"Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"

[nic]

....snip...So ladies, would you have fallen for Ennis?  and why, or why not?

The date thing is confusing me now too! But I have a response to the main question, & that is that I would definitely have fallen for Ennis, bigtime.  Not just because of his looks but because I would have been able to tell that there was something going on under his exterior.  Especially, if like Cassie, I had been able to observe him for some time.  I have always fallen for people who have some major personal stuff going on with them - it draws me like a moth to a flame & sometimes gets in the way of if the relationship itself.  I am desperate to find out what they are like underneath & what it is they are hiding.  Ennis is a classic case. 

I think this comes from the fact I am also Ennis-like in that I have an outer shell & some damaged goods underneath too, so want the reassurance & the recognition that even if you have been damaged, you are worth something & someone can/will love you etc  It's also a bit of a mothering/good samaritan thing too I think, wanting to help the other person overcome their inner demons.  Someitmes I think that damaged people subconscioulsy send out signals that can be picked up by this caring type of person so that they can come together. Ennis certainly wasn't looking for another relationship, although at the time he must have welcomed it in a way, as a "beard" and also to see if he could "play it straight".

I have had one relationship with a person holding themselves back where it didn't work, where I couldn't get through to them & I felt locked out.  To this day, I feel selfishly frustrated that I couldn't "break" them (my "skills" were lacking or they didn't trust me enough) but also worried for them in case they never found anyone that could get through to them.  For Ennis, Jack was the only one he could be free with.  They didn't talk a lot but seemed to have some understanding of the other's hurts.   Alma Jnr was close to Ennis because of the unconditional love between a parent and child (not so much Francine/Jenny because Alma Snr seemed to take her over). 

Sorry to have gone round the house with that answer! I totally see this coloured from my own experience & the answer wasn't simple.  There is also some further discussion here about the attraction of Ennis's internal strength & in the reply

 http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1953.msg37027#msg37027

[serious crayons]

I would definitely have fallen for Ennis, bigtime.  Not just because of his looks but because I would have been able to tell that there was something going on under his exterior.

I agree with everything you wrote, Nic. And not only would I have, I did! 

[whiteoutofthemoon]

The date thing is confusing me now too! But I have a response to the main question, & that is that I would definitely have fallen for Ennis, bigtime.  Not just because of his looks but because I would have been able to tell that there was something going on under his exterior.  Especially, if like Cassie, I had been able to observe him for some time.  I have always fallen for people who have some major personal stuff going on with them - it draws me like a moth to a flame & sometimes gets in the way of if the relationship itself.  I am desperate to find out what they are like underneath & what it is they are hiding.  Ennis is a classic case. 

I think this comes from the fact I am also Ennis-like in that I have an outer shell & some damaged goods underneath too, so want the reassurance & the recognition that even if you have been damaged, you are worth something & someone can/will love you etc  It's also a bit of a mothering/good samaritan thing too I think, wanting to help the other person overcome their inner demons.  Someitmes I think that damaged people subconscioulsy send out signals that can be picked up by this caring type of person so that they can come together. Ennis certainly wasn't looking for another relationship, although at the time he must have welcomed it in a way, as a "beard" and also to see if he could "play it straight".

I have had one relationship with a person holding themselves back where it didn't work, where I couldn't get through to them & I felt locked out.  To this day, I feel selfishly frustrated that I couldn't "break" them (my "skills" were lacking or they didn't trust me enough) but also worried for them in case they never found anyone that could get through to them.  For Ennis, Jack was the only one he could be free with.  They didn't talk a lot but seemed to have some understanding of the other's hurts.   Alma Jnr was close to Ennis because of the unconditional love between a parent and child (not so much Francine/Jenny because Alma Snr seemed to take her over). 

Sorry to have gone round the house with that answer! I totally see this coloured from my own experience & the answer wasn't simple.  There is also some further discussion here about the attraction of Ennis's internal strength & in the reply

 http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1953.msg37027#msg37027

Thanks nic, that was the type of response I was looking for...... I guess I wanted a better understanding of 'what women want'...of course, that topic in itself could fill a whole library, but I can see that women, probably more so than men, have that nurturing tendency inbred in you, and that you might be attracted to that tough exterior, but inner turmoil.......if it was easy, then it wouldn't be worth it to conquer that, and that perhaps you can be the only one to help that tortured soul.   It would have to be presumed that the subject of marriage came up in Cassie's and Ennis's long courtship, as he was comfortable enough to have her meet his daughter, and surely she was dropping hints, but probably got nowhere, so she had to resort to snooping around with Alma Jr, trying perhaps when she asks if Ennis is ready to settle down again, I sense that she is really asking "so...what does he say about me?". 

