Why are we like this?

[twistedude]

Since I love Brokeback, and am totally indifferent to Titanic, I---oy.

My shrink says it's because I just had to auction off my huge baseball card collection, and needed something to fill the hole in my life....I suppose it's possible, but I think she's just looking for an excuse..."I don't love you as if you were the salt-rose, topaz..."

[dly64]

Aren't those simply examples of hypocracy? Are you saying that when people loudly thump their causes its largely because they're hypocrites? I don't know but it certainly sounds very plausible. If these people focus on what others do and don't say and do, then they avoid having to look at themselves. Was that your point, dly64?

Absolutely. Those who are open to discussion and debate about certain topics are more comfortable with their inner dialogue. They are not trying to prove something to themselves or anyone else. They are open to exploring all sides of an issue. I always say that a person who protests/ criticises others too loudly has something they are avoiding or trying to hide (from themselves and others).

[fontaine]

Absolutely. Those who are open to discussion and debate about certain topics are more comfortable with their inner dialogue. They are not trying to prove something to themselves or anyone else. They are open to exploring all sides of an issue. I always say that a person who protests/ criticises others too loudly has something they are avoiding or trying to hide (from themselves and others).

How do you think people end up one way or the other? In Brokeback, Ennis was a closed person per his, "I ain't no queer" speech to Jack coupled with his continuing choices. In his case, it seems he'd been traumatized by being taken as a child to see the mutilated corpse of a dead gay man for starters. While that provides a logical explanation for Ennis, I doubt it's the only way that people end up either open or close-minded. What do you think?

[serious crayons]

How do you think people end up one way or the other? In Brokeback, Ennis was a closed person per his, "I ain't no queer" speech to Jack coupled with his continuing choices. In his case, it seems he'd been traumatized by being taken as a child to see the mutilated corpse of a dead gay man for starters. While that provides a logical explanation for Ennis, I doubt it's the only way that people end up either open or close-minded. What do you think?

Actually, I think Ennis is something of an example of the protest-too-much type -- though not a vocal gay-basher of the kind we've been discussing -- because he'd grown up constantly having to hide his own feelings. The Earl experience is not so much the cause of his trauma as the tip of the iceberg. Believing his dad capable of torturing a man to death for being gay, knowing that his dad's view represented the whole community's prevailing sentiment, and meanwhile realizing that he himself was attracted to men, would make for many nightmarish years. Especially since he seems to have respected his dad otherwise, and would feel pressured to remember him even more respectfully after his death.

[dly64]

Actually, I think Ennis is something of an example of the protest-too-much type -- though not a vocal gay-basher of the kind we've been discussing -- because he'd grown up constantly having to hide his own feelings. The Earl experience is not so much the cause of his trauma as the tip of the iceberg. Believing his dad capable of torturing a man to death for being gay, knowing that his dad's view represented the whole community's prevailing sentiment, and meanwhile realizing that he himself was attracted to men, would make for many nightmarish years. Especially since he seems to have respected his dad otherwise, and would feel pressured to remember him even more respectfully after his death.

I agree, latjoreme. Ennis tried to live a straight life. He tried proving to himself and everyone else that he was a hetero. Didn't work so great because he couldn't give himself to anyone else but Jack. Could this be, at least in part, why Ennis was so explosive? It was a way to avoid what he was actually feeling (Just an idea!) 

[Rayn]

"Why do we care so much?  Who are we?"

The one thing we all seem to share (or at least, to have shared at some point) is this huge, unexplainable, consuming passion for one particular movie (and/or short story). But why?!?!??

Well, for me, and I know from reading posts here, for other people too, Brokeback Mt. was a story that contained "pieces of our lives", actual events and moments, situations and feelings that happened to viewers. We identified with it.  I felt when I first saw it that both Ennis and Jack "were in me"!  I knew their joys and their suffering.  I also happen to love the mountains and horses, but I don't quality as a cowboy even if I can ride well. 

I've written about this in a couple other posts… the most intense part of the story that I had actually lived was when Ennis finds Jacks shirt in Jack's bedroom closet.  I lost a loved one long ago and it was very painful, the longing, the missing him after he was gone was so intense that I began going to our closet and fingering his shirts, holding  sweaters.  I'd put one that actually had Joe’s scent on it to my face and inhale, just like Ennis did in the movie!

