Author Topic: Jack's and Ennis' gaydar  (Read 19159 times)

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jack's and Ennis' gaydar
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2006, 05:03:32 pm »
OK. But just in case there's any confusion, the glance I'm talking about is not the one before they go up on the mountain (when, I fully agree, he does give a "who is this guy?" look), but the one later, when they've been up there a while and Ennis is straightening up dishes and Jack's horse is jumping around. Jack looks embarassed and then gets the horse under control and turns around and heads off toward the sheep. Ennis watches him go, then he leans way out to watch Jack as he recedes into the forest, then a split second later visibly catches himself and turns back to the dishes.

Sorry about that! Wrong "looking at Jack" scene on my part!

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But, if I may ask, why are you on this thread in the first place? Isn't that sort of parsing or pinpointing the whole point of this discussion?

Is it? I thought the point was Jack and Ennis's gaydar, if any? If you want to try to identify specific instances, that's fine. I'm just not interested in doing that sort of close examining any more.

"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Jack's and Ennis' gaydar
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2006, 03:29:09 am »
Is it? I thought the point was Jack and Ennis's gaydar, if any? If you want to try to identify specific instances, that's fine. I'm just not interested in doing that sort of close examining any more.

OK. To me, identification of specific instances -- in this case, of Jack and Ennis' gaydar, if any -- seem sort of the bread and butter of threads like this. But clearly you see the threads in a different way, and prefer different kinds of conversations. That's just fine. I don't think anyone wants to draw you into anything you're not interested in doing. All discussions here are completely optional! And we're interested in whatever you feel you DO want to contribute.

 :)

Offline Rayn

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Re: Jack's and Ennis' gaydar
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2006, 02:25:04 pm »

....when did Jack begin to think Ennis might be gay, and vise versa?  Did Jack have reason to believe in advance that Ennis would be receptive when he made his move in the tent? Obviously he knew Ennis liked him, but did he have a clue that Ennis liked him that way?  As for Ennis, did it occur to him to wonder about Jack's sexuality before the FNIT? When he jumps up in the tent, he looks surprised, but maybe not that surprised. Did he perhaps already register something subconsciously?  When Ennis tells Jack he ain't had the opportunity to sin, and Jack goes "Hmmmmm!" in response, as if to say, "Well, we'll have to do something about that!" were they openly flirting, or unconsciously flirting, or not flirting at all, or what?



I think Jack was very aware of himself from the GITGO!  Note when they first met.  Jack practically stared Ennis down like a coyote scoping out a hen house!  He sized him up, kept checking him out, watched in the mirror when he was shaving.  He felt an attraction for Ennis right away and didn’t mind it.  Jack didn't have a problem with his sexuality and pretty much accepted himself as he was.

 Ennis, on the other hand didn't have much of a clue.  His was a journey of self discovery and Jack opened a whole huge adventurous sexual and emotional territory to him, led him in to it and did all he could to keep him there because, he loved Ennis. 

 I see Jack as rather unafraid to love whereas Ennis had "ideas and notions" of what love was "suppose to be", but Ennis didn't understand true love, didn't understand his emotions all that well.  That's why he couldn't make the best choice for himself when Jack asked him to live with him.  He should have said yes to Jack, but he couldn’t.  He just didn't get it and was too afraid because of the trauma of his childhood and fear of abandonment. 

Rayn

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Jack's and Ennis' gaydar
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2006, 02:44:52 pm »
I agree with you, Rayn.  And I think that Jack decided to take a chance the first time they were together in the tent because he figured that Ennis and he were close enough as friends that if it turned out Ennis wasn't the least bit interested, he'd most likely not kick his ass.  Yes, it was a big chance to take, for sure.  But considering they were all alone on the mountain (or so they thought) and he'd have thought no one would ever have to know about his failed attempt were that the case but the two of them, it was a chance worth taking.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 02:46:25 pm by ednbarby »
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Jack's and Ennis' gaydar
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2006, 10:23:27 pm »

I think Jack was very aware of himself from the GITGO!  Note when they first met.  Jack practically stared Ennis down like a coyote scoping out a hen house!  He sized him up, kept checking him out, watched in the mirror when he was shaving. 

Well, thinking of the "GITGO"... I totally agree.  And, this long enigmatic opening meeting just must be significant.  Lee dwells on this interaction for so long... you know every nuance must be important. 

