Ashamed of being straight?

[TheStudDuck!]

Greetings gang,

I know I'm not much of a poster these days... but I had something that has kind of been on my mind that I thought perhaps my Brokies could help me out with.  I figured if anyone could understand, it could be some of the people that have been impacted by this film.  This thread could actually be put into a different forum, but I wanted to put it here because I trust my Tremblayans more... and this is one of those things that I need to feel comfortable with talking about first... so if one of the moderators want to move it after a few days, then feel free...

So, to get down to business, let's do some explaining on why I'm posting this thread.

I was talking about the film Boogie Nights with a friend of mind and she said, "I hear there's a shocking moment of male nudity in that one," and I told her that he has a huge cock, but it isn't shown until the end... "they just kept teasing me" (that's how I phrased it) until then.  At which point she said, "it's comments like that which make me think you're bi."

It's not that I was offended by her comment.  I'm not.  But it just frustrates me because it's like everyone expects me to be gay... or to at least be sexually attracted to men.  I mean, just last week, two of my co-workers had told me that they had thought that perhaps I was gay, after I had mentioned that one of the guys that worked with us (but quit) was a "pretty good lookin' guy."

I guess what I'm trying to say is that... throughout my life... people have made this assumption... like, I guess some of my interests are not typical of your male trying to showcase his masculinity... so, I don't know what it is, but people always tell me that they really think I'm gay -- as if they should know better than me.

You know, I did community theatre for over five years.  And I really do love the film, The Bridges of Madison County.  And I hate sports.  And I hate degrading women when none are around as if they are trophies to be won and shown off.  And I'm so comfortable with myself and who I am that I'm able to say (aloud) if I think a male is attractive without feeling like it's a big deal (because it isn't).  But people treat it as such.

What I'm saying is that... I've always had a problem with feeling like people have expectations for me that I just don't have the ability to live up to.  That's always been something that has been hard for me to deal with.  And this just taps into that problem and brings me down... as if everyone expects me to be gay... but that's just not who I am.

I was hoping that maybe some of the gay males (heck, maybe even females) could understand where I'm coming from.  I mean, to feel ashamed of your sexuality?

I mean, I don't have anything against homosexuality or the gay community or anything like that... I love all you guys... but it's just like people want me to be something that I'm not.  I'd feel the same way if people constantly told me that I should be a math teacher.  You know, I'm not like great at math, and I actually hate math, so why would I want to be a math teacher!?  It's not really offensive (but it is in some ways, I suppose)... it just gets really old after a while.  To the point where it's annoying.

I suppose that I'm also somewhat sensitive to the subject because throughout middle school and high school, I was always called "fag" and "queer" (common insults during those years for many is what I understand) and one year my cousin happened to tell every single person in my family that I was gay and that I had an obsession with Kevin Bacon... which led to being made fun of in ways that I've opted to block out.

I've always been one that trusts women significantly more than I do men.  And I love women because they make me feel a certain way that men just don't.  There's just something about them.

And it's not as if I'm closeted and I'm secretly thinking about Brad Pitt when I masturbate and I just haven't admitted to everyone that I'm a flaming homosexual -- which everyone seems like they think will happen sometime in the future.  Or at least admit that I'm bisexual.

It's just never been that way.  I've always been attracted to women and only women... and while people may be surprised by that, it's the truth and it's just who I am.  Sexual orientation has nothing to do with your interests or anything like that... it's just one of those things, like your favorite color.

So why is it such a huge deal?  And why do people make me feel like I'm supposed to be something that I'm not?

I'm just looking for thoughts and comments.  Any and all would be appreciated.

Yours,
David Thomas

[opinionista]

You know, I did community theatre for over five years.  And I really do love the film, The Bridges of Madison County.  And I hate sports.  And I hate degrading women when none are around as if they are trophies to be won and shown off.  And I'm so comfortable with myself and who I am that I'm able to say (aloud) if I think a male is attractive without feeling like it's a big deal (because it isn't).

