TOTW 22/08: Do you think they kept each others postcards?

[Penthesilea]

Howdy BetterMostians ,


One outcome of the questionnaire a while ago was that many people seem to embrace highly speculative topics. Additionally, I intend to include polls more often, and this week's question lends itself to a poll. So here ya go .

Ennis and Jack communicated mostly through postcards to set a date for meeting up. We see Ennis's reaction to the very first postcard from Jack, the first sign of life in four years. Clearly an absolute highlight for Ennis .

But, isn't it somewhat sentimental to keep those postcards (not saying so, just asking)?  Something a teenage girl would surely do, but a grown up, rough cowboy?  And even if they had wanted to keep the cards, would they have dared to?
If you think they kept postcards, what do you think? All of them? Neatly stored away in some hidden place? Or maybe they kept the most recent one for a while, lying in some drawer?
Just tell us what you think!

Do you think they kept each others postcards?



This photo creation comes courtesy of Quiplash,
and is used with permission under the Creative Common license.

[Brown Eyes]

I voted yes, because I actually think it seems likely or plausible for each character. 

I think Ennis might actually be capable of being very sentimental about that kind of thing despite his outward facade and insecurities.  It seems particularly likely that he would save them following his divorce when it would be much easier for him to hide them.  Maybe while he was still married he may not have saved them.  But, even then, I suppose he might be able to come up with a way to save them in secret.

And, I think since we have clear proof of Jack's sentimental attachment to Ennis-related objects (i.e. the shirts in Lightning Flat), I think that it's not much of a stretch to imagine him keeping the postcards too.  If he found a place to hide the shirts he could surely find a place to hide postcards. 

I think the likelihood of Jack keeping the postcards is slightly higher than the likelihood with Ennis.  But, still, I do believe it's plausible that both would have saved them.

[belbbmfan]

Good question Chrissi.

I voted 'yes' too. I think they both must have been so desperate to have something that reminded them of each other (even subconsciously when Ennis started wearing blue after he and Jack had separated), they would have kept the postcards. I was wondering whether Ennis would dare to keep them somewhere hidden. Alma might find them, while cleaning or something. But then I realised that certainly further into their marriage, Ennis didn't bother to use the fishing gear or even pretend to have used it, to keep up appearances. So, my guess is that he kept them somewhere.

As for Jack, I agree with Amanda. Keeping the postcards fits very well with Jack.

And I have a question regarding one of the postcards. Remember when Alma came home one day with the groceries and the mail and she found a card from Jack there? She put it under the newspaper (the one with the 'honey' add). I was wondering if Ennis ever found this card. Come to think of it, Alma could have sabotaged their meeting if she wanted to by intercepting Jack's postcard, as she was apparently dealing with the family mail.

[Penthesilea]

And I have a question regarding one of the postcards. Remember when Alma came home one day with the groceries and the mail and she found a card from Jack there? She put it under the newspaper (the one with the 'honey' add). I was wondering if Ennis ever found this card. Come to think of it, Alma could have sabotaged their meeting if she wanted to by intercepting Jack's postcard, as she was apparently dealing with the family mail.

That postcard read: Ennis, see you in a couple weeks. Fish should be jumping. Jack

No date mentioned. Either the date had already been set previously, or this was the answer to a card with a suggested date, written by Ennis (much like the last postcard).
So had Alma hidden/thrown away the card, it would have had either no effect at all (in case the date was already firmly set, in whatever way), or Ennis would have waited for a response from Jack, would have probably asked Alma, had written another card to Jack, etc. It just happened (and still does) that a postcard gets lost in the mail sometimes.
Throwing away the card would not have kept them from seeing each other.

For the 'What if she had thrown away all cards from Jack?' If she had tried to cut the contact completely?
Ennis sooner or later would have tried to call Jack, or Jack had driven up in person, or whatever. Second, I don't think she had the chance to do so. Ennis worked ranch work, long and irregular hours. He must have been home during the day sometimes, so she couldn't control the mail completely. But the most important reason is that I think it wasn't in her character. You have to have a good deal of futiveness to try something like that. Not Alma.

[mariez]

Great topic, Chrissi!

