What if Jack gave Ennis an ultimatum? Come with me to Mexico or it,s over.

[jpwagoneer1964]

While the following is INSERTED INTO movie's last scene with Jack and Ennis together, Annie Proulx wrote it as being something that happened AFTER the two guys split up in 1983.

The first quote is from the trailhead parking lot and it took place with Ennis talking to Jack, who is already in his own truck ready to drive off. Ennis waited until the last minute to tell Jack that there was a change of plans.
 

In the text, there is triple line spacing between the above and the below to show a time lapse and/or a change of location. I say that it is both.

IMO, "Let be, let be" is Jack's response to the "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved" situation when he was last with Ennis. I just believe that Jack decided to "let Ennis be' and get on with his own life without Ennis.

Ennis's setting all the rules for his relationship with Jack made Jack miserable. Because of his fear of being found out that he was "queer," even at 39 years of age, it was always Ennis who decided when and where the two would meet. Ennis never wanted to do what Jack suggested after they first "fishing trip" in 1967.

Jack did not have to stop loving Ennis to let him be and take charge of his own life. Annie Proulx's Lureen took on her father's persona and after her father died, she took over the Farm and Equipment company and became Jack's boss (he had not worked for the outfit until Lureen was the boss).

Since this subject thread is in the open forum group, I prefer to believe that Jack just decided to stop trying to please both Ennis and Lureen and move on with his own life. Jack had been a failure trying to please his own father; but, at least his Mom knew that he tried. I just believe that since Jack knew, or at least guessed, that Ennis would never ask for proof of his "accident," he would find a way to get out of the way of his wife and his (sort of) husband.

I am saying that Jack did not have to fake a death to get Ennis to believe he was dead; he just had to have at least two people make Ennis think he was dead and that was Lureen and his father. The way that Ennis talked about "the tire iron" in the motel room in 1967, I wouldn't have been surprised if Ennis mentioned a truck tire iron quite a few times between 1967 and 1983 . . . especially when Jack brought up the subject of them living together.

It was on this same trip that jack said"sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". I don think he would ever give up on Ennis.

[alec716]

I don't think that Jack even went to Mexico in the first place in the mind of Annie Proulx. Jack misunderstood why Ennis asked if he had been down there and did not ask he why he asked the question. Jack could have responded with, "Why are you asking me if I had been to Mexico, Ennis?" "Mexico" was a simile or metaphorical expression for Jack's sexual activity with other men instead of Ennis.

To build on this thought -- whether or not Annie Proulx envisioned Jack specifically going to Mexico for sex, IMO she certainly implied that he was with men other than Ennis and that he sometimes paid for the privilege.  After meeting Ennis and before their reunion, and certainly before he had any money, Jack "had been ridiing more than bulls" and lied to Ennis about it.  Both the "riding" and the lying may be understandable in the context.  Then, after the death of L.D. Newsome, when Jack got his "vague managerial title," Annie whispered that Jack "had some money now and found ways to spend it on his buying trips."  Whether his purchases were primarily wholesale farm machines or retail men's favors is unanswered.  I am not making any judgment of Jack here -- heaven knows I adore the guy and have felt some degree of his pain -- I'm just making observations.

All that being said, to circle back to the original thought of this thread, I allow myself to believe that Ennis would have gotten himself together, as the expression goes, in the face of Jack's ultimatum.  In a way, Ennis gave Jack an ultimatum during their final scene together ... "why don't you then?" in response to Jack wanting to quit him.  I think that Ennis' pain at that moment was partly fueled by the sudden realization that he could really lose Jack, and that was more than he could bear.  He literally collapsed under the weight of his own ultimatum.  I know that Annie says of the way that scene ended "nothing resolved," but maybe just in an immediate sense.  Nothing was resolved at that moment, but the door was implicitly left open to some sort of future resolution.

My hope after the final parting scene was that Ennis, in response to the pain of this moment, would slowly work hiimself up to telling Jack when he saw him in November that he was ready for more.  I choose to believe that, had Jack lived to make that November trip, Ennis would have told Jack that they could move closer in some fashion.  Ennis was not the sort to have put such a message in writing and it would not have fit on a postcard anyway.     And, as we know, a phone call would have been extremely far out of the ordinary (Annie tells us of only one while Jack was alive).  So Ennis was going to open himself up come November... maybe not completely, but moreso than he had. 

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.  Sorry for such a long post... I got on a roll...

[welliwont]

2006/06/18 correction:  change "want" to "what".   

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.  Sorry for such a long post... I got on a roll...

Good grief, don't apologize for posting a long post!  You are at BetterMost !!  Your post has touched on a couple of the enigmas that I have been struggling to pin down.  Specifically, when Ennis answers "why doncha then, why doncha just leave me be?" ..."  I like your suggestion, that maybe Ennis was saying that in a challenging way.  Me, I always take things sooo literally, I thought he was saying that 'cause that is want what Ennis wanted!  Of course I couldn't wrap my brain around that concept, that Ennis was literally asking Jack to quit him...