You seem so perfect. I'll marry you! (just kidding  )

David, I don't think you are alone in this. A lot of heterosexual men deal with situations similar to the one you're dealing with, just because they refuse to be the typical macho man. I have two friends that are straight (they don't know each other) and everyone around keep saying they're closeted gays. One of my friends doesn't care. He's actually flattered by the rumors (like Jake Gyllenhaal) because according to him it means that he's so hot that even men want to sleep with him.

The other one is a bit annoyed, and doesn't understand why people think he's gay. He has no problem with gay men or women, its just that, like you, he feels some people want him to be something he's not.

I'm straight woman and I do the same when I see an attractive woman. I say it and sometimes even look at her and admire her, but that doesn't mean I want to sleep with her. I'm sure some people might think I'm lesbian. No one has ever asked me though. But I'm not.

So why is it such a huge deal?  And why do people make me feel like I'm supposed to be something that I'm not?

That's something I 've always wondered myself regarding many aspects of my life. Why people want me to be something I'm not? I guess it is that we all grow up learning ideas and concepts about how things are supposed to be. We make up all these models about life and people in our heads and when we see something different we have trouble accepting it. For example, some people assume that because I'm hispanic only eat beans, tacos and tamales and I don't like tofu. I actually hate beans and never tried tamales in my life. I like tacos and also tofu! Others think that because I have a hearing disability I can't listen to music and I don't know who's U2, for example. It goes on and on.

I guess you have to try not to be bothered by it as long as you are sure of you are, because you cannot change the ideas people have of the world and the people in it.

[David]

G'morning David Thomas,

    Well, the public has always had a fascination with other peoples sex lives.  I think for most of them, they live vicariously thru the sex lives of others.   And seeing people as bi or gay makes them more exciting.   Or for those who are not comfortable with their own sexuality, it makes them uncomfortable or threatened.  Silly isn't it?

   The human brain works in weird ways and never the same way in every person.   Studies have shown that a persons sexuality is determined at birth.  But not everyone acts apon those feelings for different reasons.   Some people just need longer time to accept these feelings.  Some never do.     Unfortunately people do stereotype eachother.   

   When I was young, I thought the world was black and white.  But now I realize that not only are there shades of gray in the middle, but a colorful mix of wondeful people.  Some good, some bad.   But a persons sexual identity should not be joked about.    There is no "normal".   Even in the heterosexual world I see great diversity of behavior and even fetishes.

  As for a straight guy saying another man is attractive, ie: Jake Gyllenhaal,  that is just being honest.   A person who is truly comfortable with themselves wouldn't hesitate to say so.    Many times this happens.   I recall my father and mother asking me who I thought was attractive overall.    At the time I said,  "Hmm, a 20-30 year old Robert Redford?"    Mom smiled, my Dad said :"That's funny, I always thought Tom Selleck from Magnum P.I. was a handsome fella, a real mans-man"     I burst out laughing.

Or remember the movie; "About Last Night"  ??   With Rob Lowe, Demi moore and James Belushi?   The James Belushi character told Rob Lowe :"Your problem is that you are too good looking.  Girls are afraid of you.  You need a good industrial accident to help improve your love life".      Oh yeah, we do live in a strange society!  LOL

So David Thomas, I think you have already answered your question.   You know one must be comfortable with themselves before you can be happy with others.   As for stereotypes, they will always be there.   I can't speak for what turns you on sexually.   It may be girls, maybe boys later?   maybe never.  I doesn't really matter does it?   There are plenty of non-athletic, sensative, heterosexual guys out there.    There are plenty of butch, manly, construction worker types who love to come home and jump in the sack with their own Jack Twist.     The important thing is that your friends and family will accept you.  If they don't, then the problem lies within themselves, not you.

I am not afraid to say or think a passing girl is pretty.  That doesn't mean I want to have sex with her.  Then again, maybe I could?     Just because you see a guy as handsome doesn't mean you want to jump him either.   Then again, maybe someday you will.    That is the trouble with life.  There is no hand book or owners manual!

