Author Topic: The Perfect President  (Read 11493 times)

injest

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The Perfect President
« on: June 25, 2008, 08:52:52 pm »
I would like my President to have a career in public service. A stint in the military would be nice.

He would be honest and charismatic. Stable in his relationships.

He would be liberal on some things, abortion, gay rights; conservative on others: spending, regulation of industry...

basically someone that has common sense and independent of party politics...

what would you want in the 'Perfect President'??

Offline brokeplex

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2008, 04:17:33 pm »
Is it too late to give John Quincy Adams another try?

injest

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2008, 08:24:16 pm »
Is it too late to give John Quincy Adams another try?

I am thinking he is no longer available..

Offline Artiste

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2008, 08:48:35 pm »
Injest:

well said:
      I would like my President to have a career in public service. A stint in the military would be nice.

He would be honest and charismatic. Stable in his relationships.

He would be liberal on some things, abortion, gay rights; conservative on others: spending, regulation of industry...

basically someone that has common sense and independent of party politics...
         

Offline brokeplex

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2008, 10:05:47 pm »
I am thinking he is no longer available..

perhaps not, more the pity. On a more serious note, JQ Adams is exactly the type of statesman which we really do need. He was a man who took principled leadership positions and didn't care about popularity. JQ Adams is one of my heroes, and he actually was at the peak of his career after he was defeated for reelect in 1828 and he went over to the US Congress and was elected as a Rep from his home district in MA. JQ Adams took very unpopular positions in the 1830's and 1840's against the spread of slavery into the western territories. In many ways he was the ideological father of Abraham Lincoln.

We just don't have these types of statesmen and stateswomen today do we? Talk about a complete resume - JQ Adams was very prepared for public life. We need a President who has the experience to show and elicit leadership in all the areas of the Presidency

1) commander in chief - the president must be able to command the respect of the military

2) head of state - the president must be able to represent his or her country abroad, at formal gatherings, and be able to rally the people to his or her  cause

3) chief political leader of his party - the president must be able to cobble together majorities in the congress in order to get the people's business done

4) chief administrator - the president must be able to delegate authority to able administrators in exec branch

we have been so busy lately opining about the possible electoral strategies of the two candidates that I think we are forgetting that we must elect someone who has the ability and the experience to function ably as president.

Offline Artiste

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2008, 10:55:02 pm »
Merci brokeplex:

well said:

    we must elect someone who has the ability and the experience to function ably as president. 
 
           

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2008, 11:03:45 pm »
I don't think our president necessarily has to have military experience.

After all, aren't we wanting a peaceful world or at the very least a country at peace?

If we actually accomplish one of these goals, we're going to have presidents that have never known war, much less served in the military.

Would that be such a bad thing?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2008, 11:08:46 pm »
I don't think our president necessarily has to have military experience.

After all, aren't we wanting a peaceful world or at the very least a country at peace?

If we actually accomplish one of these goals, we're going to have presidents that have never known war, much less served in the military.

Would that be such a bad thing?

yep, and I'd like a world without locks on my doors, no home alarm system, and no theft insurance. but, I haven't quite found that low hole in the wall and the rabbit looking at his watch just yet.   ;)

Offline Artiste

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2008, 11:13:41 pm »
Merci brokeplex !

We used to have like you say, but can we have that again; or are we to blind now to want it again and assure it ?

As you say:
       I'd like a world without locks on my doors, no home alarm system, and no theft insurance.         

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2008, 11:31:17 pm »
yep, and I'd like a world without locks on my doors, no home alarm system, and no theft insurance. but, I haven't quite found that low hole in the wall and the rabbit looking at his watch just yet.   ;)

How about the reserves but never actually served?  ;)

Let's see, can we find a generation or at least a generation X that grew up in a time of no war for this country?

This is what I found:

"Vietnam War"1956-1975

Second Persian Gulf War "Operation Desert Storm" 1991

Everything in between has been very limited conflicts for this country or we were not really at war, just hunting down insurgent or rebels or we had no opposition whatsoever - Grenada, Panama, Libya, Lebanon - and up until Afghanistan in 2001, we had Kosovo as the most 'warlike' conflict.