I voted "yes" also - I guess it would actually be a "probably, yes."  And it's not only a matter of picturing them "saving" the postcards, but a matter of not being able to picture either one of them just tossing them out, throwing them away, especially when I think of the way Ennis kind of caressed that first card.  So, for him, especially, it may not have been a matter of consciously thinking "I'm going to save all these postcards in a certain place" as much as a kind of reflexive reaction of not being able to part with them.

 

And I have a question regarding one of the postcards. Remember when Alma came home one day with the groceries and the mail and she found a card from Jack there? She put it under the newspaper (the one with the 'honey' add). I was wondering if Ennis ever found this card. Come to think of it, Alma could have sabotaged their meeting if she wanted to by intercepting Jack's postcard, as she was apparently dealing with the family mail.

Good question, Fabienne.  I don't get the impression in that scene that Alma is trying to hide the card from Ennis, so much as she just can't bear looking at it at that moment.  Kind of like - "out of sight, out of mind."  I think if she had wanted to keep it from Ennis, she would have actually thrown it away or ripped it up and I can't see her doing that either - even if it was a postcard that wasn't merely confirming a previous arrangement.  I get the impression Alma felt that the entire situation was pretty much out of her control.

Marie

[Fran]

Ennis no, Jack yes

I'm going to have to say no with regard to Ennis.  For one thing, he's super private about his relationship with Jack.  I don't think he'd want to take a chance that Alma would discover those postcards and ask why he was saving them. 

If Ennis had saved the postcards, you bet Alma would have found them.  She had years to try to figure out what was wrong in her marriage.  I can easily picture her snooping around his stuff.  (And I can also see her admitting it at Thanksgiving:  "I looked through that box.  I saw those postcards you saved, Ennis, and not one little card or love note from me or the girls.  I know what it means....")

If anyone saved the postcards, it'd be Jack.  He's sentimental, and I think he would like holding on to something from Ennis, even if it was only postcards with cryptic messages on them.

As to whether Alma ever intercepted one of the postcards, I would think not.  She wouldn't dare throw away any of Ennis's mail  because she'd be scared of the consequences.

[Mikaela]

I voted "Yes".

I think even Ennis wouldn't be able to throw away the card that re-established his contact with Jack after those four f**n years. He found some where to keep that one safe, I imagine. And I think he also probably kept the cards from the time after his divorce - there was no Alma-related need to get rid of those, and they *were* little tangible reminders of Jack. Ennis would hold Jack close in every way he thought sufficiently "safe and secure" - keeping the easily hidden postcards and looking at them now and them was one such means of closeness.

And Jack - yes, I do think he kept the cards too. Perhaps not all of them, but some - and I think that would be the early years' ones, before he got more disillusioned and despaired of Ennis ever coming around to the Sweet Life. I can imagine Jack treasuring his "You Bet" card nearly as much as the shirts.

[Brown Eyes]

I can imagine Jack treasuring his "You Bet" card nearly as much as the shirts.

You bet!   I can surely imagine that too Bud.

[Artiste]

How many postcards were made for this movie?

[Kd5000]

I tend to agree with Fran.  Ennis was just so closeted about the whole affair. Plus he seemed so utilitarian.  The trailer at the end of the movie, did it have anything sentimental (photos of his daughters) other then Jack's shirt?  It seemed most sparse.  I think Ennis thought Jack would always be around. Why keep a postcard when you see him every six months?? Ennis probably regrets not keeping the postcards though or whatever other things that would remind him of Jack.

And their wives. Lureen doesn't seem like the type who would go poking around and asking questions unlike Alma who checks up her husband's fishing equipment.

[Brown Eyes]

I tend to agree with Fran.  Ennis was just so closeted about the whole affair. Plus he seemed so utilitarian.  The trailer at the end of the movie, did it have anything sentimental (photos of his daughters) other then Jack's shirt?  It seemed most sparse.  I think Ennis thought Jack would always be around. Why keep a postcard when you see him every six months?? Ennis probably regrets not keeping the postcards though or whatever other things that would remind him of Jack.

And their wives. Lureen doesn't seem like the type who would go poking around and asking questions unlike Alma who checks up her husband's fishing equipment.

