Author Topic: What if Jack gave Ennis an ultimatum? Come with me to Mexico or it,s over.  (Read 16886 times)

Offline Jane

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Do you think Ennis would have been so terrified at the prospect of never seeing Jack again that he,d have said"to hell with it" and gone with him, or stayed where he was and pined.  Would the thought of knowing that Jack would probably spend the rest of his life picking up male prostitutes driven Ennis so crazy with jealousy it would  be enough to make him go?  Or do you think he,d have tried to get him to stay?  I,ve often wondered that, just wondered what you lot thought. hmmmmmmmmm. :-\ :-\
Always and forever. J&E.xx

Offline opinionista

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I'm not sure what your point is but I don't think Ennis would've changed his mind. Jack does give Ennis a ultimatum when he says "You used to come easy, now is like seeing the Pope" and later in the argument when he adds:

Tell you what, we coulda had a good life together! Fuckin' real good life! Had us a place of our own. But you didn't want it, Ennis! So what we got now is Brokeback Mountain! Everything's built on that! That's all we got, boy, fuckin' all. So I hope you know that, even if you don't never know the rest! You count the damn few times we have been together in nearly twenty years and you measure the short fucking leash you keep me on - and then you ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for needing somethin' I don't hardly never get. You have no idea how bad it gets! I'm not you... I can't make it on a coupla high-altitude fucks once or twice a year! You are too much for me Ennis, you sonofawhoreson bitch! I wish I knew how to quit you.

When Jack says "I wish I knew how to quit you" the first thing Ennis says is "Why don't you?". I know Ennis's answer can be intepreted in many ways, but it made me think that maybe Ennis also thought about the possibility of a break up. I guess Ennis knew deep in his heart Jack wasn't happy anymore. And he didn't know what else to do. Ennis felt he couldn't give Jack what he wanted. He loved him but he couldn't deal with the fact that Jack was a man.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline ednbarby

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I agree.  I don't think anything Jack could have said would have changed his mind, unfortunately.  It took his dying to do that.   :'(
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Offline Jane

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My point is, I just wondered what would have happened. It was just a thought.  yes I know what Jack said to Ennis in their final scene together about the fact that they could have had a good life together.  Like I said, it was just a thought.  Wasnt meant  to start ww3 or anything. ::)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 10:39:05 am by Jane »
Always and forever. J&E.xx

Offline opinionista

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My point is, I just wondered what would have happened. It was just a thought.  yes I know what Jack said to Ennis in their final scene together about the fact that they could have had a good life together.  Like I said, it was just a thought.  Wasnt ment to start ww3 or anything. ::)


It's ok, Its a good thread. I just wanted to make sure what did you mean by it in case I was misunderstanding you or something.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

tiawahcowboy

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Do you think Ennis would have been so terrified at the prospect of never seeing Jack again that he,d have said"to hell with it" and gone with him, or stayed where he was and pined.  Would the thought of knowing that Jack would probably spend the rest of his life picking up male prostitutes driven Ennis so crazy with jealousy it would  be enough to make him go?  Or do you think he,d have tried to get him to stay?  I,ve often wondered that, just wondered what you lot thought. hmmmmmmmmm. :-\ :-\

The ONLY reason that Jack brought up the subject of Mexico in the first place was he was almost 40 years old and because of his bone injuries to doing all of the bull riding before he actually had Lureen as his boss (I prefer the book version) after her old man died, going camping in the high altitudes of Wyoming made him miserable. He wanted to meet in a warmer place. Because of certain orthopedic problems I have, I cannot stand very cold weather either.

IMO, the screenplay writers and/or the movie makers misinterpreted what both Ennis and Jack meant in regard to the subject of Mexico. I would say that what Ennis had heard about Mexico was not about "boys like (Jack);" but, he had heard that queers got killed in Mexico just like in Wyoming. And that is a well-known fact among gays who used to live in Mexico, I heard enough of that from real Mexicans and naturalized Mexican-American citizens.

