Parents and children

[Katie77]

I am glad I came upon this thread, and I since I did, I have tried to read and absorb the comments, so forgive me if i repeat any of the comments that have all ready been made.

I am the child of a homosexual father, who left my mother, when I was seven, to live with his partner....all this happened in the late 50's.....when divorce was not as prevelent as it is today.

From what I can remember, at aged seven, I did not go thru a lot of trauma, back then, it was to just go with the flow of life....even moving to a different city, didnt disturb me that much, I dont have any memories of crying myself to sleep, or even wishing that it wasnt happening.

As I got older, into my early teens, my mother was now living with a new partner, my dad and his partner were still living together....it was trying to explain to my friends then, where each one of them fitted into my life...I was embarrassed that my parents were divorced, and did try to hide that...my mother and her new partner, gave me a home to live in, an education and security.....my father and his partner, gave me somewhere to go every second or third weekend, and spend my holidays.....maybe because I was only seven when it all started, I had just accepted that this was MY way of life.

Of course, in my childhood and early teens, I did not know my dad was homosexual, I just assumed that He and his partner were "mates" who decided to live together...His partner was only 11 years older than me, and he was like a big brother, and I loved him like that, and he loved me like that.

Eventually when I was 17 and had just got engaged to be married, my dad sat me down and told me, that he was homosexual....I guess it wasnt that big a shock, maybe i did know there was something there between them, but back then, the word wasnt bandied around like it is now, and I just didnt have a name for it, until Dad said it.

It still wasnt that traumatic...back then, we seemed to accept things that our parents did without question....whatever our parents did, was all right by us....my fiance accepted it, in the same way that I did....him and I married in 1969 and we are still enjoying a wonderful marriage.

I think what I am trying to say here, is that, it wasnt as painful or traumatic as people may think it is....Divorce, no matter why it happens, can be a bad experience for children, I dont doubt that for one minute, and if the divorcing parents are sensible, and nice to one another, it makes it so much easier on the kids....thats what happened with me....I dont think people give kids credit, for their acceptance of what life bestows on them.

Ennis was a lot like my father.....he made sure he gave financial support, he was always in my life, and he was always there for emotional support.

When I saw the movie, it made me realize the depth of the love that my dad had for his partner, all those years ago, and I dont think he was selfish, for leaving my mum and me to have that love....we all survived and lived with it, and made our lives how we needed to, to make ourselves happy.My mum and me, went on to find love too.

When i watched the movie, I kept thinking, "Ennis, go with Jack, the kids will survive ok, go and have the love you deserve".....

When Alma Jnr went to see Ennis to tell him she was getting married, I saw ME, doing exactly the same thing, I was hoping Ennis would tell her about him and Jack, like my dad told me about him and his partner.

I think that scene showed, that it didnt really make any difference that Ennis stayed, this outcome would have been the same whether he had stayed or not....Alma Jnr, had found her own love, and she was going to lead the life she wanted to have, and that was going to happen, whether Ennis stayed with Alma, or Ennis had gone with Jack.......I think Ennis realized that as well, and thats why when he held the shirts and said "I Swear"...he meant, if he could have it all over again, he would not have chosen the path that he did.

Also, it makes no difference if the reason for a marriage break up is the result of two men falling in love, or a man and a woman falling in love..the outcome is still the same, so for the author of that original story, to put shit on the characters in Brokeback Mountain, is very homophobic, and not reality.....just because a marriage breaks up, or a father leaves the marital home to love someone else, that doesnt mean, he still doesnt love his kids in the same way, as he would, if he were there every day with them.Every parent would know that.

[horo35]

This is a thread for discussion of any parent/child relationship in the movie or story -- Ennis and Jack with their parents, with their kids, Lureen with the Newsomes, and any others you think of.


This seems ridiculous to me. For one thing, both Jack and Ennis are caring fathers, more involved with their children than most 1970s dads, and all three kids are depicted as being pretty happy. Are Jack and Ennis the only people in history, in movies or real life, who made mistaken marriages and as a result had affairs or got divorced? What does their homosexuality have to do with it? Who would think to call Johnny Cash a "greedy, selfish, undisciplined heterosexual"? Yet Johnny is depicted -- in that movie, anyway -- as a much less involved and loving dad than Ennis and Jack.

