Author Topic: What if Jack gave Ennis an ultimatum? Come with me to Mexico or it,s over.  (Read 16760 times)

Offline Jane

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Do you think Ennis would have been so terrified at the prospect of never seeing Jack again that he,d have said"to hell with it" and gone with him, or stayed where he was and pined.  Would the thought of knowing that Jack would probably spend the rest of his life picking up male prostitutes driven Ennis so crazy with jealousy it would  be enough to make him go?  Or do you think he,d have tried to get him to stay?  I,ve often wondered that, just wondered what you lot thought. hmmmmmmmmm. :-\ :-\
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Offline opinionista

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I'm not sure what your point is but I don't think Ennis would've changed his mind. Jack does give Ennis a ultimatum when he says "You used to come easy, now is like seeing the Pope" and later in the argument when he adds:

Tell you what, we coulda had a good life together! Fuckin' real good life! Had us a place of our own. But you didn't want it, Ennis! So what we got now is Brokeback Mountain! Everything's built on that! That's all we got, boy, fuckin' all. So I hope you know that, even if you don't never know the rest! You count the damn few times we have been together in nearly twenty years and you measure the short fucking leash you keep me on - and then you ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for needing somethin' I don't hardly never get. You have no idea how bad it gets! I'm not you... I can't make it on a coupla high-altitude fucks once or twice a year! You are too much for me Ennis, you sonofawhoreson bitch! I wish I knew how to quit you.

When Jack says "I wish I knew how to quit you" the first thing Ennis says is "Why don't you?". I know Ennis's answer can be intepreted in many ways, but it made me think that maybe Ennis also thought about the possibility of a break up. I guess Ennis knew deep in his heart Jack wasn't happy anymore. And he didn't know what else to do. Ennis felt he couldn't give Jack what he wanted. He loved him but he couldn't deal with the fact that Jack was a man.
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Offline ednbarby

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I agree.  I don't think anything Jack could have said would have changed his mind, unfortunately.  It took his dying to do that.   :'(
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Offline Jane

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My point is, I just wondered what would have happened. It was just a thought.  yes I know what Jack said to Ennis in their final scene together about the fact that they could have had a good life together.  Like I said, it was just a thought.  Wasnt meant  to start ww3 or anything. ::)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 10:39:05 am by Jane »
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Offline opinionista

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My point is, I just wondered what would have happened. It was just a thought.  yes I know what Jack said to Ennis in their final scene together about the fact that they could have had a good life together.  Like I said, it was just a thought.  Wasnt ment to start ww3 or anything. ::)


It's ok, Its a good thread. I just wanted to make sure what did you mean by it in case I was misunderstanding you or something.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

tiawahcowboy

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Do you think Ennis would have been so terrified at the prospect of never seeing Jack again that he,d have said"to hell with it" and gone with him, or stayed where he was and pined.  Would the thought of knowing that Jack would probably spend the rest of his life picking up male prostitutes driven Ennis so crazy with jealousy it would  be enough to make him go?  Or do you think he,d have tried to get him to stay?  I,ve often wondered that, just wondered what you lot thought. hmmmmmmmmm. :-\ :-\

The ONLY reason that Jack brought up the subject of Mexico in the first place was he was almost 40 years old and because of his bone injuries to doing all of the bull riding before he actually had Lureen as his boss (I prefer the book version) after her old man died, going camping in the high altitudes of Wyoming made him miserable. He wanted to meet in a warmer place. Because of certain orthopedic problems I have, I cannot stand very cold weather either.

IMO, the screenplay writers and/or the movie makers misinterpreted what both Ennis and Jack meant in regard to the subject of Mexico. I would say that what Ennis had heard about Mexico was not about "boys like (Jack);" but, he had heard that queers got killed in Mexico just like in Wyoming. And that is a well-known fact among gays who used to live in Mexico, I heard enough of that from real Mexicans and naturalized Mexican-American citizens.

Since Ennis asked, "Been a Mexico, Jack," Jack decided that he might as well claim he had; but what he was really thinking that he did have sex with guys in much warmer places than the cold mountains of Wyoming, the only places  Ennis wanted to meet Jack. Annie Proulx never wrote in her narrative that Jack actually went to Mexico. In fact, she did not even write what Jack did after he made an unnecessary trip up to Wyoming after Ennis left a phone message that Alma had divorced him. (Hope that sentence makes sense.)

I don't think that Jack even went to Mexico in the first place in the mind of Annie Proulx. Jack misunderstood why Ennis asked if he had been down there and did not ask he why he asked the question. Jack could have responded with, "Why are you asking me if I had been to Mexico, Ennis?" "Mexico" was a simile or metaphorical expression for Jack's sexual activity with other men instead of Ennis.

Actually, in 1967, in the Siesta Motel room in Riverton, Jack suggested that maybe they could go to Denver to live together. Denver can be much warmer in the summer time. I have been there in May, June, July, and August at different times.

Offline ednbarby

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My point is, I just wondered what would have happened. It was just a thought.  yes I know what Jack said to Ennis in their final scene together about the fact that they could have had a good life together.  Like I said, it was just a thought.  Wasnt meant  to start ww3 or anything. ::)

I think it's an excellent question.  Didn't mean to be flippant in my answer.  It's something I've thought about a lot - was there any way Jack could have changed Ennis' mind while he was still alive?  Actually, I wonder if, had he made him an ultimatum - not using Mexico, but using Randall as his fall-back position, and when Ennis inevitably refused, if the thought of Jack living with another man would have been too much for Ennis to bear, not just because of his love for Jack but because of his concern that it would get him killed?  Perhaps if Jack had let Ennis know about his parents' ranch and building the cabin and all that - I think Ennis still would have refused, but again found the thought of him living up there with Randall unbearable, just as he obviously did when he learned about his intention of it from old man Twist before he found the shirts.

