Author Topic: Why are we like this?  (Read 107073 times)

Offline Rayn

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Re: Why are we like this?
« Reply #110 on: June 29, 2007, 01:15:07 am »
Hi guys,

Just randomly browsing around the site like I do when I have a rare moment of indulgence, & I was struck by your words of feeling you were in a shell, because that is my experience too.  I grew a protective shell because of various childhood factors & although I have come out of it partially when something is such a part of you it is difficult to extricate yourself from it.  I identify with Ennis strongly as I feel he has a self-imposed shell & is very internalized. 

I don't think that everyone who gets BBM necessarily has this same experience & it's probably fruitless to ask, but you can't help being curious can you?   :)


Nic, you have a very valid point about Ennis and many people who live in "protective shells" because of childhood experiences.  It's pretty clear why Ennis is the way he is, except to Ennis, who is only to beginning to understand himself at the end of the movie.

Considering why we are "like this",  I'd like to add that I think people who've known a lot of loss in life can be more deeply moved by the movie.  I know that's true for me.  I've thought about why that is, and slowly it's become clear that the profound effect the movie had on me is directly related to the amount of loss I've had in life.  If I'm like others, and I am, then people who've known great loss identify with the characters more; so the emotional impact and obsession can be greater for us.

I'm sure everyone in the community relates to the movie with or without personal loss, because there's so much in it that's so real to us, but loss is the terrible fact in Ennis' life, which doesn't even begin to look at the losses in Jack's life!  Ennis' losses of parents, childhood innocence, siblings, a marriage and then Jack are overwhelming.   It's a wonder he didn't sink into depression and go under for good.  Thank goodness for his girls and the little bit of light the begins to shine through the crack in the shell at the end of the movie.  

Rayn
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 01:31:15 am by Rayn »

Offline nic

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Re: Why are we like this?
« Reply #111 on: June 29, 2007, 09:57:23 am »
...... Thank goodness for his girls and the little bit of light the begins to shine through the crack in the shell at the end of the movie.  

Rayn[/color][/size]

I also say thank goodness for Jack, as Jack was the one to first infiltrate Ennis's "shell". When Jack was around that shell more or less exploded into a thousand pieces!  I had a "Jack" (a "Jill", or "Jackie", actually) that first infiltrated my shell so again that's what I can relate to in this story.  Later on I think Ennis let Alma Jnr in due to the unconditional love he uncontrollably experienced for his child, but with the framework being a parent-sibling relationship it's not the same as a partner/lover relationship - equally wondrous I should say, as is any connection, especially for those who are so internalized.

Great points about loss - at first I thought you meant exclusivley loss of person you were close to, but I agree with the other examples you came up.  Premature or enforced loss of childhood innocence has so many profound effects, & can affect in different ways, as shown by J & E - they both experienced that in different ways & it later expressed itself differently. 

The common factor definitely must have something to do with life experience (such as these losses), as in general it tends to affect people roughly mid-20s & upwards and/or those that have had "crosses to bear" earlier in life.  It's relatively rare to find people who don't relate their reaction to BBM to something deeper rather than completely not knowing why they feel it so strongly.
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Offline Rayn

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Re: Why are we like this?
« Reply #112 on: June 30, 2007, 02:09:38 am »
I agree with you Nic, 100%....  Thanks for your letter~

Rayn

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Why are we like this?
« Reply #113 on: June 30, 2007, 04:48:49 am »
The common factor definitely must have something to do with life experience (such as these losses), as in general it tends to affect people roughly mid-20s & upwards and/or those that have had "crosses to bear" earlier in life.  It's relatively rare to find people who don't relate their reaction to BBM to something deeper rather than completely not knowing why they feel it so strongly.


Another big factor, if not the biggest, in the movie is regrets. It's apparent that the majority of people here on BM (and I think also on DC) are not teenagers or in their twenties anymore. I'd say most of us are not too far from 40 or older than 40.

It's logical: when you're 40, you already have half of your life behind you. You are old enough to have some life experiences. We all make mistakes in our lives, turn the wrong way, make wrong decisions. The longer you live, the more chances to make wrong decisions. Only few people manage to reach 40 without having some things in their life they truly regret.

So regret is another common factor.

Offline Rayn

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Re: Why are we like this?
« Reply #114 on: June 30, 2007, 11:03:55 am »
Yes, regret is a big factor, for sure.  And like merr7242, I too felt that when I first saw the movie.  An awareness of regret set me in motion to change things in my life so that I wouldn't do or create things that I might soon regret.  I got a new job (in the same field), moved to another city and changed my vacation plans to do see Alberta this year instead of doing the same old same old. 

But for me at least, an awareness of why the movie had such a big impact on me and the connection to the personal losses  came much later.  I felt the loss of Jack in the movie first of course and knew in some ways it was similar to losing someone I loved, but much later, I realized that there were many more emotional threads that were connected that I hadn't really seen. 

In fact, I just became aware of them a year or so after watching the movie the first time.  Sometimes the deeper insights come more slowly to some of us, I guess.   Oh, and about age and life experiences, you're right on, Penthesilea , right on.

