Got What They Deserved?

[moviegoer]

I was talking with a friend of mine today, who also saw & loved BBM, and we were talking about someone’s blog that he’d read online.  In doing so, the blog topic & our conversation stuck in my mind and I’m curious to what others here think about it.

Basically, the gist of the blog stated that BBM was not a positive movie.  Not, 'not good'.  Simply, 'not positive'.  Not quite seeing the distinction, my friend continued to illustrate his (or rather the blogger’s) point.  It wasn’t just because of the incredibly sad ending that made the movie “unpositive”, but rather why the movie had a sad ending. 

The blog went on to say that being gay, Jack & Ennis got exactly what they deserved.  Gays should be killed, if not ostracized and filled with a lifetime of loneliness & despair.  The bloggers orientation wasn't mentioned (or known, for all I know), but I have a suspicion which camp the blogger lives in.

After I pushed the bile back down my throat and my dander was lowered, I thought about the blogger's point objectively.  After all, he (or she) is entitled to their opinion.  And far be it for me to pass judgment without being fair...  Yes, the movie could be viewed as a clear reason why homosexuality is wrong, if one was to be so inclined to think this way.  However, it wasn’t how I came away from the movie thinking.  At first...

When I started to think about it, I could begin to see how BBM could shed a negative, disparaging light on gays.  True, I can’t control how people think; close-minded people will think how they want.  But if I, a gay man, can come away thinking BBM might be harmful to the gay community, how are many (not all) straight people going to feel?  I've read posts from straight men & women who loved this movie; others who venomously detested it.  So, does BBM project gays (and to a point, gay love) in a good light or a bad one?  If someone were anti-gay, they might cheer, “Awesome!  The faggots got what they deserved!", epitomized in Jack's death & and Ennis' despair.  And even if they were pro-gay, they might say, “Once again, a movie that makes gays look “bad”.” emphasized in all the shattered lives and the gut-wrenching, unhappy ending.  So, I wonder if there is a presiding opinion and/or stance on this, or is it (just like the movie’s intentional, ambiguous scenes) left up to the one’s own viewpoint?  Or is it simply, people will think what they want?

Admittedly, I haven’t watched BBM a second time yet.  I still have an all too-fresh of an ow-ie on my heart & soul from my first viewing.  Oh, I will watch it again, and again, and then again for good measure.  And I will ride the emotional rollercoaster afterwards, just like I am now.  But I am one of countless who loved what I believe this movie meant to convey; Love.  I sincerely believe there are so many lessons people can learn from the characters here (especially from Ennis).  And while I disagree 100% with the blogger's comments, the impact of what my friend shared has hit a nerve of sorts with me.  So, it's making me think (be warned! )

Thoughts?

[Front-Ranger]

People who have preconceived notions will see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear. THey will twist around everything to match their own point of view. I don't know why you would let a blog that you didn't even see--you say your friend saw it--and where you don't even know the author or whether he/she even saw the movie before commenting, to have any sort of influence on what you decide the movie stands for in your own mind.

If people are entitled to their own opinion, then you are certainly entitled to yours. If you don't think you should pass judgement, then why is it okay for the blogger to pass judgement and publish/disseminate hate language??

No the movie does not show that homosexuality is wrong. It shows why homophobia is wrong. If there was no homophobia, Ennis and Jack could have had a sweet life together and no one's life would be "shattered" (I beg to differ anyway about how Alma and Lureen's lives were shattered. Were they any worse off than Mrs. Twist, who was married to a heterosexual stud duck for many eons??).

I can not think of any way that this movie could be harmful to the gay community. It has been quite the opposite. When you see this movie, you don't wonder how this gay person is being portrayed. You just think about similar experiences you've had and what it's like to fall in love with someone, the experience of love. That is, as long as you don't have a preconceived agenda that you want the movie to advance. There is no definitive position or statement that can be drawn from this movie. Each person has to make up their own mind. I look forward to your comments after you have seen the movie several more times or have read the story.

[SFEnnisSF]

The first time I saw BBM, I felt it was a little negative.     I'll admit it.  I of course had a wide range of emotions stirred up though too.  But one of them was that I felt that this move said 'If you are gay, you will end up alone and sad."  I remember running around to everybody telling them this and how 'disappointed' I was.  

But that was just it.  I was 'disappointed' because I wanted them to ride off into the sunset.  I wanted them to be happy, and have a happy ending.  I had built it up in aticipation of the movie being released, and I let myself down.  This was not what the movie was about.  It's a tragedy.  And it tells ONE story about a time when many gay men 'did' end up alone and lonely.  To this day, many still do.  But so do some straight people....  Ahh-hah!  Here's the first 'cross-over' theme to come up that also breaks the stereotypes...

After going back the next day (and watching it twice), and then finding IMDB and such and discussing the movie, I came to terms with what the movie is and what it's messages are.  I am hopelessly in love with BBM, and I do think it does have to do with the wide range of emotions I experienced with it.

I read once that 'What you take to BBM, is what you get out of it".  So unfortunately, Yeah I can see someone coming away from the movie with negative thoughts like the blog mentions, if that's what they went in looking for.  However, I truly feel that those are first-reaction feelings.  Perhaps in a week, a few years, etc, the person who wrote those comments I think might change their mind about what they said.  Once they think about the movie a little bit more.  Or maybe after they experience some of the emotions and themes presented in BBM themselves.  (love, loss, regret, etc.)  

I actually have a feeling that A LOT of people who were quick to put the movie down and such, in a few years will end up feeling very bad for saying the things that they did.  Once they come out of the closet, or they themselves experience some of the themes in BBM, such as a love they cannot describe and/or cannot have, lose someone they love, or experience any of the other emotional themes in the movie....I think they'll remember this movie, and suddenly 'get it'.  And yes they'll feel ashamed.  But life is always a learning experience....

