Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll

[David]

On the other hand, maybe he has a need to really talk about some of this stuff and the only person he has to talk with is Ellery. He knows Ellery trusts and likes Dupree and Ennis likes Dupree so the trust is there too? Still, Ennis is soooo private....

L

Well,  Ennis has had no friends really.   Jack was not just his lover, he was his only friend.   And even then they didn't tell eachother everything!   Ellery is his lover and friend too.  But a man (and woman) needs a close friend.   Because to be emotionally stable, I think we all need someone to talk to other than our partner/spouse.     

So this is a sign of emotional growth for Ennis to open up to Dupree.   Or perhaps Ennis's common sense is being clouded by Duprees good looks and nice ass?   

Still, most Straight men are "Alpha Males".  Meaning they never want to look less dominant than their peers.   And for Dupree to hear that his Boss is submissive is a bad thing.   Although it does open the door for all kinda of drama.   And maybe that was Louisev's idea?   

[MaineWriter]

Still, most Straight men are "Alpha Males".  Meaning they never want to look less dominant than their peers.   And for Dupree to hear that his Boss is submissive is a bad thing.   

Do you think Dupree reallly understands what that means? I am asking this seriously. Is this something that is common knowledge among men, in general, or knowledge that is learned as one becomes more familiar with sexual practices among homosexuals? I am thinking back to the old days on IMDb and the types of questions that were asked there...that led me to believe that the vast majority of people were clueless about these issues and I don't think it was just women who were doing the asking.

L

[LoveEmBoys]

So this is a sign of emotional growth for Ennis to open up to Dupree.   Or perhaps Ennis's common sense is being clouded by Duprees good looks and nice ass?   ....

Still, most Straight men are "Alpha Males"...  

David and Leslie, I agree it surprised me that Ennis opened up to Dupree -- though the fact he did so in a round-a-bout manner was fabulous.  But I think Ennis IS comfortable with Dupree precisely because he's straight.  Ennis is probably still more comfortable with straight men than queers -- I think Ennis thinks of himself as one of those "Alpha Males", though maybe not in exactly the way you used the term David.  The fact that Durpree is not just open minded but actively trying to find out more about queers makes him a uniquely qualified confident for Ennis.

But I also think Ennis has enough of a read of Dupree to know that he wouldn't misuse that information against Ellery.  Certainly it is a risk, but that would be surprising given how their relationship has developed.

Louise -- will thou never rest?   Just when the plot lines seem to be converging, you just got to blow something wide open again, huh?  Kudos, ma'am, for keeping us spell bound!

Monica

[LoveEmBoys]

Do you think Dupree reallly understands what that means?

L

Leslie, I certainly didn't know about the sexual politics of tops and bottoms before joining the BBM forums -- though my husband alluded to it when I broached the topic with him.  I was frankly surprised that Dupree asked the question in the first place.  But since he did, I presume he is aware of the political ramifications.

Monica

[David]

Leslie,   oh yeah!   Trust me!  Straight men are more pre-occupied with the concept of what goes on between two men than you'd think!     It is all about "who" is the man vs. the woman in the situation.      They love the jokes about "dropping the soap" in the shower and who gets to be a prison bride or "bitch" in jail.    I've seen it in my mechanics at work.  One will ask the other to pick up a dropped tool and pass it to them, and the other will refuse saying :"No way, then people will think I'm your bitch".  Then they all laugh.   

Straight guys get really confused when they meet masculine gay guys.  Because they don't know if he is dominant and a threat.    I had a kid working with me who was very homophobic.   He wears a swim suit in the shower at the gym even.   I asked him what his worst fear was.  He said that some guy would jump him.    I explained that not all gay guys even participate in anal sex and that those who do, 70%  want you to jump them!   not the other way around!    He was amazed and relieved.  I think he felt more at ease after that.

[LoveEmBoys]

I explained that not all gay guys even participate in anal sex and that those who do, 70%  want you to jump them!   not the other way around!    He was amazed and relieved.  I think he felt more at ease after that.

LOL  Great response David!  It still staggers me the level of incomprehension there is about homosexuality -- I mean I know I was naieve not too long ago, but at least I was neutral about it.  Sad all the fear and hatred when there is no cause for it.

M

[Lumière]

Interesting discussions all

I didnt get to that chapter yet...Gotta wait till I get home to read it.

I notice that Ennis is building a very comfortable relationship with Dupree and I have no doubt that the fact that Dupree identifies as a straight man is making it easier for Ennis.  Firstly because Dupree won't be trying to hit on him or his man, and secondly because Dupree is this masculine figure who is not at all like the fem boys Ennis loves to despise   I am just thrilled that Ennis has another friend aside from Ellery and Wes&Edna.  It gets tricky 'cause Ennis' lover is Dupree's boss ...


Edit to add:
I was typing this message and my boss came in and called me for a meeting, so I had to post what I had so far..lol!  

Anyway,  I agree that it may be abit out of character for Ennis to discuss his sex life with Dupree (especially since Ennis is usually very touchy about his private life).  On the other hand, maybe his relationship with Dupree is progressing to the level where he feels comfortable/confident enough in Dupree to know that he will be discrete with Ennis' confidences.   
Years ago, when I met my best friend, we'd only known each other for a week, and I felt so comfortable with her that I was telling her stuff I had never told anyone else before ... lol, I guess it just depends on the bond and trust that both parties have forged with each other.

[louisev]

I love this discussion.

Someone commented a few chapters ago about "Ennis going out of character" when he told Junior about how it was "good for boys to have a queer bar to go to to meet up with each other" and Junior replying that it was disgusting.

I made a reply on my livejournal explaining what happens when Ennis goes and does something "unEnnislike", like confiding something about the dominance/submission relationship to Dupree.  First of all, Ennis automatically seems to trust straight men more.  Because he identifies with them.  He would not have fallen in love with Ellery if he were fem, and that made him okay for Ennis to imagine having a relationship with.  He is sitting in a bar where there is a whole gaggle of fem boys acting fem and this is constantly in his face and causes him to ruminate on the nature of his --- admittedly different --- relationship with Ellery, even though there is a marked top/bottom preference in their relationship as well. 

One of the things people find a godsend after reading/seeing BBM was having an outlet for communication of their own secrets once they confronted difficult things about themselves... their homosexuality, their isolation, a hidden relationship.  Ennis is walking step by step out of a very long closeted life, and having made some initial steps, he is urgently desperate for confidants, and he cannot trust these "fem boys" (part of his annoyance with them.)  The only suitable confidant aside from his lover (one man is not enough, he learned that with Jack - to serve as lover, friend, and confidant) is someone else who he respects as a man, someone straight, someone who isn't a caricature of homosexuality that cannot relate to him.  Someone with some intelligence, sensitivity, and more than anything, openness to learn more about what he himself is going through.  He knows Dupree is curious, but not in a maudlin or casual way, but in a true desire to know and to be able to relate to both Ennis and Ellery, his friends.

I hope that explains what I am digging for here.

[Lumière]

Very well said Louise!    I agree with your thinking there!

[pastorfred]

 And for Dupree to hear that his Boss is submissive is a bad thing.  

Possible *SPOILERS* follow:

Since it's Dupree it may not be a problem at all. Ellery is not a submissive at the office at all. Wes dreams of Ellery's calling him, "sir," for goodness sake. If anyone tried to dominate Ellery in the context of work, Ellery would slap him down so hard that it'd be awhile before he could get back up. Ellery is a submissive at home because he's sick and tired of being so very dominant all day long in his job. Nobody but Ennis could ever know how much gentle nurturing Ellery needs.