[opinionista]

I am not afraid to say or think a passing girl is pretty.  That doesn't mean I want to have sex with her.  Then again, maybe I could?     Just because you see a guy as handsome doesn't mean you want to jump him either.   Then again, maybe someday you will.    That is the trouble with life.  There is no hand book or owners manual!

So true! I agree with you there David! Like Jake Gyllenhaal said, I'm not sexually attracted to women but don't think I'll be afraid if it happens someday.

[ednbarby]

What an interesting topic of conversation.  What struck me most in your post, David, was the thought that us straight women are "allowed" to comment on other women's attractiveness *all the time*, and no one bats an eye.  I remember after the Golden Globes, my two female coworkers and I sat around and talked about who was the most gorgeous and best-dressed woman for like, ten minutes.  One of our straight male coworkers came up and joined in, and never said anything like, "Have any of you girls ever considered the thought that you might be gay?"

Again, it's that double-standard.  And as much as I often envy you straight guys - because let's face it - you rule the world - I pity you at times, too.  Society is constantly expecting you to prove your masculinity.  Frankly, David, you just sound like a good man to me.  A damned good one.  Straight or gay doesn't matter, but I'm confident that you know yourself better than anyone else.  But then I've never been obsessed with what other people do with their midlands in the privacy of their own homes like so many of my so-called Christian acquaintances seem to be.

When my husband first watched Brokeback with me, when the back seat scene came up and Jack says, "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going," he said "Jesus.  He *is* handsome."  (Ed is, uh, aware that I have a little bit of a crush on Mr. Gyllenhaal, so I think that right there, he was just validating my taste.  )  He's said that or some variation of that about a few other men, some famous, some we know personally over the years.  I've never thought anything of it, or if I did, I was just glad he didn't feel afraid to say so - that he was secure enough in himself and his own sexuality that he doesn't feel vulnerable commenting on the attractiveness of another man.  We both talk about women we think are gorgeous all the time.  It's only fair that we can both talk about men in the same way, too.

[MaineWriter]

I am not afraid to say or think a passing girl is pretty.  That doesn't mean I want to have sex with her.  Then again, maybe I could?     Just because you see a guy as handsome doesn't mean you want to jump him either.   Then again, maybe someday you will.    That is the trouble with life.  There is no hand book or owners manual!

So true, David. Your comment made me think of this line from a certain fanfic I am addicted to (not my own). The speaker is saying it to Ennis:

"All you knew was ranchin an goin through ta ninth grade, no one ever sent you the Handbook a Queer Survival ta study before ya went up sheepherdin.”


Leslie

[chefjudy]

 

Like Jake Gyllenhaal said, I'm not sexually attracted to women but don't think I'll be afraid if it happens someday.

I think this line was taken out of context - I believe the quote was about Jake being turned on by men, not women since he already has more women than he could possibly handle......................

[delalluvia]

What everyone said, pretty much.

Is it possible when your friend was speaking to you about your comment possibly implying you being 'bi' she might have been trying to warn you that your comments did not fit into society's 'molds'?  Or that possibly SHE thinks you're bi and are just trying to hide it and if you are, you need to watch comments like that?

An  ex-boyfriend of mine was called into a counselors office at his school once because at his age, every other guy had pics of half-naked women and sports stars decorating their dorm rooms, he had a cat calendar and he fumed that he didn't know what the big deal was - he liked cats!

Again, it's difficult projecting one image but being another, but there isn't much you can do about it if you want to remain true to yourself.  I'd say be yourself and worry less about what others think.

[Front-Ranger]

Most people are bi to some extent, some more than others. The bigger question is, are we going to let other people's judgements rule how we think of ourselves? That's what Ennis did. Jack didn't let other people influence how he saw himself, even when they were as cruel as Aguirre. I am not ashamed of being straight, but I don't let being straight rule me. There are so many beautiful and appealing women in the world too and it would be a shame to leave them out of my fantasies! But I know it's easier for women than men. In my circles, lesbian women are often looked up to and admired. It's not been an easy time for straight men these days. Payback time.

[silkncense]

I have a little bit different take on this topic - or maybe I'm going totally off topic.  