In that scenario, what do you think Ennis would have done, Jane?  Would he have lived with that unbearable truth, or would he have tried to do something about it?  He'd already decided he wasn't going to marry Cassie just to try to pass, so in that way, he had started on the road of becoming a fixer instead of a stander.  But would he have had the stones to take it that much further had Jack survived and he knew about Randall?
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tiawahcowboy

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While the following is INSERTED INTO movie's last scene with Jack and Ennis together, Annie Proulx wrote it as being something that happened AFTER the two guys split up in 1983.

The first quote is from the trailhead parking lot and it took place with Ennis talking to Jack, who is already in his own truck ready to drive off. Ennis waited until the last minute to tell Jack that there was a change of plans.

Quote
. . .  Ennis stood as if heart-shot, face grey and deep-lined, grimacing, eyes screwed shut, fists clenched, legs caving, hit the ground on his knees.
   "Jesus," said Jack. "Ennis?" But before he was out of the truck, trying to guess if it was heart attack or the overflow of an incendiary rage, Ennis was back on his feet and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.


In the text, there is triple line spacing between the above and the below to show a time lapse and/or a change of location. I say that it is both.

Quote
What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.
   They had stood that way for a long time in front of the fire, its burning tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in Ennis's pocket, from the sticks in the fire settling into coals. Stars bit through the wavy heat layers above the fire. Ennis's breath came slow and quiet, he hummed, rocked a little in the sparklight and Jack leaned against the steady heartbeat, the vibrations of the humming ike faint electricity and, standing, he fell into sleep that was not sleep but something else drowsy and tranced until Ennis, dredging up a rusty but still useable phrase from the childhood time before his mother died, said, "Time to hit the hay, cowboy. I got a go. Come on, you're sleepin on your feet like a horse," and gave Jack a shake, a push, and went off in the darkness. Jack heard his spurs tremble as he mounted, the words "see you tomorrow," and the horse's shuddering snort, grind of hoof on stone.
   Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.[/
size]

IMO, "Let be, let be" is Jack's response to the "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved" situation when he was last with Ennis. I just believe that Jack decided to "let Ennis be' and get on with his own life without Ennis.

Ennis's setting all the rules for his relationship with Jack made Jack miserable. Because of his fear of being found out that he was "queer," even at 39 years of age, it was always Ennis who decided when and where the two would meet. Ennis never wanted to do what Jack suggested after they first "fishing trip" in 1967.

Jack did not have to stop loving Ennis to let him be and take charge of his own life. Annie Proulx's Lureen took on her father's persona and after her father died, she took over the Farm and Equipment company and became Jack's boss (he had not worked for the outfit until Lureen was the boss).

Since this subject thread is in the open forum group, I prefer to believe that Jack just decided to stop trying to please both Ennis and Lureen and move on with his own life. Jack had been a failure trying to please his own father; but, at least his Mom knew that he tried. I just believe that since Jack knew, or at least guessed, that Ennis would never ask for proof of his "accident," he would find a way to get out of the way of his wife and his (sort of) husband.

I am saying that Jack did not have to fake a death to get Ennis to believe he was dead; he just had to have at least two people make Ennis think he was dead and that was Lureen and his father. The way that Ennis talked about "the tire iron" in the motel room in 1967, I wouldn't have been surprised if Ennis mentioned a truck tire iron quite a few times between 1967 and 1983 . . . especially when Jack brought up the subject of them living together.

Offline Penthesilea

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Depends on when Jack would have given an ultimatum and what kind of ultimatum it would have been (Randall? Mexico? Living together? Meeting more often? A trip to Mexico?).

If he'd given any kind of ultimatum at their lake scene confrontation, I think it would have changed nothing. Or if so, for the worse. They were both already over the edge, so after an ultimatum from Jack at this point they may not have been able to "torque things to almost to where they had been".

For me, it always leeds to November. To the question: what if Jack hadn't died?
There are signs that Ennis started to change. We've discussed them many times. Ennis broke up with Cassie, Ennis was the one who admitted that he couldn't stand it anymore. So at least this was clear to himself and to Jack. He must have had many thoughts about their relationship after their last time together. Look at him in the diner/busstation scene.

Plus, the times and circumstances had changed or were about to change: it wasn't the sixties anymore, but the eighties. Society had changed in it's attitude towards homosexuality. I don't want to say it was all fine, far from that (it's probably far from that today). But at least it was a topic and less of a total taboo. I guess in the 60ies it wasn't even a subject matter of discussions.
And Ennis's girls were nearly adult. The time he had to pay no more child support was foreseeable. That would have given him more choices regarding work. The girls finally grown up and making their owns lives would have given him more freedom. He would not have to "stuck with what he's got" any longer. He would have been responsible only for himself.

I can see development potentialities in Ennis. So in November some things probably would have changed. With or without an ultimatum from Jack.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 12:30:58 pm by Penthesilea »

Offline nic

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There are signs that Ennis started to change. We've discussed them many times. Ennis broke up with Cassie, Ennis was the one who admitted that he couldn't stand it anymore. So at least this was clear to himself and to Jack. He must have had many thoughts about their relationship after their last time together. Look at him in the diner/busstation scene...

...I can see development potentialities in Ennis. So in November some things probably would have changed. With or without an ultimatum from Jack.

