At what moment in BBM did you realize that they were falling in love?

[brokeplex]

But is that love?? Or just sex?? Or is attraction part of love?? Is flirting love here too?? Etc.?


Brokeplex, Ennis might deny love in some ways, but in other ways, he does not seem to do so. Right away at the first sight of Jack loooooking at him, makes him wake up to adventure??


 

No, Ennis did not "wake up to love" upon seeing Jack. He disovered that in his isolation he had an interest in Jack as a person, then later saw Jack as a convenient sexual outlet, and later still  he began to feel affection and a highly sublimated type of love for Jack. That all said, I believe that it was not until 20 years later, when he was in the closet at OMT's house holding the two shirts that he finally admitted and accepted to himself that he loved Jack. Hence the tragedy of the short story and the movie.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

Glad that you detail that!!

But (excuse my butt),  may I ask isn't excitement, like infatuation, even sex, part of love??
Ennis did look back at Jack since Jack was looking at him... continuously?? First time at that trailer in order to get a job.
That in the movie!
Hugs!

[Brown Eyes]

No, Ennis did not "wake up to love" upon seeing Jack. He disovered that in his isolation he had an interest in Jack as a person, then later saw Jack as a convenient sexual outlet, and later still  he began to feel affection and a highly sublimated type of love for Jack. That all said, I believe that it was not until 20 years later, when he was in the closet at OMT's house holding the two shirts that he finally admitted and accepted to himself that he loved Jack. Hence the tragedy of the short story and the movie.

I still believe that Ennis was aware that he was in love with Jack earlier than the closet scene at the end.  He may not have been able to put a word to his feelings articulately as early as the '63 summer.  But, I think he was aware of a profound emotion that had everything to do with his feelings for Jack.  Early on he may have been deeply invested in a type of denial that may have prevented him from explicitly thinking about the term "love."  But, I still think that as early as TS2 he was aware of the emotion (un-named or not).  And, I think he really feels the effects of this as something that will impact the rest of his life as soon as he sees Jack dismantling the tent.  He immediately sits on the log and pouts... leading to his quite moment sitting alone in the grass and then the unhappy-tussle... the dry-heaves in the alley, etc.  All of these things seem to point to a strong emotion related to his uneasiness separating from Jack.

I think the word "love" only really comes into play as an articulate term at the end... spurred by conversations with Cassie, the experience at Lightning Flat, the last conversation with Alma Jr., etc.

In terms of the when did they fall in love question... I think there's a distinction to be made about when the emotion seemed to start happening (mutually) and when the word becomes articulate.

[brokeplex]

This is the great thing about great works of art : whether cinematic, painterly, or works of literature, we can interpret aspects of the work in as many different ways as our imagination allows us to journey. Some see tomatoes, others see beach balls. 

[Artiste]

Thanks atz75, and thanks brokeplex!!

Atz75, may I answer brokeplex first... and reply to you later (remind me please).  Since I feel that he is lighthearted here. Because it is hard for me to think right now, being back from the dentist who took finally out my big tooth!

Brokeplex, you say: This is the great thing about great works of art : whether cinematic, painterly, or works of literature, we can interpret aspects of the work in as many different ways as our imagination allows us to journey. Some see tomatoes, others see beach balls.   
 

Yes, that is important! And somehting else is more so!
You make my day! And you made me smile too! Plus laugh! I am delighted with your reply.

However, may I ask you and add that, since I am an artist painter, that I create images on canvas, not only for colour (as you say different ways the imagination of the spectator make think, take or do, as I mainly know that there is thruth there as the composition has it!! I do not know how else to say that, you understand?, and others here reading understand maybe too my meaning??

To continue about that: thruth! Yes, it is a journey, but there is also thruth that routes of journeys can find it (that thruth!! Only then, there is freedom; otherwise, only keeping on being somewhat lost by routes of a journey or journeys!! I will give you a concrete example (of my personal life) if you ask.

To me, it is obvious, that Jack is attracted immediately at his first sight of Ennis, and Ennis is stirred too as a result!!
That is in the movie, and, therefore, the producers (writers of the script) and/or Lee makes this clear right away, as an potential love story (Jack) with drama (Ennis) too; yes, Jack is the love, but Ennis is the drama!! But was that the two main actors (Jake and Heath) ideas of doing that?