This movie/story is just so hard to pin down, I thought I was going to be able to resolve all the enigmas to my own satisfaction, but I am beginning to think that I will never be able to write my own definite interpretation of this story.

All that being said, to circle back to the original thought of this thread, I allow myself to believe that Ennis would have gotten himself together, as the expression goes, in the face of Jack's ultimatum.  In a way, Ennis gave Jack an ultimatum during their final scene together ... "why don't you then?" in response to Jack wanting to quit him.  I think that Ennis' pain at that moment was partly fueled by the sudden realization that he could really lose Jack, and that was more than he could bear.  He literally collapsed under the weight of his own ultimatum.  I know that Annie says of the way that scene ended "nothing resolved," but maybe just in an immediate sense.  Nothing was resolved at that moment, but the door was implicitly left open to some sort of future resolution.

My hope after the final parting scene was that Ennis, in response to the pain of this moment, would slowly work hiimself up to telling Jack when he saw him in November that he was ready for more.  I choose to believe that, had Jack lived to make that November trip, Ennis would have told Jack that they could move closer in some fashion.  Ennis was not the sort to have put such a message in writing and it would not have fit on a postcard anyway.     And, as we know, a phone call would have been extremely far out of the ordinary (Annie tells us of only one while Jack was alive).  So Ennis was going to open himself up come November... maybe not completely, but moreso than he had.

I would like to believe that...  I think that the fact that Ennis stopped seeing Cassie after their last fishing trip supports your hypothesis.  I do however have a problem with the way that was done.  According to the timeline, Ennis began to see Cassie in 1978, and stopped seeing her in 1983.  Five years, damn!  For a woman to be dumped so unceremoniously after being in a relationship for five f---n' years just boggles the mind.  Cassie says she left messages and notes, and then moved on to Carl.  Sheesh, after five years, I think a face-to-face encounter with Ennis would be absolutely necessary to Cassie.  How could she just accept this silent brush-off after five f'n years??

J

[welliwont]

PS:  I like BBM as much as the next Brokie, but if I take two steps back and process the narcissistic way Ennis treated Cassie, that makes Ennis a Bad Person.  (Oh yeah, and I tend to be judgmental as well as literal).  My mantra, courtesy of Ann Landers is “The true measure of a human is how he or she treats his fellow man.  Integrity and compassion cannot be learned in college, nor are these qualities inherited in the genes.”

Sorry to all the Heathens!  *ducks into the tent just before the barrage*

[jpwagoneer1964]

To build on this thought -- whether or not Annie Proulx envisioned Jack specifically going to Mexico for sex, IMO she certainly implied that he was with men other than Ennis and that he sometimes paid for the privilege.  After meeting Ennis and before their reunion, and certainly before he had any money, Jack "had been ridiing more than bulls" and lied to Ennis about it.  Both the "riding" and the lying may be understandable in the context.  Then, after the death of L.D. Newsome, when Jack got his "vague managerial title," Annie whispered that Jack "had some money now and found ways to spend it on his buying trips."  Whether his purchases were primarily wholesale farm machines or retail men's favors is unanswered.  I am not making any judgment of Jack here -- heaven knows I adore the guy and have felt some degree of his pain -- I'm just making observations.

All that being said, to circle back to the original thought of this thread, I allow myself to believe that Ennis would have gotten himself together, as the expression goes, in the face of Jack's ultimatum.  In a way, Ennis gave Jack an ultimatum during their final scene together ... "why don't you then?" in response to Jack wanting to quit him.  I think that Ennis' pain at that moment was partly fueled by the sudden realization that he could really lose Jack, and that was more than he could bear.  He literally collapsed under the weight of his own ultimatum.  I know that Annie says of the way that scene ended "nothing resolved," but maybe just in an immediate sense.  Nothing was resolved at that moment, but the door was implicitly left open to some sort of future resolution.

My hope after the final parting scene was that Ennis, in response to the pain of this moment, would slowly work hiimself up to telling Jack when he saw him in November that he was ready for more.  I choose to believe that, had Jack lived to make that November trip, Ennis would have told Jack that they could move closer in some fashion.  Ennis was not the sort to have put such a message in writing and it would not have fit on a postcard anyway.     And, as we know, a phone call would have been extremely far out of the ordinary (Annie tells us of only one while Jack was alive).  So Ennis was going to open himself up come November... maybe not completely, but moreso than he had. 

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.  Sorry for such a long post... I got on a roll...

I am with you on this one. When Ennsi says "I can stand this anymore Jack" I take it to mean that since he "can"t fix it" he is ready to move closer to Jack in some fashion. His responsibilities to his  daughters are nearly over, I think that was as big a reason as any not to move forward before.

[David]

The final lake scene "fight" was really an ultimatum.   Jack said all those unsaid things.   Ennis's collapse certainly showed that he was terrified of losing Jack.