I'd never thought anyone would consider me gay cause I am not.  I think people may be wondering now because of my obsession w/ Brokeback Mtn & my recent trip to SF to meet everyone.  That matters not at all to me.

But, being straight in a mindset that is not typical of your sex is a different thing.  When I was a very little girl, I wanted to be a cowBOY (got pictures to prove it).  If I was dressed in a dress, I put pants on under it.  I have ALWAYS wanted to be with the boys playing - not the girls.  I thought girls were boring & boys got to do all the great, exciting things in life like tramping through the woods & catching snakes (which scare me now.  I did love playing w/ dolls tho')  In band, I played trumpet (1st chair).

My career choice was a decidedly male occupation, one that women were just breaking into & carried a lot of controversy with it.  Consequently I was primarily around men and loved it - felt perfectly at home & comfortable with them.  (I had been a typist/secretary for a short period of time & simply did not/could not bond with any of the women.  In fact I have not bonded with women in general).

I LOVE men.  I'd still rather be with men at any given time.  I love everything about them.  Their faces, their bodies, their way of bonding, the way I never feel there is some underlying fakeness to them.  The latter implies I think women are fake.  This is my problem.   I remember always thinking that women were not being true to themselves when they spoke - probably because my opinions, interests, etc were so different.  Now I think it is simply me.

I love sports, I hate talking about babies.  I wanted to play the drums.  I never wear a dress unless it is formal (and then I love dressing up!)  I love make-up & loved (awhile back) being slim, sexy & attracting men.

I have never felt I was "in the wrong body."  I am completely comfortable as a female.  I have been physically attracted to the beauty of some women but never sexually attracted to a woman.  And very, very rarely emotionally.

SO, where the hell do I fit?  Like you said David, so many shades...

EDIT - Should have said, I love WATCHING sports - must be because I get to look at men!  Actually, I enjoy the sport but do watch only men playing... HMMMMMMM.

[dmmb_Mandy]

I understand, David. People love to fit individuals into convenient categories. It's unfortunate, really. In high school, my own friends mocked me and my *slight* obsession for Angelina Jolie. They ignored the fact that I had a boyfriend whom I adored and were fixated on the big Angelina poster on my wall, and I was thus a "dyke". Hell, I question myself and my sexuality from time to time but that doesn't give anyone the right to tell me what or who I am. David, you certainly don't need to fit any societal male ideal, just be yourself; be whatever-the-fuck you want. 

[opinionista]

I have a little bit different take on this topic - or maybe I'm going totally off topic.  

I'd never thought anyone would consider me gay cause I am not.  I think people may be wondering now because of my obsession w/ Brokeback Mtn & my recent trip to SF to meet everyone.  That matters not at all to me.

But, being straight in a mindset that is not typical of your sex is a different thing.  When I was a very little girl, I wanted to be a cowBOY (got pictures to prove it).  If I was dressed in a dress, I put pants on under it.  I have ALWAYS wanted to be with the boys playing - not the girls.  I thought girls were boring & boys got to do all the great, exciting things in life like tramping through the woods & catching snakes (which scare me now.  I did love playing w/ dolls tho')  In band, I played trumpet (1st chair).

My career choice was a decidedly male occupation, one that women were just breaking into & carried a lot of controversy with it.  Consequently I was primarily around men and loved it - felt perfectly at home & comfortable with them.  (I had been a typist/secretary for a short period of time & simply did not/could not bond with any of the women.  In fact I have not bonded with women in general).

I LOVE men.  I'd still rather be with men at any given time.  I love everything about them.  Their faces, their bodies, their way of bonding, the way I never feel there is some underlying fakeness to them.  The latter implies I think women are fake.  This is my problem.   I remember always thinking that women were not being true to themselves when they spoke - probably because my opinions, interests, etc were so different.  Now I think it is simply me.

I love sports, I hate talking about babies.  I wanted to play the drums.  I never wear a dress unless it is formal (and then I love dressing up!)  I love make-up & loved (awhile back) being slim, sexy & attracting men.

