Love Scene

[Artiste]

Merci injest!

Your post is wow, Makes My Night happy !

You made me smile happily!

So, you compete with your son, concerning men your eye finds? Wow!

Au revoir,
hugs! So those Love Scenes by Ennis and Jack are too traditional ?? Even, if they capture your attention?

[LauraGigs]

[I just read the first 4 posts on this thread and want to reply already (then will read the other posts).  So please forgive me if I repeat something already said!]

Isn't it funny how Brokeback has been kind of a sexual (don't know the right word...) watershed or breakthrough for so many straight women?  God.  My experience definitely parallels a lot of yours that way.  I remember vaguely thinking (way back in HS or college) that seeing 2 guys making out might be a turn-on, but kind of put it out of my mind, probably like a lot of (nice) women.  Then we see this.

Now Brokeback — thanks to Ang Lee's precious sense of discretion — is maybe 1/50th as explicit as the girl/girl porn every other 13-year-old boy's probably whacked off to.  But on the other hand, it's off the charts on the romance scale.  I think Tent Scene 2 is probably the most loving romantic moment I've ever seen on film.  Ennis has been a shit to Jack all day, and he's so confused and scared.  But he knows he wants to be with Jack, and that's enough — even though once he's there, he's still completely lost.  Then Jack, — an embodiment of forgiveness and almost divine acceptance — gently shepherds Ennis through his fear.   
(It's interesting that between the two, Jack is the clumsier animal handler (getting frustrated with the sheep, thrown from the horse, etc). But he's the master handler of Ennis, who is the low-startle-point horse the first night, and the ultimate lost lamb the second... finally reaching safe shelter in Jack's arms.)

Getting back to all of us...  I have to say that it really angers me how women are on some level denied sexual recreation and release.  A reply to that might be, "Denied? How, exactly?"  And I can't specifically put my finger on a particular rule or whatever, but I hope you all know what I'm trying to say.  I mean, how many movies featuring lesbian lovemaking have been made for the entertainment of straight males?  Now how many movies featuring man-on-man have been made for us?  (Or any kind of sex, for that matter.)  It's just assumed that every guy from the age of 11 will be coming his brains out — zillions of times over his lifetime — and entire industries are devoted to helping entertain him along his way.  But us? 
Yes, there is erotica for women, but how much by comparison?  And how recently was that little cottage industry allowed to come out of its own closet?

I think that is part of the core of my empathy with Ennis and Jack.  Straight women have more in common with them than we might realize.

[retropian]

I find this an interesting topic. I recall an article in Vanity Fair Magazine that appeared about 10 years ago or so about the phenomenon of Slash Fiction. Until then, I'd never heard of it. The article explained it was about taking existing characters from literature and creating new scenarios for them that usually involved some man on man action. That Slash Fiction was produced primarily by women for the delectation of other women I thought was amazing! As a gay man, I enjoy it too!

I wonder that as gay people become accepted into the social landscape to the point that virtually no notice is taken (except by virulent homophobes)  that more women are now comfortable with imagining male-male sexual encounters in a way that wasn't possible in years past. In a way it is a closet that is opening for many women. Women who may have felt a little shame about it and kept it to themselves now have many outlets to write and read Fan and Slash fiction, or for that matter watch gay porn!

[Katie77]

What a well written and easy to undersand post, Laura. I love your use of metaphors comparing Jack with Ennis as if he were "shepherding" him and looking after him, and you are right, thats exactly what he does, and Ennis allows himself to be the novice in the arrangement, to be the shy and timid one, to be embraced into this new discovery of emotion.

Getting back to all of us...  I have to say that it really angers me how women are on some level denied sexual recreation and release.  A reply to that might be, "Denied? How, exactly?"  And I can't specifically put my finger on a particular rule or whatever, but I hope you all know what I'm trying to say.  I mean, how many movies featuring lesbian lovemaking have been made for the entertainment of straight males?  Now how many movies featuring man-on-man have been made for us?  (Or any kind of sex, for that matter.)  It's just assumed that every guy from the age of 11 will be coming his brains out — zillions of times over his lifetime — and entire industries are devoted to helping entertain him along his way.  But us? 
Yes, there is erotica for women, but how much by comparison?  And how recently was that little cottage industry allowed to come out of its own closet?