But, I think Ennis's shrine to Jack in his trailer closet is very sentimental.  And, he even goes so far as to include a postcard.  He's so thoughtful about that little shrine... reversing the shirts, straightening the postcard when it's not quite perfectly aligned, etc.  I agree that in his outward life, Ennis is very pragmatic, but he seems to really have a side that's surpisingly sentimental (if that closet is any evidence) and his desire to linger so long in Jack's Lightning Flat bedroom also seems to indicate he has a sentimental side.

I think Ennis is very sensitive.  He likes to touch and caress things (the tent ties after TS1, the first postcard from Jack, all the things in Jack's old bedroom)... He also seems to love to smell things... Jack's shirt, Junior's sweater, etc.  I think this sensitivity betrays another side of Ennis.  And, I recall one interview with Heath where he talked about his belief that Ennis was particularly sensitive to light.  To me, this general sensitivity is an interesting underbelly to the rough-tough exterior facade Ennis likes to present to the world.

[Fran]

But, I think Ennis's shrine to Jack in his trailer closet is very sentimental.  And, he even goes so far as to include a postcard.  He's so thoughtful about that little shrine... reversing the shirts, straightening the postcard when it's not quite perfectly aligned, etc.  I agree that in his outward life, Ennis is very pragmatic, but he seems to really have a side that's surpisingly sentimental (if that closet is any evidence) and his desire to linger so long in Jack's Lightning Flat bedroom also seems to indicate he has a sentimental side.

Yes.  But I'm thinking Ennis was only able to show his sentimental side after Jack was dead, when it was essentially too late for the great love of his life, long after those postcards had been discarded.  I think finding the shirts in Jack's closet in Lightning Flat was his wake-up call, when it finally sank in that he and Jack could have had a life together or that he should have at least been brave enough to give it a try.  As that old song goes, you don't know what you've got till it's gone....

But I do feel that it certainly would have been a nice touch if both Jack and Ennis had somehow managed to save all of their postcards because, even though they were written cryptically and didn't contain expressions of their feelings for each other, they were, nevertheless, tangible proof of their relationship.

[Katie77]

No......I dont think they would have, because men dont usually save things like that. Even with the shirts, as wonderful as that was, it was quite a bit out of the ordinary for a man to be so sentimental as to keep those shirts.  In fact, I dont think this has ever been discussed, but I wonder when Jack went back to his folks place after sheepherding on Brokeback, did his mother get his clothes out to wash and  ask about the blood on the shirt, and Jack maybe told her about Ennis, and it was her who hung the shirts in the closet........(maybe thats another thing that could be discussed here).

On the other hand, maybe Jack did keep some postcards from Ennis, and that is why Laureen was so snarly with Ennis when he phoned after Jack died.  Maybe she had found them and that is how she worked out that Jack and Ennis were more than "just friends".

I definately dont think Ennis would have kept them, not before Jack died anyway.....he was just too scared and paranoid........but that all disappeared after Jack died when he hung the shirts and a postcard on his closet door.

[Fran]

No......I dont think they would have, because men dont usually save things like that. Even with the shirts, as wonderful as that was, it was quite a bit out of the ordinary for a man to be so sentimental as to keep those shirts.  In fact, I dont think this has ever been discussed, but I wonder when Jack went back to his folks place after sheepherding on Brokeback, did his mother get his clothes out to wash and  ask about the blood on the shirt, and Jack maybe told her about Ennis, and it was her who hung the shirts in the closet........(maybe thats another thing that could be discussed here).

Sue, I think this would make for an interesting discussion topic.  Why don't you PM it to Chrissi in case she misses it in this thread.

[Kerry]

Much as my sentimental, overly romantic self would love to say "Yes," I suspect "No" is closer to reality. Why? Because in the short story, Ennis visited Higgin's Gift Shop and "busied himself with the postcard rack," to purchase the postcard he tacked to the inside of his cupboard door. If he had kept one of Jack's original postcards, he wouldn't have had to purchase the postcard from Higgin's Gift Shop after Jack's death. He would have tacked-up one of Jack's own  postcards. As for Jack, I don't believe he would have risked keeping such personal items in his marital home (Lureen seems to me to be the type of wife who'd go through Jack's pockets), which is why he kept the shirts at Lightning Flat. Perhaps Jack kept Ennis' cards at Lightning Flat, but I doubt he'd want his mother to come upon them when cleaning. Cold hard reality. Breaks my heart to vote "No." 