Well, I don't need to say much about the impact that scene had on me.  I thought I was gonna fall apart. I’m ok now, but in fact, I couldn’t watch the movie for long while after the first time. It was too painful. 

I believe that what Ennis and I did with clothing must be a more common experience than people imagine.  It may even have happened to Annie too or someone she knew.  I lost Joe nearly 20 years ago, but the grief of that loss came back when I saw Brokeback, and I related to their joy as well, of course. 

It's a story of love between two men and we all understand love or want to.  And it's one of the first movies that has dealt so well and so realistically with men in love.  That's part of why we are the way we are... it's a first in many ways and it is so very real to so many of us.

Rayn

[Lynne]

I want to revive this thread because of a late-night coffee conversation after the Fox Theatre viewing in Atlanta.  I guess it might warrant it's own thread, but I think there are a lot of good ideas here that we can use as building blocks.

We were talking about one of our favorite subjects - why are we moved to obsession by BBM when other people (especially friends usually intelligent, sensitive and all the rest) were singularly unmoved.  [No time needs to be spent on the 'just don't get it crowd'.]  These are our bosom mates who left us with 'a very good movie, but I still don't see why you needed to see it 19 or 44 or however many times...are you sure you're alright?'

I'm talking about the people we know and love who we fully expected would understand it at our level and thereby further bond through this singular life-altering experience.  Rather we were left strangely empty and disappointed at their very lack of understanding, which only compounded the pain and alienation we were already feeling based on the movie itself.

I think Aussie Chris' ealier post takes my idea of some people being 'emotionally ready' or 'open' to the message while others just aren't and expands on it beautilfully:

Hey Katherine et al, well it's been a while but I couldn't resist posting in response to this excellent question, and I think I have a very simple explanation for the Brokeback-effect: the people who are moved by it are ready to heal.  Everyone has emotional baggage, but the worst thing we all do is settle for less than our hearts desire.  Or maybe there is one thing that is worse; we convince ourselves that we are undeserving.  We spend so much time lowering our expectations that we forget that we ever had any.  And in Ennis we see ourselves and the fruit of such an existence.

But as I said, it's not that we have issues to deal with, but that we are ready to deal with them - to be healed.  For me this was about letting go of the shame I had for falling for a straight guy a decade ago, building up a relationship in my head before one actually existed and then being too stubborn to let it go.  This is all just part of growing up to be sure, but so damaging was the fallout of this situation that I refused to let myself feel that sort of love again, and then there was the nice touch of a double helping of denial to make it all seem "ok".

Not being ready to heal is just like leading a thirsty horse to water, if the horse doesn't know that it's thirsty then it might not think to drink.  For viewers of Brokeback Mountain it's the same thing.  Someone may have the worst case of loneliness and regret in the world, but unless they are ready to face this, then all they will see is "just a movie" and nothing more.  For these people, I have nothing but compassion and understanding - I don't think they are "less" because of this, but I do think we are more.

I think that is the best-stated explanation I've read - at least it comes closest to describing my personal experience.  So given these interpretations, we posed a couple of questions over that coffee in Atlanta.  The one I want to discuss here specifically is this:

Assume all things being equal (Jake + Heath + Ang, etc.. came together to make the exact same movie) 5 years ago or 10 years ago or 5 years from now or 10 years from now, how would your perception and experience been similar or different?

I'm just tossing this out...I've been thinking about it off and on all week; for me, at least the answers are probably complex, but I'm interesting in what others thing while I'm working up  reply.

-Lynne

[ednbarby]

Good question, Lynne.  It's hard for me to speak to how I'd perceive it if it didn't come out until 5 or 10 years from now because its having come out when it did and affecting me like it did colors everything in my life, especially the way I look at movies.  You know?  It's kind of a chicken and egg proposition for me.

But I can speak to how I'd have perceived it 10 (or more) years ago.  I'm fairly certain I wouldn't have been ready in the sense Chris described - ready to face my issues.  I think I'd have been like that horse at the water's edge that doesn't even realize he's thirsty.  And on a different level, 10 or more years ago I had seen that many fewer movies and would have had that much less of a basis for comparison.  The more movies you see, the more you hunger for something original.  And the finer your taste becomes, I think.  10 or more years ago, I was only just discovering foreign films and independent films were just coming into the fold (at least as far as I was concerned).  I always liked movies that made me think and that changed me in some way, so I was always partway there.  But I don't think I'd have even fully appreciated how artistically advanced it is back then.

