Author Topic: Importance of the Jimbo Scene  (Read 47870 times)

Offline Artiste

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Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2008, 11:15:38 am »
Atz:

there are more than two ways than those you mentioned, maybe ?

I find more than two !

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Offline optom3

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Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2008, 11:25:04 am »
Optom, like Atz, I find it too really interesting that you bring the screenplay into the discussion, but I not that you know that I disagree with you about your intepretation of Jimbo's frisson ! ? Totally!

I will add later.

Right now was the word FRISSON used by Annie ?

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No she doesn't, but that particular scene does not exist in the S.S.
 We are told that Jack has been with other men, in the motel scene, when it says, "Jack who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own"
This is in response to a comment from Ennis who asks, "you do it with other guys? Jack " Jack lies and says "shit no"
I think part of the purpose of the Jimbo scene is to convey to us that Jack is much more sexually driven than Ennis and possibly more at ease with his sexuality.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2008, 11:37:30 am »
Optom, you could also see it on another way, may I suggest?

Since you say:
         I disagree totally, he may have felt the frisson, and there is no direct reference as to whether it was Jack, him or both who felt it. But If I feel a man is comming onto me and I am not really interested, does that make me anti men. No it doesn't, it just means I am not interested in THAT man. Not the whole male population.
The use of the word frisson in the screenplay is ambiguous and deliberately so I think,the frisson makes Jimbo uneasy, but maybe that is because he, like Ennis is deeply closeted by fear. At no time does he seem threatening to Jack, in fact the screenplay says he remains perfectly friendly.

          


...........

A- Optom, I thought that you wrote that it was Jimbo that had the frisson? Was that so written by Annie and/or the screenplay?

B- Concerning if a man comes directly to you cruising you, of course like you say, you would not be anti-man, since you are normal in the sense of civil, and you would re-act kindly, I'm sure since that is known about you! Like you say in a way, you would NOT certainly murder Jack like the Greyhound bus murderer, nor those two who murdered Sheppard, that gay young man picked up in such a bar - as you said Earl and Rich suffered and another word which I have no time to refind! But in this case, I see Jimbo as anti-gay (as well as a con-artist) and certainly not gay-closetted), and therefore, I note that Jimbo sensed Jack's friendship as coloured:
yes, as being gay as in homosexual, right? These two would certainly not become just booze buddies, right... as they could have begun to be even if one is straight and the other gay !?


You are normal in your reactions, but in this case Jimbo surely is not that normal, since he is a con-artist and/or anti-gay, I feel ! You don't see that ? Why those word of Jimbo's and his actions going back to the others ? What is your point on that and that??

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Offline optom3

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Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2008, 06:11:37 pm »


Optom, you could also see it on another way, may I suggest?

Since you say:
         I disagree totally, he may have felt the frisson, and there is no direct reference as to whether it was Jack, him or both who felt it. But If I feel a man is comming onto me and I am not really interested, does that make me anti men. No it doesn't, it just means I am not interested in THAT man. Not the whole male population.
The use of the word frisson in the screenplay is ambiguous and deliberately so I think,the frisson makes Jimbo uneasy, but maybe that is because he, like Ennis is deeply closeted by fear. At no time does he seem threatening to Jack, in fact the screenplay says he remains perfectly friendly.

          


...........

A- Optom, I thought that you wrote that it was Jimbo that had the frisson? Was that so written by Annie and/or the screenplay?

B- Concerning if a man comes directly to you cruising you, of course like you say, you would not be anti-man, since you are normal in the sense of civil, and you would re-act kindly, I'm sure since that is known about you! Like you say in a way, you would NOT certainly murder Jack like the Greyhound bus murderer, nor those two who murdered Sheppard, that gay young man picked up in such a bar - as you said Earl and Rich suffered and another word which I have no time to refind! But in this case, I see Jimbo as anti-gay (as well as a con-artist) and certainly not gay-closetted), and therefore, I note that Jimbo sensed Jack's friendship as coloured:
yes, as being gay as in homosexual, right? These two would certainly not become just booze buddies, right... as they could have begun to be even if one is straight and the other gay !?


You are normal in your reactions, but in this case Jimbo surely is not that normal, since he is a con-artist and/or anti-gay, I feel ! You don't see that ? Why those word of Jimbo's and his actions going back to the others ? What is your point on that and that??

Au revoir,
hugs!

The entire Jimbo episode exists only in the film and screenplay. It has not been written by Proulx.
The exact words in the screenplay are,
There is something, a frisson, a vibe, that gives the clown an uneasy feeling, although he remains perfectly friendly, takes his beer stands up.
Pulling bulls of you buckaroos is just my job,save your money for your next entry fee cowboy.
Jack watches Jimbo walk over , sit down with a table full of calf ropers.

