Jack's and Ennis' gaydar

[serious crayons]

We've talked about how Jack seems to recognize and accept his sexuality right from the beginning of the movie. And we've debated various ideas about when Ennis recognizes his own, and when he accepts it -- if ever.

But when did Jack begin to think Ennis might be gay, and vise versa?

Did Jack have reason to believe in advance that Ennis would be receptive when he made his move in the tent? Obviously he knew Ennis liked him, but did he have a clue that Ennis liked him that way?

As for Ennis, did it occur to him to wonder about Jack's sexuality before the FNIT? When he jumps up in the tent, he looks surprised, but maybe not that surprised. Did he perhaps already register something subconsciously?

When Ennis tells Jack he ain't had the opportunity to sin, and Jack goes "Hmmmmm!" in response, as if to say, "Well, we'll have to do something about that!" were they openly flirting, or unconsciously flirting, or not flirting at all, or what?

[gattaca]

We've talked about how Jack seems to recognize and accept his sexuality right from the beginning of the movie. And we've debated various ideas about when Ennis recognizes his own, and when he accepts it -- if ever.

But when did Jack begin to think Ennis might be gay, and vise versa?

Did Jack have reason to believe in advance that Ennis would be receptive when he made his move in the tent? Obviously he knew Ennis liked him, but did he have a clue that Ennis liked him that way?

As for Ennis, did it occur to him to wonder about Jack's sexuality before the FNIT? When he jumps up in the tent, he looks surprised, but maybe not that surprised. Did he perhaps already register something subconsciously?

When Ennis tells Jack he ain't had the opportunity to sin, and Jack goes "Hmmmmm!" in response, as if to say, "Well, we'll have to do something about that!" were they openly flirting, or unconsciously flirting, or not flirting at all, or what?

Interesting topic!

It's a puzzler for me, because my 'gaydar' is broken. Needs calibration or a new transistor or something.

I read somewhere that 78% of all human communication is NON-verbal. Language can be more of a hindrance than a conduit. I think both Jack and Ennis were seeking a more intimate bond with each other on some level. Jack's vision was probably more forthright and well-conceived than Ennis's.
I believe that no one is exclusively hetero or homosexual, but most of us have strong leanings one way or the other.

Social contraints in Wyoming in the early 60s would have tended to suppress any outward manifestations of one man's affections towards another, but such constraints would have been irrelevant up on the mountain.

I think it just took Ennis a little longer to read his own heart.

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Katherine,
Thanks for starting the thread.  I'm going to copy the link back to the Randall really is... thread back on CT here for cross-referencing purposes if people are interested http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2767.45


I think the issue of gaydar/ moments of initial attraction all go back to the first enigmatic interactions in front of Aguirre's trailer.   None of these interactions and glances can ever be pegged down for sure (especially since everything happens in silence).  But, I remember old threads that used to point to this opening interaction as evidence that Ennis was attracted to Jack right away.

I'm guessing that Jack did notice that Ennis was looking at him in the parking lot.  Even though they were careful not to make eye contact (and inside Aguirre's trailer... they look at each other in turns, not simultaneously) I'm sure Jack got the sense (out of the corner of his eye, or just from vibes) that Ennis was checking him out.  Like the scene were Jack is (probably) checking out naked-Ennis through his peripheral vision, I'm guessing similar things might be happening in this opening sequence.  I think his cute urge to pose himself against his truck for Ennis was part of this.

Back on the Randall really is... thread the discussion has turned to the question of double-readings of moments that suggest societal homophobia.  [I'm paraphrasing some main points from that thread... so please bear with me for a sec...]The clear example of this is Jack's situation in the bar with Jimbo.  Are the guys around the pool table alerted to Jack's come-on by Jimbo as he approaches them?  Is this group of people around the pool table a potential menace to Jack?  Or do we just see it that way...  Are they just gossiping amongst themselves and not even paying any attention to Jack?  Has society conditioned Jack/ us to actually almost feel a sense of homophobic danger here?