I think this too (& btw, I've never read it written out so well summarised before). Can't decide if it makes the story more or less tragic.  More tragic because a happier ending could have ensued if only Ennis hadn't taken so long to come around or less tragic because at least he knew he was going to make a change. 

Maybe both so it cancels out and the ending is just Tragic with a captial T, period !

I think Ennis had to go at his own pace until he got to that tipping point.  He only got there by himself after the last meeting in my view without any ultimatum, & it was too late.  An ultimatum would have thrown him & he may well have thought to hell with it & let Jack go. But would that have been permanently?  Eventually I think he would have sought Jack out again & that lends a nice symmetry, mirroring Jack seeking him out in 1967.  Then it is up for debate as to what situation Jack would be in by then & whether he'd take Ennis back.  If Ennis was far enough along on the road to that tipping point at the point an ultimatum was issued, he might not have let much time elapse and there would be less chance Jack was caught up in something.  I  think that Jack would always take him back though, no matter how hurt he got by Ennis's initial rejection.


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tiawahcowboy

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In 1983, in the states west of the Mississippi River and the Rocky Mountain states, for the majority of residents there, "society's attitude" toward homosexuals had changed very little if not at all, except in the larger cities in those states. "Sodomy" was still illegal in those states in 1983.

Offline Penthesilea

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I think this too (& btw, I've never read it written out so well summarised before). Can't decide if it makes the story more or less tragic.  More tragic because a happier ending could have ensued if only Ennis hadn't taken so long to come around or less tragic because at least he knew he was going to make a change. 

Maybe both so it cancels out and the ending is just Tragic with a captial T, period !

Thanks for the compliment. I'm  sometimes not sure whether I'm able to get my point across (English is a foreign language for me).
I always thought it makes the story all the more tragic. Front-Ranger put it in really beautiful words on another thread:
Quote
What makes the end of the movie so tragic for me is that Ennis was almost there, he had almost traveled all the way around the coffeepot to find the handle, the answer. And he was almost ready to agree to a life with Jack

It was in this thread where we discussed the topic, the "what if Jack hadn't died"

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1259.0

Anyway, I agree about Tragic with a capital T. Never seen a sadder movie in my life.

Offline nic

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It was in this thread where we discussed the topic, the "what if Jack hadn't died"

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1259.0

Thanks - off to check it out (as if I haven't already read a library's worth of BBM discussion!)
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Offline opinionista

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For me, it always leeds to November. To the question: what if Jack hadn't died?
There are signs that Ennis started to change. We've discussed them many times. Ennis broke up with Cassie, Ennis was the one who admitted that he couldn't stand it anymore. So at least this was clear to himself and to Jack. He must have had many thoughts about their relationship after their last time together. Look at him in the diner/busstation scene.

Plus, the times and circumstances had changed or were about to change: it wasn't the sixties anymore, but the eighties. Society had changed in it's attitude towards homosexuality. I don't want to say it was all fine, far from that (it's probably far from that today). But at least it was a topic and less of a total taboo. I guess in the 60ies it wasn't even a subject matter of discussions.
And Ennis's girls were nearly adult. The time he had to pay no more child support was foreseeable. That would have given him more choices regarding work. The girls finally grown up and making their owns lives would have given him more freedom. He would not have to "stuck with what he's got" any longer. He would have been responsible only for himself.

I can see development potentialities in Ennis. So in November some things probably would have changed. With or without an ultimatum from Jack.


Maybe Ennis was showing a few sign of change but I think it was already too late even if Jack hadn't died. I think it came to a point where Jack had lost all hope and was conviced that Ennis didn't love him anymore or at least not as much as he thought he did. "You used to come easy, now is like seeing the Pope", Jack said.

I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across. What I'm trying to say is that sometimes when you are in a relationship where you are constantly rejected and where the object of your affection is seldom emotionally available for you, it comes to a point where you stop trusting that person. You begin to have doubts and wonder if he or she still loves you. You are so hurt already that even if that other person has a change of heart and tells you that he/she indeed loves you, you find it hard to believe it.

If Jack hadn't died and Ennis had a change of heart after that confrontation at the Lakeside, Ennis would have need to work hard to convice Jack that he's changed. In fact, both of them would have to work very hard to make the relationship work because they had years and years of pain, things unsaid and unresolved, piled up in their hearts. You can't simply erase 20 years of pain and resentment, and start all over again pretending nothing happened. Things always come up, and sometimes with serious consequences for the relationship and the ones in it.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 04:32:42 pm by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline ednbarby

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I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across. What I'm trying to say is that sometimes when you are in a relationship where you are constantly rejected and where the object of your affection is seldom emotionally available for you, it comes to a point where you stop trusting that person. You begin to have doubts and wonder if he or she still loves you. You are so hurt already that even if that other person has a change of heart and tells you that he/she indeed loves you, you find it hard to believe it.

I know from this.  This is the reason that after two years of punishment, I finally moved on from the love of my life to the point where, when I'd been seeing my now husband for a couple of months and he came practically crawling back to me, practically begging me to give him another chance, as hard as nails as it was, I was able to say, "No."

I had much less to go on than Jack did, though.  Well, wait a minute - yes and no.  I was about to say that this guy never once told me he loved me, then I remembered...  I was about to say that this guy never once made any future, long-term plans of any kind that included me, then I remembered...  And this guy only allowed himself to be truly intimate and affectionate with me on very rare occasions - so rare, I can count them on one hand.  But then, I was a woman and he was a man and I had much more opportunity to find another man I could love *openly* and with whom I could be accepted by society as a couple.  There's the difference.