When I look at all the living I've done in the last ten years - the rough spots in my marriage and extended family relationships and career, having a child and how that changed everything infinitely more than I could have possibly prepared myself for, surviving a severe case of post-partum depression (and I don't use the word "surviving" facetiously - I almost didn't make it), wading through the widening water in my marriage since our son came - it's no wonder I must have reached a point where I was ready to deal with it all.

Another point Chris brought up that strikes me - that someone could be filled with loneliness and regret and yet still see this as "just a movie" - that fits a friend of mine to a tee - a friend to whom I lent one of my copies of the movie months ago, and she still can't bring herself to watch it.  Not because she has any issues that she's aware of with homosexuality, but because she says she's seen how it's affected me and she's afraid it'll level her.  She's someone who generally goes out of her way to watch only movies she knows will probably have a happy ending - Hollywood stuff.  Yet every now and again she'll surprise me and tell me she's seen a movie I thought she'd have never chosen and that she enjoyed it, "even though it made her cry."  I've told her if she really doesn't think she'll ever watch it, she can give it back - I don't mean to pressure her to watch something she's not interested in.  But she doesn't want to let it go.  She'll say, "Oh, I'll watch it.  Eventually."  One day recently she said to me, "You know, I almost watched your movie last night."  I'm glad she's waiting until she's ready.

[henrypie]

5 or 10 years ago, I think I would have been almost as vulnerable to the movie as I was in January.  It hit me on a sore spot that, maybe at least in part because of the movie, or maybe for other reasons, has healed to the point that I don't think, six months later, it would have caused a reaction of such magnitude.  How do I put this: I have intermittent bouts of cataclysmic emotional vulnerability.  (I'm not talkin menstrual.)  When I was younger I was more of a general raw nerve and was much better at dealing with that; now I'm in a relationship, I'm an "adult," I'm a professional; it's no longer my primary job to explore my own feelings, so I get rusty at doing so, while my feelings go no less in need of exploration.  That said, I'm still probably above average for feelings-exploration.  As are we all, I suspect.

I've never had a fish taco.

[dly64]

IAssume all things being equal (Jake + Heath + Ang, etc.. came together to make the exact same movie) 5 years ago or 10 years ago or 5 years from now or 10 years from now, how would your perception and experience been similar or different?

Looking back is easier for me than looking forward. However, there are a couple of things I do know. 10 years ago I was a very different person. I was in a relatively young relationship (actually, it was already four years old … more of that in a minute) and I was very confident. I was working on my MBA, I was a director of a marketing department and I was extremely fit and comfortable with my appearance. At that time, I don’t know if I would have felt the “dagger” in my heart like I do now.

In the last 10 years … the following things have happened:
•   I completed my MBA (which was a good thing).
•   I lost my job because of a buy-out and a downsizing. (I did get another job – but it all played havoc with my self esteem).
•   I have battled my weight for several years now.
•   I lost my dad to cancer.
•   I am in the same relationship that I was in before. Now I know, however, I will never be with him the way that I had always hoped. I live in IN, he lives in SC – I am white, he is black. My family doesn’t have a problem with this … I have a sister-in-law who is from Trinidad. However, we are a secret because his parents can not accept the fact that he would date a white girl. Therein lies the rub.

In short, my life is not even remotely the same as it was 10 years ago. Now when I see BBM, it kills me. All of the pain, which is so palpable, breaks me in two. I am especially in tune with Jack’s devastation after he realizes he will never have the life with Ennis that he craved. Listening to the lyrics on the BBM soundtrack makes me cry. Jack’s death is also difficult. Knowing what it is to lose someone you love is extremely overwhelming. I think back to all of the times I could have told my dad how much he was loved and appreciated instead of taking him for granted …. everything I could have said or done that I didn’t …. It took me over seven years to accept my dad’s death.  I can only imagine what it would have been like for Ennis … who lost the love of his life.