So an entire generation grew up starting in 1975 and was too young for the Gulf War and while too young to run for president, could still be a Congressperson in 2001 never having been to war or needing to be in the military at all. 

injest

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2008, 11:41:06 pm »
"a lot of people believe in Peace.
but there IS the other kind,
if we want to keep our freedom
we may have to fight again (God forbid)
but if we do fight
we must always fight to win
the fate of a loser is poor
no hope just misery and despair."

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2008, 12:01:22 am »
"a lot of people believe in Peace.
but there IS the other kind,
if we want to keep our freedom
we may have to fight again (God forbid)
but if we do fight
we must always fight to win
the fate of a loser is poor
no hope just misery and despair."


True, but does that mean they have to serve in the military in order to be a good leader?  There have been wonderful leaders who have never served in the military before.

injest

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2008, 12:45:11 am »
True, but does that mean they have to serve in the military in order to be a good leader?  There have been wonderful leaders who have never served in the military before.

I dont' think so, myself....leadership is a requirement I feel...so they could have another background as long as they had that experience

Offline brokeplex

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2008, 09:45:13 am »
All other factors being equal, I would rather have someone who served honorably in the military than someone who did not. The fact that the President of the US is the commander in chief is inescapable - all of the fantasies about the "dawning of the age of aquarius" not withstanding.

And of course if that President not only served honorably but also emerged from his or her service as a widely recognized hero, that is icing on the cake. 

Offline Artiste

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2008, 10:32:29 am »
At least in the USA, the President have to be born in the country !

In Canada, it could be born in another country; what do you think of that ?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2008, 10:56:03 am »
that is very puzzling Artiste. I would like to change my own state constitution so that only native bornTexans can serve as governor, or in the court system or the legislature.  When I vote I look carefully at the amount of time that person has spent in the district he or she is wishing to represent.
I am puzzled that Canadians would wish to elect a non Canadian to their Parliament.

The state of Michigan made a colossal mistake electing a native Canadian as governor, they are now paying for the folly of electing her with probably the worst economic crisis in any state in the Union. As an example of her folly, when the Michigan economy began to turn downward long before the rest of the union, her response was to raise state taxes! This insured that many businesses would simply relocate to another state, causing the Michigan economy to fall further.

Offline Artiste

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2008, 11:25:06 am »
Merci brokeplex !

I find it a surprise that that Governor of Michigan was a foreigner:  canadian-born, and  I do not know how old she was when she went to live in the USA !

You saying:
    I am puzzled that Canadians would wish to elect a non Canadian to their Parliament        ...
and you, broekplex, can guess how it is a puzzle for canadian-borns to see that !

Even some members of the Government of Canada are known foreign-born criminals, and nothing can be done about that - even if some citizens  tried to get them out ! Did you know ?

Your idea about Texan futur governor being born in Texas, I think is valid and should be a task worth to do, strive and realize, I say ! How to acheive that ?

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2008, 07:56:42 pm »
So long as someone is a good leader, it wouldn't matter to me.  You don't have to have served in the military to be a good leader.

Per brokeplex a president emerging from military service a hero would be icing on the cake.  However of course that would mean that that person would have to be a man, seeing as right now, last I heard women are forbidden from serving in combat where they might have a chance to actually become a hero.  So effectively that means - until that is changed - 1/2 the population of the U.S. is excluded from being considered a perfect president by those standards.

Eh.

I believe a society that wastes the abilities of some members of their society by not using them is all the more poorer for it.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2008, 07:59:10 pm »
I think women are allowed in combat now, aren't they?
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2008, 08:08:51 pm »
I think women are allowed in combat now, aren't they?

Dunno.  Last I heard, they were not.  They are able to serve in other areas behind the lines - medical or motorpools - but not to go into combat to fight.

EDITED TO ADD:

Women are moving into combat flying but apparently being part of ground troops is still an issue:

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-militarywomen27-2008may27,0,5521290.story

injest

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2008, 08:14:02 pm »
So long as someone is a good leader, it wouldn't matter to me.  You don't have to have served in the military to be a good leader.

Per brokeplex a president emerging from military service a hero would be icing on the cake.  However of course that would mean that that person would have to be a man, seeing as right now, last I heard women are forbidden from serving in combat where they might have a chance to actually become a hero.  So effectively that means - until that is changed - 1/2 the population of the U.S. is excluded from being considered a perfect president by those standards.