I agree.  Jack had given up.  That's what that last look with those empty eyes and hardened jaw is all about.  Doesn't mean he'd ever have stopped loving Ennis.  And I'm sure if he hadn't died and had taken up with Randall at his parents' ranch and Ennis got wind of it and tried to talk him/beat him out of it, he'd have one hell of a fight on his hands.  Jack was a broken man at the end - that's almost as heartbreaking as his literal death.  Like Jake said, he died the moment he knew he couldn't be with Ennis like he wanted.  I know from that, too.  To a much lesser extent.  It occurs to me just now that maybe that's why Jack appeals to me  more than Ennis.  I feel his pain more because I've felt it before.
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Offline opinionista

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I know from this.  This is the reason that after two years of punishment, I finally moved on from the love of my life to the point where, when I'd been seeing my now husband for a couple of months and he came practically crawling back to me, practically begging me to give him another chance, as hard as nails as it was, I was able to say, "No."

I had much less to go on than Jack did, though.  Well, wait a minute - yes and no.  I was about to say that this guy never once told me he loved me, then I remembered...  I was about to say that this guy never once made any future, long-term plans of any kind that included me, then I remembered...  And this guy only allowed himself to be truly intimate and affectionate with me on very rare occasions - so rare, I can count them on one hand.  But then, I was a woman and he was a man and I had much more opportunity to find another man I could love *openly* and with whom I could be accepted by society as a couple.  There's the difference.

I agree.  Jack had given up.  That's what that last look with those empty eyes and hardened jaw is all about.  Doesn't mean he'd ever have stopped loving Ennis.  And I'm sure if he hadn't died and had taken up with Randall at his parents' ranch and Ennis got wind of it and tried to talk him/beat him out of it, he'd have one hell of a fight on his hands.  Jack was a broken man at the end - that's almost as heartbreaking as his literal death.  Like Jake said, he died the moment he knew he couldn't be with Ennis like he wanted.  I know from that, too.  To a much lesser extent.  It occurs to me just now that maybe that's why Jack appeals to me  more than Ennis.  I feel his pain more because I've felt it before.

I've gone through this too which is why, contrary to what some people think, in my opinion Jack and Ennis's relationship was doomed since the day Jack went to see him after the divorce and Ennis rejected him. Even if he hadn't died, and Ennis has changed his mind, I don't think they would've survived a as couple. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but from a reality point of view, I seriously doubt their relationship had any future from that moment on, no matter how much they loved each other. They'd need extensive professional therapy for it to work. Twenty years of struggle and pain is too much for a person to handle, I think. You end up feeling kind of numb.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 04:27:04 pm by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline nic

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I've gone through this too ....

I've experienced it too, but didn't ever connect it before in any way with BBM, being too consumed with thinking myself as an Ennis type.  Wow - that's given me another angle to contemplate, something from Jack's POV.  Thanks guys, but hugs all round for having experienced the negative stuff.  You know what I mean  :)
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tiawahcowboy

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Oh, I would say that Jack and Ennis's relationship was doomed since the day Jack went to see him in Riverton in 1967.

If I had been Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar told me that there was no way that we could have a relationship when in the Riverton motel in 1967, I would have told Ennis that I would not be seeing him again and tell him "See ya!"

Oh, I might have asked Ennis why (according to the book) he said, "Alma? It ain't her fault," What ain't Alma's fault? The fact that you thought you had to marry her to prove you are a man? Does that mean you weren't in love with her to begin with?"
« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 05:22:34 pm by tiawahcowboy »

Offline opinionista

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Oh, I would say that Jack and Ennis's relationship was doomed since the day Jack went to see him in Riverton in 1967.

If I had been Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar told me that there was no way that we could have a relationship when in the Riverton motel in 1967, I would have told Ennis that I would not be seeing him again and tell him "See ya!"

Oh, I might have asked Ennis why (according to the book) he said, "Alma? It ain't her fault," What ain't Alma's fault? The fact that you thought you had to marry her to prove you are a man? Does that mean you weren't in love with her to begin with?"

But this is assuming you weren't married. Jack was married too, so he was in no position to actually judge Ennis at that point of their relationship, was he? Then why did he marry Lureen? Just for her money? That could also be questionable. I think Jack had sexuality issues too, not as bad as Ennis but he did to a certain degree, I guess. He was human, after all. Although in the short story Proulx implies that Jack was having sex with other men or at least trying too when he was rodeoing in Texas.
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tiawahcowboy

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But this is assuming you weren't married. Jack was married too, so he was in no position to actually judge Ennis at that point of their relationship, was he? Then why did he marry Lureen? Just for her money? That could also be questionable. I think Jack had sexuality issues too, not as bad as Ennis but he did to a certain degree, I guess. He was human, after all. Although in the short story Proulx implies that Jack was having sex with other men or at least trying too when he was rodeoing in Texas.

Oh, I think that Jack got married to Story Lureen "What's-her-name?" in hopes that he could get her father (no name either) and his farm equipment company to sponsor him as a rodeo bull rider. Story Jack really has nothing good to say about Lureen when he is alone with Ennis.

If you read the short story, you will see how Jack talked about his father-in-law.

