The imagined power of BBM ?

[optom3]

In the S.S, when Ennis discovers Jack and his shirts,he smells them,hoping for some scent of Jack and BBM.Apart from the fact that part makes me cry,every time I read it.It goes on to say,there was no real scent of it, "only the memory of it,the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands."

That sentence has always intrigued me,does it mean that for Ennis,there was a brief time,i.e on Brokeback, where even he felt that anything was possible,hence the, imagined power phrase.
Being an incurable romantic I would love to think that.Simply because it then makes me review their time on BBM and feel that they were both truly happy there.
It does however mean that if that is the case,then BBM was the only time of pure 100% undiluted happiness.So the subsequent meetings, were all to some extent tarnished.It also fits in with the dozy embrace scene,where in the S.S Jack remembers it as the only perfect unmarred moment,from which maybe they had never advanced.
If they at least had one perfect moment,then it becomes slightly more bearable,for me anyway.

[sel]

Hi Optom3,

I've always felt that that 'imagined power' was there, and , like you say, where even Ennis felt that anything was possible. But there's another important passage in the S.S. which to me means that Ennis, although later, realises that there had been a time and a place where  they had created such happiness and where they had had  the power to   change the directions of their lives if only he/they had wanted to.

“That summer”, said Ennis, “When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by long, long a while.”.

But by then he had commitments, a wife and a daughter.

To me that I shouldn't a let you out of my sights , is equal to I love you, and said by Ennis, Ennis who can't bring himself to say much, is simply amazing.
I love the film, but how I wish that part of the dialogue at the Motel  had been included in it.

[Artiste]

Merci optom !!

Ennis and Jack more than one perfect moment, thank goodness !!

[optom3]

Hi Optom3,

I've always felt that that 'imagined power' was there, and , like you say, where even Ennis felt that anything was possible. But there's another important passage in the S.S. which to me means that Ennis, although later, realises that there had been a time and a place where  they had created such happiness and where they had had  the power to   change the directions of their lives if only he/they had wanted to.

“That summer”, said Ennis, “When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by long, long a while.”.

But by then he had commitments, a wife and a daughter

To me that I shouldn't a let you out of my sights , is equal to I love you, and said by Ennis, Ennis who can't bring himself to say much, is simply amazing.
I love the film, but how I wish that part of the dialogue at the Motel  had been included in it.

Some  of the saddest few words in the S.S "too late then"but it would always have been too late,as Ennis never came to terms with his feelings until too late as well.He knew what he felt,but was too emotionally crippled bychildhood just to go with it.
I sometimes go off into fantasy land,where anything would have been possible while they stayed on BBM, but as son as they left to come down,they descended not only the mountain phsically, they also had to descend or come down from the emotional high they had been on,back to terra firm.

[Artiste]

Back down from their Borkeback Mountain to realism or anti-life, unfortunately, in too many some ways !!

[BlissC]

Some  of the saddest few words in the S.S "too late then"but it would always have been too late,as Ennis never came to terms with his feelings until too late as well.He knew what he felt,but was too emotionally crippled bychildhood just to go with it.

I don't know whether it would always have been too late. There are times in the SS and in the film where I get the sense that very occasionally, just for a split second, that Ennis is on the edge of making a life-changing decision, maybe that he's not even consciously doing, before he pulls back and retreats into the "safe" world of his life in Riverton.

Probably the two that spring to mind are the post-divorce scene when he sends Jack away, and (maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part), but he kind of steps forward at one point as though he's going to say something to Jack before the camera flashes back to Jack and that awful desolate look and he drives away, and then again in the final camping trip when he seems almost at one point by the side of the truck as though he's going to react to Jack with something more than the public "we're-just-fishing-buddies" act he puts on to the world and actually open up and say something meaningful...before again he misses the chance and Jack launches into the "I wish I knew how to quit you" speech. Like I said, possibly wishful thinking on my part, but it seems at times that he's wrestling with himself and sometimes the real Ennis seems only to be a moment away.

But there's another important passage in the S.S. which to me means that Ennis, although later, realises that there had been a time and a place where  they had created such happiness and where they had had  the power to   change the directions of their lives if only he/they had wanted to.

“That summer”, said Ennis, “When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by long, long a while.”.

But by then he had commitments, a wife and a daughter.

