"Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"

[whiteoutofthemoon]

Alrighty then, here's one for the beautiful ladies here (or any smart men):

If girls don't fall in love with fun, then what do they fall for then?   That is, what exactly did Cassie see in Ennis?   We're well aware of what Jack saw in Ennis, and I can even see what Alma saw in him (at that time, he was probably her first love, it was probably expected that all girls got married and had children, etc.), but later on in life, Ennis wasn't exactly a "catch" for a hottie like Cassie....he was poor, not a great conversationalist overall, inattentive, had baggage (two kids).  We know he's a decent guy and a loyal friend, but from purely Cassie's perspective, what is it that she fell for?   that's one part that I didn't totally understand, and certainly Cassie was added by the screenwriters, as she was not part of Annie Proulx's story.   I knew she liked him, but I couldn't see why she fell in love with him.  And this is one hot, young chick who could've gotten any cowboy.   

On the other hand, I can understand why the writers added her character, as if to show that Ennis was somewhat "damaged" to love anyone else.....  that scene in the diner tells it all....  he was all alone, eating this small piece of pie....a shell of a man, confused, emotionally drained, couldn't love, or be loved. 

So ladies, would you have fallen for Ennis?  and why, or why not?

(me....just a single straight guy, alone on a Friday nite, b/c of a fight today with my girlfriend....and I still don't understand women!  And hence this thread...  <sigh>).

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

Well, I hope you and your girlfriend work things out.

See, I could answer your question but I have no idea so... yeah...

Cassie's presence was a bit of a mystery to me at first. But I agree that she shows how emotionally destroyed Ennis is in that he can love Jack and Jack only.

[opinionista]

Alrighty then, here's one for the beautiful ladies here (or any smart men):

If girls don't fall in love with fun, then what do they fall for then?   That is, what exactly did Cassie see in Ennis?   We're well aware of what Jack saw in Ennis, and I can even see what Alma saw in him (at that time, he was probably her first love, it was probably expected that all girls got married and had children, etc.), but later on in life, Ennis wasn't exactly a "catch" for a hottie like Cassie....he was poor, not a great conversationalist overall, inattentive, had baggage (two kids).  We know he's a decent guy and a loyal friend, but from purely Cassie's perspective, what is it that she fell for?   that's one part that I didn't totally understand, and certainly Cassie was added by the screenwriters, as she was not part of Annie Proulx's story.   I knew she liked him, but I couldn't see why she fell in love with him.  And this is one hot, young chick who could've gotten any cowboy.   

On the other hand, I can understand why the writers added her character, as if to show that Ennis was somewhat "damaged" to love anyone else.....  that scene in the diner tells it all....  he was all alone, eating this small piece of pie....a shell of a man, confused, emotionally drained, couldn't love, or be loved. 

So ladies, would you have fallen for Ennis?  and why, or why not?

(me....just a single straight guy, alone on a Friday nite, b/c of a fight today with my girlfriend....and I still don't understand women!  And hence this thread...  <sigh>).

Well, Cassie is actually in the short story, just that Proulx didn't give her a name. But Ennis does mention her, when he tells Jack that he's been putting the blocks to some waiter who worked at a bar in Signal. I think the reason for her existence is to show that Ennis's fears towards his own sexuality just grew bigger with time. He wasn't coming in terms with is sexuality at all, as opposed to Jack who at least acknowledged that he was in love with a man.

Anyway, Diana Ossana said in an interview that the very first draft of the screenplay was exactly like the short story, but it wasn't long enough to make it a movie. So, she and Larry McMurtry had to expand it, adding situations and characters that were either mentioned briefly, like Cassie, or that weren't there at all, like Jimbo.

PS.The interview is in the DVD extras.

[serious crayons]

From some perspectives  Ennis is every bit as hot as Cassie. Socioeconomically, he's not a step down for a cocktail waitress. It's true he's not talkative, but a lot of women don't question that. He's a little older than she is, but not way out of range. Baggage, yeah, but a lot of women are OK with that, too. Someone pointed out on another thread that Cassie might have been drawn to Ennis because he was polite and wouldn't have harassed her like a lot of guys in the bar might. He's quite pleasant, in fact. So I would guess that as Cassie looked around the bar, she wasn't seeing many cowboys who, on the surface anyway, looked more appealing. Look who she turned to on the rebound: Karl, about whom she rolls her eyes and the best she can say is that he's nice and talks!