I honestly feel that each of them left that day and processed the event differently.   Jack had a long drive up to Lightning Flat to think things over.  He obviously felt that Ennis would never change, therefore he tells his folks that he's going to divorce Lureen and bring Randall up there to live.    Meanwhile, Ennis obviously realizes that he can't "stand it" anymore, so he has to fix it.   That means dump Cassie and tell Jack it's time for some changes when they meet in November.

Jacks death unfortunately just pushes Ennis farther back into the closet I think.

[alec716]

I am with you on this one. When Ennsi says "I can stand this anymore Jack" I take it to mean that since he "can"t fix it" he is ready to move closer to Jack in some fashion. His responsibilities to his  daughters are nearly over, I think that was as big a reason as any not to move forward before.

Exactly my hope.  And I like your point about the eventual end of his child support-paying days, which would free him up economically.

In their final scene by the lake, Ennis FINALLY realized that the could not stand it, he was going to summon the courage, inch by inch, to fix it.  As we all know, Ennis believed that what cannot be fixed must be tolerated.  What's the corollary?  If you can't stand it, fix it. He needed to evolve in order to survive.  For 20 years, he tried to stand it.  Couldn't.  At the last meeting with Jack, he tried to bluff his way out of it.  Couldn't.  Only option left was to get a grip and move himself forward.  I am not normally known for being this optimistic in life  , but this is what my gut tells me and my heart wants to believe.  Ennis gave Jack an ultimatum and shocked himself into growth in the process.  Pain is a great motivator, especially in combination with love.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

Oh my God, this is extremely fascinating...

JakeTwist, I see what you're saying about Ennis' treatment of Cassie -- except I don't think of it as 'narcissistic,' considering that Ennis appears to have very low self-esteem. I feel bad for Cassie but I understand what Ennis was going through and why he was so repressed.

My jury's verdict is still out on whether or not Jack was ready to move on from Ennis. Fascinatingly, I think this is one of the beautiful ambiguities in the story that I will go back and forth on repeatedly. Right now... I think he might have put his mind to it, at least thought hard about starting something up with Randall, but I think he would never be able to go through with it. He loved Ennis too much.

I think Ennis was starting to make a change too and that's what makes Jack's untimely death all the sadder. Oh, I'm gonna freakin' cry...

I've gone through this too which is why, contrary to what some people think, in my opinion Jack and Ennis's relationship was doomed since the day Jack went to see him after the divorce and Ennis rejected him. Even if he hadn't died, and Ennis has changed his mind, I don't think they would've survived a as couple. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but from a reality point of view, I seriously doubt their relationship had any future from that moment on, no matter how much they loved each other. They'd need extensive professional therapy for it to work. Twenty years of struggle and pain is too much for a person to handle, I think. You end up feeling kind of numb.

This theory is undoubtedly valid but I have to disagree. I think, had Jack not died, if Ennis did make a positive change then Jack would have stuck with him even if he was still in disbelief that Ennis had changed. They both experienced the same pain, in a way, as well. Maybe it's cause I'm so taken with their love but I can definitely see them, if they are both willing to live their 'sweet life,' committing themselves to making it work.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Exactly my hope.  And I like your point about the eventual end of his child support-paying days, which would free him up economically.

In their final scene by the lake, Ennis FINALLY realized that the could not stand it, he was going to summon the courage, inch by inch, to fix it.  As we all know, Ennis believed that what cannot be fixed must be tolerated.  What's the corollary?  If you can't stand it, fix it. He needed to evolve in order to survive.  For 20 years, he tried to stand it.  Couldn't.  At the last meeting with Jack, he tried to bluff his way out of it.  Couldn't.  Only option left was to get a grip and move himself forward.  I am not normally known for being this optimistic in life  , but this is what my gut tells me and my heart wants to believe.  Ennis gave Jack an ultimatum and shocked himself into growth in the process.  Pain is a great motivator, especially in combination with love.

Forgot to mention that "I cant stand..." in not in the book or my copy of the screenplay'.
I think Jack would have stuck with Ennis no matter what, He does seem resigned to the fishing trips( they would have done some fishing, the river was always nearby and Ennis doen't take his gear out of the truck for nothing) and you see this in their easy familar interaction by the fire conversation which the last of we see is"Tell you what....truth is......" Jacks look as Ennis drives away to me a look of anger and sadness that if things never chage to as the book says "let it be..." accept things as they are.
 

[alec716]

Jacks look as Ennis drives away to me a look of anger and sadness that if things never chage to as the book says "let it be..." accept things as they are.
 

I know that the expression on Jack's face as Ennis drives away is one of about seven million shots in this charmingly and maddeningly ambiguous movie ... I see the anger and sadness that you see, along with the resignation and yes, the commitment.  I realize that Jack may well have been planning a life with Randall, but I believe that he would have continued to see Ennis as much as possible.  Had Ennis made any progess toward more availability, Randall just might have found himself alone.  Nothing short of the death that found Jack could have kept him from Ennis.  Randall was merely a more available substitute, even if Jack loved him also.  Sez me.