I think that is part of the core of my empathy with Ennis and Jack.  Straight women have more in common with them than we might realize.

As you guessed, many straight women might ask why you think we have been "denied".  

Speaking for myself, I dont think I was denied, because I had never gone looking for it, or wanted to go looking for it. Not because of any homophobia, but because I didnt ever think that it would be a turn on for me. If I wanted to get my "jollys" I was quite happy to do so, watching man/woman  or sometimes women/women.

Even when I went to see BBM, I realized that somewhere in the movie, it was going to be clear that these two blokes were in love, how they were going to portray it was a complete mystery to me. I thought maybe, the eye contact between them, or maybe a longer than usual hug, but never in my wildest dreams did I think it was going to be portrayed as in TS1 or TS2. So......in fact, the man/man sexual connection was virtually thrust on me, as no doubt it is on many others. I had no choice of whether I wanted to see it or not once I sat down in the theatre, and as I said in my first post, I found it embarrassing, maybe that was because I felt trapped into watching it, I dont know, all I could think of, was "thank god its dark in here". By the time TS2 came up on screen I was prepared for anything, so the shock value had gone, and I just allowed myself to enjoy the tenderness of it,

I laugh now at my initial reaction to TS1, especially now that I have seen the movie so many times I forget. Now, when I watch it, even though the sex is rough and tumble, I can feel a tenderness to it and a meaning to it.

Getting back to your comments about us being "denied", I still cant say that I am eager to watch any other man/man sexual act, but I must admit, that men kissing, embracing and outwardly showing affection to one another is something that I find very very romantic, and sensitive....and it turns me on in a sexual/romantic kind of way. Seeing two bare chested men, skin on skin, I find totally erotic, and because I have a "thing" for bare backs, to see a man touching or embracing another man's back, I find totally seductive.

But you know, as I write this, I have just realized too, that even when I saw man/woman or women/women, I was more than happy to see only the top half of their bodies too...so, in actual fact, I feel the same way viewing all sexual contact.

Then again, legs entwining is pretty much a turn on too....so I guess maybe YOU ARE RIGHT.....give us more.

[Artiste]

Merci  retropian !


You say:
         I wonder that as gay people become accepted into the social landscape to the point that virtually no notice is taken (except by virulent homophobes)   that more women are now comfortable with imagining male-male sexual encounters in a way that wasn't possible in years past. In a way it is a closet that is opening for many women. Women who may have felt a little shame about it and kept it to themselves now have many outlets to write and read Fan and Slash fiction, or for that matter watch gay porn!                 

......

 Retropian, I find that interesting in your post!

Maybe, you could make a thread of this subject?

Au revoir,
hugs!                 May Love Scenes between persons continue for us all... too!!

[optom3]

Gabreya, thank you for starting this one.  Reading it now for the first time, it seems a lot of folks have something to get off their chests, so to speak, about these scenes.

To try to stay on topic, I, as a mostly-straight (I've kissed a couple girls myself, Fiona:), and it was lovely) woman, was gigantically turned on by both sex scenes.  Number 1, helllllooooo, it was Heath and Jake, for goodness' sake, and number 2, it was finally the culmination of what we, as viewers, knew would be the outcome (no pun intended, sorry), but that they, as Ennis and Jack, weren't sure would actually happen.  So the intrigue and mystery and waiting only added to the excitement of that first night.  Honestly, I didn't think it would be as quick as it was, but I'm guessing that's something the censors controlled, rather than truly reflecting reality between two men.  But then again, I've never in real life, seen two men making love for the first time, so what do I know?

I think everyone has certain sexual preferences, for lots of reasons.  Maybe based on what they've seen in the movies as they were growing up, or seen in real life, or something a lover turned them on to, or any number of other things.  I've never in my life judged two people who wanted to be together.  And if there's love involved, as opposed to just like or lust, then all the better.

