pay for it with your tax dollars.

I dont pay IN that much!!