I have never felt I was "in the wrong body."  I am completely comfortable as a female.  I have been physically attracted to the beauty of some women but never sexually attracted to a woman.  And very, very rarely emotionally.

SO, where the hell do I fit?  Like you said David, so many shades...

EDIT - Should have said, I love WATCHING sports - must be because I get to look at men!  Actually, I enjoy the sport but do watch only men playing... HMMMMMMM.

I think that makes you tomboy not a lesbian. I have two lesbian friends that are very very femenine. And they're always pestering me because I hate wearing lipstick.

My sister is exactly like you. She hates talking about babies, pink stuff, wearing make up or dresses. As a kid she used to get into fist fight with other boys and sometimes beat the shit out of them. Her career choice is also male occupation. She's not gay.

I'm more femenine than she is but like you when I was a kid I thought girls were boring and  boys got to do all the great, exciting things. But I also loved playing with dolls, and had huge fights with my brother because he used to destroy them all!

[delalluvia]

I have a little bit different take on this topic - or maybe I'm going totally off topic. 

I'd never thought anyone would consider me gay cause I am not.  I think people may be wondering now because of my obsession w/ Brokeback Mtn & my recent trip to SF to meet everyone.  That matters not at all to me.

But, being straight in a mindset that is not typical of your sex is a different thing.  When I was a very little girl, I wanted to be a cowBOY (got pictures to prove it).  If I was dressed in a dress, I put pants on under it.  I have ALWAYS wanted to be with the boys playing - not the girls.  I thought girls were boring & boys got to do all the great, exciting things in life like tramping through the woods & catching snakes (which scare me now.  I did love playing w/ dolls tho')  In band, I played trumpet (1st chair).

My career choice was a decidedly male occupation, one that women were just breaking into & carried a lot of controversy with it.  Consequently I was primarily around men and loved it - felt perfectly at home & comfortable with them.  (I had been a typist/secretary for a short period of time & simply did not/could not bond with any of the women.  In fact I have not bonded with women in general).

I LOVE men.  I'd still rather be with men at any given time.  I love everything about them.  Their faces, their bodies, their way of bonding, the way I never feel there is some underlying fakeness to them.  The latter implies I think women are fake.  This is my problem.   I remember always thinking that women were not being true to themselves when they spoke - probably because my opinions, interests, etc were so different.  Now I think it is simply me.

I love sports, I hate talking about babies.  I wanted to play the drums.  I never wear a dress unless it is formal (and then I love dressing up!)  I love make-up & loved (awhile back) being slim, sexy & attracting men.

I'm with you silk.  I was raised with a male cousin and got to love doing 'guy' things as a child.  Never liked playing with dolls, when I was a child I wanted to be a cowboy, then an astronaut.  I always liked being around guys because they were allowed to do all the fun things that girls were not.

I played flute in band only because my first choice - French horn - was vetoed by my parents as needing a 'big' - meaning guy - person to play it.  Turns out that flute players use more 'air' than any players.

I graduated college in a 'traditionally' male field and never really bonded with any of the femalies at my place of employment as I was not interested much in marriage or children.  I drive a 4X4 that I can work on myself, do home repairs, etc.

I do have some female friends but we keep each other at arms length, as I'm not willing to always be 'understanding'.  My girlfriends have come to me for comfort and reassurance and eventually get offended when I suggest resolutions to their problems and finally lose patience with them.  I'm not much of a commiserating person.  You got a problem?  Here's a solution.  You don't want to take the solution, then put up and shut up about it.  I don't want to hear constant whining about a problem they have no interest in resolving.  Life's too short to put up with constant complainers.

Guess I'm not too 'womanly' there. 

And while I find women attractive and can see the sexual interest, I've no real interest in pursuing females like I do men.

But since I LOOK very womanly, keep myself attractive, wear spike heels, short skirts, long hair, makeup etc., I'm expected to ACT womanly like 'society' expects and have dismayed many (including my parents) when I have not.

[shrugs]

You gotta be who you are.

[ednbarby]

LJ, it's almost frightening how much we have in common. 