I'm bringing this up because the idea of societal conditioning, I think, plays in to the opening sequence of interaction between Jack and Ennis. We/ the audience (even if we're gay and/or know all about what this story is about) are so conditioned to looking at interactions between cowboys as almost anything other than flirting that we might simply miss all sorts of homosexual behavior/ vibes going on.  What I mean here is that society might condition us/ characters like Jack and Ennis to perceive homophobia even in situations where it's not there... and similarly society might condition us to not notice/ dismiss visible gay behavior even when it's right in front of us.  The idea of silencing or making gay people/ behavior invisible is one manifestation of the same homophobic society.  So, no wonder we and Jack/ Ennis are confused about where everything stands and when the signs really are all in place that will allow Jack to grab Ennis's hand with confidence.    If Ang Lee and these actors really are tuned into subtleties like this than they absolutely deserve every award they won.

But, back to Jack's gaydar... I think Jack probably has almost super-human gaydar.  My point on the other thread was/is that he pegged Ennis of all people.  And, he figured Randall out and really attracted Randall with a few bats of his eyelashes across the dinner table.  Interestingly, Jack's most successful moments, capitalizing on his gaydar, happen in silence.  Randall is attracted to Jack (and Jack notices this) in a situation when they cannot openly discuss the chemistry that's going back and forth between them.  The attraction is established before the chat on the bench (in my opinion).  And, Jack's greatest success in wooing a male lover is clearly Ennis... and again all the initial moments of attraction happen in silence.  The one exception might be the "I ain't had the opportunity" chat (where Jack might actually be picking up on an overt verbal clue... but that's clearly opent to debate).  And then the question becomes, was Jimbo really gay and just super closeted out of fear of the environment/ bartender? 

[Mikaela]

was Jimbo really gay and just super closeted out of fear of the environment/ bartender?

That's my opinion. Jimbo's lines are all delivered with furtive glances towards the bartender; - as if he's playing a role as aloof straight guy and wants to be absolutely sure the bartender gets his performance. I think Jack's gaydar worked prefectly where Jimbo was concerned. Which adds another tiny sliver to the tragedy of the film -  Jimbo being another "victim" of their time and place.

The one exception might be the "I ain't had the opportunity" chat (where Jack might be actually picking up on an overt verbal clue... but that's clearly opent to debate.

In the intermediate script draft revised by J. Schamus that has been referenced a couple of places, it appears Ennis's line actually is: You may be a sinner, but Alma's not yet given me the opportunity... (or something very similar to that). At any rate it clearly indicated that Ennis's line was intended to be understood by Jack and us as a comment on sexuality. It's understandable that they'd later remove the reference to Alma as he's flirting with a man there. Plus, it increases that ever-present ambiguity.

[serious crayons]

Jimbo's lines are all delivered with furtive glances towards the bartender; - as if he's playing a role as aloof straight guy and wants to be absolutely sure the bartender gets his performance.

Oh, RIGHT! I didn't think about this before, but now that you mention it, sure.
 

In the intermediate script draft revised by J. Schamus that has been referenced a couple of places, it appears Ennis's line actually is: You may be a sinner, but Alma's not yet given me the opportunity... (or something very similar to that).

Wow, I'm sure glad they changed that! Not only for the reasons you mention, but because I love the fact that Alma's name only comes up twice, and both times it's given no further comment. Particularly conspicuously so the first time, when Ennis mentions his impending nuptuals and Jack ignores it and goes back to complaining about Aguirre. When two people are attracted to each other and one is involved with someone else, it's natural for both to avoid mentioning the someone else.

As someone pointed out on a thread long ago, that's another thing that must have set off a little beep on both their gaydars -- the fact that neither ever says much about women or sex at all, pretty unusual for 19-year-old guys.

Is this group of people around the pool table a potential menace to Jack?  Or do we just see it that way...  Are they just gossiping amongst themselves and not even paying any attention to Jack?  Has society conditioned Jack/ us to actually almost feel a sense of homophobic danger here?

Yes, and here's another crippling effect of societal homophobia -- the pool players may or may not be talking about Jack, but for his own safety Jack has to assume they are and get the hell out of there.

I think Jack probably has almost super-human gaydar.  My point on the other thread was/is that he pegged Ennis of all people.  And, he figured Randall out and really attracted Randall with a few bats of his eyelashes across the dinner table.

Maybe so! I guess I had all along assumed just the opposite -- that in that place and time all Jack could do was give it a shot every now and then and hope the other guy was also gay and therefore receptive. Between Ennis and Jimbo, his score was 1 and 1. A possible argument for this is that Jack may have had an exaggerated idea of what proportion of men actually WERE gay -- he surely hadn't read Alfred Kinsey's books or anything and, living out on that isolated ranch, he'd be familiar only with his own feelings. Maybe, unlike Ennis, he hadn't even heard much talk about homosexuality, growing up. Clearly Jack's dad isn't the world's most open-minded guy, but it may not have been the big issue for him that it was for Ennis' dad.