[Fran]

Much as my sentimental, overly romantic self would love to say "Yes," I suspect "No" is closer to reality.

Very well stated, Kerry.

[Penthesilea]

Because in the short story, Ennis visited Higgin's Gift Shop and "busied himself with the postcard rack," to purchase the postcard he tacked to the inside of his cupboard door. If he had kept one of Jack's original postcards, he wouldn't have had to purchase the postcard from Higgin's Gift Shop after Jack's death. He would have tacked-up one of Jack's own  postcards.

I beg to disagree. Ennis didn't buy just any postcard, or any postcard with a mountain scene, he wanted a postcard from Brokeback Mountain. Linda Higgins ordered it especially for him. So even if he had had cards from Jack (with Texas themes), he still might have wanted one from Brokeback.

But for the records, I also voted 'No'. I'll explain later.

[tampatalon]

I think Jack yes and Ennis no cause if Ennis did save postcards he would have
hung one of Jacks with the shirt?

TampaTalon^">

[Penthesilea]

Sue, I think this would make for an interesting discussion topic.  Why don't you PM it to Chrissi in case she misses it in this thread.

Didn't miss it (and additionally got a PM from Sue). Thanks for bringing it up and suggesting it, Sue and Fran. I will make it a TOTW soon, so hold your horses on that one .

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I voted yes for both of them, but I agree Ennis would be more likely to keep them after the divorce.

In the movie, one of the screw up is you see a crumpled envelope above the post card where he writes "You Bet.", like he is copying the address off of it. Upon leaving the post office he puts this it in his shirt pocket. He could have hid his post cards in the glove box of his truck, or over the sun visor. Jack could have done the same thing but I think he had an office, maybe a drawer that could be locked.

[ifyoucantfixit]

         What Kerry said !!

[Artiste]

Kerry, you say:
   ...    Lureen seems to me to be the type of wife who'd go through Jack's pockets), which is why he kept the shirts at Lightning Flat.                  

...........

Kerry, and what about Alma, did she say something like that about Ennis when he was her husband?

[Kerry]

Kerry, you say:
    ...    Lureen seems to me to be the type of wife who'd go through Jack's pockets), which is why he kept the shirts at Lightning Flat.                 

...........

Kerry, and what about Alma, did she say something like that about Ennis when he was her husband?

A lot of people love Lureen, but I'm personally not fond of her, which is why I made the "Jack's pockets" comment, I guess. Mea culpa!

[Artiste]

Merci Kerry!

You may have a point
there... since you prefer one over the other !!


It seems that females like Alma best while males prefer Lureen, as a woman ??

So, maybe Alma is also like Lureen, in some ways since she did checked her husband's Ennis thing(s), as that is what she said in the movie?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Katie77]

Yeah....lets face it......most women are curious snoopy little sticky beaks.....

Wherever they might have hidden the postcards, a clever woman would find them.....no doubts about that.....

[loneleeb3]

I voted yes.
I guess thats just the Jack in me though.
It's hard to guess but I'd like to think they did.
I know lots of men that are pack rats.
When my Grandfather died we found old letters and stuff he had kept since before the war.
Ya never know. Sometimes still waters run awfully deep.

[loneleeb3]

Yeah....lets face it......most women are curious snoopy little sticky beaks.....

Wherever they might have hidden the postcards, a clever woman would find them.....no doubts about that.....

Lord Sister, you can say that twice and mean it!
The stories I could tell! 

[Brown Eyes]

A lot of people love Lureen, but I'm personally not fond of her, which is why I made the "Jack's pockets" comment, I guess. Mea culpa!

Well, it's no secret that I really like Lureen, so I'll certainly defend her.

In this context, about whether or not Jack was keeping the postcards... I don't think Lureen would care enough to go through his stuff.  I really don't think it matters that much to her.