Quote
"I was in Texas rodeoin. How I met Lureen. Look over on that chair."
     . . .
   "I made three fuckin thousand dollars that year. Fuckin starved. Had to borrow everthing but a toothbrush from other guys. Drove grooves across Texas. Half the time under that cunt truck fixin it. Anyway, I didn't never think about losin. Lureen? There's some serious money there. Her old man's got it. Got this farm machinery business. Course he don't let her have none a the money, and he hates my fuckin guts, so it's a hard go now but one a these days -- "

"Listen. I'm thinkin, tell you what, if you and me had a little ranch together, little cow and calf operation, your horses, it'd be some sweet life. Like I said, I'm gettin out a rodeo. I ain't no broke-dick rider but I don't got the bucks a ride out this slump I'm in and I don't got the bones a keep gettin wrecked. I got it figured, got this plan, Ennis, how we can do it, you and me. Lureen's old man, you bet he'd give me a bunch if I'd get lost. Already more or less said it -- "


See why I said what I did about Jack? Annie Proux's Jack Twist NEVER worked for his father-in-law.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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While the following is INSERTED INTO movie's last scene with Jack and Ennis together, Annie Proulx wrote it as being something that happened AFTER the two guys split up in 1983.

The first quote is from the trailhead parking lot and it took place with Ennis talking to Jack, who is already in his own truck ready to drive off. Ennis waited until the last minute to tell Jack that there was a change of plans.
 

In the text, there is triple line spacing between the above and the below to show a time lapse and/or a change of location. I say that it is both.

IMO, "Let be, let be" is Jack's response to the "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved" situation when he was last with Ennis. I just believe that Jack decided to "let Ennis be' and get on with his own life without Ennis.

Ennis's setting all the rules for his relationship with Jack made Jack miserable. Because of his fear of being found out that he was "queer," even at 39 years of age, it was always Ennis who decided when and where the two would meet. Ennis never wanted to do what Jack suggested after they first "fishing trip" in 1967.

Jack did not have to stop loving Ennis to let him be and take charge of his own life. Annie Proulx's Lureen took on her father's persona and after her father died, she took over the Farm and Equipment company and became Jack's boss (he had not worked for the outfit until Lureen was the boss).

Since this subject thread is in the open forum group, I prefer to believe that Jack just decided to stop trying to please both Ennis and Lureen and move on with his own life. Jack had been a failure trying to please his own father; but, at least his Mom knew that he tried. I just believe that since Jack knew, or at least guessed, that Ennis would never ask for proof of his "accident," he would find a way to get out of the way of his wife and his (sort of) husband.

I am saying that Jack did not have to fake a death to get Ennis to believe he was dead; he just had to have at least two people make Ennis think he was dead and that was Lureen and his father. The way that Ennis talked about "the tire iron" in the motel room in 1967, I wouldn't have been surprised if Ennis mentioned a truck tire iron quite a few times between 1967 and 1983 . . . especially when Jack brought up the subject of them living together.
It was on this same trip that jack said"sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". I don think he would ever give up on Ennis.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline alec716

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I don't think that Jack even went to Mexico in the first place in the mind of Annie Proulx. Jack misunderstood why Ennis asked if he had been down there and did not ask he why he asked the question. Jack could have responded with, "Why are you asking me if I had been to Mexico, Ennis?" "Mexico" was a simile or metaphorical expression for Jack's sexual activity with other men instead of Ennis.


To build on this thought -- whether or not Annie Proulx envisioned Jack specifically going to Mexico for sex, IMO she certainly implied that he was with men other than Ennis and that he sometimes paid for the privilege.  After meeting Ennis and before their reunion, and certainly before he had any money, Jack "had been ridiing more than bulls" and lied to Ennis about it.  Both the "riding" and the lying may be understandable in the context.  Then, after the death of L.D. Newsome, when Jack got his "vague managerial title," Annie whispered that Jack "had some money now and found ways to spend it on his buying trips."  Whether his purchases were primarily wholesale farm machines or retail men's favors is unanswered.  I am not making any judgment of Jack here -- heaven knows I adore the guy and have felt some degree of his pain -- I'm just making observations.

All that being said, to circle back to the original thought of this thread, I allow myself to believe that Ennis would have gotten himself together, as the expression goes, in the face of Jack's ultimatum.  In a way, Ennis gave Jack an ultimatum during their final scene together ... "why don't you then?" in response to Jack wanting to quit him.  I think that Ennis' pain at that moment was partly fueled by the sudden realization that he could really lose Jack, and that was more than he could bear.  He literally collapsed under the weight of his own ultimatum.  I know that Annie says of the way that scene ended "nothing resolved," but maybe just in an immediate sense.  Nothing was resolved at that moment, but the door was implicitly left open to some sort of future resolution.

My hope after the final parting scene was that Ennis, in response to the pain of this moment, would slowly work hiimself up to telling Jack when he saw him in November that he was ready for more.  I choose to believe that, had Jack lived to make that November trip, Ennis would have told Jack that they could move closer in some fashion.  Ennis was not the sort to have put such a message in writing and it would not have fit on a postcard anyway.   :)  And, as we know, a phone call would have been extremely far out of the ordinary (Annie tells us of only one while Jack was alive).  So Ennis was going to open himself up come November... maybe not completely, but moreso than he had. 

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.  Sorry for such a long post... I got on a roll...
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Offline welliwont

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2006/06/18 correction:  change "want" to "what".   ::)


That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.  Sorry for such a long post... I got on a roll...

Good grief, don't apologize for posting a long post!  You are at BetterMost :) ;D!!  Your post has touched on a couple of the enigmas that I have been struggling to pin down.  Specifically, when Ennis answers "why doncha then, why doncha just leave me be?" ..."  I like your suggestion, that maybe Ennis was saying that in a challenging way.  Me, I always take things sooo literally, I thought he was saying that 'cause that is want what Ennis wanted!  Of course I couldn't wrap my brain around that concept, that Ennis was literally asking Jack to quit him...