Eh.

I believe a society that wastes the abilities of some members of their society by not using them is all the more poorer for it.

I think that depends on what you call a hero....

There were a group of nurses captured on a Pacific island during WWII, interrred in a POW camp, protected one another, they carried one nurse when she couldn't walk on the march to the camp....I dont' remember all the details because it has been a while...but they were heros in every sense of the word.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2008, 08:16:34 pm »
I think that depends on what you call a hero....

There were a group of nurses captured on a Pacific island during WWII, interrred in a POW camp, protected one another, they carried one nurse when she couldn't walk on the march to the camp....I dont' remember all the details because it has been a while...but they were heros in every sense of the word.

Were they decorated as such?  I mean that's up there with JFK and his PT boat exploits.  Being a hero can mean lots of things, very true.  However, until all such acts are recognized as heroic by society and rewarded (by awards/commendations etc.) they're never going to be on the same par as Audie Murphy.

injest

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2008, 08:19:00 pm »
Were they decorated as such?  I mean that's up there with JFK and his PT boat exploits.  Being a hero can mean lots of things, very true.  However, until all such acts are recognized as heroic by society and rewarded (by awards/commendations etc.) they're never going to be on the same par as Audie Murphy.

I really dont' remember...I read it back when Holocaust first came out.

I will see if I can find it again when I come back...gotta go entertain the ol ball and chain...

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

(ball and chain! I kill me sometimes)

Offline Artiste

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2008, 08:41:56 pm »
It would be good to know injest.

Thanks for bringing these heros up !

Any more ?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2008, 10:01:45 pm »
So long as someone is a good leader, it wouldn't matter to me.  You don't have to have served in the military to be a good leader.

Per brokeplex a president emerging from military service a hero would be icing on the cake.  However of course that would mean that that person would have to be a man, seeing as right now, last I heard women are forbidden from serving in combat where they might have a chance to actually become a hero.  So effectively that means - until that is changed - 1/2 the population of the U.S. is excluded from being considered a perfect president by those standards.

Eh.

I believe a society that wastes the abilities of some members of their society by not using them is all the more poorer for it.

so then by your logic we should diminish the accomplishments of a hero who served his country in combat because in the past women were not allowed in combat? personally I think in todays world that women are allowed in combat as I hear of women in the armed forces becoming casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan. if they are casualties, then they are in combat.

why not just cut to the chase? the argument you have made is just following the lead of Weasley Clark, and it really is nothing more than a rather transparent attempt to diminish the military accomplishments of John McCain without mentioning his name. The Obamacons have such weak arguments in support of their candidate because he has such paper thin accomplishments, including no military service.

But, really it is great that Weasley Clark and others have attempted to diminish McCain's military service, as each and every time McCain's military service is brought up, it helps the McCain campaign in some swing states which I am watching. a bit like John Kerry reminding promilitary voters that he served in Vietnam, it didn't help him and this silliness won't help Obama. 

Offline brokeplex

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2008, 10:06:09 pm »
I think that depends on what you call a hero....

There were a group of nurses captured on a Pacific island during WWII, interrred in a POW camp, protected one another, they carried one nurse when she couldn't walk on the march to the camp....I dont' remember all the details because it has been a while...but they were heros in every sense of the word.

how anyone could not call the nurses who served not only in combat areas of WWII but also in Korea, and Vietnam heroes is beyond me. of course combat nurses are heroes, or would that be heroines? the fact is civilians in war can and frequently are heroes, it isn't just the men in the front lines. heroic efforts produce heroes. one of the few things the old Soviet Union did that made sense is they would call anyone who produced or excelled beyond their expected capacity a hero, and frequently pinned a medal on them.

Offline Artiste

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2008, 10:10:32 pm »
Women are serving in combat in the Canada armed forces in Afghanistan with 40 other countries's forces including the USA; so too are some muslims in Canada there too, as well as gay men and lesbians !!

Hope that I am right !

Clinton made a half decision by don't tell if your gay ? Maybe the next President of the USA will have more real guts ? Hillary would have ? McCain will maybe ?

May I ask ?