I think this is all about testing each audience member's viewpoint.  There are a number of different ways to read/interpret each look, pose, foot-shuffle, etc. and the reading probably reflects right back onto the audience member and how they want to see the scene or how they're predisposed to see the scene. 
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Jack's and Ennis' gaydar
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2006, 12:21:25 am »
And, this long enigmatic opening meeting just must be significant.  Lee dwells on this interaction for so long... you know every nuance must be important. 

Good point. If only because this scene is about five times as long as scenes you'd think would be far more significant, there must be more going on here than two guys waiting to get hired for a job.


Offline dly64

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Re: Jack's and Ennis' gaydar
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2006, 11:15:12 am »
We've talked about how Jack seems to recognize and accept his sexuality right from the beginning of the movie. And we've debated various ideas about when Ennis recognizes his own, and when he accepts it -- if ever.

But when did Jack begin to think Ennis might be gay, and vise versa?

Did Jack have reason to believe in advance that Ennis would be receptive when he made his move in the tent? Obviously he knew Ennis liked him, but did he have a clue that Ennis liked him that way?

As for Ennis, did it occur to him to wonder about Jack's sexuality before the FNIT? When he jumps up in the tent, he looks surprised, but maybe not that surprised. Did he perhaps already register something subconsciously?

When Ennis tells Jack he ain't had the opportunity to sin, and Jack goes "Hmmmmm!" in response, as if to say, "Well, we'll have to do something about that!" were they openly flirting, or unconsciously flirting, or not flirting at all, or what?

This, my friend, is a good thread (figures I would find you behind this, latjoreme   ;))

The whole, "You may be a sinner ...." speech has about a million different interpretations. This is how I see it (okay, guys! Whip me upside of the head if you think I am too far off base) ... I think Ennis is a virgin at that point. Could be wrong, that is just my gut feeling. What I do believe is that neither one of them had sex with another man before that night. (another point of discentiion between Brokies).

I think there was a lot of subtle flirting before that night. IMO, however, neither of them would have acted on it had they not been drinking ... which, of course, lowered their inhabitions.

Now, don't get me started on the whole Randall thing .... I'll save that for a later conversation. :)
Diane

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jack's and Ennis' gaydar
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2006, 01:11:34 pm »
The whole, "You may be a sinner ...." speech has about a million different interpretations. This is how I see it (okay, guys! Whip me upside of the head if you think I am too far off base) ... I think Ennis is a virgin at that point. Could be wrong, that is just my gut feeling. What I do believe is that neither one of them had sex with another man before that night. (another point of discentiion between Brokies).

I agree with you that Ennis is a virgin at that point. And I think we are to understand that he's a virgin. I think that's why a change was made from the 2004 screenplay. In "2004," Ennis says that Alma hasn't yet given him the opportunity. That would or could merely mean that he hasn't had sex with Alma. For him just to say that he hasn't yet had the opportunity--period--I think implies that he hasn't had sex--period.

I wish we had more evidence to go on for Jack, although presumably he wasn't alone on that mountain the previous summer. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline dly64

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Re: Jack's and Ennis' gaydar
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2006, 02:45:47 pm »
I agree with you that Ennis is a virgin at that point. And I think we are to understand that he's a virgin. I think that's why a change was made from the 2004 screenplay. In "2004," Ennis says that Alma hasn't yet given him the opportunity. That would or could merely mean that he hasn't had sex with Alma. For him just to say that he hasn't yet had the opportunity--period--I think implies that he hasn't had sex--period.

I wish we had more evidence to go on for Jack, although presumably he wasn't alone on that mountain the previous summer....

That's true, and I've thought about that. However, I think he was just as shocked about it as Ennis (IMO). However, by the end of his life, he obviously accepted that he was gay. Ennis never did.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2006, 09:32:35 am by dly64 »
Diane

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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Jack's and Ennis' gaydar
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2006, 01:32:21 am »
I feel confused by the thoughts in my head.  

Jack was not direct - he reached around behind himself to a drunk, sleeping Ennis to pull Ennis's hand to his own penis.  That doesn't show as much confidence as if he had, say, arrived into camp one morning and walked up to Ennis and kissed him on the lips in sober daylight.

But then, when Ennis feels his hand on Jack's penis, even though he first jumps back within a few moments, he (Ennis) takes it much further.  I think most of us would agree that on the spectrum of sexual activity, a penis in an @$$hole trumps a hand on a penis.