So my take is that there is no violence implied.Jimbo is either a closeted gay who thinks Jack is taking a big risk in front of a crowded bar, or he is an out gay and does not fancy Jack or even if he does still thinks it's pretty risky in the environment.
It could even be that as he sits down with the table of calf ropers, he thinks Jack is out of his depth within the hierarchy.It would appear that calf ropers are more highly paid/skilled than bull riders.
The word frisson as it appears in the text could be a frisson that Jimbo feels, or that passes between him and Jack.It is definitely ambiguous.But it does say that Jimbo remains perfectly friendly.
If it was an action prompted by gay hate, he is doing a pretty good job of hiding it,why does he not just there and then start something, he has all his calf ropers to help out.Or wait until Jack leaves and then attack him.
I think Jimbos words just mean, thanks but no thanks,then goes back to join the others.Is he gay, maybe,we will never know, but we do know that Jacks' gaydar seems to be pretty reliable, eg Ennis and Randal. and presumably the others referred to in the S.S itself.

I do think in the interest of peace and harmony, we should agree to disagree on this one Artiste. Only the screenwriters themselves know  the intended meaning of the scene.

So I guess if we really want to know we will have to ask McMurty and Ossana !!!!!

 As Proulx herself said a book is not finished until it is read,implying that our experience in life will give all of us a slightly different slant on things. We will let our imaginations fill in the blamks, but will inevitably be distorted to some extent by the lives we have led.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2008, 07:56:16 pm »
Thanks Fiona.

The comment in the screenplay that Jimbo actually walks over to a table full of calf-ropers is a really interesting thing to note as far as explaining how the bartender's comment about calf-roping may have come into the film.  Either we're supposed to use that comment to understand that some of the other folks in the bar are calf-ropers (something I've never considered before now) or ... and this really is interesting... maybe he's giving Jack a subtle hint about some of the calf-ropers maybe being more open to an advance from a man.  That may be a stretch, but it's an interesting possibility.

Something I wonder, based on this slight possibility that the bartender could be trying to give Jack a tip about guys who might be more receptive, is whether there really was a gay subculture on rodeo circuits back-in-the-day  or whether there even still is.  I think there's a longstanding, old-fashioned, and unspoken understanding that in the largely all-male old West cowboy culture, there were a lot of guys who had relationships with other guys.  And, I really do wonder how it translated to the largely all-male culture of old-time rodeo circuits.  It would be interesting to know more about the history of rodeo culture.


And, about calf-ropers vs. bull-riders.... I don't know if one would be more skilled than the other, it would mostly be a different kind of skill.  Calf-roping seems to be a lot more about precision, timing, and control of the horse.  Bull riding is more about raw courage (overcoming a certain innate fear of doing something really dangerous), strength and and understanding how to perform counter-moves on top of a bull responding to the bull's bucking pattern.  The major difference I think is economic.  A bull rider never owns the bull he rides... or he doesn't have one bull that he takes care of and trains.  The random bull he would get on at a given rodeo would be provided temporarily for the one event.  As far as I understand, a calf-roper would own his own horse, and it would have to be a well trained horse because there's a lot of coordination between the rider and horse necessary for that event.  So, I think it would be a lot more costly to be a good calf-roper.  In a certain way, I feel like at rodeos the bull riding is often the biggest and most thrilling event... in a way it's the most showy event.  So I think there are hierarchies in all the rodeo events, but it's complicated (depending on what criteria you're looking at).




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Offline Artiste

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Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2008, 11:18:40 pm »
Merci optom!

You say about Jimbo:
        There is something, a frisson, a vibe, that gives the clown an uneasy feeling, although he remains perfectly friendly, takes his beer stands up.
             


..........

Optom, I see it as of course Jimbo portraits a frisson as he is obviously anti-gay since he thinks that he is a man and that Jack is not such manly but an homo-animal in Jimbo's mindset ! Con-artist and/or anti-gay Jimbo is uneasy (yes uneasy to use your word) because Jack was honestly cruising him ! Jimbo was so surprised, that he is shocked because that an honest and sweet young man (Jack) was asking him, cruising him, and wanted to be in his friendship!  (Like one of  my sisters noted recently about her husband who is unfortunately an con-artist), I always saw, like her sees, that con-artists have no honest friend but other con-artists!! But con-artists are sweet and always liked by everyone they befriend even after they destroy someone by their crime!!

May I disagree with you that Jimbo is: remains perfectly friendly ! Please NOTE and  describe Jimbo tone which is so smooth as well at the same time a con game!! Jimbo had to SAVE FACE not only in front of the bartender, but especially to his con-artists (his friends) which he goes to talked to about Jack being gay in order to ardently save his face and to start destroying Jack's reputation!! It could very well be that Jimbo also destroyed Jack's life, since Jack was murdered later on! ?? - I think so!!