But I like your explanation better, Amanda; it makes more sense. For that matter, maybe gay people's gaydar in general was more superhuman back then, our of necessity -- they had to rely on really subtle cues because it had to be so much on the QT. And though I think Randall was doing most of the instigating at the dance, he in turn must have picked up cues from Jack -- and maybe Jack was deliberately sending them.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I think the issue of gaydar/ moments of initial attraction all go back to the first enigmatic interactions in front of Aguirre's trailer.   None of these interactions and glances can ever be pegged down for sure (especially since everything happens in silence).  But, I remember old threads that used to point to this opening interaction as evidence that Ennis was attracted to Jack right away.

Ennis attracted to Jack right away? I've missed those discussions, I think. Jack noticing that Ennis is attractive? Sure enough. Ennis being immediately attracted to Jack? Immediately as in outside Aguirre's office? No, I don't buy that.

I'm guessing that Jack did notice that Ennis was looking at him in the parking lot.  Even though they were careful not to make eye contact (and inside Aguirre's trailer... they look at each other in turns, not simultaneously) I'm sure Jack got the sense (out of the corner of his eye, or just from vibes) that Ennis was checking him out.  Like the scene were Jack is (probably) checking out naked-Ennis through his peripheral vision, I'm guessing similar things might be happening in this opening sequence.  I think his cute urge to pose himself against his truck for Ennis was part of this.

  Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but I gotta laugh because it seems we see so much of this from directly opposite positions. I don't think Jack's posing was a response to Ennis checking him out, I think he's trying to get Ennis's attention. Jack thinks Ennis is attractive and he's trying to get a rise out of Ennis (sorry--couldn't resist that!) to see if there's any returned interest.

It's true, as you said, we can't peg down these interactions definitively. I'm not willing to go too far on them, the interactions in the parking lot and Aguirre's office, because of my understanding that they knew when they arrived there that they would be working for the summer with some other guy. It would have been really strange if they hadn't checked each other out. As for Ennis, I've concluded long ago and to my own satisfaction that one reason for the way he responds--or barely responds--to Jack in those early scenes is because he's shy. He was raised lonely and he isn't very well socialized.

Back on the Randall really is... thread the discussion has turned to the question of double-readings of moments that suggest societal homophobia.  [I'm paraphrasing some main points from that thread... so please bear with me for a sec...]The clear example of this is Jack's situation in the bar with Jimbo.  Are the guys around the pool table alerted to Jack's come-on by Jimbo as he approaches them?  Is this group of people around the pool table a potential menace to Jack?  Or do we just see it that way...  Are they just gossiping amongst themselves and not even paying any attention to Jack?  Has society conditioned Jack/ us to actually almost feel a sense of homophobic danger here?

I'll just mention here that at one point in the development of the film (the 2004 screenplay), those guys gathered around the pool table all did turn and look at Jack, so there was, at that point, I believe an intention to convey a threat there.

But, back to Jack's gaydar... I think Jack probably has almost super-human gaydar.  My point on the other thread was/is that he pegged Ennis of all people.  And, he figured Randall out and really attracted Randall with a few bats of his eyelashes across the dinner table.  Interestingly, Jack's most successful moments, capitalizing on his gaydar, happen in silence.  Randall is attracted to Jack (and Jack notices this) in a situation when they cannot openly discuss the chemistry that's going back and forth between them.  The attraction is established before the chat on the bench (in my opinion).  And, Jack's greatest success in wooing a male lover is clearly Ennis... and again all the initial moments of attraction happen in silence.  The one exception might be the "I ain't had the opportunity" chat (where Jack might actually be picking up on an overt verbal clue... but that's clearly opent to debate).  And then the question becomes, was Jimbo really gay and just super closeted out of fear of the environment/ bartender? 

Here again, I think we see things from directly opposite directions. I'll repeat my comment from the "Randall is" thread that Jack had a month of living in isolation with Ennis before he made his move. This is not to deny that he still took a risk, but I think after living with someone for a month, getting closer to him emotionally, it takes less gaydar to make that move than it would have if, for example, Jack tried something their first night alone on the mountain. And I think it's illogical, anyway, to think that someone who was raised when and where Jack was raised would have "almost super-human gaydar."