This movie/story is just so hard to pin down, I thought I was going to be able to resolve all the enigmas to my own satisfaction, but I am beginning to think that I will never be able to write my own definite interpretation of this story.

Quote
All that being said, to circle back to the original thought of this thread, I allow myself to believe that Ennis would have gotten himself together, as the expression goes, in the face of Jack's ultimatum.  In a way, Ennis gave Jack an ultimatum during their final scene together ... "why don't you then?" in response to Jack wanting to quit him.  I think that Ennis' pain at that moment was partly fueled by the sudden realization that he could really lose Jack, and that was more than he could bear.  He literally collapsed under the weight of his own ultimatum.  I know that Annie says of the way that scene ended "nothing resolved," but maybe just in an immediate sense.  Nothing was resolved at that moment, but the door was implicitly left open to some sort of future resolution.

My hope after the final parting scene was that Ennis, in response to the pain of this moment, would slowly work hiimself up to telling Jack when he saw him in November that he was ready for more.  I choose to believe that, had Jack lived to make that November trip, Ennis would have told Jack that they could move closer in some fashion.  Ennis was not the sort to have put such a message in writing and it would not have fit on a postcard anyway.     And, as we know, a phone call would have been extremely far out of the ordinary (Annie tells us of only one while Jack was alive).  So Ennis was going to open himself up come November... maybe not completely, but moreso than he had.

I would like to believe that...  I think that the fact that Ennis stopped seeing Cassie after their last fishing trip supports your hypothesis.  I do however have a problem with the way that was done.  According to the timeline, Ennis began to see Cassie in 1978, and stopped seeing her in 1983.  Five years, damn!  For a woman to be dumped so unceremoniously after being in a relationship for five f---n' years just boggles the mind.  Cassie says she left messages and notes, and then moved on to Carl.  Sheesh, after five years, I think a face-to-face encounter with Ennis would be absolutely necessary to Cassie.  How could she just accept this silent brush-off after five f'n years??

J

« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 01:36:07 pm by JakeTwist »
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Offline welliwont

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PS:  I like BBM as much as the next Brokie, but if I take two steps back and process the narcissistic way Ennis treated Cassie, that makes Ennis a Bad Person.  (Oh yeah, and I tend to be judgmental as well as literal).  My mantra, courtesy of Ann Landers is “The true measure of a human is how he or she treats his fellow man.  Integrity and compassion cannot be learned in college, nor are these qualities inherited in the genes.”

Sorry to all the Heathens!  *ducks into the tent just before the barrage*
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Offline jpwagoneer1964

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To build on this thought -- whether or not Annie Proulx envisioned Jack specifically going to Mexico for sex, IMO she certainly implied that he was with men other than Ennis and that he sometimes paid for the privilege.  After meeting Ennis and before their reunion, and certainly before he had any money, Jack "had been ridiing more than bulls" and lied to Ennis about it.  Both the "riding" and the lying may be understandable in the context.  Then, after the death of L.D. Newsome, when Jack got his "vague managerial title," Annie whispered that Jack "had some money now and found ways to spend it on his buying trips."  Whether his purchases were primarily wholesale farm machines or retail men's favors is unanswered.  I am not making any judgment of Jack here -- heaven knows I adore the guy and have felt some degree of his pain -- I'm just making observations.

All that being said, to circle back to the original thought of this thread, I allow myself to believe that Ennis would have gotten himself together, as the expression goes, in the face of Jack's ultimatum.  In a way, Ennis gave Jack an ultimatum during their final scene together ... "why don't you then?" in response to Jack wanting to quit him.  I think that Ennis' pain at that moment was partly fueled by the sudden realization that he could really lose Jack, and that was more than he could bear.  He literally collapsed under the weight of his own ultimatum.  I know that Annie says of the way that scene ended "nothing resolved," but maybe just in an immediate sense.  Nothing was resolved at that moment, but the door was implicitly left open to some sort of future resolution.

My hope after the final parting scene was that Ennis, in response to the pain of this moment, would slowly work hiimself up to telling Jack when he saw him in November that he was ready for more.  I choose to believe that, had Jack lived to make that November trip, Ennis would have told Jack that they could move closer in some fashion.  Ennis was not the sort to have put such a message in writing and it would not have fit on a postcard anyway.   :)  And, as we know, a phone call would have been extremely far out of the ordinary (Annie tells us of only one while Jack was alive).  So Ennis was going to open himself up come November... maybe not completely, but moreso than he had. 

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.  Sorry for such a long post... I got on a roll...
I am with you on this one. When Ennsi says "I can stand this anymore Jack" I take it to mean that since he "can"t fix it" he is ready to move closer to Jack in some fashion. His responsibilities to his  daughters are nearly over, I think that was as big a reason as any not to move forward before.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline David

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The final lake scene "fight" was really an ultimatum.   Jack said all those unsaid things.   Ennis's collapse certainly showed that he was terrified of losing Jack.

I honestly feel that each of them left that day and processed the event differently.   Jack had a long drive up to Lightning Flat to think things over.  He obviously felt that Ennis would never change, therefore he tells his folks that he's going to divorce Lureen and bring Randall up there to live.    Meanwhile, Ennis obviously realizes that he can't "stand it" anymore, so he has to fix it.   That means dump Cassie and tell Jack it's time for some changes when they meet in November.

Jacks death unfortunately just pushes Ennis farther back into the closet I think.

