Author Topic: My sexual orientation and my positions on gay rights  (Read 151928 times)

Offline letxa2000

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Re: My sexual orientation and my positions on gay rights
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2008, 12:04:48 am »
Now whose argument isn't sound?  You are saying that equal rights for ALL citizens is the same as not voting for ONE candidate?

You lost me.  I'm simply confused as to how you conclude that I'm prejudiced.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: My sexual orientation and my positions on gay rights
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2008, 12:06:10 am »
Again, it's the height of arrogance to think that you'll automatically get what you want just because you want it really bad. 

Well, the groups that want to keep the word and concept of marriage all to themselves seem to be practicing just this idea.  They want to keep marriage between a man and a woman "just because they want it [to stay that way] really bad."  I still don't see why this should be the case.

It's not arrogance to hope and work towards the goal of being recognized as equal within society.  Which, at its core is what the gay marriage issue is about. It's about the idea that gay and lesbian couples are just as important to society and within society as straight couples.




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Re: My sexual orientation and my positions on gay rights
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2008, 12:09:22 am »
My positions are:

Marriage is the union between a man and a woman. This is the traditional and historical understanding of what marriage represents, both religiously and in a civic sense. There should be no pressure or expectation to change this time-honored institution, and no explanation beyond that should be necessary.

Civil unions are acceptable only at the federal level. I do not believe individual states should pass laws that institute the concept of civil unions, but I think it would be reasonable for the federal government to do so with a constitutional amendment--as long as that amendment also specifically states that marriage is only to be between a man and a woman.

Thanks to the Clinton administration, a bill was passed in congress (85-14, with a majority of the democrates voting for) defining marriage as between a man and a women. A majority of the people through their representatives have spoken. Done.

Do I believe in gay rights? I believe everyone should have the same rights. It's called equality. In most states, when an obviously gay man is walking down the street, is approached by a thug who smacks him in the face while calling him a "fag", that crime is deemed 'bias motivated' and is charged as a felony or has more serious consequences than a random assault on a person for no reason. If my grandpa is walking down the street, the same thug approaches and smacks him in the face, calls him an old geezer, it's simple assault. In this example, the penalty is stiffer (in prison sentence, etc) if the victim is gay than if he is my 90 year old grandfather. That, my friends, is not gay rights. That is special rights for the gay man, and I, as a gay man, don't think that is fair or a guarantee of equal rights.

In this country, marriage means something different than it does in most other countries. It is a tradition, and like I stated, has been sanctioned by the federal government in 1996, spearheaded by Pres. Clinton (same administration who gave us 'don't ask, don't tell'). I have been in a domestic partnership with the same man for 20 years. He is entitled to my pension if I die before he does. The city passed this legislation which entitles same-sex domestic partners this benefit. He is covered by my insurance as a same-sex partner. At this point, the only thing we don't have is the federal tax exemption based on married verses single. For me, that isn't a big deal. I don't care about saying "I'm married". Someone asks, I tell them I'm not married but I have a domestic partner.

Same-sex couples who seek recognition under the veil of 'marriage' is a very small minority. At this point, a very large majority (especially in Congress) wanna keep 'marriage' as between a man and woman. This country is based on majority. Having said this, I believe we don't have equal rights, and while some local jurisdictions (or states) see to it that we are treated as close to equal as our male/female counterparts, there does need to be bill passed in the senate that allows us the same protection/rights as hetro's. I don't demand marriage. For me it's not about recognition. It's about rights. There is a defining line between the demand to be legitimized and the demand for equal treatment.

Brad


Offline letxa2000

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Re: My sexual orientation and my positions on gay rights
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2008, 12:13:15 am »
Now we're on to something...


Quote
It's not arrogance to hope and work towards the goal of being recognized as equal within society.

Then forget it.  Achieving "gay marriage" won't mean you are recognized as equal.  There will still be homophobes (or whatever they're called) that will look down on you.  And added to that you'll even probably generate more resentment from people that would have been willing to accept civil unions but take offense at gay marriage.

Get over the inferiority complex you apparently have.  If your concern is really about rights, take the civil unions and have your rights.  But if this is about you feeling like society recognizes you as just as important or whatever, you're not going to achieve that by bitching and moaning all the way to the Supreme Court trying to change the definition of marriage which might make you feel good but will make others feel pretty ticked off.  That's really not going to increase your stature in society.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: My sexual orientation and my positions on gay rights
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2008, 12:13:36 am »
You lost me.  I'm simply confused as to how you conclude that I'm prejudiced.


You said:
Quote
How do you figure that I have prejudices?  Believe it or not, the fact that I don't agree with gay marriage doesn't mean I have prejudices against gays.  That is similar to calling me racist just because I won't vote for Obama, and I won't have it.

I wouldn't call anyone a racist based on knowing they wouldn't vote for one particular candidate, Obama.  I wouldn't call somebody prejudiced based on knowing they didn't want one particular gay couple to get married.  I WOULD see prejudice if I then found out it wasn't just that one gay couple, but ALL gay couples they didn't want to allow to get married.




Offline Ellemeno

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Re: My sexual orientation and my positions on gay rights
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2008, 12:14:36 am »
You've got a lively little thread going here, Wayne.

:)



Offline David In Indy

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Re: My sexual orientation and my positions on gay rights
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2008, 01:10:11 am »
I take offense at what I consider to be extreme arrogance of those in the gay community that presume to tell society that we must change our traditional definition and understanding of a traditional institution such as marriage just because they've decided to become vocal.  From an issue of rights in our country I understand the arguments and it's why I'm willing to go with the idea of civil unions which would extend all the same rights as are granted to married couples.  But just as I can acknowledge the arguments that gays want the same rights as married couples and I might need to bend my own beliefs to accept that my government will recognize these relationships when I might not agree that it should, gays should understand that that is a big concession in and of itself for a lot of people and that, perhaps, gays need to acknowledge a traditional definition of marriage.

This mostly needs to be a matter of give and take by both sides.  Again, it's the height of arrogance to think that you'll automatically get what you want just because you want it really bad.  I think traditional conservatives can give a little by agreeing to the concept of civil unions and gays can give a little by agreeing to let conservatives "keep" their definition of marriage.

And change for change's sake doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to me either.

What do you mean by "we"? Who is "we"? Who is "society"? The last time I checked I was a member of society too.

By the way I'm a proud gay man. ;)

And we're being "arrogant" simply because we're asking to be recognized and treated equally? That's rich.  :(

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Offline Berit

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Re: My sexual orientation and my positions on gay rights
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2008, 05:13:27 am »

I don't want to intentionally offend anyone.  I want what my parents have.  They have been married for over 40 years, and my mother has said to me, "I want to dance at your WEDDING, not your 'civil union'."

I want to know how my wedding would affect straight weddings/couples.

I also want to dance at your wedding  :laugh: :laugh: if you just invite me I'll be there.....

I am a straight woman who think's that equality includes the right to marry, regardless of gender. My marriage wows won't be less worth if same sexed couples also have the right to marry.

Society changes, has always done so and will always do so. Thank God for that.

So just post the invitation, I'll be there...... 8) ;D :laugh: :-*.....with gift, nice speech, champagne and the lot

Berit
Ennis.....always Ennis.....

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: My sexual orientation and my positions on gay rights
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2008, 06:47:20 am »


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: My sexual orientation and my positions on gay rights
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2008, 08:18:19 am »
Good lord, this thread has grown like wildfire.

I am a gay man, I am in favor of equal rights for all people. Women and gays should not be descriminated against in any way. I am in favor of gay marriage, full marriage, I do not accept domestic partnership.
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