As Sel said though, I think Ennis's realisation that he shouldn't have let Jack go was a chance to change the course of their lives, but of course whether Ennis felt obligated to stick with the life he'd created in Riverton or whether his inaction and the feeling it was too late was a product of his fears and his hang-ups, ultimately he chose not to use that power. The important thing though for me is that Ennis recognised that he made a mistake in letting Jack go, and so early in the story, and for me that suggests that the power of the mountain and the effect it had on both of them wasn't imagined.

In the S.S, when Ennis discovers Jack and his shirts,he smells them,hoping for some scent of Jack and BBM.Apart from the fact that part makes me cry,every time I read it.It goes on to say,there was no real scent of it, "only the memory of it,the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands."

That sentence has always intrigued me,does it mean that for Ennis,there was a brief time,i.e on Brokeback, where even he felt that anything was possible,hence the, imagined power phrase.
Being an incurable romantic I would love to think that.Simply because it then makes me review their time on BBM and feel that they were both truly happy there.
It does however mean that if that is the case,then BBM was the only time of pure 100% undiluted happiness.So the subsequent meetings, were all to some extent tarnished.It also fits in with the dozy embrace scene,where in the S.S Jack remembers it as the only perfect unmarred moment,from which maybe they had never advanced.
If they at least had one perfect moment,then it becomes slightly more bearable,for me anyway.

For me, that "imagined" in that sentence is an odd word, because as AP always said, the choice of every word in the SS is vital, but to me, the power of Brokeback Mountain isn't imagined, because it's that memory of their time on the mountain and the perfection they had there that in a large part carries them through the 20 years. I guess you could explain it by the feeling that he imagined on the mountain that everything was possible. If you take the phrase at face value though, the only imagined part is the scent of the shirts, but there's also something about that phrase and the wording, "the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands", that to me suggests that with Jack gone, the shirts are the only physical proof of the time on the mountain, and after the pain and unfairness of it all Ennis seems almost to be doubting that it really happened, almost in a dream-like state (which I guess fits in with the 'panels of the dream' idea) - maybe that's where the "imagined" comes in?

[Artiste]

At least, Ennis and Jack's love as a couple of men, was concrete and real up on Brokeback Mountain !!

Does that mean that gay coupling or individual gay life, can ONLY be imagined ? ?

[Artiste]

There, on that like-magic mountain, they could be lovers, like it was hanging out, to use the current expression, without not having too much harm be done to them because of their love !!

Is that so to-day too ??

[optom3]

I don't know whether it would always have been too late. There are times in the SS and in the film where I get the sense that very occasionally, just for a split second, that Ennis is on the edge of making a life-changing decision, maybe that he's not even consciously doing, before he pulls back and retreats into the "safe" world of his life in Riverton.

Probably the two that spring to mind are the post-divorce scene when he sends Jack away, and (maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part), but he kind of steps forward at one point as though he's going to say something to Jack before the camera flashes back to Jack and that awful desolate look and he drives away, and then again in the final camping trip when he seems almost at one point by the side of the truck as though he's going to react to Jack with something more than the public "we're-just-fishing-buddies" act he puts on to the world and actually open up and say something meaningful...before again he misses the chance and Jack launches into the "I wish I knew how to quit you" speech. Like I said, possibly wishful thinking on my part, but it seems at times that he's wrestling with himself and sometimes the real Ennis seems only to be a moment away.

As Sel said though, I think Ennis's realisation that he shouldn't have let Jack go was a chance to change the course of their lives, but of course whether Ennis felt obligated to stick with the life he'd created in Riverton or whether his inaction and the feeling it was too late was a product of his fears and his hang-ups, ultimately he chose not to use that power. The important thing though for me is that Ennis recognised that he made a mistake in letting Jack go, and so early in the story, and for me that suggests that the power of the mountain and the effect it had on both of them wasn't imagined.
 

For me, that "imagined" in that sentence is an odd word, because as AP always said, the choice of every word in the SS is vital, but to me, the power of Brokeback Mountain isn't imagined, because it's that memory of their time on the mountain and the perfection they had there that in a large part carries them through the 20 years. I guess you could explain it by the feeling that he imagined on the mountain that everything was possible. If you take the phrase at face value though, the only imagined part is the scent of the shirts, but there's also something about that phrase and the wording, "the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands", that to me suggests that with Jack gone, the shirts are the only physical proof of the time on the mountain, and after the pain and unfairness of it all Ennis seems almost to be doubting that it really happened, almost in a dream-like state (which I guess fits in with the 'panels of the dream' idea) - maybe that's where the "imagined" comes in?