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2008, 10:15:01 pm »
so then by your logic we should diminish the accomplishments of a hero who served his country in combat because in the past women were not allowed in combat? personally I think in todays world that women are allowed in combat as I hear of women in the armed forces becoming casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan. if they are casualties, then they are in combat.

No, I think that being a hero from the military is a great thing.  It's also a rare thing and so far, as it's mostly a man's military, to have that criteria as desirable for a president immediately limits those who have the potential to be a good president and excludes a great many others who don't even have the opportunity to try to become a hero.

If you're in combat that makes you a combatant, but one could easily argue that the reason these women are casualties is that they weren't supposed to be nor trained to be combatants and thus got themselves and perhaps others injured/killed.

OK let's cut to the chase.  I read the first few paragraphs of the article where it described women's roles in combat and immediately posted the article.  It answered my and Shasta's question about women in combat.  Then later I went back to read the entire article.  That it turned out to be a critique of McCain was purely accidental.

If we want heroes as presidents, why does it particularly have to be military heroes?  Why not firefighter heroes? Police heroes? 9/11 or other civilian heroes? 

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2008, 10:16:29 pm »
how anyone could not call the nurses who served not only in combat areas of WWII but also in Korea, and Vietnam heroes is beyond me. of course combat nurses are heroes, or would that be heroines? the fact is civilians in war can and frequently are heroes, it isn't just the men in the front lines. heroic efforts produce heroes. one of the few things the old Soviet Union did that made sense is they would call anyone who produced or excelled beyond their expected capacity a hero, and frequently pinned a medal on them.

About the nurses, certainly.  But to call the top grossing, quota-meeting team lead in a factory a 'hero' starts to cheapen the meaning of the word.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2008, 10:35:20 pm »
No, I think that being a hero from the military is a great thing.  It's also a rare thing and so far, as it's mostly a man's military, to have that criteria as desirable for a president immediately limits those who have the potential to be a good president and excludes a great many others who don't even have the opportunity to try to become a hero.

If you're in combat that makes you a combatant, but one could easily argue that the reason these women are casualties is that they weren't supposed to be nor trained to be combatants and thus got themselves and perhaps others injured/killed.

OK let's cut to the chase.  I read the first few paragraphs of the article where it described women's roles in combat and immediately posted the article.  It answered my and Shasta's question about women in combat.  Then later I went back to read the entire article.  That it turned out to be a critique of McCain was purely accidental.

If we want heroes as presidents, why does it particularly have to be military heroes?  Why not firefighter heroes? Police heroes? 9/11 or other civilian heroes? 

This year the presidential campaign is shining yet another light on yet another cultural fault line separating voters into groups. There are those that either don't care about McCain's military service or they chose to actively diminish it. And others for whom his performance in the Vietnam war places him into the hero status. I suspect whether or not McCain's military service is important or not is not debatable, as the divide is just too wide and the incomprehension too deep.

Back in 2004 I had to laugh out loud when I saw that pompous bore Kerry run out on the stage at his convention and salute the crowd and cry "Reporting for duty". The simplistic mindset of the consultants who sent John Kerry out to repeatedly opine that he "served in Vietnam" and then expected that would actually rebound to his favor on election day is again surfacing with consultants for Obama who send surrogates out like Weasely who attempt to diminish McCain's record. These consultants then and now, and the candidates for whom they toil, genuinely do not understand the other side of that divide. And the incomprehension seems to work in both directions.

Offline Artiste

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2008, 10:39:39 pm »
Why not good sense ? For wanting that in everyone who votes and in a President ?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2008, 10:47:25 pm »
sure "good sense" is a "good idea" but you have to define that based on a track record, and one of the candidates just doesn't have a meaninful track record. so how do we get past the hype and the canned speeches and look at what it is that proves or disproves "good sense" about the two candidates?

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Perfect President
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2008, 11:42:12 pm »
sure "good sense" is a "good idea" but you have to define that based on a track record, and one of the candidates just doesn't have a meaninful track record. so how do we get past the hype and the canned speeches and look at what it is that proves or disproves "good sense" about the two candidates?

Personally, I think well of McCain's military record.  It's excellent and very admirable.  Still doesn't change my mind about who I'm likely to vote for president because military experience is the least of my concerns re what I want out of a president.