Eventually, she might have become frustrated by Ennis' lack of passion, in both a physical and emotional sense. But I think at that point their relationship was new enough that frustration hadn't set in, and she probably hoped the potential still existed.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Surely the "Carl, he even talks" line was more a slap at Ennis and his taciturnity than a comment about Carl? At least, that's how I've always seen the line. Poor Cassie must have needed a grappling hook to pull conversation out of Ennis.

[welliwont]

Eventually, she might have become frustrated by Ennis' lack of passion, in both a physical and emotional sense. But I think at that point their relationship was new enough that frustration hadn't set in, and she probably hoped the potential still existed.

Hi Katherine:

"their relationship was new enough"?  Please correct me if I am wrong, but I calculate their relationship as being for five years by 1983.  Based on the linear progression:  Cassie hits on Ennis the scene immediately prior to the Benefit Dance where Jack meets Randall, and the banner at the Benefit Dance says 1978.

This is the reason I came down so hard on Ennis in my two postings earlier tonight on another thread, http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2163.0.

.... Ennis stopped seeing Cassie after their last fishing trip supports your hypothesis.  I do however have a problem with the way that was done.  According to the timeline, Ennis began to see Cassie in 1978, and stopped seeing her in 1983.  Five years, damn!  For a woman to be dumped so unceremoniously after being in a relationship for five f---n' years just boggles the mind.  Cassie says she left messages and notes, and then moved on to Carl.  Sheesh, after five years, I think a face-to-face encounter with Ennis would be absolutely necessary to Cassie.  How could she just accept this silent brush-off after five f'n years??


PS:  I like BBM as much as the next Brokie, but if I take two steps back and process the narcissistic way Ennis treated Cassie, that makes Ennis a Bad Person.  My mantra, courtesy of Ann Landers is “The true measure of a human is how he or she treats his fellow man.  Integrity and compassion cannot be learned in college, nor are these qualities inherited in the genes.”

Sorry to all the Heathens!  *ducks into the tent just before the barrage*

Sorry Katherine, I know you are a Heathen!

and To Jeff:  sometimes women choose men that are not good for them, this is the condensed theory, but some women are unconciously drawn to men that are similar to their father's personality.  If Cassie's father had been emotionally distant and unavailable to her or to her mother, that is what Cassie models for her own choice of a mate.  I know that is what I did, I chose someone emtionallly distant, just like my own father was.

[whiteoutofthemoon]

"PS:  I like BBM as much as the next Brokie, but if I take two steps back and process the narcissistic way Ennis treated Cassie, that makes Ennis a Bad Person.  My mantra, courtesy of Ann Landers is “The true measure of a human is how he or she treats his fellow man.  Integrity and compassion cannot be learned in college, nor are these qualities inherited in the genes.”


Ennis is a gentleman, decent and noble to the core, and that's why it was such an internal struggle for him to have feelings for Jack, not only because he didn't understand it and had fears, but also because he had committments to Alma, and especially his children.   It may look like he was "leading on" CASSIE (corrected), and perhaps the way he blew her off was cold, but that again is part of the tragedy....in that diner scene, you can hear in his voice that he was just empty, and as much as he may have wanted to do the right thing in regards to Cassie, he had lost the emotional capability to do so. 

[serious crayons]

"PS:  I like BBM as much as the next Brokie, but if I take two steps back and process the narcissistic way Ennis treated Cassie, that makes Ennis a Bad Person.  My mantra, courtesy of Ann Landers is “The true measure of a human is how he or she treats his fellow man.  Integrity and compassion cannot be learned in college, nor are these qualities inherited in the genes.”