Like you, when I was little I wanted to be a boy.  I grew up with two older brothers who essentially raised me once my Mom got to drinking.  And they did that with no help from a father figure - he was long gone.  One of my brothers taught me how to play basketball and to ice skate, the other taught me how to tie my shoelaces and ride a bike.  I climbed trees like a monkey, just like them.  And I hated wearing dresses and skirts - still do.  When I watched Westerns, I wanted to be the cowboys, too, and definitely *not* the women in their long dresses in the saloons.  I didn't even want to be Annie Oakley - I wanted to be Billy the Kid or Jesse James.

And I love hanging out with men.  I grew up hanging out with my older brothers and their friends.  They always treated me like an equal, and not like someone's "little sister."  My first crush, in fact, was one of my brothers' best friends.  It wasn't a sexual thing - I was eight or nine and he was fifteen.  I just liked hanging out with him and talking to him about music and movies we liked.  It was strange when my brothers started having girlfriends.  I had no idea how to act around them.  They were always very nice, but they wanted to put make-up on me or help me paint my nails, and I just wasn't into any of that.

To this day, I feel very comfortable in the company of men.  I'd rather be in a room full of them than a room full of women any day.  Partly because I love the way they look and sound and smell, but mostly because I just feel like I belong amongst them.  And like you, too, I love watching sports.  Especially hockey (and I must say these Oilers and Hurricanes are driving me crazy - they all look like a bunch of Jake clones skating around) and pro football.  My brothers and father taught me all the rules of both, so I know more than most women and some men about both of them.  Baseball is fun, too, but a little too slow for my taste.  And I'd rather play basketball than watch it, but I do enjoy that when it's on - especially college - too.

Of course misogynistic men piss me off - I grew up feeling equal to boys and men, and so when one treats me as subservient in any way, it just leaves me reeling.  There are some in every crowd, but fortunately these days it's no longer socially acceptable to be obviously chauvenistic.

[ednbarby]

I do have some female friends but we keep each other at arms length, as I'm not willing to always be 'understanding'.  My girlfriends have come to me for comfort and reassurance and eventually get offended when I suggest resolutions to their problems and finally lose patience with them.  I'm not much of a commiserating person.  You got a problem?  Here's a solution.  You don't want to take the solution, then put up and shut up about it.  I don't want to hear constant whining about a problem they have no interest in resolving.  Life's too short to put up with constant complainers.

Oh, my, Del.  You and I were cut from the same cloth as well, it would seem.  I cannot stand professional victims, as I call them.  The few woman friends I've been able to keep over the long term are either just like me in this way, or actually appreciate my suggestions (which I only give when asked for - honest!), put them to use, and come back for more.  I do have one woman friend who is never satisfied - it's like she keeps looking for that one thing that will finally "make" her happy.  I keep telling her it isn't a destination - it's a mode of travel.  I don't know - maybe my profoundly screwed up childhood has just helped me better appreciate how really easy life can be if you just let it be.  But I know that's much easier said than done for a lot of folks.

[opinionista]

I cannot stand professional victims, as I call them.

LOL. I have a friend, a male friend who's a professional victim! I like the term. I'm going to tell him that. I stand him because otherwise he's sweet but sometimes I get sick of his constant whining.

[dmmb_Mandy]

I grew up with two older brothers who essentially raised me once my Mom got to drinking.  And they did that with no help from a father figure - he was long gone.  One of my brothers taught me how to play basketball and to ice skate, the other taught me how to tie my shoelaces and ride a bike.  I climbed trees like a monkey, just like them.  And I hated wearing dresses and skirts - still do.  When I watched Westerns, I wanted to be the cowboys, too, and definitely *not* the women in their long dresses in the saloons.  I didn't even want to be Annie Oakley - I wanted to be Billy the Kid or Jesse James.

Barb, I know exactly what you mean. I grew up with 3 older brothers so I was the baby and the only girl, and my childhood was anything but girly. We played baseball, fished, played hide-and-seek and spotlight and laughed at those little girls at school in funny, little poofy dresses. When I fell, I had to take a deep breath and just shake it off. Men were my life. Oh, and I always wanted to be Batman.