In the case of Randall, I don't think we really know who attracted whom, first. That flirtation is already running full throttle when we see the Twists and the Malones at that table at the dinner dance. Personally I've always assumed that Randall made the first move, based on Randall being the one to suggest that they spend a weekend at his boss's fishing cabin some time. We also haven't had any indication that Jack has gone hunting on home turf yet.

BTW, Mikaela has the quote from the 2004 script almost exactly correct: "You may be a sinner, but Alma ain't yet given me the opportunity."

[serious crayons]

Jeff, I agree with you. (Amazing, hunh? ) I also don't think either would have thought much of being looked at by the other -- that would be only natural, if you're destined to spend an entire summer living and working in isolation together.

However, I do think Ennis easily might have been attracted to Jack from the get-go. Why would that be hard to believe? As we all know, Jack is attractive. Ennis may try to supress his reaction to handsome men -- in fact, we actually see him do it later, when Jack is trying to control his horse -- but surely at some level he registers it. And yes, he is pathologically shy and socially maladroit, but finding Jack attractive may have aggrevated that. After all, later in the movie Ennis seems taciturn but not inordinately shy.

I'll just mention here that at one point in the development of the film (the 2004 screenplay), those guys gathered around the pool table all did turn and look at Jack, so there was, at that point, I believe an intention to convey a threat there.

Jeff, I know you weren't necessarily doing this, but sometimes I see people discussing earlier versions as if they're evidence of the filmmakers' intentions. I think we should pay attention mainly to the finished version, if only because the omission of the earlier stuff may indicate just the opposite -- that Ang et. al. decided that's NOT the message they wanted to send. Jeff, I realize you may have just been throwing the info out for the record.

Jack had a month of living in isolation with Ennis before he made his move. This is not to deny that he still took a risk, but I think after living with someone for a month, getting closer to him emotionally, it takes less gaydar to make that move than it would have if, for example, Jack tried something their first night alone on the mountain. And I think it's illogical, anyway, to think that someone who was raised when and where Jack was raised would have "almost super-human gaydar."

OK, so what events or interactions during that month would have set Jack's gaydar off? And how sure was Jack by the time he grabbed Ennis' hand?

[Jeff Wrangler]

Jeff, I agree with you. (Amazing, hunh? ) I also don't think either would have thought much of being looked at by the other -- that would be only natural, if you're destined to spend an entire summer living and working in isolation together.

However, I do think Ennis easily might have been attracted to Jack from the get-go. Why would that be hard to believe? As we all know, Jack is attractive. Ennis may try to supress his reaction to handsome men -- in fact, we actually see him do it later, when Jack is trying to control his horse -- but surely at some level he registers it. And yes, he is pathologically shy and socially maladroit, but finding Jack attractive may have aggrevated that. After all, later in the movie Ennis seems taciturn but not inordinately shy.

Yes, he might have been, but why is it so difficult to believe that he might not have been, just because of later developments? And personally I've never been convinced that Ennis's glance at Jack when he's trying to control the horse has anything to do with sexual attraction. My reading of the look on Ennis's face at that point has always been more like, "Who is this guy, anyway?" 

Jeff, I know you weren't necessarily doing this, but sometimes I see people discussing earlier versions as if they're evidence of the filmmakers' intentions.

Well, they were somebody's intention at one time. ...

I think we should pay attention mainly to the finished version, if only because the omission of the earlier stuff may indicate just the opposite -- that Ang et. al. decided that's NOT the message they wanted to send. Jeff, I realize you may have just been throwing the info out for the record.

Aren't you even the teeniest bit interested in the evolution of what we finally see?

OK, so what events or interactions during that month would have set Jack's gaydar off? And how sure was Jack by the time he grabbed Ennis' hand?

Sorry, no offense, but I'm not going to be drawn into that sort of parsing or pinpointing because, frankly, it just doesn't interest me any more.

Just for the record, though, I don't believe Jimbo is gay, I don't think we're supposed to believe he's a closet case putting on a show for the bartender and the other guys, and I think there is supposed to be an implied threat in Jimbo talking to the guys around the pool table. Surely even with Ang Lee, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. 

