Author Topic: My long, rambling defense of Brokeback Mountain  (Read 14618 times)

Offline starboardlight

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Re: My long, rambling defense of Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2006, 12:12:20 pm »
But of course it is really hard to convey that effect that to people who simply didn't feel it themselves. I doubt anyone here noticed half of the symbolism and stuff the first time they saw it, but I'd venture that everyone here was profoundly emotionally affected on that very first viewing. And I really don't understand what distinguishes us from the people who are lukewarm about the movie -- most of those people don't seem unusually insensitive otherwise (assuming they're nonhomophobes, of course).

yeah, it is really difficult to convey that emotional impact of the film. i still haven't been able to figure out how to talk about it either. all i can do is give anecdotal stories that others posted about their own experiences. in a way, those are the stories that move me. i think of thebee's post, and how it made my cry with hope. i also think of several posts of people who started out trolling and came back to apologize after having seen the film. there was one in particular who didn't like the film at first viewing, but many of us challenged him to see it again. sure enough he came back and said that after the second time around, he's now convinced that it was one of the best films of the year. I wonder if you might challenge those three to see the film again and see if they still have the same opinions, if they might not catch more details and nuance of the film, and if they might not find that emotional connection.

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Offline opinionista

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Re: My long, rambling defense of Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2006, 12:26:07 pm »
yeah, it is really difficult to convey that emotional impact of the film. i still haven't been able to figure out how to talk about it either. all i can do is give anecdotal stories that others posted about their own experiences. in a way, those are the stories that move me. i think of thebee's post, and how it made my cry with hope. i also think of several posts of people who started out trolling and came back to apologize after having seen the film. there was one in particular who didn't like the film at first viewing, but many of us challenged him to see it again. sure enough he came back and said that after the second time around, he's now convinced that it was one of the best films of the year. I wonder if you might challenge those three to see the film again and see if they still have the same opinions, if they might not catch more details and nuance of the film, and if they might not find that emotional connection.



For what is worth, everytime I try to explain Brokeback Mountain to a friend who hasn't seen it I always describe it as a heartbreaking love story that, among other things, conveys the harm people receive when they're not free to be who they are or to express what they truly feel. That's movie is so well done that anyone can find him/herself represented even if they don't share the characters' sexual orientation. I also tell them that obstacle between the lovers it's not just society but the fear, the insecurities and the perception they have of themselves, their lives, and the relationship they're in. Because the truth is that Ennis and Jack are doomed not because they're gay but because they feel forced to pretend not to be, especially Ennis.

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Offline nakymaton

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Re: My long, rambling defense of Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2006, 12:40:07 pm »
I have such a hard time defending this movie to anybody. (Though I think most of my on-line friends know I'm rabid about it, and therefore back away quietly, hoping to escape before I really get going.) I did convince one friend (straight male) to watch it, after the Oscars when I was so angry about the members of AMPAS who refused to even watch it. I didn't really try to explain why it was so moving to me, though -- and I think it wasn't the quality of my arguments, but the intensity of my passion (and my comparison of Ennis with another character we both liked) that convinced him. (He thought it was all right, but not great. Liked the cinematography, hated the score, didn't see the tragedy as all that powerful.   :o ???  ::)  What could I say?)

And tell you what -- as much as I love talking about the details, as much as they fascinate me... I wouldn't care about them if Ennis and Jack didn't break my heart in the first place.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: My long, rambling defense of Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2006, 01:19:39 pm »
I can't say that I view or interpret some of the often quoted views the same, even (please don't throw me off the board for this) - the  clothing. 

Should I run now...???

That does it, Silk, as moderator of this board I am officially banishing you. Get out!  ;)  :laugh:

No, I guess I promised when I became moderator not to let all that power go to my head.   ;)  So instead I'll just have to say, oh well, to each his own. I think we disagreed about the clothing thing before, and maybe some of the other details. You're right that Jack's jackets are heavier and warmer, as befits his higher income, but re layers I was thinking of how, in key scenes on Brokeback, Jack is often one layer ahead of Ennis -- he takes off his jacket in the first tent scene and his shirt in the second. In the reunion scene, Ennis is wearing fewer layers, but that's the exception that proves the rule: in that scene Ennis leads the way to intimacy.