Offline alec716

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I am with you on this one. When Ennsi says "I can stand this anymore Jack" I take it to mean that since he "can"t fix it" he is ready to move closer to Jack in some fashion. His responsibilities to his  daughters are nearly over, I think that was as big a reason as any not to move forward before.

Exactly my hope.  And I like your point about the eventual end of his child support-paying days, which would free him up economically.

In their final scene by the lake, Ennis FINALLY realized that the could not stand it, he was going to summon the courage, inch by inch, to fix it.  As we all know, Ennis believed that what cannot be fixed must be tolerated.  What's the corollary?  If you can't stand it, fix it. He needed to evolve in order to survive.  For 20 years, he tried to stand it.  Couldn't.  At the last meeting with Jack, he tried to bluff his way out of it.  Couldn't.  Only option left was to get a grip and move himself forward.  I am not normally known for being this optimistic in life  ;), but this is what my gut tells me and my heart wants to believe.  Ennis gave Jack an ultimatum and shocked himself into growth in the process.  Pain is a great motivator, especially in combination with love.
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Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Oh my God, this is extremely fascinating...

JakeTwist, I see what you're saying about Ennis' treatment of Cassie -- except I don't think of it as 'narcissistic,' considering that Ennis appears to have very low self-esteem. I feel bad for Cassie but I understand what Ennis was going through and why he was so repressed.

My jury's verdict is still out on whether or not Jack was ready to move on from Ennis. Fascinatingly, I think this is one of the beautiful ambiguities in the story that I will go back and forth on repeatedly. Right now... I think he might have put his mind to it, at least thought hard about starting something up with Randall, but I think he would never be able to go through with it. He loved Ennis too much.

I think Ennis was starting to make a change too and that's what makes Jack's untimely death all the sadder. Oh, I'm gonna freakin' cry...

Quote
I've gone through this too which is why, contrary to what some people think, in my opinion Jack and Ennis's relationship was doomed since the day Jack went to see him after the divorce and Ennis rejected him. Even if he hadn't died, and Ennis has changed his mind, I don't think they would've survived a as couple. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but from a reality point of view, I seriously doubt their relationship had any future from that moment on, no matter how much they loved each other. They'd need extensive professional therapy for it to work. Twenty years of struggle and pain is too much for a person to handle, I think. You end up feeling kind of numb.

This theory is undoubtedly valid but I have to disagree. I think, had Jack not died, if Ennis did make a positive change then Jack would have stuck with him even if he was still in disbelief that Ennis had changed. They both experienced the same pain, in a way, as well. Maybe it's cause I'm so taken with their love but I can definitely see them, if they are both willing to live their 'sweet life,' committing themselves to making it work.

If you'd just realize what I just realized then we'd be perfect for each other and we'd never have to wonder if we missed out on each other now
We missed out on each other now


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Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Exactly my hope.  And I like your point about the eventual end of his child support-paying days, which would free him up economically.

In their final scene by the lake, Ennis FINALLY realized that the could not stand it, he was going to summon the courage, inch by inch, to fix it.  As we all know, Ennis believed that what cannot be fixed must be tolerated.  What's the corollary?  If you can't stand it, fix it. He needed to evolve in order to survive.  For 20 years, he tried to stand it.  Couldn't.  At the last meeting with Jack, he tried to bluff his way out of it.  Couldn't.  Only option left was to get a grip and move himself forward.  I am not normally known for being this optimistic in life  ;), but this is what my gut tells me and my heart wants to believe.  Ennis gave Jack an ultimatum and shocked himself into growth in the process.  Pain is a great motivator, especially in combination with love.
Forgot to mention that "I cant stand..." in not in the book or my copy of the screenplay'.
I think Jack would have stuck with Ennis no matter what, He does seem resigned to the fishing trips( they would have done some fishing, the river was always nearby and Ennis doen't take his gear out of the truck for nothing) and you see this in their easy familar interaction by the fire conversation which the last of we see is"Tell you what....truth is......" Jacks look as Ennis drives away to me a look of anger and sadness that if things never chage to as the book says "let it be..." accept things as they are.
 
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline alec716

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Jacks look as Ennis drives away to me a look of anger and sadness that if things never chage to as the book says "let it be..." accept things as they are.
 

I know that the expression on Jack's face as Ennis drives away is one of about seven million shots in this charmingly and maddeningly ambiguous movie ... I see the anger and sadness that you see, along with the resignation and yes, the commitment.  I realize that Jack may well have been planning a life with Randall, but I believe that he would have continued to see Ennis as much as possible.  Had Ennis made any progess toward more availability, Randall just might have found himself alone.  Nothing short of the death that found Jack could have kept him from Ennis.  Randall was merely a more available substitute, even if Jack loved him also.  Sez me.   ;)
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Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Quote
Nothing short of the death that found Jack could have kept him from Ennis.

And judging by the wind in the end of the movie, Jack was still with Ennis...
If you'd just realize what I just realized then we'd be perfect for each other and we'd never have to wonder if we missed out on each other now
We missed out on each other now


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Offline serious crayons

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I think echoes in the scenes where they're leaving Brokeback and then Signal provide some clues to interpreting the "why doncha then" scene.

Both scenes involve a fight, and "Why doncha then" is kind of Ennis' verbal equivalent to his punch on that long-ago day. Both scenes involve missing being together in August. Both involve breaking camp, and the two working to get Jack's truck ready to go. Both involve Jack standing at the open door of his truck and saying he's going to go visit his folks. Both involve Ennis collapsing in tears, and snapping at someone and saying fuck ("what the fuck you lookin at" to the passerby and "get the fuck off me" to Jack). Both partings involve snow and cold: in the first one, literally, in the second one, only suggested in Jack's prediction "gonna snow tonight for sure," and his complaint about the cold. Both times Ennis appears angry but his real emotions are quite different.