I cannot quite put my finger on it yet,there is definitely something about the "imagined power" that I feel is eluding me.Did Ennis really commit himself on BBM, more than we realise,which is why he was physically sick once down again.I keep thinking that maybe for a split second on BBM Ennis actually believed they could have it all.Now as he looks back, he wonders if it was all a dream and what he thought was the magic of BBM was just imagination,almost like looking back at something with rose coloured specs on.
I am not sure.I will have to go and think about it again.It drives me nuts when I feel I am just grappling with somethng and not quite comming to grips with it.

[sel]

The important thing though for me is that Ennis recognised that he made a mistake in letting Jack go, and so early in the story, and for me that suggests that the power of the mountain and the effect it had on both of them wasn't imagined.
 

That's exactly how I feel.

[Artiste]

Merci optom !

You ask:
       Did Ennis really commit himself on BBM, more than we realise...           

Optom, and may I reply: Yes !!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[BlissC]

I cannot quite put my finger on it yet,there is definitely something about the "imagined power" that I feel is eluding me.Did Ennis really commit himself on BBM, more than we realise,which is why he was physically sick once down again.I keep thinking that maybe for a split second on BBM Ennis actually believed they could have it all.Now as he looks back, he wonders if it was all a dream and what he thought was the magic of BBM was just imagination,almost like looking back at something with rose coloured specs on.
I am not sure.I will have to go and think about it again.It drives me nuts when I feel I am just grappling with somethng and not quite comming to grips with it.

That's interesting Fiona. The extent of Ennis's commitment's something I can't put my finger on either. Sometimes I wonder if I'm getting the original SS mixed up with the various fanfics out there. The "Missing Motel Moments/Pine Creek/Warmest Week of the Year" trilogy particularly (which I love) kind of fills in the blanks in the SS, but Ennis in them is a little more open than in the original SS I think - not totally out of character or anything, but just a little more open and a little more talkative at times I feel. Maybe that's why I feel there's something from their time on the mountain that we're not seeing?

[optom3]

That's exactly how I feel.

It is how I would like to feel.
I just think I am missing something.The 2 words imagined and power are very specific.Even their order is I suspect a thought through thing.If it was the power of imagaination,how different would the meaning be? The power of our imagination is infinite.But imagined power,is almost the opposite.Something we thought existed does not.
this will drive me more nuts than I already am.

[Artiste]

Optom:         "imagined power" that I feel is eluding          ... you !

Imagine that too for Ennis and Jack !!

Remember that imagination is, at least, powerful !!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

Optom:         "imagined power" that I feel is eluding          ... you !

Imagine that too for Ennis and Jack !!

Remember that imagination is, at least, powerful !!

Au revoir,
hugs!

I agree which is why I think she deliberately wrote "the imagined power of BBM)  and not the power of imagination. In the prologue we know Ennis had the powerof imagination as he has been dreaming of Jack. In the final few sentences we read that his dreams are quite graphic,almost horror/comic. So Ennis has a powerful imagination,which he uses when he escapes the tedium of life and sleeps dreaming.
So we know about the power of imagination.
What is niggling me is that Proulx chose to deliberately write,imagined power.So from that it seems we are
to infer that something is incorrectly presumed,as it was just imagined and not real. Like The dreams Ennis has of Jack being imagined not real.
But if that is the case, and as the imagined power of BBM iin relation to Ennis,he must have at some point thought all things were possible up there.No matter how fleetingly,Ennis at least for a time had hope.He imagined the power of BBM to make all things possible.Too late he realises that is the point he should have reached out and grabbed it.
Hence past tense, he once imagined, now he just relies on his imagination creating some relief through his dreams.
I do not know If I am making any sense here at all???

[mariez]

"only the memory of it,the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands."