[Brown Eyes]

Well, if we look at this film in very broad terms, this is a deeply, deeply romantic movie specifically about these two characters (the other people, as poignant as they may be end up being peripheral).  I don't think that it's too hard to imagine that Lee is trying to convey an extremely unconventional "love at first sight" moment between Ennis and Jack.  And yes, in many ways this is latent love at first sight.  But, I think the initial fascination is there (even for Ennis). 

I do agree, Jeff, that Jack is posing against his truck in order to attract Ennis's attention... but he does this because he's aware that Ennis is looking.

And, back to tiny details that add clues to hidden meanings in scenes...  I think there's strong evidence in the bar scene when Jack and Ennis are getting to know one another after the meeting with Aguirre that Ennis is totally smitten with Jack.  The darts behind Ennis's head seem like cowboy-versions of cupid's arrows (all pointing towards Ennis from Jack's direction) and Jack is literally sitting in a ray of sunshine. 

The parallels/ contrasts between this scene with Jack and Ennis in the bar compared to Jack and Jimbo is very interesting.  Jimbo and Jack are position in the same way that Ennis and Jack are in the early bar scene.  The amount of pressure in the two scenes is palpable.  The conversation between Ennis and Jack seems comfortable and not forced (and any pretext of flirting is so subtle as to be almost un-noticeable).  While, the conversation between Jimbo and Jack is loaded with the pressures of an overt "pick-up." 

All the old discussions about when Ennis was attracted to Jack and the more controvesial threads about whether Ennis was really gay are all from old imdb days (and are in the archive)... most of those conversations dealt with these opening sequences and the issue of gaydar (in more or less explicit terms).

[serious crayons]

OK, OK, I take it back, you've convinced me, Jeff, I don't agree with you. 

Re Ennis' initial attraction to Jack:

Yes, he might have been, but why is it so difficult to believe that he might not have been, just because of later developments?

Um, seems like it was ME who said "Ennis easily might have been attracted to Jack" (emphasis added) and YOU who said, "Ennis being immediately attracted to Jack? ... No, I don't buy that" (emphasis added). So who's the one finding the other position "difficult to believe"? I see no reason to definitively state that Ennis was NOT attracted to Jack -- we don't know for sure, but my argument was, again, that he might have been. After all, as you know, many people are!

And personally I've never been convinced that Ennis's glance at Jack when he's trying to control the horse has anything to do with sexual attraction. My reading of the look on Ennis's face at that point has always been more like, "Who is this guy, anyway?" 

OK. But just in case there's any confusion, the glance I'm talking about is not the one before they go up on the mountain (when, I fully agree, he does give a "who is this guy?" look), but the one later, when they've been up there a while and Ennis is straightening up dishes and Jack's horse is jumping around. Jack looks embarassed and then gets the horse under control and turns around and heads off toward the sheep. Ennis watches him go, then he leans way out to watch Jack as he recedes into the forest, then a split second later visibly catches himself and turns back to the dishes.

Aren't you even the teeniest bit interested in the evolution of what we finally see?

Sure! I didn't say it wasn't interesting. All I'm saying is that evolution isn't the same as outcome, and I prefer to analyze the finished product. I sure as hell wouldn't want people to judge MY writing on the basis of my first -- or fourth, or sixth -- draft.

Sorry, no offense, but I'm not going to be drawn into that sort of parsing or pinpointing because, frankly, it just doesn't interest me any more.

Fine, no offense taken. Nobody's here to draw you into anything you don't want to do -- I was just being conversational. But, if I may ask, why are you on this thread in the first place? Isn't that sort of parsing or pinpointing the whole point of this discussion?

Just for the record, though, I don't believe Jimbo is gay, I don't think we're supposed to believe he's a closet case putting on a show for the bartender and the other guys, and I think there is supposed to be an implied threat in Jimbo talking to the guys around the pool table. Surely even with Ang Lee, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. 

Of course. The thing is, we all don't always agree on what's a cigar and what's not. And there's room here for all opinions. This is one case that seems like it could very well be a non-cigar -- that is, more than meets the eye at first. And there's no point in invoking Occam's Razor; as far as I can tell, either explanation seems, at the very least, equally within the realm of possibility.

So the guys around the pool table represent an implied threat? Very possible! Most of us interpreted it that way, at least at some point. And I think that's intended -- they DO look threatening. But why don't any of them actually look at Jack?