As for colors, there are only few exceptions to Ennis' code of always wearing blue when he misses Jack and wearing something more predominantly tan when he's with Jack and feeling skittish (sometimes a plaid, but one that's more tan than blue). Again, it's not absolute but it seems too recurrent to be accidental.

Luckily, I stopped short in the email of outlining my theories about Jack's subdued shirt colors after the divorce scene and Ennis' gray jacket in the last few scenes!

And if you think some of the other tiny details might seem doubtful to someone who's not a Brokeback devotee, imagine if I'd included -- as I was tempted to do -- the idea of the cherry cake representing yin/yang symbols!  :laugh:

yeah, it is really difficult to convey that emotional impact of the film. i still haven't been able to figure out how to talk about it either. all i can do is give anecdotal stories that others posted about their own experiences. in a way, those are the stories that move me. ... I wonder if you might challenge those three to see the film again and see if they still have the same opinions, if they might not catch more details and nuance of the film, and if they might not find that emotional connection.

But even with those powerful anecdotes I'm afraid that, while we find them moving, people who don't "get it" may just dismiss them as nutty, or at best just assume those people must have some specific personal reason to connect with the film. (Not to minimize its importance for people who do have a specific personal reason, only making the point that you can be deeply affected even if you don't.)

I like your idea of challenging them to a second viewing, though. If the email exchange continues, I'll give that a shot, and also try to broach the emotional thing somehow.

Now I'm wishing I had gotten feedback from you guys before I hit "send," because your suggestions would have been helpful. Oh well. Next time.

Mel and Natali, your posts jcame in as I was writing this. I agree, if I were talking to someone who'd never seen the movie, or who refused to see it, I would emphasize the heartbreaking love story aspect, too. But all three people I was talking to have seen it, so they already know whether they are moved by the story or not. And as I said, I have never met two of them, though from what I gather they seem reasonably open-minded and sophisticated movie goers. But their biggest complaint about the movie seemed to be that "nothing happens," so I tried to convey that actually a lot happens, but much of it subtle or beneath the surface.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 01:30:57 pm by latjoreme »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: My long, rambling defense of Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2006, 01:30:12 pm »
In case anyone's interested, here is the some discussion from the original email I replied to. Three people are talking (I'm not one of them -- my only contribution so far is what's in the other post.) I put different speakers into different colors, though frankly I had a little trouble following it myself, so I was sort of guessing from context at times.

>JL and I were arguing a bit on the phone the other night about whether Brokeback Mountain is a
>groundbreaking movie.


It's groundbreaking in that it got so much respect and recognition even though it's about a topic people still for some reason get all fidgety about. Ah, intolerance. Where would groundbreaking movies be without it?

>He thought it wasn't, because he could list other movies about gay people. But those movies weren't both critical and commercial successes and didn't receive Oscar nominations. This is the first movie with a gay theme that has stood alongside all the other movies as something other than an "alternative film."


Yes. And in that respect it's groundbreaking. As for story and overall quality. Far from groundbreaking.


>That's the heartbreak of the story. They never got to be together as a real couple, because the prejudice of society kept them in limbo.
>



>Yeah, I get it. It's just... I don't know. Just because it's meandering doesn't mean it has to be boring, and I thought this was a little boring.


Well, I suppose. But it was pretty, too. The cinematography. The landscapes. The unblemished butts of the two hunks.
Besides, I didn't think it was boring. But that's a matter of taste, I think.