That's such a beautiful, but heartbreaking line.  To me, it means that Ennis always thought of Brokeback Mountain as a kind of fairy tale place  - that had nothing to do with "real" life.  He thought it was Brokeback Mountain that had "the power" - but he was only "imagining" that.  The real "power" was the love he and Jack shared - the evidence of which he is now holding in his hands.  And the terrible irony is that he was incapable of understanding that or accepting it without the tragedy of Jack's death and the discovery of the shirts.  The destructive rural homophobia was embedded too deeply. To make an imperfect (and over-simplified) analogy, it's kind of like when the Good Witch told Dorothy that the power to get back home to Kansas was always within her – Oz was an illusion. Anyway, I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's how I read it and if I start thinking about it too much, it makes me tear up all over again 

Marie

[optom3]

"only the memory of it,the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands."

That's such a beautiful, but heartbreaking line.  To me, it means that Ennis always thought of Brokeback Mountain as a kind of fairy tale place  - that had nothing to do with "real" life.  He thought it was Brokeback Mountain that had "the power" - but he was only "imagining" that.  The real "power" was the love he and Jack shared - the evidence of which he is now holding in his hands.  And the terrible irony is that he was incapable of understanding that or accepting it without the tragedy of Jack's death and the discovery of the shirts.  The destructive rural homophobia was embedded too deeply. To make an imperfect (and over-simplified) analogy, it's kind of like when the Good Witch told Dorothy that the power to get back home to Kansas was always within her – Oz was an illusion. Anyway, I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's how I read it and if I start thinking about it too much, it makes me tear up all over again 

Marie

Thankyou, that makes perfect sense to me.I agree it is a simply breathtaking line.Ennis had the power within hmself all the time.He was the one who could have in effect changed the fickle finger of fate.The power he imagined BBM to have was a mirror of his own,he just did not see it.
The whole thing fits beautifully, even the fact that his powerful imagination would not let him forget childhood traumas and so in effect he is actually rendered powerless by that very power.
What a tangled web of emotions.It all fits together and is all related,the dreams,power,imagination, BBM, and even mirrors.None of it can really be separated, it as complex as the emotions themselves.It is basically the human condition.
Thanks for the opinion,

[BlissC]

"only the memory of it,the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands."

That's such a beautiful, but heartbreaking line.  To me, it means that Ennis always thought of Brokeback Mountain as a kind of fairy tale place  - that had nothing to do with "real" life.  He thought it was Brokeback Mountain that had "the power" - but he was only "imagining" that.  The real "power" was the love he and Jack shared - the evidence of which he is now holding in his hands.  And the terrible irony is that he was incapable of understanding that or accepting it without the tragedy of Jack's death and the discovery of the shirts.  The destructive rural homophobia was embedded too deeply. To make an imperfect (and over-simplified) analogy, it's kind of like when the Good Witch told Dorothy that the power to get back home to Kansas was always within her – Oz was an illusion. Anyway, I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's how I read it and if I start thinking about it too much, it makes me tear up all over again 

Marie

Marie, I think you may have just hit the nail on the head there! And yes, it does make perfect sense.

I think you're right - for both of them maybe, but especially for Ennis, Brokeback was a memory of something that was perfect, and in hindsight and with the "rose tinted" distant memory, with emotions that were so strong, the mountain was built up to be an almost magical place, a place so magical they could never go back there because that might break the spell. The real power though was their love, and as you say, the only evidence of that which remained was the shirts. I agree with Fiona also - AP definitely chose those words deliberately, and the ordering of the words also. Also some very interesting thoughs on the power of imagination, and Ennis's imagination. I'd never really thought about Ennis as being imaginative before, I guess because he's very closed and short on words, but looking at those lines again now in light of Fiona's comments, story Ennis definitely does have an imagination, though that doesn't come across in movie Ennis in the same way.

[Artiste]

Merci optom !

You say Ennis: he should have reached out and ...     grabbed it.
Hence past tense, he once imagined, now he just relies on his imagination creating some relief through his dreams     
...........

Optom, to me, Ennis did grab it to the best he could: he married a lady (and that is bad to most persons even in the USA, unfortunately) because they are ignorant or jealous !!

And he could NOT marry another male since that is against the law and too many peoples do not want that because they are ignorant there too !! And even if that will or is law, too many are two faced to it even to-day !!


Sad facts about society now becoming islamic in the USA !!

Au revoir,
hugs !