Replay often the voice and actions of Jimbo and maybe you'll see him in a very dark con-artist dangerous light?

As two examples this week:

1- When I was traveling with a man this week, I made the mystake to say that I had had a boyfriend who died! Just because I said the word boyfriend, that driver nearly slamed the brakes on the expressway to stop and his voice became very, very high in note repeating my word! So, I becamse scared and changed my word to protect myself!

2- To-day, now the same thing happen with two other men and I; I did say to one that the guy (who sings) on the CD had a good bum, and...well that started an agressive laugh towards me, which continued for hours and became like Jimbo did, more and more knowing about it ridiculing me as a gang does now!

So some straights even to-day if Canada accepts gay marriages, that certain words I can NOT use for fear not only of being rediculed but also of being violently attacked by one or many since it becomes a gang against a gay man just because one is gay!

Same way, I think that Jack was really insulted by Jimbo, the bartender, and those Jimbo anti-gay gang!!
It's a similar scene that happened to the Sheppard young man which was murdered because he was gay, but the police, the murderers say no that that was not the reason; they are con-artists like Jimbo is in that Borkeback Mountain movie scene, but Sheppard was honest ? !!

Emotions are hard by Jack after he hears Jimbo and see Jimbos actions, so strong that he (Jack) has to get out of that bar in order to save his own life, I feel !! Can you possibly see that?

Au revoir,
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Offline optom3

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Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2008, 12:51:06 am »
Thanks Fiona.

The comment in the screenplay that Jimbo actually walks over to a table full of calf-ropers is a really interesting thing to note as far as explaining how the bartender's comment about calf-roping may have come into the film.  Either we're supposed to use that comment to understand that some of the other folks in the bar are calf-ropers (something I've never considered before now) or ... and this really is interesting... maybe he's giving Jack a subtle hint about some of the calf-ropers maybe being more open to an advance from a man.  That may be a stretch, but it's an interesting possibility.

Something I wonder, based on this slight possibility that the bartender could be trying to give Jack a tip about guys who might be more receptive, is whether there really was a gay subculture on rodeo circuits back-in-the-day  or whether there even still is.  I think there's a longstanding, old-fashioned, and unspoken understanding that in the largely all-male old West cowboy culture, there were a lot of guys who had relationships with other guys.  And, I really do wonder how it translated to the largely all-male culture of old-time rodeo circuits.  It would be interesting to know more about the history of rodeo culture.


And, about calf-ropers vs. bull-riders.... I don't know if one would be more skilled than the other, it would mostly be a different kind of skill.  Calf-roping seems to be a lot more about precision, timing, and control of the horse.  Bull riding is more about raw courage (overcoming a certain innate fear of doing something really dangerous), strength and and understanding how to perform counter-moves on top of a bull responding to the bull's bucking pattern.  The major difference I think is economic.  A bull rider never owns the bull he rides... or he doesn't have one bull that he takes care of and trains.  The random bull he would get on at a given rodeo would be provided temporarily for the one event.  As far as I understand, a calf-roper would own his own horse, and it would have to be a well trained horse because there's a lot of coordination between the rider and horse necessary for that event.  So, I think it would be a lot more costly to be a good calf-roper.  In a certain way, I feel like at rodeos the bull riding is often the biggest and most thrilling event... in a way it's the most showy event.  So I think there are hierarchies in all the rodeo events, but it's complicated (depending on what criteria you're looking at).






I had never considered that the barman might have been giving Jack a subtle push in a more receptive direction. That would actually fit with the S.S .In the motel scene we are told that Jack has been riding more than bulls. We know that Jack has spent a fair amount of time, after his time on BBM and before meeting Lureen, on the rodeo circuit, as we also know he has been having sex with other men,(from the s.s itself) It is not a great leap to deduce that some of those men must have been on the rodeo circuit.
I would guess it was almost a community in itself, and with rampant homophobia, it could well be that those who are gay,or at least not full of hatred, help others the same.
It also strikes me that Proulx specifically uses the word riding.I am convinced every single word she writes is quite deliberately chosen.So Jack has been riding cowboys and bulls.Both of whom would be found on the rodeo circuit.
I like your idea, as it fits in so well with the story, and also it implies a degree of acceptance by some people at least.In this tragic tale, wouldn't it be nice, if just for once,Jack is not being rejected and humiliated yet again.O.K so he doesn't seem to get it,but neither does he get beaten to a pulp.
I will close my eyes, go to sleep and feel strangely comforted by your idea, and soothed by the sound of my oldest laughing on the phone with his girlfriend.It makes me feel quite old sometimes.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2008, 09:49:44 am »
I think there's so much suggestiveness and tension in the way that Jack looks at Jimbo, and even the way that Jimbo looks back that there's serious flirting going on, at least from Jack's side.