Ennis is a gentleman, decent and noble to the core, and that's why it was such an internal struggle for him to have feelings for Jack, not only because he didn't understand it and had fears, but also because he had committments to Alma, and especially his children.   It may look like he was "leading on" Alma, and perhaps the way he blew her off was cold, but that again is part of the tragedy....in that diner scene, you can hear in his voice that he was just empty, and as much as he may have wanted to do the right thing in regards to Cassie, he had lost the emotional capability to do so. 

Whiteoutofthemoon, I agree with you.

On the other hand, JakeTwist, I totally disagree with Ann Landers, but I should probably save that for the Ann Landers message board. (Briefly, though, I think those qualities most certainly can be inherited in the genes, and probably even learned in college -- at college age, anyway, if not in an actual classroom.)

I think Ennis was probably fine to Cassie, aside from leading her on out of some mixture of passivity and his own fears -- at least until the end, when he broke up with her in an unquestionably cruel way. Also, the actual decision to break up with her -- if not the method -- may have been motivated at least partly by kindness. But when I said politeness, etc., were among his attractive qualities, I was referring more to his manner at the very beginning, when she was still serving him beers and decided to hit on him.

And Jake, you are much more observant than I am. I guess I never noticed the banner and calculated the years. I always just figured both the Cassie and Randall relationships hadn't been going on long before Ennis and Jack talked about them. I guess I might have thought Ennis, especially, would have mentioned the good-looking little gal he was putting the blocks to earlier. (With Jack, I guess it would make sense he'd been seeing Randall for a while before he obliquely confessed to Ennis. But he'd only mentioned Randall to his dad that spring.)

And Jeff, I agree that Cassie's Carl line was partly a slap at Ennis, but as she said it while rolling her eyes and making a face and immediately after, "Who, Carl?!?"  it was also meant to indicate how little he (Carl) interested her.

Sorry Katherine, I know you are a Heathen!

What, have I mentioned this before?! 

[welliwont]

I guess I never noticed the banner and calculated the years. I always just figured both the Cassie and Randall relationships hadn't been going on long before Ennis and Jack talked about them. I guess I might have thought Ennis, especially, would have mentioned the good-looking little gal he was putting the blocks to earlier. (With Jack, I guess it would make sense he'd been seeing Randall for a while before he obliquely confessed to Ennis. But he'd only mentioned Randall to his dad that spring.)

Yeah, me too.  I'm not so sure that it's not a continuity error or something....   I was totally surprised when I calculated that it was five years!  It did not "feel" like five years in the way that Cassie accepted the lackadaisacal flavor of their relationship, I mean to stick around for that long in such a seemingly casual relationship, and to have moved on to Carl with no real closure from Ennis, y'know what I'm trying to say?  (It's late!)

And yes you are right, you'd think that Ennis might have mentioned Cassie to Jack if he'd been seeing her for five years!  I mean, surely they must have talked a bit to each other on their get-aways?!!

If Ang had put the scene of Cassie picking up Ennis after the 1978 scene of Jack meeting Randall at the Charity Benefit, then it might have been way less than five years that Cassie was seeing Ennis, and that would have felt more realistic.

[serious crayons]

The more I think of it and, having looked at the screenplay (for the first time!), the more the whole date thing toward the end is odd.

According to the screenplay, the charity dance takes place in 1978, as the sign indicates. And when Ennis and Cassie pick Alma Jr. up for a date, she appears younger than she does at the end. Which makes Ennis belated revelation about Cassie odd, for the reasons we mentioned, under any circumstances.

But also, in the screenplay the big lakeside argument is in 1981. As is the pie-eating scene. But the scene where Ennis gets the DECEASED postcard is said to happen in 1982. How would that work? Didn't the argument occur early in the year that Ennis said he couldn't meet until November -- and then didn't Ennis' message on the fatal postcard confirm that November meeting? Or if not, does this imply there were other meetings between the big argument and Jack's death?! This doesn't seem realistic.

Sorry, but unless I'm figuring wrong, this seems like a mistake. Feel free to correct me if necessary.

The last scene, with Alma Jr., is said to occur in 1984. Hunh?! It doesn't seem that much later than the previous action. I guess this is more arguable, but Ennis' grief seems really fresh.