It is unfortunate for men in this society, that they don't get the approval and/or opportunity, to express their affection or sadness or other emotions with men.  But women get to, without a second glance.  This has always bothered me, that old pat-two-or-three-times-hard-on-the-back hug thing that men do.  I think that's part of why I like BBM so much.  Ennis and Jack, they never did that.  Every time, it was either all or nothing between them, and when I say that, I mean, it started as a look, several looks actually, and a handshake.  Every reunion thereafter, including their final moments together (ouch!), was marked with the most giant of hugs and happiness and love oozing out of both of them.  I think they set an example that all men should see.  It's okay to express your emotions, not just to the women in your life, but to every person in your life.

And I agree with another thing on this thread.  Whenever I had a nightmare as a child and as a teenager back in the 80's, which was a lot, there was never a second's hesitation in crawling into bed between my mom and dad, and being comforted by both of them, back to slumber.  Was a simpler time then, I guess.  Sad to say.  I know I couldn't have made it through a lot of nights, without them there to assure me there'd be better dreams to come.  Some nights now, when I can't sleep, I drive over to my mom and dad's empty house, and crawl into that bed, somewhere in the crack, between the two pillows, where all my nightmares stopped...

I agree with pretty much all you say.The saddest thing is,most men will never know the peace,joy and comfort, of being able to really hug another man.Of being able to snuggle up and derive the very real comfort that such closeness brings.My husband has a very good friend,whose stepdaughter recently had something truly horrendous happen to her.The friend and his wife now live here, and the stepfather was obviously very distressed about the whole incident.Yet he could not, would not cry.Also him and my husband did that slap on the back thing.
In direct contrast, I flung my arms round my friend, the girls mother and we clung on for grim death, while she sobbed and I just held her.I even brushed her hair off her face as she was getting so hot and sticky.I love her as a really good friend.It was just one human reaching out to try and ease anothers pain.The 2 men of course,had over the years and because of society,no such release. As they left, the  woman was visibly calmer than her husband, who was obviously struggling to hold back the tears.I find that very sad.
In the same way I find it sad, that I have to tell my middle son, not to mention getting into bed with me when he is scared.
So to see Ennis and Jack hug so violently at the reunion scene,crushing to each other as if they are trying to crawl under the others skin is a refreshing change.Most of us know, what it feels like to hug someone so hard you never want to let them go.It is as if by so doing you can literally imprint their body onto yours.In BBM it is a love and sex thing.It works as well as it does, because we see sex and romance.Even the last trip where we see a glimpse of Ennis wth his arm round Jack in the tent.Both fast asleep.
I am so glad to ba a woman and to be able to derive comfort and affection from both sexes, how much do men miss out on? I hope one day that it will be just as natural for men to hug as women.
Heath had it so right when commenting on the scenes he said, it's just another human being.That I think is why all we see is so believable.

[Mandy21]

So to see Ennis and Jack hug so violently at the reunion scene,crushing to each other as if they are trying to crawl under the others skin is a refreshing change.Most of us know, what it feels like to hug someone so hard you never want to let them go.It is as if by so doing you can literally imprint their body onto yours.

Fiona, I really love the way you worded that -- "imprint their body onto yours".  It's funny, I've had lots of discussions with men about hugs.  Did you know that most men actually have separate types of hugs for different types of people?  I had never known this before, but got into a discussion several years ago with a couple straight male friends, and one of them started talking, and the other one, I could see from his eyes, knew exactly what the first guy was talking about.  And these were two gorgeous, sexy guys.  I wish I would have had a recorder of some kind, cause I don't remember exactly every type of hug they described.  There are, apparently, hugs where you slap a man on the back, hugs where you tap a woman on the back, hugs where you rub a woman on the back, hugs where you almost touch pelvises with a woman, hugs where you press your pelvis against a woman, hugs where you sidle up next to and tease a woman, hugs where you have an erection accidentally and don't touch pelvises cause you don't want her to notice, hugs where you want to get away quickly, hugs where you want to stay forever, the list just went on and on.  And guys, some guys at least, apparently have all these different kinds of hugs established in their protocol.  Like I said, I'd never though much about hugs before, I've always been a big hugger.  But ever after that conversation, I think about every hug I give and what it might be saying to the other person.  To me, hugs are instinctual at the moment they happen.  But I found it hilarious that men might be thinking about it differently.