[silkncense]

I think that makes you tomboy not a lesbian.

I have never wondered if I were a lesbian.  Funny tho' I don't think of myself as a tomboy either.  I think it's simply my mind is more hardwired masculine.  

This has made it very difficult for me to maintain friendships w/ other women & outside of the work environment most men at this age are w/ their families.  

You gotta be who you are.

Agreed.  It's just one of those interesting challenges in personal relationships.

Barb & Del - Glad to know ya!

[cmr107]

When I was little I wanted to be just like my big brother. He played hockey, so I liked hockey, went to all his games, watched games with him on TV. He sort of liked video games, so I would play with him (and I liked it). I loved all the superhero movies and shows that he watched. Like someone else said (Barb I think?), my first crush was one of his friends. All my cousins (except one that I have met twice because she lives in California) are male also.

What's interesting to me is that a lot of the women who have posted here about being tomboys or whatever is that they mostly seem to prefer the company of men. I love men, but my closest friends have always been girls.

I guess it is easier for women. I like being female, but I'm sooo not girly. I wear jeans and T shirts everyday, hate wearing skirts and dresses, don't like shopping. I do wear makeup, but only the teensiest amount possible. One of my very favorite things is volunteering at Habitat for Humanity in the summers, working with tools (I LOVE power tools!) and getting all dirty. One of the things I hate most is when a man comes over to try to help me when I don't need it. I work in the scene shop of our theatre on campus, mostly building sets, again using tools. I was first chair trumpet in band too, LJ! I have had many conversations with friends about which women we find attractive, both famous women or people we know. No one has ever said I was a lesbian. I think it's stupid that women are allowed to not conform to the traditional female stereotype, but men must conform to the stereotype or they are automatically gay. We should all just be able to be who we are without concern for what other people think. David, I can see how that would get annoying after so many years, but don't change who you are just for them.

[nakymaton]

You know those gazillion on-line quizzes that you can take? Well, apparently there was one making the rounds about "are you gay" -- and all the questions had to do with things like "do you know the names of more than six colors?" My husband ran across it on a message board that he reads, and read me some of the questions. And, you know, I thought the characteristics that got a guy labeled as gay were pretty appealing.

None of the questions asked whether you were attracted to other men or anything like that.

And the quiz bothers me for a couple reasons. First, there's an underlying homophobia... because, OMG, you wouldn't want to be gay or anything.  And second, because it tries to enforce a ridiculously limited stereotype of what it means to be a straight man. (I mean, according to the quiz, straight men don't exercise after age 35. Or know "ROY G. BIV". Or... well, I don't remember the entire list, but I think that being a moderately pleasant human being meant that you couldn't possibly be straight. Which, if it were true, would really really suck for straight women.)

(Fortunately for me, my husband tested as "obviously gay." Which is good, because I think he's a generally pleasant human being, and I wouldn't want to discover that he's secretly a jerk.)

cmr107 -- you're right. The rules for what women can like or be interested in are much looser than they are for men. (Though they've loosened considerably in my lifetime -- when I was a little girl, I was told to wear a dress to be "lady-like," and told that girls couldn't become astronauts or do math. People still make assumptions about what I'm capable of, but the roles for women are not nearly as rigid as they used to be.) It's too bad that men don't have that kind of freedom. Because I think that, no matter what kinds of biological differences there may be between men and women, there's a lot more natural variation in interests and behaviors than the stereotypes acknowledge. And it would be nice if people could be who they are, rather than the stereotypes they are expected to be.

[ednbarby]

Oh, and I always wanted to be Batman.

I always wanted to be Spiderman.

(Batman is the badass, though.   )

[dmmb_Mandy]

As a child I liked Batman, now as an *adult* I prefer Spiderman. Weird. 

[silkncense]

I'm not sure I got my point across.  It's not really what I like or don't like - maybe the examples were misleading.  This was truly my point:

I think it's simply my mind is more hardwired masculine.

I virtually never feel I am 'on the same page' w/ women.  Someone somewhere on a thread asked, "What do women think?" - that could've been me.  It's a matter of who I relate to.