I've always wondered too....there a lot of "good men" out there who can't seem to match up with a good woman, and yet you turn on Jerry Springer and see these fat ugly unemployed old guys with strange fetishes who have SEVERAL women fighting to the death for them.....  maybe not an exact analogy to Ennis, but I guess attraction is in the eye of the beholder!

[welliwont]

Hi Katherine, nic, whiteoutofthemoon:

In a nutshell, the dates in the Screenplay are wrrroonng!  Over at my previous abode, there was an very extensive thread discussing tie timelines the discrepancies, etc. and a couple of people reconciled the dates as best they could.  I will mayvbe be able to put my fingers on it, if I do I will post the link.  It is really really long so if there is no longer a link do you think I should post it here?  (I am a thread-saver, but they do not look as pretty after I have saved them...)

J

[serious crayons]

Then JakeTwist, I guess my next question would be, do the dates in the actual movie make sense? For instance, it's hard to imagine Ennis carrying on a five-year relationship with Cassie, never mentioning it to Jack until it just happens to come up in conversation after five years of silence, yet then telling him about it very nonchallantly, as if it were no big secret or anything. On the other hand, Alma Jr. does seem to age a few years between their date and the last scene.

(Without reading the extremely long thread, I am perfectly willing to accept your conclusion that the screenplay dates are wrong -- I agree totally. If you remember or can excerpt any particularly interesting points, feel free to post!)

[nic]

I'd be interested in knowing what the general consensus was as to what the accepted, corrected timeframe is.  That seems like quite a big mistake for the crew to make.  Another reason for a new DVD!!

[welliwont]

Then JakeTwist, I guess my next question would be, do the dates in the actual movie make sense? For instance, it's hard to imagine Ennis carrying on a five-year relationship with Cassie, never mentioning it to Jack until it just happens to come up in conversation after five years of silence, yet then telling him about it very nonchallantly, as if it were no big secret or anything. On the other hand, Alma Jr. does seem to age a few years between their date and the last scene.

(Without reading the extremely long thread, I am perfectly willing to accept your conclusion that the screenplay dates are wrong -- I agree totally. If you remember or can excerpt any particularly interesting points, feel free to post!)

Well shame on me for taking four days to answer back to you!!!  This remained an unread e-mail in my e-mail for all this time....  well never mind that....  Everything you write above is dead right, I agree 1000% that it is hard to imagine that Ennis mentions Cassie for the first time the night before the big fight scene by the lake which is in the spring of 1983....  but that apparently is the case.

Do the dates in the actual movie make sense?  well....

Is it 1978 when Cassie hits on Ennis?  --  yes, bcz the scene immediately following is the Childress 1978 Charity ball or whatever-you-call-it.  Unless the film plays out in non-chronological order, and I don't think that is the case, that does not make sense.

Is it spring 1983 when Ennis tells Jack about Cassie?  yes, it is the night before the fight scene, unless AL strung together two completely different camping trips, and that does not make sense....  Yes it is 1983 bcz Jack dies at age 39 according to Lureen...

Ergo 5 years.  Now I am no Columbo, but I cannot see a hole in that sequence of conclusions, I cannot find a way to disprove the five years. so apparently Ennis was that cavalier about Cassie, did not deem her worth mentioning to Jack in all that time.  I really wonder what they spoke about / did all those days they spent together on their fishing trips, that Cassie's name did not come up....  Usually what friends talk about is what is going on in their lives....  Ennis did not have a hell of a lot of other stuff going on in his life to talk about.... Only seeing his girls once a month (or was it getting the girls?)  -  when they lived in the same town FGS!!

ok, I think I know what they did most of the time  but I have always thought that their relationship was very very insular and not based in reality, although IMO it would have stood the test and survived if only Ennis would taken the chance....  Yes the aging of Alma jr fits with the 5 years timeline, she looks about 15 when she goes out with Cassie and Ennis...

So even though it does not make sense to me (and maybe not to you either) that Ennis dated Cassie for five years before mentionning it to Jack, that indeed is the case - in the movie.