She's not the kind of woman who has time to try to micro manage her family (made clear in the blue parka scene).  And, I think she tacitly knows something is going on (though I'm sure she doesn't quite know how to put all the pieces together until her phone conversation with Ennis) and she's even encouraging about Jack visiting with Ennis.  She's defending Jack and wondering why Ennis doesn't come down to Texas to visit.

And, I've said a million times in different threads, that I think she was far more charitable with Ennis on the phone than she really needed to be.  I think her urge to tell Ennis that Jack said Brokeback was his "favorite place" was tremendously kind.  Especially since by then she would have fully understood what she was admitting and telling him.  And, her decision to urge Ennis to visit Jack's folks about the ashes likewise seems very generous.   She really didn't need to do either of those things.  Maybe her affect was cold on the phone... but what she says to Ennis really is very nice.

I think Jack and Lureen were friends.  Genuine friends.  They were both living outside the gender norms for their time and I think they had a connection somehow over that (even if Lureen couldn't quite articulate what was going on with Jack).  They became bitter towards the end, but somehow that seems almost to be expected.

[Artiste]

Merci Atz !

I do like your post very much, especially part of your last sentences:
        I think Jack and Lureen were friends.  Genuine friends.  They were both living outside the gender norms for their time and I think they had a connection somehow over that (even if Lureen couldn't quite articulate what was going on with Jack).  They became bitter towards the end, but somehow that seems almost to be expected.

 
 
 
   
.........

Atz, may I stress BOTH living OUTSIDE the gender norms of their time... and that is one way that I think that Lureen is lesbian, or at least bisexual at least, maybe? ? But everyone disagreed with me previously on my thread about that and some even got angry, unfortunately, without discussing it!

I find that Lureen is no fool and knows what is happening, even with postcards between Jack and Ennis, likely !!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Brown Eyes]

I think Lureen is living outside her "gender norm" for Texas in the '60s and '70s because she's primarily interested in being a businesswoman.  I'm sure that would have been a somewhat unusual choice in her community back then.  She clearly has a lot of skill and ambition within a field that was probably almost entirely male dominated.  I'm sure there weren't too, too many female farm machine executives in her circles.  But, this is clearly what she wants to do.

[Penthesilea]

Atz, may I stress BOTH living OUTSIDE the gender norms of their time... and that is one way that I think that Lureen is lesbian, or at least bisexual at least, maybe? ? But everyone disagreed with me previously on my thread about that and some even got angry, unfortunately, without discussing it!

For discussions about the question whether Lureen is a lesbian, please use the according thread. It's here:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,16321.0.html

This thread is not about Lureen's sexuality.
Thank you.

[Shasta542]

Ennis no, Jack yes

Chrissi--that's a great picture in the first post. I love it.

Ennis bought a new postcard to remind him of their communications when apart; Lureen found Ennis's postcards in Jack's belongings after his death.

That's my vote thinking/basis.

[Artiste]

Penthesilea, there is nothing wrong about talking if Lureen is a lesbian or not; to me it was hinted on this thread by someone other than I... so keep care to be polite !

I do agree that you added that thread subject!

Is or are there subject(s) now also discusssed or hinted which you could add too mentioned by other members here on this thread ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

Ennis no, Jack yes

Chrissi--that's a great picture in the first post. I love it.

Ennis bought a new postcard to remind him of their communications when apart; Lureen found Ennis's postcards in Jack's belongings after his death.

That's my vote thinking/basis.

 I have had a rethink and decided,Ennis and Jack both no. In the filmand the S.S, Lureen talking to Ennis says "would have let you know,but wasn't sure about your name or address.Jack kept his friends' addresses in his head"
I can never decide whether that is really true, or if she does know Ennis's address and is just being spiteful.After all she admits she knows of the fishing trips.
But if she is being honest, then Jack could not have kept any of the postcards,as she would at least have got the town from the post mark, and knowing his name it would not be a big job to track Ennis down.
Ennis at the end of the S.S has to go and buy a postcard of BBM to tack up with the shirts, so it would seem he kept nothing either.
I suspect they both thought it would go on for ever, much as it had done for 20 years, and saw no real reason to keep the postcards.
I find it makes it all the more poignant, that Jack has kept the shirts, and Ennis then keeps them, reversed, and next to a card of BBM.
The saddest thing of all, in the S.S, is when the postcard Ennis has asked to be ordered, arrives in the shop, it is just 30 cents.
There is something so completely desolate about that, 2 old shirts and a 30 cent postcard. Not a lot to show for 20 years of love.