Both times they part -- the first time for four years, the second time forever. In the middle of the second, we see a flashback from the era of the first, where Ennis says "see you in the morning." The first time, he does see Jack in "the morning," metaphorically -- four years later. The second time, he doesn't.

Re Ennis' breakup with Cassie: I don't get you either, Ennis del Mar. It doesn't make much sense, does it? Some people won't like this explanation, but I am coming to believe there's something messed up about the time frames of those last few scenes -- it's just too hard to believe that Ennis and Cassie were together for five years for a number of reasons.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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I think echoes in the scenes where they're leaving Brokeback and then Signal provide some clues to interpreting the "why doncha then" scene.

Both scenes involve a fight, and "Why doncha then" is kind of Ennis' verbal equivalent to his punch on that long-ago day. Both scenes involve missing being together in August. Both involve breaking camp, and the two working to get Jack's truck ready to go. Both involve Jack standing at the open door of his truck and saying he's going to go visit his folks. Both involve Ennis collapsing in tears, and snapping at someone and saying fuck ("what the fuck you lookin at" to the passerby and "get the fuck off me" to Jack). Both partings involve snow and cold: in the first one, literally, in the second one, only suggested in Jack's prediction "gonna snow tonight for sure," and his complaint about the cold. Both times Ennis appears angry but his real emotions are quite different.

Both times they part -- the first time for four years, the second time forever. In the middle of the second, we see a flashback from the era of the first, where Ennis says "see you in the morning." The first time, he does see Jack in "the morning," metaphorically -- four years later. The second time, he doesn't.

Re Ennis' breakup with Cassie: I don't get you either, Ennis del Mar. It doesn't make much sense, does it? Some people won't like this explanation, but I am coming to believe there's something messed up about the time frames of those last few scenes -- it's just too hard to believe that Ennis and Cassie were together for five years for a number of reasons.

i I think the flashback may have happened the evening before the snowstorm that led to leaving Brokeback
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline alec716

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And judging by the wind in the end of the movie, Jack was still with Ennis...

Excellent point, bbm_stitchbuffyfan... now that I have read the thread about the wind as Jack, Jack as the wind, etc, I am going to focus on that next time I watch the movie.  It is a terrifc thread! 
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Offline welliwont

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i I think the flashback may have happened the evening before the snowstorm that led to leaving Brokeback

I never got that feeling jpwagoneer, why do you think that?
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Offline jpwagoneer1964

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I never got that feeling jpwagoneer, why do you think that?
The way the book and screenplay describe it as the "single, moment of charmed, artless happiness". It is one time Ennis is more forward and an indicatition that he is more comfortable with the relationship. While I would hope that they spent many nights together I would have thought that this would would be the usual parting to the nigts when Ennis went to the sheep .It would have been hade they not been had they not had to bring the sheep down early. To me its part of Jacks expression that their time is alwaysbeing cut short.
 
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: What if Jack gave Ennis an ultimatum? Come with me to Mexico or it,s over.
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2006, 10:18:45 pm »
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Offline mlewisusc

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Re: What if Jack gave Ennis an ultimatum? Come with me to Mexico or it,s over.
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2006, 12:16:12 am »
I think echoes in the scenes where they're leaving Brokeback and then Signal provide some clues to interpreting the "why doncha then" scene.

Both scenes involve a fight, and "Why doncha then" is kind of Ennis' verbal equivalent to his punch on that long-ago day. Both scenes involve missing being together in August. Both involve breaking camp, and the two working to get Jack's truck ready to go. Both involve Jack standing at the open door of his truck and saying he's going to go visit his folks. Both involve Ennis collapsing in tears, and snapping at someone and saying fuck ("what the fuck you lookin at" to the passerby and "get the fuck off me" to Jack). Both partings involve snow and cold: in the first one, literally, in the second one, only suggested in Jack's prediction "gonna snow tonight for sure," and his complaint about the cold. Both times Ennis appears angry but his real emotions are quite different.

Both times they part -- the first time for four years, the second time forever. In the middle of the second, we see a flashback from the era of the first, where Ennis says "see you in the morning." The first time, he does see Jack in "the morning," metaphorically -- four years later. The second time, he doesn't.

Re Ennis' breakup with Cassie: I don't get you either, Ennis del Mar. It doesn't make much sense, does it? Some people won't like this explanation, but I am coming to believe there's something messed up about the time frames of those last few scenes -- it's just too hard to believe that Ennis and Cassie were together for five years for a number of reasons.


Damn.  Have I missed seeing someone else make all these parallels before?  This is awesome!
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Offline Momof2

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Re: What if Jack gave Ennis an ultimatum? Come with me to Mexico or it,s over.
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2006, 03:09:44 pm »
[When Jack says "I wish I knew how to quit you" the first thing Ennis says is "Why don't you?". I know Ennis's answer can be intepreted in many ways, but it made me think that maybe Ennis also thought about the possibility of a break up. I guess Ennis knew deep in his heart Jack wasn't happy anymore. And he didn't know what else to do. Ennis felt he couldn't give Jack what he wanted. He loved him but he couldn't deal with the fact that Jack was a man.
[/quote]

Ennis knew why Jack couldnt quit him.  He loved him just as he loved Jack.  I think Ennis knew that he loved a man and as hard as it was he could not stay away from him.   
I wish I knew how to quit you.