[BlissC]

I fail to see what's bad about marrying a lady, unless you're talking about Ennis specifically, in which case him marrying was a compromise he made because of expectations, a sense of duty, and many other complex reasons previously discussed. Ennis didn't reach out and grab it - that's the whole point! If he had he may not have ended up with Jack dead and only two shirts as evidence of their relationship, but in talking about Ennis reaching out and grabbing the opportunity, we're not talking about him marrying Jack. I think for the idea of marriage to work the idea is that it's based on more than "a couple of high altitude fucks once or twice a year"!  (If we're talking marriage though, perhaps they should have considered moving to the UK - at least now we have "civil partnerships".)



...but WHAT THE HELL has being Islamic got to do with either Ennis marrying or not marrying, grabbing opportunities, or the power of Brokeback Mountain? Give it a rest man - you're obsessed!!! 

[Artiste]

If I am obsessed, then so are you ! Touché !

I know that you do not yet or ever will see, unfortunately, the relationship broken or not done by Ennis and Jack, as a gay couple or so, as well as marrying women, as problematic as maybe or likely Annie and the Brokeback Mountain movie forecasts it also as a like a radical muslim or another religion radicalism against gays !

I see that as an extension !! You  don't obviously, right ?

So, give it a rest and maybe you will see clearly later !

There are always two sides to every coin, you know ?

Concerning two fucks, to use your expression, that is there business, and not anybody else !! Surely !

Your own sex escapades are your own ! Unless your are like a muslim with legally 4 wives same time and sell  your children to China to be used not as slaves but really into slavery to-day !

There are many things which are unfair in the BM movie which we need to ponder about ! Life then and life to-day and life tomorrow too !!

No one can be that blind to Annie purposes !! Which are varied, and not only for straight disliking gays ! Nor not for lip-service !

Much need to be said !

BM movie displays much... unsaid yet !

Au revoir,
hugs!

[sel]

The real "power" was the love he and Jack shared

Mariez, Optom3 and BlissC,
I love  your posts, I think I got it too.

Artiste,
Forgive me but on this occasion I don't seem to be able to understand you.

[BlissC]

Well for a start I'm not quite sure what I'm obsessed with. I have only two obsessions, and both of those involve my computer. 

I know that you do not yet or ever will see, unfortunately, the relationship broken or not done by Ennis and Jack, as a gay couple or so, as well as marrying women, as problematic as maybe or likely Annie and the Brokeback Mountain movie forecasts it also as a like a radical muslim or another religion radicalism against gays !

I see that as an extension !! You  don't obviously, right ?

So, give it a rest and maybe you will see clearly later !

There are always two sides to every coin, you know ?

There are indeed two sides to every coin, and yes, had people known about Ennis's relationship outside his marriage, they most probably would not have approved, but they would have disapproved whether his relationship outside the marriage was with a man or a woman. Ennis's marriage to Alma was a marriage of convenience, but gay men don't have a monopoly on  marriages of convenience - they happen the world over for many different reasons, and men and women both gay and straight enter into marriages of convenience, and while society does tend to frown on  marriages of convenience, that has nothing to do with radicalism or religion - it's more about the fact that most people believe that the basis for a marriage is that the two people love each other, not that it's simply convenient for one or both of them.

The only mentions of religion in BBM are Ennis and Jack's conversation about the Pentecost, and Alma mentioning they could go to the church social (three, if you count that Ennis and Alma married in a church). To say that BBM forecasts radical Muslims, or any other relgious radicalism is reading things into it that simply aren't there.

Concerning two fucks, to use your expression, that is there business, and not anybody else !! Surely !

No, that was Jack's expression (last camping trip during his "I wish I knew how to quit you" speech). No-one said it was anyone else's business. My point was that suggesting Ennis would (if he could) marry Jack is stretching things a bit far, when their 20 year relationship, as it happened in the story, was based on a couple of meetings a year as for the many complex reasons Ennis and Jack were never able to live together as a couple, so suggesting that Ennis would marry Jack when he couldn't even accept living with him is not really realistic as the character of Ennis is portrayed.

Your own sex escapades are your own ! Unless your are like a muslim with legally 4 wives same time and sell  your children to China to be used not as slaves but really into slavery to-day !

There are many things which are unfair in the BM movie which we need to ponder about ! Life then and life to-day and life tomorrow too !!

No one can be that blind to Annie purposes !! Which are varied, and not only for straight disliking gays ! Nor not for lip-service !

There's nothing about multiple marriages in BBM that I can recall, and I doubt very much that AP was trying to make a point about Chinese child slaves either when she wrote BBM.

straight disliking gays !