As it says in the S.S the huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him, when processing Jacks' death.Which is in direct contrast to their time on BBM when in life they were flying in the euphoric bitter air,looking down on the plain below.

Every time I watch the film or read the story again, something else strikes me.How can so much be packed into so few pages.I know the answer, Proulx is a genius, but it seems every single word was chosen.Not one is excess to requirements.

Sorry for straying off topic a bit there.BBM always gets me sidetracked.

[loneleeb3]

There is something so completely desolate about that, 2 old shirts and a 30 cent postcard. Not a lot to show for 20 years of love.

Thats truth like a dagger!

[Brown Eyes]

Thats truth like a dagger!

Yes, I completely agree about the sadness of Ennis not having a lot to hold onto after such a long relationship.  I particularly think it's sad that he doesn't have a picture of Jack.  That would be really hard.

[optom3]

Yes, I completely agree about the sadness of Ennis not having a lot to hold onto after such a long relationship.  I particularly think it's sad that he doesn't have a picture of Jack.  That would be really hard

Another thing that always gets me in relation to the final postcard scene, is that we know in the S.S there is no smell of Jack or BBM leftin the shirts,yet after the reunion kiss, when they go upstairs to Alma, Ennis is aware that he can smell Jack on him.
So many opposites in this wonderful thing called Brokeback.Every single thing is bittersweet. I wish that Ennis hd just kept the 1st card, that he almost lovingly caresses.

[Gabreya]

I think they each did. I mean, it's not uncommon for loved ones to keep eachothers postcards or letters. It's to show how they're holding on to what they have and how much they care.

[BelAir]

(I am voting and typing my reply before reading the other responses...)

I think it would be lovely if they had, but I voted no b/c I think Lureen would have found them... and then not been able to give the excuse about "Jack keeping all his friends address in his head" (yes, I realize she could have been lying with that whole story).  I also think if Ennis had kept the postcards, he wouldn't have gone to the store to buy the one.

I think mostly we wish they would have kept them, but no, I don't think they did...

(all speculation anyway, obviously...   )

[Brokeback_Dev]

I voted yes.  Of course they kept each others post cards.  duh!

[HerrKaiser]

Well, for sure the overt evidence that Ennis kept at least one is clear from the last scene.

I suspect the last thing Lureen would have done would be to go on a search and find mission, suspecting that there was something to find out about her husband. No way. She was quite independent, confident, and Jack unfortunately was under appreciated by her. An under appreciated person is not a target of suspicion. Jack would have been quite able to have a secret hiding place to store his memories; and the manner in which he held to Ennis' absense indicates to me that Jack would have had a large collection of memorabilia.

Ennis, I think, would have also held onto the cards. The constant need to assess their relationship in current-day terms is a mistake; always have said that. for Ennis' time and frame of mind and situation, he knew he had little to show for his long term relationship except that which resided in his heart...and notes in Jack's own hand. Fear makes people turn to means of comfort that may otherwise be considered unnecessary. Ennis, I suspect, had a good sampling of cards stached away for those lonely times when he needed to reach out for Jack...when Jack was not there. Jack's shirt is evidence, also, of Ennis' sentimentality regarding physical items that bridge the gap of distance and loss.

[Gabreya]

They kept eachother's postcards, I know.

[Artiste]

Merci Herrkaiser!

Your post is very interesting!!

You say:
      Well, for sure the overt evidence that Ennis kept at least one is clear from the last scene.

I suspect the last thing Lureen would have done would be to go on a search and find mission, suspecting that there was something to find out about her husband. No way. She was quite independent, confident, and Jack unfortunately was under appreciated by her. An under appreciated person is not a target of suspicion. Jack would have been quite able to have a secret hiding place to store his memories; and the manner in which he held to Ennis' absense indicates to me that Jack would have had a large collection of memorabilia.