>Nah, I get it. I mean, I think it's like that with movies: you either like it or you don't.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 01:35:46 pm by latjoreme »

Offline starboardlight

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Re: My long, rambling defense of Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2006, 01:38:55 pm »
we've had several discussion about why some people connect with the film. The "nothing happened" critique is really telling. To me their are people who need things to be spelled out and people who inherently understand that there's more beneath, around, above what actually happens. As we've all said, this is a movie about what didn't happen and what wasn't said. So "nothing happened" is right, but that's the tragedy of it. We're able to see what was on screen and instinctively see what could have/should have been. Nothing is spelled out, but we somehow were moved to look further into the context and subtext. That's another beauty of the film. It doesn't hit us over the head with a message, but rather invites us to find the deeper meaning on our own. That's what make its such a personal experience for each of us.

I sometimes feel sorry for people who can't connect with the film. From personal experience, they're always people who need things to be black and white, and everything spelled out. If a message doesn't hit them over the head like a ton of bricks, they don't get it. There are exceptions and my statement is a generalization, of course, but like I said "nothing happened" is a very telling critique of people not being able to see beneath the surface.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 01:41:59 pm by starboardlight »
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Offline JennyC

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Re: My long, rambling defense of Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2006, 01:50:03 pm »
Hi JennyC:

I would really like to read your very long e-mail explaining BBM, would you post it here, or e-mail it to me?  I myself have been planning to write myself a definite analysis of BBM but I have been too busy reading at Bettermost to get very far with it.  If I ever do write my dissertation I will post it here.

That's too much pressure, Jake Twist. ;D  Just kidding.

Seriously I wrote the e-mail back in January, before I got really involved with this community.  I have learned a lot of things about the movie, the story since then.  I need to do some seriously proof reading before I dare to post it here  :P.

The main issue that my friend got hang up on is the infidelity issue, because of her personal experience.   

Offline ednbarby

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Re: My long, rambling defense of Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2006, 01:58:41 pm »
Oh, my GOD, Amanda.  This just damn near slayed me:

Quote
Ennis's final words of "Jack, I swear" echo those of Aeneas when confronted with the 'shade' or ghost of his beloved Dido who committed suicide after he abandoned her. Aeneas says to Dido's ghost, "I swear by every oath that hell can muster, I swear I left you against my will. The law of God--the law that sends me now through darkness, bramble, rot and profound night--unyielding drove me; nor could I have dreamed that in my leaving I would hurt you so."

Makes me wonder if A. Proulx isn't more than a tad familiar with Virgil.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: My long, rambling defense of Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2006, 02:06:31 pm »
I sometimes feel sorry for people who can't connect with the film. From personal experience, they're always people who need things to be black and white, and everything spelled out. If a message doesn't hit them over the head like a ton of bricks, they don't get it. There are exceptions and my statement is a generalization, of course, but like I said "nothing happened" is a very telling critique of people not being able to see beneath the surface.

Absolutely. Once you get past homophobia, I think this is the most common reason for people not connecting with the movie. Viewers are just so used to getting their movie messages ladled out in the form of explosions, bullet-dodging and, um, absurdly coincidental car crashes.

Makes me wonder if A. Proulx isn't more than a tad familiar with Virgil.

That's for sure. Just the Ennis/Aeneas thing is enough to convince me.

Offline silkncense

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Re: My long, rambling defense of Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2006, 06:33:02 pm »
Quote
I wonder if you might challenge those three to see the film again and see if they still have the same opinions, if they might not catch more details and nuance of the film, and if they might not find that emotional connection.

I agree.  After my first viewing I had the three nights of sleep loss & knew I had to see it again (didn't know then it would be 16 viewings in the theater). 

A 20 something newlywed male @ my work saw Brokeback based on my praise.  He came back & said it was "a lust affair" & was about infidelity.  I pointed out some of the subtle scenes that show it was love, etc.  That was in April.  Ironically, last week (he had just seen Crash & we were discussing that) & he said he thought he needed to watch Brokeback again as he may have missed some of the details.  Here's hoping he really sees it this time. 

Katherine - Actually we usually agree, almost completely.  Now if you'll only acknowledge that I'm right about the shirt colors... ;)
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