Since Ennis asked, "Been a Mexico, Jack," Jack decided that he might as well claim he had; but what he was really thinking that he did have sex with guys in much warmer places than the cold mountains of Wyoming, the only places  Ennis wanted to meet Jack. Annie Proulx never wrote in her narrative that Jack actually went to Mexico. In fact, she did not even write what Jack did after he made an unnecessary trip up to Wyoming after Ennis left a phone message that Alma had divorced him. (Hope that sentence makes sense.)

I don't think that Jack even went to Mexico in the first place in the mind of Annie Proulx. Jack misunderstood why Ennis asked if he had been down there and did not ask he why he asked the question. Jack could have responded with, "Why are you asking me if I had been to Mexico, Ennis?" "Mexico" was a simile or metaphorical expression for Jack's sexual activity with other men instead of Ennis.

Actually, in 1967, in the Siesta Motel room in Riverton, Jack suggested that maybe they could go to Denver to live together. Denver can be much warmer in the summer time. I have been there in May, June, July, and August at different times.

Offline ednbarby

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My point is, I just wondered what would have happened. It was just a thought.  yes I know what Jack said to Ennis in their final scene together about the fact that they could have had a good life together.  Like I said, it was just a thought.  Wasnt meant  to start ww3 or anything. ::)

I think it's an excellent question.  Didn't mean to be flippant in my answer.  It's something I've thought about a lot - was there any way Jack could have changed Ennis' mind while he was still alive?  Actually, I wonder if, had he made him an ultimatum - not using Mexico, but using Randall as his fall-back position, and when Ennis inevitably refused, if the thought of Jack living with another man would have been too much for Ennis to bear, not just because of his love for Jack but because of his concern that it would get him killed?  Perhaps if Jack had let Ennis know about his parents' ranch and building the cabin and all that - I think Ennis still would have refused, but again found the thought of him living up there with Randall unbearable, just as he obviously did when he learned about his intention of it from old man Twist before he found the shirts.

In that scenario, what do you think Ennis would have done, Jane?  Would he have lived with that unbearable truth, or would he have tried to do something about it?  He'd already decided he wasn't going to marry Cassie just to try to pass, so in that way, he had started on the road of becoming a fixer instead of a stander.  But would he have had the stones to take it that much further had Jack survived and he knew about Randall?
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tiawahcowboy

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While the following is INSERTED INTO movie's last scene with Jack and Ennis together, Annie Proulx wrote it as being something that happened AFTER the two guys split up in 1983.

The first quote is from the trailhead parking lot and it took place with Ennis talking to Jack, who is already in his own truck ready to drive off. Ennis waited until the last minute to tell Jack that there was a change of plans.

Quote
. . .  Ennis stood as if heart-shot, face grey and deep-lined, grimacing, eyes screwed shut, fists clenched, legs caving, hit the ground on his knees.
   "Jesus," said Jack. "Ennis?" But before he was out of the truck, trying to guess if it was heart attack or the overflow of an incendiary rage, Ennis was back on his feet and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.


In the text, there is triple line spacing between the above and the below to show a time lapse and/or a change of location. I say that it is both.

Quote
What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.
   They had stood that way for a long time in front of the fire, its burning tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in Ennis's pocket, from the sticks in the fire settling into coals. Stars bit through the wavy heat layers above the fire. Ennis's breath came slow and quiet, he hummed, rocked a little in the sparklight and Jack leaned against the steady heartbeat, the vibrations of the humming ike faint electricity and, standing, he fell into sleep that was not sleep but something else drowsy and tranced until Ennis, dredging up a rusty but still useable phrase from the childhood time before his mother died, said, "Time to hit the hay, cowboy. I got a go. Come on, you're sleepin on your feet like a horse," and gave Jack a shake, a push, and went off in the darkness. Jack heard his spurs tremble as he mounted, the words "see you tomorrow," and the horse's shuddering snort, grind of hoof on stone.
   Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.[/
size]

IMO, "Let be, let be" is Jack's response to the "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved" situation when he was last with Ennis. I just believe that Jack decided to "let Ennis be' and get on with his own life without Ennis.