Ennis, I think, would have also held onto the cards. The constant need to assess their relationship in current-day terms is a mistake; always have said that. for Ennis' time and frame of mind and situation, he knew he had little to show for his long term relationship except that which resided in his heart...and notes in Jack's own hand. Fear makes people turn to means of comfort that may otherwise be considered unnecessary. Ennis, I suspect, had a good sampling of cards stached away for those lonely times when he needed to reach out for Jack...when Jack was not there. Jack's shirt is evidence, also, of Ennis' sentimentality regarding physical items that bridge the gap of distance and loss.
 
 
         
...........

HerrKaiser, may I disagree a bit ?


Since you say:   Jack was     unfortunately was under appreciated by her (Lureen)...         , may I say that that is NOT nescessary so, because she saw, heard and tried her best. Both, Jack and Lureen got along somehow; right ?

Too, Lureen did try to see Ennis, but Jack was not interested in presenting him, remember?

I do not blame neither! I accept BOTH, since they tried !! I suppose that Jack did kept, like you are saying, Ennis's postcards; there would have been many ?

........

Concerning Ennis, it could be that he had eventually many postcards from Jack, but at first that would have been dangerous for him to do so, and that is why he had a Post Office Post but ONLY after awhile ?

Be pleasure to read your news and that of others too !
Au revoir,
hugs!

............

[Artiste]

Merci Gabreya !

But how many postcards did each kept, do you think??

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Katie77]

Another thing that always gets me in relation to the final postcard scene, is that we know in the S.S there is no smell of Jack or BBM leftin the shirts,yet after the reunion kiss, when they go upstairs to Alma, Ennis is aware that he can smell Jack on him.
So many opposites in this wonderful thing called Brokeback.Every single thing is bittersweet. I wish that Ennis hd just kept the 1st card, that he almost lovingly caresses.

For those that have lost a loved one, they will definately understand the reaction of Ennis to hold Jack's clothes up to smell them, in the hope that somehow they might get a scent of their loved one.  I know, when I lost my sister many years ago, I used to smell her clothes and it gave me something of her that was unique and human about her that I could still feel her presence, even though she was gone. Sadly, over time, the smell disappears, and there is another feeling of loss when that happens.

In Ennis's case where he had both his and Jacks shirt, he probably wanted to smell once again the odour of both him and Jack together, as well as just the presence of Jack.

And yes, the two contrasting events you mentioned above....in one, with the shirts, he wanted the smell to be there, whereas, the other time, with Jack, he wished the smell was Not there.

Back to the postcards.....I wonder if there were many postcards sent between the two of them. The fact that Ennis had to TELL Jack , in the final lake scene, that the next time would be November and not August, indicates that they worked out when they would meet again while they were together. OR, that it was a standard thing that it was always in August. If they exchanged postcards about when they were gonna meet up, Ennis would not have been so twitchy about telling Jack about the August cancellation, and would have just let him know in a postcard.

We do know that Ennis must have contacted Jack about the divorce, but he had not contacted Jack to tell him where he had moved to.

I really dont think there were many postcards to keep.

[Artiste]

Katie, why do you say:
      I really dont think there were many postcards to keep.                ?
......

Could it be that men do NOT write that much nor often??

Au revoir,
hugs!

[HerrKaiser]

Merci Herrkaiser!

Your post is very interesting!!


...........

HerrKaiser, may I disagree a bit ?


Since you say:   Jack was     unfortunately was under appreciated by her (Lureen)...         , may I say that that is NOT nescessary so, because she saw, heard and tried her best. Both, Jack and Lureen got along somehow; right ?