So, IMO, let 'em post all the negative things they want.  #1 it makes people see the real ugly side of homophobia, and respect this movie more.  #2 the folks who post all this negative stuff will eventually be ashamed of posting it in the end.  And the guilt will be on themselves...

Imagine the day when it'll be ok for a man to say 'my partner..' or 'my husband...', and no one will even bat an eye or have a second thought.  Gays will be accepted and respected and it won't even be an issue.  When that day comes, it's films like BBM that will be remembered for the story and themes it told, in a time when unfortunately it still is an issue.  And hopefully it will be remembered as one of the 'groudbreaking' films/events/things that helped stamp all that homophobia out.  Stupid Bush trying to pass that Marriage ban.  Boy are historians and future generations going to look back on all this and just laugh at them.  Or even more seriously, realize they were no different from Hitler.

  

[Jeff Wrangler]

Tell you what, this thread seems like a "safe" place to admit that at some level I've always been troubled that the story of Ennis and Jack can be seen as "not positive." This applies to both the original Annie Proulx story and the film. There is a long, unfortunate "literary tradition" that equates being gay with having a tragic life or dying a tragic death. Considering that Jack ends up dead, and Ennis ends up alone and isolated on the verge of middle age, their story falls squarely within that tradition. In this sense, the story is "not positive."

To its great credit at least, at least Brokeback Mountain does not make the tragedy intrinsic to being gay. It shows that the tragedy comes from without, because of how difficult it is to be the person you truly are in a homophobic social environment.

Yup, I'd like them to ride off into the sunset together, too. Maybe that's why I ended up writing Alternative Universe fanfiction, transporting Ennis and Jack to a place where they can have that sweet life together.

[fontaine]

Personally, I think Brokeback transcends sexuality. I even think it transcends love. To me, it's a morality tale about what life becomes if one doesn't follow the "whispers of one's heart." (That's the title of an excellent book by a friend of mine, BTW.) It doesn't matter WHAT one's heart is whispering, it's a matter of behaving authentically in terms of your own unique personhood.

In the case of Brokeback, the content through which this universal theme was conveyed was two cowboys in the 60s who fell in love and were unable--mostly for internal reasons--to act on it. If handled as deftly as this particular story was, it could have been any other situation where people have to confront their personal demons.

The only question in my mind is whether tragedies, as Plato described, have more "power" to affect people than happy endings do. Is there as much to learn if everything works out? In that case, the movie isn't likely to move inside you so that you can finish the lesson it begins to tell.

[ednbarby]

Imagine the day when it'll be ok for a man to say 'my partner..' or 'my husband...', and no one will even bat an eye or have a second thought.  Gays will be accepted and respected and it won't even be an issue.  When that day comes, it's films like BBM that will be remembered for the story and themes it told, in a time when unfortunately it still is an issue.  And hopefully it will be remembered as one of the 'groudbreaking' films/events/things that helped stamp all that homophobia out.  Stupid Bush trying to pass that Marriage ban.  Boy are historians and future generations going to look back on all this and just laugh at them.  Or even more seriously, realize they were no different from Hitler.

I agree.

And I don't look at BBM as saying it's inherently negative to be gay any more than I look at Romeo & Juliet as saying it's inherently negative to be young and straight and passionately in love.  Like Jeff says, the movie shows that the judgment, and ultimately the tragedy, came down from society much moreso than the protagonists themselves, just as in R&J.  Ennis' (and Romeo's and Juliet's) fears were created, and then fostered, by that society.

I know I'm a straight woman coming at this from a different perspective, so I certainly understand it when gay men see it as being negative towards gay men, though.

[David]

Jack ends up dead, and Ennis ends up alone and isolated on the verge of middle age, their story falls squarely within that tradition. In this sense, the story is "not positive."

Jeff,  so many gay guys I have asked if they saw BBM have winced at the question.  They say:"Ooo  that was not the great happy film I thought it would be."  And they quickly change the subject.   

[David]

The blog went on to say that being gay, Jack & Ennis got exactly what they deserved.  Gays should be killed, if not ostracized and filled with a lifetime of loneliness & despair.  The bloggers orientation wasn't mentioned (or known, for all I know), but I have a suspicion which camp the blogger lives in.

Sounds like this person had a bad experience with a gay man or woman.    As Ennis said:"Once burned?"   

I can see how a husband or wife who looses their spouse to a gay lover could be angry enough to make such statements.   Or perhaps a person brought up in a household full of bigotry and hatred.  The kind of trash the so-called Reverend Fred Phelps spews.

I have always said, the straight world needs to be exposed to positive gay role models to see that we are all not husband stealing child molesters.   

[Jeff Wrangler]

Jeff,  so many gay guys I have asked if they saw BBM have winced at the question.  They say:"Ooo  that was not the great happy film I thought it would be."  And they quickly change the subject.   

Tell you what, that response is almost an argument for reading the story before you see the movie. At least, then, you're prepared for what happens in terms of the plot. I knew how the story was going to end, yet the power of the film still knocked me onto the seat of my pants.

Sorry, didn't mean to go OT.

[SFEnnisSF]

Tell you what, that response is almost an argument for reading the story before you see the movie. At least, then, you're prepared for what happens in terms of the plot. I knew how the story was going to end, yet the power of the film still knocked me onto the seat of my pants.

Sorry, didn't mean to go OT.

It's not OT.  I saw the movie first, and I'm thinking my first initial reaction would have been way different if I had read the short story first.