"Straight disliking gays"?  I'm pretty sure the BBM story was never intended to be straight v. gay, and if all "straights" dislike "gays", as your statement seems to suggest, why do a large number of straight members here at Bettermost and on other forums watch the film and read the story many times? Why did a large number of straight people see the film and be strongly affected by it, or at least agree with it's sentiments? Why do large sections of society accept gay relationships as just as valid as straight relationships? (and I'm not saying that everyone in society is). You can't over-generalise and say that all straights dislike gays, any more than you can say that all Muslims are terrorists, though I suspect we've not heard the last of that...

 

[Artiste]

Merci sel !

Of course, may I reply to you.

I myself do not understand all persons every time. With re-reading and thinking, and/or time, later on I come to understand some. No one can understand everything, thank goodness !

At best, imagination as optom says, helps too !!

Make the world go round and happier !!

Au revoir,
hugs!  Let's not forget that we live to imagine and that lives can NOT be otherwise !! Isn't imagination essential ? In Annie story and the BM movie ? And in one's life ?

[optom3]

I remember Proulx once saying that a story/book is not finished or complete, until it has been read.
Which makes me wonder does the imagined power of BBM extend to us the reader/viewer as well. Certainly for a lot of people, myself included,the film and S.S resonate long after the viewing.
In fact for some people it has been life changing.That surely indicates the power of BBM and how it reaches out beyond the pages,firing our imaginations and causing real life changes.
We learn from the missed opportunities of Ennis and so really are empowered by Brokeback.For us the perhaps, the power is more real and less imagined.

[BlissC]

We learn from the missed opportunities of Ennis and so really are empowered by Brokeback.For us the perhaps, the power is more real and less imagined.

So true. I agree entirely.

[Artiste]

Merci optom !

Your saying:       In fact for some people it has been life changing.That surely indicates the power of BBM and how it reaches out beyond the pages,firing our imaginations and causing real life changes.
           
......

May I say therefore serve spark our imagination like Ennis and Jack imagined a better life... maybe ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

Merci optom !

Your saying:       In fact for some people it has been life changing.That surely indicates the power of BBM and how it reaches out beyond the pages,firing our imaginations and causing real life changes.
           
......

May I say therefore serve spark our imagination like Ennis and Jack imagined a better life... maybe ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

I think what Proulx says about a story never being finished until it is read is genius. It is on the surface such a simple thing and yet so eloquent.I wonder how many different endings we all have imagined.The possibilities are probably endless.What Ang did so brilliantly was to give the viewer the same power of imagination that the reader has.
So many times for me, a film has been a let down, having read the book.I find I am spoon fed, and allowed no chance to explore different scenarios within my own mind.
Not so with BBM, the film provides nearly as much scope for imagination as does the book.A simple yet perfect example of less is more.
I am truly in awe of the power of BBM to reach out from both the visual ,and written and touch so many people across such an enormous spectrum.For both the reader and viewer there is nothing imagined about the power of BBM.It is all to real.

For Ennis and Jack,I still think there was one summer idyll where the power was real,where they felt themselves invisible and soared,beyond judgement and reality.

 What Proulx and Ang have done is given us ,if we choose to recognise and seize it,far more lasting power than Jack or Ennis had.The only thing that limits us, is our own fear. We can however learn from Ennis's fear and in effect we have are given the benefit of hindsight in advance, what a gift!!!

I have said it many times but the genius of all involved in, the story,screenplay and film is immeasurable.

I can think of no other work, which has literally coerced (albeit gently) so many to rethink so many aspects of life. So no imagined power there,instead a very real and tangible force.At the risk of sounding OTT, Jack died to set free, not just Ennis but also masses of people across all divides. GENIUS.

[sel]

Agree entirely with post above.

I remember Proulx once saying that a story/book is not finished or complete, until it has been read.
Which makes me wonder does the imagined power of BBM extend to us the reader/viewer as well. Certainly for a lot of people, myself included,the film and S.S resonate long after the viewing.
In fact for some people it has been life changing.That surely indicates the power of BBM and how it reaches out beyond the pages,firing our imaginations and causing real life changes.
We learn from the missed opportunities of Ennis and so really are empowered by Brokeback.For us the perhaps, the power is more real and less imagined.

The short story/movie is simply  what we, the readers/viewers, make of it. We have been profoundly  touched by that imagined power. We haven't been to Brokeback Mountain itself, that's why the power is imagined, nevertheless the power has touched us, like a magic wand.