I would definatley agree with you.  They both seemed to be caring fathers...at least the best they could be.  As a matter of fact in the scene where Ennis is with his children in the truck and Jack drives up, Ennis actually turns away Jack in order to be with his kids.  Or Jack driving with his son in the combine and they look like they are having a great time!  My father and mother divorced when I was very young and they sure didn't spend time with me like Jack or Ennis did with their kids in the movie.  In the end homosexuality has nothing to do with it!  It's all based on who we are as people.

[iluvchocolate]

being lesbian or gay has nothing to do with raising children, or teaching them to be a good hearted person.  Everyday my husband and I struggle, just like any other parent to remain a healthy and happy family, and we are from the perfect family we want to be.... I guess my point is that is does not matter on partner preferance, it is what you teach the child.  And I also truely believe that the child not only learns from the parent, but that world also teaches them lessons.  Like T.v teaches things as well I can tell man stories of our kids and the stuff they pick up on t.v.   

Ennis and Jack were the best fathers they could try to be.  Jack had a father that to me believe the best treatment for a child was silencenot being close to him anyway.   And Ennis who had his father pass away at a young age, had his father mess with his mind and show him a man dead who had been dragged around by is privates.  In saying this I think they turned out better then allot of people could have believed that they could be

[Momof2]

I will tell you what is selfish.  It is selfish that society is so horrible to homosexuals that they marry and try to live a "normal life".  It is sad when any family splits.  As long as parents love their children it does not matter where they live.  My mother and father divorced when I was three.  My father lived many hours away from us.  I saw him as often as I could and talked to him all of the time.  Never, not one time did I doubt his love for me or my sisters. 

I have a very good friend that was married to a man that was gay.  He did it because his family would have "died" if they found out he was gay.  All it did was cause problems.  He did not love her because he wanted to be with another person.  She was hurt because he did not want to be intimate with her.  Just a big mess.  Thank goodness she left before they did have kids.  She told me she was not bitter, she just wished he would have told her sooner. There are many straight parents that divorce and destroy their kids lives.

Jack and Ennis were good parents.  If not they would have done what they wanted to-- be together.  I too lived with the misconception that I could not ever leave my kids with my inlaws to get away with my husband.  I finally realized that it was ok.  Now my husband and I let them stay at my inlaws and we go somewhere for the weekend.  Any couple needs that away time.  I am glad and sad that Jack and Ennis had those times together. 

It is both parents responsibility to take care of ALL the needs of their children.  Al that is required to be a good parent is to love your kids and be good to them. 

[serious crayons]

Studies show that where there is a stay at home parent,especially very young children, children have much higher self esteem, get better grades, very less likely to to drugs etc. It is much better for parents to raise their own children, rather than leaving it to day care.

Mark, I know the conversation had moved on, and Chrissi already made a response to this that I wholly agree with, but I could not resist adding my own opinion here. I have written extensively about parenting issues, including the value of parents staying home vs. daycare. In fact, the most reliable studies show only very minor differences between kids in daycare programs vs. kids with an at-home parent. Furthermore, to the extent that there are small differences between kids that correlate with their care arrangements, it can't be determined whether they demonstrate a cause-and-effect relationship. As with so many questions surrounding parenting, people tend to confuse correlation with causation. In fact, the correlation could indicate 1) causation in the other direction (kids placed in daycare BECAUSE they are hard to handle) 2) the result of some third factor (families in which one parent stays home by choice are often more affluent; affluence is associated with better grades and lower drug use) 3) unrelated and coincidental.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Mark, I know the conversation had moved on, and Chrissi already made a response to this that I wholly agree with, but I could not resist adding my own opinion here. I have written extensively about parenting issues, including the value of parents staying home vs. daycare. In fact, the most reliable studies show only very minor differences between kids in daycare programs vs. kids with an at-home parent. Furthermore, to the extent that there are small differences between kids that correlate with their care arrangements, it can't be determined whether they demonstrate a cause-and-effect relationship. As with so many questions surrounding parenting, people tend to confuse correlation with causation. In fact, the correlation could indicate 1) causation in the other direction (kids placed in daycare BECAUSE they are hard to handle) 2) the result of some third factor (families in which one parent stays home by choice are often more affluent; affluence is associated with better grades and lower drug use) 3) unrelated and coincidental.