J

PS  try this, and I'll say it just one time....  the fact that Jack puts the question "In all this time you ain't found anyone else to marry?" to Ennis I find a bit strange as well...  Jack wants to be in Ennis' life 100%.  So why is he entertaining the question that Ennis marry a woman again and make himself unavailable to Jack?  hmmmm,  I never liked that Jack asked that question / brought it up in the first place.  OK I can hear the answer already, Jack was really asking 'cause he wants to make sure Ennis is not getting involved with someone else....  yeah, but still, saying that to Ennis is like opening the door, shouldn't he be saying something like "I sure hope you ain't planning to make the same mistake twice by gettin' married, 'cause I still hold out hope that we can get together and have that sweet life one a these days."

oh, it's so sad... Damn you Ennis!

[serious crayons]

OK then, here's a heretical suggestion: the movie is, well, um, flawed. I hasten to add I mean this only in regard to this time sequence problem!! (Although there was a thread once in which people were asked to suggest other minor, minor flaws in this otherwise perfect movie, and I'll have to admit I did name a couple of tiny ones.)

The screenplay is unquestionably wrong. So maybe all the problems didn't get ironed out in the trip from script to screen. If the banner at the charity dance didn't say 1978, then everything else would fit together pretty well: both Cassie and Randall could have entered the picture at any time, which most logically would have been in the early 80s.

That doesn't explain Alma Jr.'s apparent aging. But maybe, if she's 17 when she accompanies them on their date, and enough time goes by between the lakeside argument and Jack's death and the final scene, she could be 19 by then? It's a stretch (she looks a bit younger than 17 in that earlier scene), but it could work.

At least, it works better for me than the idea that the subject of Cassie never came up in five years. Yes, Ennis is taciturn and not that into Cassie, perhaps even keeps quiet about her to avoid hurting Jack. But his "I've been putting the blocks to ..." just doesn't sound like the blocks have been getting put for five years.

It's also hard to imagine Jack's and Randall's relationship having gone on for five years. Their scene at the charity dance suggests they would get together relatively soon thereafter ... not four f'in years later. Yet when Jack obliquely tells Ennis about Randall, he ALSO sounds like he's describing a pretty recent development, not one that's five years old.

I'm afraid the time sequence doesn't make perfect sense no matter what. But I can best live with it if I rip down that charity-ball banner in my mind.

the fact that Jack puts the question "In all this time you ain't found anyone else to marry?" to Ennis I find a bit strange as well...  Jack wants to be in Ennis' life 100%.  So why is he entertaining the question that Ennis marry a woman again and make himself unavailable to Jack?  hmmmm,  I never liked that Jack asked that question / brought it up in the first place.

That has always disconcerted me, too. At first, I thought maybe they still had to keep up the pretense of heterosexuality (or bisexuality), even with each other -- although they clearly don't feel threatened by outside relationships with women as they would by other men. That theory was supported by Jack's admission of his relationship with the ranch foreman's wife, and Ennis' nonchalant acceptance of it. Others have suggested the idea that Jack is baiting Ennis, or prodding him to admit he needs more companionship or whatever, and that theory makes sense to me, too.

[welliwont]

OK then, here's a heretical suggestion: the movie is, well, um, flawed. I hasten to add I mean this only in regard to this time sequence problem!!

Hi Katherine:  I believe you have hit the nail on the head.  Can this be called some kind of continuity error, so-to-speak?  If the banner was removed from the movie, then we could accept the mentions of Cassie & rancher's 'wife' without any qualms.

(Although there was a thread once in which people were asked to suggest other minor, minor flaws in this otherwise perfect movie, and I'll have to admit I did name a couple of tiny ones.)

I hated that thread!  I was gonna say something, but I deleted my post instead of sending it, and I refuse to read that thread anymore ever.  Sure, I could pick a few things to complain about, but the sum total of everybody's niggling peeves is not a pretty picture and it demeans our beloved movie, IMO.

The screenplay is unquestionably wrong. So maybe all the problems didn't get ironed out in the trip from script to screen.

yes, I think most BBM scholars agree that the screenplay is wrong in at least a couple of  places.

That has always disconcerted me, too. At first, I thought maybe they still had to keep up the pretense of heterosexuality (or bisexuality), even with each other -- although they clearly don't feel threatened by outside relationships with women as they would by other men. That theory was supported by Jack's admission of his relationship with the ranch foreman's wife, and Ennis' nonchalant acceptance of it. Others have suggested the idea that Jack is baiting Ennis, or prodding him to admit he needs more companionship or whatever, and that theory makes sense to me, too.