Jack's going through all the classic motions of picking someone up... finding an entree or pick-up line and then the cliche of buying a drink.  As a scene in the film, I personally really do think it's meant to demonstrate the frustrations Jack encounters when trying to find a male partner prior to the reunion.

This scene kind of flashed by when I first saw the movie, but in multiple viewings I'm impressed with how subtle Jake's performance is there.  It's so believable for the situation: a gay man in a Texas cowboy bar in the mid-1960s trying to scope out another guy without putting himself in danger.  On the surface, there's nothing Jack says or does that's even ambiguous.  But after his remark that Jimbo is the best rodeo clown he's worked with, he pauses, his smile widens just a little and his eyes narrow just a little. 

Jack might very well leave right afterward not only out of embarrassment but also out of a sense of danger when Jimbo goes over to the pool table and starts talking with the other guys.  However, the fact that Jack hasn't done or said anything specific might very well be the reason that he's able to leave safely -- Jimbo might suspect that this guy at the bar was trying to pick him up but Jack doesn't give him any more ammunition than that.

Interesting, the disconnect between that scene and what's in the screenplay -- Jimbo doesn't sit down at any table; he goes over and talks to a group of men playing pool.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2008, 03:16:59 pm »
Merci optom !

You say:
...     know he (Jack) has been having sex with other men,(from the s.s itself) It is not a great leap to deduce that some of those men must have been on the rodeo circuit.
I would guess it was almost a community in itself, and with rampant homophobia, it could well be that those who are gay,or at least not full of hatred, help others the same.
It also strikes me that Proulx specifically uses the word riding.I am convinced every single word she writes is quite deliberately chosen.So Jack has been riding cowboys and bulls.Both of whom would be found on the rodeo circuit.
I like your idea, as it fits in so well with the story, and also it implies a degree of acceptance by some people at least.In this tragic tale, wouldn't it be nice, if just for once,Jack is not being rejected and humiliated yet again.O.K so he doesn't seem to get it,but neither does he get beaten to a pulp.
               


.....

Optom. you may well think, likely correctly that there was some as you say:        implies a degree of acceptance by some people at least            about homosexuality in the rodeo circuit so Jack can be accepted, but surely that would be like an underground ?

Many or most, if I may count to my experiences in life: so-called men, con-artists, animals-calling themselves-men, would not accept at all any gay man,  and ridicule a homosexual readily as Jimbo did here, as well as gang up on him, like those two that murdered Sheppard for fun !!

Atz stresses the importance of the Jimbo scene... as important ! To me, this scene makes Jack sound like a whore maybe, plus shows that his liberty for sex and friendship is not only limited to a high degree, but is present as the result is dangerous because Jimbo ridicules him, and starts a gang against him!
So, eventually, we do see that Jack gets murdered by a gang ! Sad, but true that such events do happen to-day and did then too in those times!! Note that in the movie: Jack does get beaten to a pulp !! ??

Annie did not write this scene, so why did the authors of the s.s. did, plus Ang glady left it in the movie ??


Au revoir,
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Offline Artiste

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Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2008, 03:22:40 pm »
Was this excellent post deleted?

              Our Brokeback Mountain: The Story, Movie, Author, Actors and Its Impact / Brokeback Mountain: Open Forum / Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene  on: Today at 09:49:44 AM 
Quote from: atz75 on August 21, 2008, 08:30:43 PM
I think there's so much suggestiveness and tension in the way that Jack looks at Jimbo, and even the way that Jimbo looks back that there's serious flirting going on, at least from Jack's side.

Jack's going through all the classic motions of picking someone up... finding an entree or pick-up line and then the cliche of buying a drink.  As a scene in the film, I personally really do think it's meant to demonstrate the frustrations Jack encounters when trying to find a male partner prior to the reunion.

This scene kind of flashed by when I first saw the movie, but in multiple viewings I'm impressed with how subtle Jake's performance is there.  It's so believable for the situation: a gay man in a Texas cowboy bar in the mid-1960s trying to scope out another guy without putting himself in danger.  On the surface, there's nothing Jack says or does that's even ambiguous.  But after his remark that Jimbo is the best rodeo clown he's worked with, he pauses, his smile widens just a little and his eyes narrow just a little. 

Jack might very well leave right afterward not only out of embarrassment but also out of a sense of danger when Jimbo goes over to the pool table and starts talking with the other guys.  However, the fact that Jack hasn't done or said anything specific might very well be the reason that he's able to leave safely -- Jimbo might suspect that this guy at the bar was trying to pick him up but Jack doesn't give him any more ammunition than that.

Interesting, the disconnect between that scene and what's in the screenplay -- Jimbo doesn't sit down at any table; he goes over and talks to a group of men playing pool.
                   



.......

It was by: Marge_Innavera !