I stand with  my original statement. When children are small the most valuable thing to be given to then is your (parents) time. They don't care about how fancy a car they ride in, etc. I think  its tragic  to send young children to day car from 9-6.

[nakymaton]

I stand with  my original statement. When children are small the most valuable thing to be given to then is your (parents) time. They don't care about how fancy a car they ride in, etc. I think  its tragic  to send young children to day car from 9-6.

There are so many assumptions behind this that I can't even begin to address them.

I guess the one thing that I do want to point out is that gut feelings and "studies show..." statements about what's best for children have been used against gays and lesbians, over and over. Used to deny same-sex couples the right to marry, used to deny gay men and women the right to adopt children or care for foster children or visit their own biological children. And I think in both cases, it's worth looking at the studies to see what they really say (or what hidden biases they contain), and questioning whether the general assumptions that we make about what's best for children really are true.

I think that Ennis and Jack were great dads. They should never have been husbands, but they seem to be wonderful fathers.

Kids need love. But they don't need to get it from a traditional heterosexual family, with a working father and a stay-at-home mother. They can be raised well (or raised poorly) by grandparents, adoptive parents, gay couples, nannies, daycare, stay-at-home parents...

[ednbarby]

Kids need love. But they don't need to get it from a traditional heterosexual family, with a working father and a stay-at-home mother. They can be raised well (or raised poorly) by grandparents, adoptive parents, gay couples, nannies, daycare, stay-at-home parents...

I think you hit the nail on the head, here.  I think that the reason so many kids and young adults are so disconnected from their parents today is not because their parents stuck them in day care, but because their parents didn't pay attention to them when they were with them.  Now that I'm a parent of a four-year-old, I've seen a lot of different parenting styles.  I've seen parents who stay home with their kids and systematically ignore them all day long, then wonder why they "act out" so much.  I've seen parents who put their kids in day care so that they can afford, eventually, to put them through private school (down here, the public schools are really lacking compared with those in most other states) and college, who spend quality time with them when they're together and the kids are some of the most well-adjusted, mature kids their age I've ever seen.  I've seen parents who are divorced and who both systematically ignore the kids one way or another (and big surprise - the poor kids are brats), and I've seen parents who are divorced who both give their all to their kids when they're with them, and again, the kids are well-adjusted and mature for their age.

Like you said, naky, children just need love.  Unconditional, constant love.  That doesn't mean dote on them or spoil them - it just means PAY ATTENTION TO THEM.  As long as at least one parent and/or care-giver is doing that as much as humanly possible, they're going to be just fine.

Oh, and by the way, I think Ennis and Jack were both good parents - because when they were with their kids, they paid attention to them (well, except for that one time after Ennis and Alma fought - that's understandable).  That's more than I can say for mine at various and sundry times.  And that explains a lot, come to think of it...

(Edited for intolerable (by me) grammatical errors)

[delalluvia]

I stand with  my original statement. When children are small the most valuable thing to be given to then is your (parents) time. They don't care about how fancy a car they ride in, etc. I think  its tragic  to send young children to day car from 9-6.

Sorry, I'm with Kat and Chrissi on this as well.  If you believe that stay at home parents do better by their children then by all means.  But unfortunately, studies do not support your opinion.

A friend of mine and her siblings were raised by her stay at home mom, while her doctor father worked.  Her mother spent most of her time stoned on valium and martinins.  I think my friend might have preferred a daycare.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Sorry, I'm with Kat and Chrissi on this as well.  If you believe that stay at home parents do better by their children then by all means.  But unfortunately, studies do not support your opinion.

A friend of mine and her siblings were raised by her stay at home mom, while her doctor father worked.  Her mother spent most of her time stoned on valium and martinins.  I think my friend might have preferred a daycare.

Of course she would wth an addictive mother.