To you, is the book the same?? As such attraction? Did even Annie qualify it that way immediately as in the movie?

Hugs!!

[Artiste]

Thanks atz75!

You say this: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: brokeplex on Yesterday at 10:02:59 AM
No, Ennis did not "wake up to love" upon seeing Jack. He disovered that in his isolation he had an interest in Jack as a person, then later saw Jack as a convenient sexual outlet, and later still  he began to feel affection and a highly sublimated type of love for Jack. That all said, I believe that it was not until 20 years later, when he was in the closet at OMT's house holding the two shirts that he finally admitted and accepted to himself that he loved Jack. Hence the tragedy of the short story and the movie.


I still believe that Ennis was aware that he was in love with Jack earlier than the closet scene at the end.  He may not have been able to put a word to his feelings articulately as early as the '63 summer.  But, I think he was aware of a profound emotion that had everything to do with his feelings for Jack.  Early on he may have been deeply invested in a type of denial that may have prevented him from explicitly thinking about the term "love."  But, I still think that as early as TS2 he was aware of the emotion (un-named or not).  And, I think he really feels the effects of this as something that will impact the rest of his life as soon as he sees Jack dismantling the tent.  He immediately sits on the log and pouts... leading to his quite moment sitting alone in the grass and then the unhappy-tussle... the dry-heaves in the alley, etc.  All of these things seem to point to a strong emotion related to his uneasiness separating from Jack.

I think the word "love" only really comes into play as an articulate term at the end... spurred by conversations with Cassie, the experience at Lightning Flat, the last conversation with Alma Jr., etc.

In terms of the when did they fall in love question... I think there's a distinction to be made about when the emotion seemed to start happening (mutually) and when the word becomes articulate.

..............

May I agree with you. And think that even love's arrow starts right away in the movie since Jack has an eye and presents it right away to Ennis, who does respond!!

What is: the dry-heaves in the alley? I am lost. Please explain. Give me concrete example(s).

Hugs!!

[serious crayons]

What is: the dry-heaves in the alley? I am lost. Please explain. Give me concrete example(s).

Artiste, that refers to the scene at the end of the Brokeback summer when, after Jack and Ennis part in Signal, Ennis walks away and then goes into the alley and retches, cries and beats the wall. "Dry heaves" is retching without expelling actual vomit.

[Artiste]

Thanks ineedcrayons!

You sure are clear. I am grateful to you doing so!

You say this: Artiste, that refers to the scene at the end of the Brokeback summer when, after Jack and Ennis part in Signal, Ennis walks away and then goes into the alley and retches, cries and beats the wall. "Dry heaves" is retching without expelling actual vomit.



....................

Ineedcrayons, to me, that is quite significant of an act, in the movie! You think so too and why? Is it too in the book?

Is this act of retching, one of Ennis' thought or sub-conscience; or one since he wanted to continue to love and be with Jack, there and then after coming down from the mountain with the sheep?

Is this retching an act which shows that both Ennis and Jack are indeed in love?? At that moment both Ennis and Jack know that they are indeed in real love thoughts?? (Does someone realize that as that as their first fall in love act consciously??

Hugs!!

[moremojo]

Actually, on my first viewing, I saw the retching as indicative of Ennis's inner torment about what he had done on the mountain; that is to say, I thought it illustrated his deep self-loathing for having had sexual relations with another man. I saw the film before I had read the story in any depth (had only scanned it in the bookstore), and had no knowledge of story-Ennis coming to understand the retching himself as a sign that he "should never have let [Jack] out of [his] sight". The quiet sobs that we hear from movie-Ennis after the retching also seem to suggest the pangs of heartbreak. It is certainly possible that the scene conveys a multiplicity of meanings (and can certainly be interpreted in more than one way).

[serious crayons]

The quiet sobs that we hear from movie-Ennis after the retching also seem to suggest the pangs of heartbreak. It is certainly possible that the scene conveys a multiplicity of meanings (and can certainly be interpreted in more than one way).

Well put, Scott. Like so much in the movie, the scene is very ambiguous and is open to multiple interpretations. Personally, I'm more in the heartbreak camp than the self-loathing camp. But there might be a touch of inner torment, as well.

Well, more than a touch, I guess. Inner torment is pretty much Ennis' middle name!