Rayn

Offline TheravadaAskesis

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Re: Why are we like this?
« Reply #115 on: June 30, 2007, 09:21:40 pm »

 I love this thread, why this movie has such a hold on me is something I've wondered about too. And I agree with you guys about the idea of regret playing a role in it. After Jack and Ennis lose their Eden on Brokeback they spend their lives trying to recreate it for all too brief moments. But they're never successful, they can can recreate the environment (wilderness, camping, horseback riding) but it wasn't the environment that made it special in the first place.
 This cycle of trying to recreate or hold onto idyllic times in life by reusing the familiar outward trappings while ignoring the emotional and actually special inside is a cycle I can relate to. This ties into the idea of regret for me because of all the wasted time spent trying to recreate something instead  of realizing what was important and creating or finding something new. Seeing Jack and Ennis live through this cycle without ever figuring it out (well Jack does in the final encounter by the lake) was a crushing experience for me. I think the initial reason for me being obsessed with this movie was me trying to figure out consciously what my gut recognized immediately.
 Eventually when I started to figure it out, this movie became a reminder to me about the need to remember the past and know what was important about it, but to ultimately move forward and find those important things in a new more sustainable place. That is why I'll always have Brokeback on the mind, because it reminds me to move forward and never forget the lessons I've learned.

Offline Rayn

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Re: Why are we like this?
« Reply #116 on: July 01, 2007, 02:55:13 am »

....... this movie became a reminder to me about the need to remember the past and know what was important about it, but to ultimately move forward and find those important things in a new more sustainable place.



Right on bro!  I feel the same way too

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Re: Why are we like this?
« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2007, 06:30:54 pm »
But they're never successful, they can can recreate the environment (wilderness, camping, horseback riding) but it wasn't the environment that made it special in the first place.
This is such a wise observation. My co-worker and friend, when finally catching up with Brokeback Mountain via DVD, stated that he expected the film to be much sadder, citing the frequent rendezvous enjoyed by Ennis and Jack as mitigating factors in the ultimate tragedy. But I think he was overlooking, as so many of us have, the stasis that these furtive get-togethers represented, and the kind of entrapment that resulted from them. As you point out, Jack eventually came to recognize this, and wanted something more fulfilling than what these trysts represented.

It compounds the tragedy at the end that Ennis is transfixed by the visible reminders of that vanished summer of 1963, suggesting that he remains stuck in a state of desire for circumstances that can never be recaptured.

Offline Rayn

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Re: Why are we like this?
« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2007, 11:45:19 pm »

It compounds the tragedy at the end that Ennis is transfixed by the visible reminders of that vanished summer of 1963, suggesting that he remains stuck in a state of desire for circumstances that can never be recaptured.

         Yes, TheravadaAskesis' observation about what really makes a place truly special is excellent!  I don't, however, see Ennis "stuck in a state of desire for circumstances that can never be recaptured."  and here's why and what I mean....

    There are many other suggestions and ideas in the movie about how Ennis might end up.  He found the shirts in the closet almost by chance.  I say almost by chance because what Ennis is compelled to do after Jack's death is "...to see what happened."  Taken in a context broader than just how Jack died, seeing what happened leads Ennis to a greater understanding of the value of love.  Though it may seem that way, Ennis didn't find the shirts in Jack's closet just by chance.  He set himself on an active search for "what happened" and in doing so he discovered that "love happened" and happened more deeply than he understood when Jack was alive. 

    Finding their shirts together as they were, the realization of how much Jack had loved from the start came to the forefront of Ennis' heart and mind.  It is, in fact, a sad and painful but liberating experience for Ennis which is why he can begin to start changing his ways when his daughter tells him of her wedding plans.

      In that scene, everything is so plain on Ennis' face and in his eyes, "This guy, he loves you?" was the important question, a question Ennis only half understood before losing Jack and finding their shirts. The end of Brokeback Mountain is filled with both losing and finding, loss and gain, discovery and realization for Ennis.   It's sad he learns one of life's most important lessons when it's too late to share it with Jack, but at least he's realized it and in that there is hope. The frightening thing is that it may be too late to find someone else to love, but it's not impossible.   Having had the realization, Ennis may very well be able to change his isolation, work through and rise above his fears, and in time, find someone else to love. 

Anyway, I know that's optimistic, and we all have valid and different points of view, but that's what I see in the picture from where I sit in the theater!    Have a wonderful day all you Brokies...

;)

Peace,
Rayn



« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 11:55:59 pm by Rayn »

Offline TheravadaAskesis

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Re: Why are we like this?
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2007, 12:22:46 am »

 Hey moremojo and Rayn,
 
 I'm glad you enjoyed my post and thanks for the compliments. To add to this conversation I was wondering about a couple of things that happen at the end of Brokeback. I should go back and look but I'm pretty sure when we see the view through Ennis's window at the end there are no mountains to be seen, just prairie. Could this be symbolic of Ennis's no longer looking for Jack in the mountains but instead finally living together with Jack in his home (i.e.- the shirts). I wonder about this because Proulx writes in the short story that Ennis didn't want to "know Jack was...to be buried on the grieving plain." Could the view of the prairie be Ennis's acceptance of the loss of Jack?
 Another point I wonder about is, if Ennis was relying on those trips to the mountain as an attempt at having the best of both worlds (being with Jack, but being able to remain safe in his shell) was it maybe for the best that he wasn't allowed to get the ashes from the Twists?
If Ennis had spread the ashes of Jack on Brokeback would he have just returned there over and over by himself, still trying to recapture that summer. Would being able to go back to Brokeback and be with Jack whenever he wanted (even if Jack was only there in spirit and ash), be enough for him not to move on? Again maybe this ties in with the image of the prairie in the final shoot as being symbolic of Ennis having moved on from, although not forgotten about or stopped loving, Jack.
  I'm new to Bettermost and have really enjoyed the posts I've read from you guys in other parts of the forums while I've been exploring. Thanks again for the positive replies.