[Artiste]

Merci optom, and merci sel !!

I agree too with Annie, and the two of you, and may I add that there are also something like things like facts like, in her story, and the BM movie, that we should NEVER forget ??

And even dwell about ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

Merci optom, and merci sel !!

I agree too with Annie, and the two of you, and may I add that there are also something like things like facts like, in her story, and the BM movie, that we should NEVER forget ??

And even dwell about ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

I agree,homophobia is still rife, even in some of the most alleged civilized countries of the free western world.How sad that from 1963 to 2008 some people have not become even slightly more enlightened. That is 45 years !!!! We have managed to send men to the moon,computers have shrunk from the size  of a large room to the palm of a hand. Yet we still  have whole sectors of society, who are homophobic in the extreme,
That is only the free world  at that.When we take into consideration some of the allegedly less free, civilized countries the figures are scary.
For me though, it is the so called civilized super powers who are the most scary.We have always kbown that the countries of the east would be a much harder battle.
How can we ever hope for tolerance there, when we have large swathes of right wing America who have moved no further forward than they were in 1963, yet they class themselves as civilized and above our Eastern counterparts.
Even as a straight womwn I find it not only unacceptable but totally hypocritical.Something along the lines of people in glass houses !!!!!

[Artiste]

Merci optom !

Indeed, you say much and you know that more can be said !

At least, Annie gives us warnings and how to cope, as well as to hope for the better ??

Au revoir,
hugs ! P. S., did you see my lilacs ? The 2 colours-ones ?

[optom3]

Merci optom !

Indeed, you say much and you know that more can be said !

At least, Annie gives us warnings and how to cope, as well as to hope for the better ??

Au revoir,
hugs ! P. S., did you see my lilacs ? The 2 colours-ones ?

Yes I did, they were beautiful. I seem to remember that white lilacs are perfumed but not the purple.Or am I remembering that wrong ?

[Artiste]

Merci optom !

It is the French lilacs which are perfumed ! Not the Japanese ones !

Do you think that Annie gives us warnings ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[BlissC]

Something else has just occurred to me about the imagined power of BBM, and I can't remember if this has already been discussed on this thread...

BBM was a time, even if only for a short time, of perfection for Jack and Ennis. Whether the enduring power of it for them over the years was real or imagined, they were there on Brokeback - they had that time together, and despite Aguirre watching them and everything else, that was *their* time, and it was real.

To us, the power of BBM is immense. Just the fact that over two years after the film's release we're all here and still discussing it speaks volumes, without even going into the full impact of Brokie-ism...

The power of BBM over us too is immense, just as it was over Jack and Ennis, but Jack and Ennis (and I guess I'd better whisper this so it doesn't upset anyone ) lived in a story, in a story world, and though the power of Brokeback over us too has a great hold - the power of the story, of the characters, the places....Brokeback itself doesn't exist. Brokenback Mountain, Wyoming, yes...but not Brokeback Mountain, Wyoming. The movie was filmed in Canada. The Brokeback we see when we think of Jack and Ennis up on the mountain isn't even in Wyoming. Even all we see of the mountain in Canada that "is" Brokeback isn't real, because various aspects of the film and scenes from it - all those hundreds of sheep, the storm scene that was filmed on a bright sunny day....Brokeback in the "real world" itself is imagined, but yet it's hold over all of us is very real.

Reality and imagination blur, but that doesn't make it's power any less, or any less real, just as whatever Brokeback meant to Jack and Ennis was real and even in the end with Jack gone and only two shirts left of that summer on Brokeback, the power was still there, very real, and imagined or not, no-one can take that power away, any more than anyone can take the power of Brokeback from us.

Bliss's philosophical thought for the night...

[Artiste]

Merci Bliss !

Perfection ?

Really they had up there ?


Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Do you think that Ennis and Jack did have some fears when they were lovers on Brokeback Mountain, up there then ?

[optom3]

Do you think that Ennis and Jack did have some fears when they were lovers on Brokeback Mountain, up there then ?

I think it is probably the only time that neither of them had any fears. "they believed themselves invisible" We the viewer know they are being watched,but they do not.So I like to thnk they had that short period where,there was just the two of them,laughing,joking,having sex.Cocooned or so they thought safe up on Brokeback.