Too, Lureen did try to see Ennis, but Jack was not interested in presenting him, remember?

thanks artiste, but I see no evidence that Lureen 'tried her best' to build a real relationship with Jack. She was clearly controlled by her father and allowed it. She had no intention of disrupting that, even at the expense of her own husband's denigration. Jack seemed disappointed to admit that his marriage could be handled "on the phone", but Lureen seemed to share no such attitude; rather she seemed resigned to the loveless marriage, cynical, and uninterested. So, I think it is definitely fair to say Lureen underappreciated Jack and in her frame of mind/family posture, she would have had very little interest in going through any of Jack's "things".

also, it is not clear that Jack did not want Ennis to come to their (Jack and Lureen's) home. Jack simply knew Ennis would not be able to make the trip for at least two good reasons and TX was not at all the same atmostphere they so enjoyed in WY.

[Artiste]

Merci HerrKaiser

But which are the two reasons Ennis did NOT go to Jack and Lureen's home, do you think?


Could is be that Lureen had seen one of those postcards that Ennis sent?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Katie77]

thanks artiste, but I see no evidence that Lureen 'tried her best' to build a real relationship with Jack. She was clearly controlled by her father and allowed it. She had no intention of disrupting that, even at the expense of her own husband's denigration. Jack seemed disappointed to admit that his marriage could be handled "on the phone", but Lureen seemed to share no such attitude; rather she seemed resigned to the loveless marriage, cynical, and uninterested. So, I think it is definitely fair to say Lureen underappreciated Jack and in her frame of mind/family posture, she would have had very little interest in going through any of Jack's "things".

also, it is not clear that Jack did not want Ennis to come to their (Jack and Lureen's) home. Jack simply knew Ennis would not be able to make the trip for at least two good reasons and TX was not at all the same atmostphere they so enjoyed in WY.

I dont agree with you on Laureen's attitude to Jack. I think she was proud of Jack when he stood up to her father in the Thanksgiving scene, and Jack showed a lot of respect to Laureen in that same scene, mentioning about her cooking the dinner. I think that scene was there, to show that Jack and Laureen led a civil life together. It also showed, that she wanted her son to respect his father.

I do think Laureen and Jack had a civil and respectful relationship together, and I think they loved each other probably more like brother and sister. I have read posts on here from gay men who are married, and they still love and respect their wives.

I think when Jack said they could "have sex over the phone", I think that was an indication that their sex life was either non existent or just "quickie" type sex. It was also the opportunity for Jack to justify "putting the blocks" to someone else. Even though he did not tell the truth, that it was with Randall, by telling Ennis that he was at least having some sexual gratification, he was kind of taking any suspicions away, that Eniis might have of him going with another man.

I have no doubt, that they loved each other as much as they could, consiidering the circumstances.

[HerrKaiser]

Merci HerrKaiser

But which are the two reasons Ennis did NOT go to Jack and Lureen's home, do you think?

His truck would never make the trip and he would never get the extra travel time off work (or cut a couple days into his time with Jack).

[southendmd]

I voted "no" for both.

Ennis is way too paranoid to risk saving even innocent-sounding postcards from Jack.

Jack saved the shirts, long before any postcards were written.  What more did he need?

In drawing from the story, Annie suggests there are no saved postcards:

He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.

Plus, Jack had his memory of the dozy embrace; and Ennis, "suffused with a sense of pleasure", had his dreams.

[loneleeb3]

I voted "no" for both.

Ennis is way too paranoid to risk saving even innocent-sounding postcards from Jack.

Jack saved the shirts, long before any postcards were written.  What more did he need?

In drawing from the story, Annie suggests there are no saved postcards:

He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.

Plus, Jack had his memory of the dozy embrace; and Ennis, "suffused with a sense of pleasure", had his dreams.

 

[Shakesthecoffecan]

In drawing from the story, Annie suggests there are no saved postcards:

He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.

Plus, Jack had his memory of the dozy embrace; and Ennis, "suffused with a sense of pleasure", had his dreams.

Very intersting, that is a good point. Usually the answer is right there in the source material. 

[Artiste]

Merci, loneleeb3

You say:
        Ennis is way too paranoid to risk saving even innocent-sounding postcards from Jack.
         
............

Loneleeb3,
may I disagree to a certain point? Ennis at least, is protective, and therefore, I do NOT consider him too paranoid ! A lot or a bit, yes, yes!! He does cope with life... may we note, and to the best of his abilities ?

More later... if you like, may I ask ?


Au revoir,
hugs!