Ennis's setting all the rules for his relationship with Jack made Jack miserable. Because of his fear of being found out that he was "queer," even at 39 years of age, it was always Ennis who decided when and where the two would meet. Ennis never wanted to do what Jack suggested after they first "fishing trip" in 1967.

Jack did not have to stop loving Ennis to let him be and take charge of his own life. Annie Proulx's Lureen took on her father's persona and after her father died, she took over the Farm and Equipment company and became Jack's boss (he had not worked for the outfit until Lureen was the boss).

Since this subject thread is in the open forum group, I prefer to believe that Jack just decided to stop trying to please both Ennis and Lureen and move on with his own life. Jack had been a failure trying to please his own father; but, at least his Mom knew that he tried. I just believe that since Jack knew, or at least guessed, that Ennis would never ask for proof of his "accident," he would find a way to get out of the way of his wife and his (sort of) husband.

I am saying that Jack did not have to fake a death to get Ennis to believe he was dead; he just had to have at least two people make Ennis think he was dead and that was Lureen and his father. The way that Ennis talked about "the tire iron" in the motel room in 1967, I wouldn't have been surprised if Ennis mentioned a truck tire iron quite a few times between 1967 and 1983 . . . especially when Jack brought up the subject of them living together.

Offline Penthesilea

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Depends on when Jack would have given an ultimatum and what kind of ultimatum it would have been (Randall? Mexico? Living together? Meeting more often? A trip to Mexico?).

If he'd given any kind of ultimatum at their lake scene confrontation, I think it would have changed nothing. Or if so, for the worse. They were both already over the edge, so after an ultimatum from Jack at this point they may not have been able to "torque things to almost to where they had been".

For me, it always leeds to November. To the question: what if Jack hadn't died?
There are signs that Ennis started to change. We've discussed them many times. Ennis broke up with Cassie, Ennis was the one who admitted that he couldn't stand it anymore. So at least this was clear to himself and to Jack. He must have had many thoughts about their relationship after their last time together. Look at him in the diner/busstation scene.

Plus, the times and circumstances had changed or were about to change: it wasn't the sixties anymore, but the eighties. Society had changed in it's attitude towards homosexuality. I don't want to say it was all fine, far from that (it's probably far from that today). But at least it was a topic and less of a total taboo. I guess in the 60ies it wasn't even a subject matter of discussions.
And Ennis's girls were nearly adult. The time he had to pay no more child support was foreseeable. That would have given him more choices regarding work. The girls finally grown up and making their owns lives would have given him more freedom. He would not have to "stuck with what he's got" any longer. He would have been responsible only for himself.

I can see development potentialities in Ennis. So in November some things probably would have changed. With or without an ultimatum from Jack.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 12:30:58 pm by Penthesilea »

Offline nic

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There are signs that Ennis started to change. We've discussed them many times. Ennis broke up with Cassie, Ennis was the one who admitted that he couldn't stand it anymore. So at least this was clear to himself and to Jack. He must have had many thoughts about their relationship after their last time together. Look at him in the diner/busstation scene...

...I can see development potentialities in Ennis. So in November some things probably would have changed. With or without an ultimatum from Jack.

I think this too (& btw, I've never read it written out so well summarised before). Can't decide if it makes the story more or less tragic.  More tragic because a happier ending could have ensued if only Ennis hadn't taken so long to come around or less tragic because at least he knew he was going to make a change. 

Maybe both so it cancels out and the ending is just Tragic with a captial T, period !

I think Ennis had to go at his own pace until he got to that tipping point.  He only got there by himself after the last meeting in my view without any ultimatum, & it was too late.  An ultimatum would have thrown him & he may well have thought to hell with it & let Jack go. But would that have been permanently?  Eventually I think he would have sought Jack out again & that lends a nice symmetry, mirroring Jack seeking him out in 1967.  Then it is up for debate as to what situation Jack would be in by then & whether he'd take Ennis back.  If Ennis was far enough along on the road to that tipping point at the point an ultimatum was issued, he might not have let much time elapse and there would be less chance Jack was caught up in something.  I  think that Jack would always take him back though, no matter how hurt he got by Ennis's initial rejection.


Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over