The first theory, that they don't feel threatened by outside relationships with women, it took me a while to wrap my brain around that.  At first I was like Whoa!  what's going on?  how can they be so nonchalant about this?  I have since accepted others' explanation for it.

But now the second theory, that Jack is baiting Ennis, I have not heard that one before, hmmmm.....

Here is another scene that needs to be dissected:  the last morning, when Jack is standing at his truck door ready to leave, he says to Ennis:  "Well I guess I'll head up to Lightning Flat for a couple of days"  he finishes his sentence, and he gives Ennis such a look, and then he snaps his head down and stares at the ground, almost like he was hoping for a certain response from Ennis that he did not get....  hmmm ...and then he gets punched in the gut! 

they still had to keep up the pretense of heterosexuality (or bisexuality), even with each other

If they were trying to keep up the pretense, then how does that reconcile with a prior camping trip when Ennis asks Jack does her ever get the feeling that people "know"  -- ok now that is yet another line you and I can discuss back and forth Katherine, because to me Ennis' saying that is kind of an admission that there is someting to "know".

Does Ennis think that people "know" that he does things with his best bud Jack?

or

is he thinking that they "know" that he is homosexual? 

If it is the latter, then why does he blow up at Jack during the fight "All them things that I don't know, could get you killed if I should come to know 'em"?  Because that line has been explained to me as:  the reason Enns blows a gasket is bcz if Jack goes to Mexico to visit male prostitutes that makes Jack gay, and if Jack is gay ergo that means Ennis is gay too.

hmmmm

[serious crayons]

If they were trying to keep up the pretense, then how does that reconcile with a prior camping trip when Ennis asks Jack does her ever get the feeling that people "know"  -- ok now that is yet another line you and I can discuss back and forth Katherine, because to me Ennis' saying that is kind of an admission that there is someting to "know".

Does Ennis think that people "know" that he does things with his best bud Jack?

or

is he thinking that they "know" that he is homosexual? 

If it is the latter, then why does he blow up at Jack during the fight "All them things that I don't know, could get you killed if I should come to know 'em"?  Because that line has been explained to me as:  the reason Enns blows a gasket is bcz if Jack goes to Mexico to visit male prostitutes that makes Jack gay, and if Jack is gay ergo that means Ennis is gay too.

Yeah, the "people know" scene -- or more to the point, the question of what Ennis himself "knows" and when he knows it -- seems endlessly debatable. I'm in the camp that favors this interpretation: Ennis pretty much knows, certainly by that point, if not by the first tent scene, if not by the time he's standing outside Aguirre's trailer, if not from the time he's forced to witness Earl. Whether he's fully conscious it is is also unclear, but I choose to think that it's at least clear enough that he gets it, even if he doesn't like to acknowledge it and does his best to suppress it.

As for the Mexico threat, that's a big controversy, too. (I hate to keep referring to old threads, but I started one myself a while back on that very subject. I say that only in case you're interested -- NOT to suggest that, hey, we've already discussed this and resolved the matter for once and for all, so there's nothing left to say about it. Personally, I think it is far from resolved and could discuss it forever. I think it's one of the big interpretation divides Brokies fall into.)

Anyway, my position is that Ennis' threat about Mexico is motivated more by jealousy than homophobia. Nonchalant as he is about Jack with other women, he does NOT like the possibility of Jack with other men. Evidence includes the fact that he doesn't blow up about Mexico the moment Jack mentions it, but only later, after Jack scares Ennis with the hint that their relationship may be ending ("I did, ONCE ..."). Ennis responds by lashing out, just as he did when threatened by the end of their relationship on Brokeback. And later, when Old Man Twist deliberately baits Ennis by mentioning "this other fella," Ennis' subtly hurt expression looks to me like nothing other than jealousy.

But one of the reasons that battle keeps raging is that the arguments on the other side are pretty strong, too. For example, if at least at some level what Ennis took from the Earl experience is that killing is an appropriate response to homosexuality ("the job") then perhaps he's just playing that out, in a way, in his threat to Jack.

Some people think that the big crisis and discovery that Ennis goes through at the end is acknowledging his own homosexuality. Personally, I think it's his realization that he should have honored his relationship with Jack -- not put shame and fear above love -- rather than trying to sweep it under the carpet.