And I'd rather be Lara Croft!

[ednbarby]

I'm not sure I got my point across.  It's not really what I like or don't like - maybe the examples were misleading.  This was truly my point:
 
I virtually never feel I am 'on the same page' w/ women.  Someone somewhere on a thread asked, "What do women think?" - that could've been me.  It's a matter of who I relate to.

And I'd rather be Lara Croft!

I'm with you 100% on this one.  I don't "get" other women.  I think I'd have a very difficult time writing a female character, but I have no trouble writing male ones (all in my head, mind you - I haven't dove into the fanfic pool just yet).  I imagine I'd be very much like Diana Ossana in that way - I'd want to write all the male characters' dialogue.  I think I just understand the rhythm of men - how they think, how they put into words what they think.  It's easy, really - there's nothing false about any of it.  In the rare case when a man is false, it bothers me much more than when a woman is I think because I don't expect it - it seems foreign.  Ed and I laugh all the time about the basic male thought pattern as being "Sex, sex, food, sex, sleep, sex, work out, sex, sex, work, sex, sex, sex, sex ..."  Whereas a woman's is - hell, I don't know what a woman's is because I think like a man.  I remember when Ed and I watched "As Good As It Gets" and the woman asked the Jack Nicholson character how he writes women so well, and he says, "I think of a man.  Then I take away reason and accountability."  We both laughed *way* too hard at that one.  It's not that I'm misogynistic - I love my woman friends.  Fiercely, in fact.  But I honestly wouldn't know what to do with a little girl had I had one instead of a little boy.  Unless she was boyish like I was.  But if she was a girly-girl who wanted to have her hair pulled back in all kinds of intricate ways and to wear frilly dresses and have a doll collection, I'd be at a total loss.

[opinionista]

I'm with you 100% on this one.  I don't "get" other women.  I think I'd have a very difficult time writing a female character, but I have no trouble writing male ones (all in my head, mind you - I haven't dove into the fanfic pool just yet).  I imagine I'd be very much like Diana Ossana in that way - I'd want to write all the male characters' dialogue.  I think I just understand the rhythm of men - how they think, how they put into words what they think.  It's easy, really - there's nothing false about any of it.  In the rare case when a man is false, it bothers me much more than when a woman is I think because I don't expect it - it seems foreign.  Ed and I laugh all the time about the basic male thought pattern as being "Sex, sex, food, sex, sleep, sex, work out, sex, sex, work, sex, sex, sex, sex ..."  Whereas a woman's is - hell, I don't know what a woman's is because I think like a man.  I remember when Ed and I watched "As Good As It Gets" and the woman asked the Jack Nicholson character how he writes women so well, and he says, "I think of a man.  Then I take away reason and accountability."  We both laughed *way* too hard at that one.  It's not that I'm misogynistic - I love my woman friends.  Fiercely, in fact.  But I honestly wouldn't know what to do with a little girl had I had one instead of a little boy.  Unless she was boyish like I was.  But if she was a girly-girl who wanted to have her hair pulled back in all kinds of intricate ways and to wear frilly dresses and have a doll collection, I'd be at a total loss.

Maybe you could try focusing on yourself as a woman, and create a character from your own experience and perceptions. Scout Finch from To Kill a Mockingbird is boyish girl, and I bet so was Harper Lee. She probably created her from her own experiences.

[ednbarby]

Maybe you could try focusing on yourself as a woman, and create a character from your own experience and perceptions. Scout Finch from To Kill a Mockingbird is boyish girl, and I bet so was Harper Lee. She probably created her from her own experiences.

Yep.  That's totally what I'd have to do.  When I think of all the female characters I've admired over the years, they've always been the more masculine ones, or ones possessing more traditionally masculine qualities than feminine ones.  Scout is certainly one of them.  And Jane Eyre.  And Ellen Foster (the young girl in the book of the same name).  And Offred in The Handmaid's Tale.  And pretty much every character Hilary Swank ever played.

[twistedude]

Guess I'm still straight...but straight WHAT?