[optom3]

Fiona, I really love the way you worded that -- "imprint their body onto yours".  It's funny, I've had lots of discussions with men about hugs.  Did you know that most men actually have separate types of hugs for different types of people?  I had never known this before, but got into a discussion several years ago with a couple straight male friends, and one of them started talking, and the other one, I could see from his eyes, knew exactly what the first guy was talking about.  And these were two gorgeous, sexy guys.  I wish I would have had a recorder of some kind, cause I don't remember exactly every type of hug they described.  There are, apparently, hugs where you slap a man on the back, hugs where you tap a woman on the back, hugs where you rub a woman on the back, hugs where you almost touch pelvises with a woman, hugs where you press your pelvis against a woman, hugs where you sidle up next to and tease a woman, hugs where you have an erection accidentally and don't touch pelvises cause you don't want her to notice, hugs where you want to get away quickly, hugs where you want to stay forever, the list just went on and on.  And guys, some guys at least, apparently have all these different kinds of hugs established in their protocol.  Like I said, I'd never though much about hugs before, I've always been a big hugger.  But ever after that conversation, I think about every hug I give and what it might be saying to the other person.  To me, hugs are instinctual at the moment they happen.  But I found it hilarious that men might be thinking about it differently.

That makes me laugh so much.God bless them,they even have to analyse and tabulate their hugs. What happened to spontaneity. I am going to watch my husband now !!!
I have always been big on hugs,in fact if I don't think I have had my daily quota from the kids I ask for more.

The idea of standing there and thinking.O.K so this is wifes best friend, have to hug her,need to make it look sincere, don't want it to last too long though, just in case John boy downstairs gets any ideas,but can't just be a quick one as that will look insincere,on the other hand,husband is standing by watching,so going to have to calculate this one very carefully.Also she has put some weight on recently, will my arms go round her ? What if they don't she'll then think ,I think she's put weight on and is getting fat.

Right got it, 3.25 seconds, no lower body contact , and 2 cheek kisses,3 is just too european.Think that should do nicely. But oh no,what about the kisses,air kiss will never do,way too Hollywood,can't linger too long though as wife and husband will start to get suspicious,so maybe no kisses, but then what if they all think that's a double bluff, to put them off the scent.
Oh sod it,no hugs or kisses, I'm off to get another beer !!!!

[Mandy21]

You made me laugh too, Fiona.  THAT is exactly what they do, I swear to you.  After that conversation with those guys, I would ask every new guy friend I meet, and they would all concur.  ASK your husband, and tell him to be honest.  I don't know ANY girls/women that do this, but men seem to think a hug is one of the most important analytical events in history.  It's ridiculous!

Just pay attention from now on.  You'll find it fascinating.

[optom3]

You made me laugh too, Fiona.  THAT is exactly what they do, I swear to you.  After that conversation with those guys, I would ask every new guy friend I meet, and they would all concur.  ASK your husband, and tell him to be honest.  I don't know ANY girls/women that do this, but men seem to think a hug is one of the most important analytical events in history.  It's ridiculous!

Just pay attention from now on.  You'll find it fascinating.

Patience not being my middle name,I have just got off the phone with my husband.I am still laughing.There are whole sub sections too, such as it becomes  even more complicated if the woman is very attractive, or the reverse.
Also did you know that they look at their partner,
 to see if their hug is going on too long and also if there is any sign of arousal in either party !!!!

I am never going to be able to hug anyone in the presence of my husband again or watch him,as I am just going to double up laughing. Which I suspect the involved parties might find rather offensive.!!
I just can't stop giggling now,I keep thinking I have got myself under contol when another chuckle bursts forth.

The absoloute worst situation of all though is, when in younger years, the mother of your partner is quite attractive.Here I am ,worried as the 20 year old son of one of our friends is really attractive and my husband is worrying about hugging the mother.Too funny. I am so glad I am a female.Now I have to stop as I have completely derailed the topic and I am going to get a smack soon.!!!