Author Topic: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...  (Read 8632 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« on: October 27, 2008, 05:15:40 am »
Hi BetterMostians,

„Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable – admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears, - rose around them.“


What a sentence, isn't it? I think it flows beautifully. Once again, Proulx uses nature as a metaphor. It's also very direct with the insertion, almost romantic. It's this short || of using the word love  (admissions, declarations). But it's also about the impending side (shames, guilts, fears) and a bit hopeless (and now unsayable). In this way, it encapsulates their whole relationship.

But I partly digress. This week's topic is about all them things unsaid, be it from story or movie. Where are moments you feel that things are unsaid, should be said or are short of being said?
There are some well-known examples we've already discussed several times (heck, we have a whole thread about Ennis's „I swear...“), but also less obvious instances.

The topic is not limited to the relationship between Ennis and Jack. To me, for example, it always seems Alma is short of saying something (nothing nice for sure) when Ennis talks about his rodeo experiences at the Thanksgiving scene. She forces a smile, but seems to retain a snide remark.

Another thought: would it have done any good if some of the things indeed had been said?

Let's talk about



All them things unsaid


Offline underdown

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2008, 06:50:17 am »
I don't recall anyone saying, anywhere in BBM, 'I love you.'

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2008, 11:12:08 am »
I agree, the big tragedy is no one says I love you.How much guilt does that leave .Never mind Jack and Ennis, what about Ennis and Alma, or Ennis to his daughters, Jack to his son.Even LD newsome to Lureen. How can whole generations of families, never utter those 3 little words ? It seems inconceivable to me.

For me, it would have been heaven to hear Jack say I love you to Ennis, even had there been no response.The reunion kiss, would have been the ideal situation.Or even God I have missed you these 4 years. It kills me that Ennis never says the words,little darlin to Jack, as he does in the SS. I think Jack would have had something more concrete to cling on to. He would I feel immediately have known the importance of those 2 little words from someone as internalised and taciturn as Ennis.

I cry every time I read that part of the SS. He loves Jack, and that is the moment it becomes blindingly clear.


Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2008, 06:49:21 pm »
Although the words "I love you" were NOT said, there were many many times that it was shown between them, where the words were not necessary.

The reunion scene, to me being the major one. Those crushing bodies together, chests, arms, hands, faces, lips, heads..........that was far stronger than the unspoken three little words.

Even when Ennis stood at the top of the stairs and said "Jack fuckin Twist".....the look, the smile, the excitement and the complete enormity of the moment, he might as well be saying "I love you".

The did say it many times, they just didnt use the "i love you" words.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2008, 07:17:03 pm »
I think one of the main things that was unspoken between the two of them was admitting to one another and themselves (especially Ennis), was the fact that they were in a homosexual relationship and preferred that relationship to any other.

When they sat on the mountain after TS1, and said "I aint queer" and "neither am I"...they set a precedent for the next 20years together.

Jack tried to change that scenario, with "It could be like this always", but Ennis stood his ground. For him to go off with Jack permanently, would diffuse the idea, that he "aint queer".

When they sat talking on one of their "fishing trips",Ennis telling Jack about Cassy, it was like he was reinforcing to him, still,  that he "aint queer". Then Jack saying it was the "rancher's wife" he was not only covering up that he was two timing Ennis, he was also trying to convince Ennis, again,  that "neither was he" queer.

It was as if, they had to continue the charade of not beeing "queer" to justify what they were doing, was ok.

Or maybe, especially in Ennis's case, If he thought he wasn't "queer" then no one else would either.

Then in the final lake scene, when Jack admitted he had gone to Mexico, that finally, he was admitting that HE WAS.....and then Ennis broke down, and he too finally admitted the pain and agony he too had been feeling.....in his own way, he was admitting too, finally that HE WAS.

Unfortunately, we never saw them together again, after these admissions.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline mariez

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2008, 10:25:47 pm »
Although the words "I love you" were NOT said, there were many many times that it was shown between them, where the words were not necessary.

The reunion scene, to me being the major one. Those crushing bodies together, chests, arms, hands, faces, lips, heads..........that was far stronger than the unspoken three little words.

Even when Ennis stood at the top of the stairs and said "Jack fuckin Twist".....the look, the smile, the excitement and the complete enormity of the moment, he might as well be saying "I love you".

The did say it many times, they just didnt use the "i love you" words.

Yes.  Even Ennis ordering soup from the Basque, when he previously told him he didn't eat soup tells us something.

And even though the words "I love you" weren't said in the book or movie.  Ennis uses the word "love" twice in the story, when talking about his girls:

“Two little girls,” Ennis said. “Alma Jr. and Francine. Love them to pieces.”

“What I’m sayin, Jack, I built a life up in them years. Love my little girls. Alma? It ain’t her fault.

So I can see story Ennis telling his girls that he loved them, and I think that's a case where an "I love you" was not left unsaid, even if we didn't see it.

But now I'm thinking about Jack and Lureen and the things left unsaid between them.  He told her he wanted his ashes scattered on Brokeback Moutain. But she thought Brokeback was either up by Lightning Flat or a pretend place - so it appears that his wishes weren't a formal thing, but just something he "used to say" - with a lot more left unsaid.

Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2008, 11:28:03 pm »


       I think Ennis told himself that he wasn't gay.  Jack was the gay one!  "I heard what they got in
Mexico, for boys like you."  Not boys like us.  I think he had convinced himself for years, that what him
and Jack did was for his "friend" Jack.  He was so phobic, that he couldnt even allow himself to admit
to himself, he too was gay.  Maybe the only time he ever really allowed himself to feel that way was
when he said "its because a you Jack i'm like this."  Even tho he had somewhat admitted it, when he
mentioned about ' people on the street, could tell."
      So with all the denial he was not able to say, I love you or he would have to admit outloud to
himself as well.



     Beautiful mind

Offline underdown

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2008, 06:05:17 am »
Although the words "I love you" were NOT said, there were many many times that it was shown between them, where the words were not necessary.

The reunion scene, to me being the major one. Those crushing bodies together, chests, arms, hands, faces, lips, heads..........that was far stronger than the unspoken three little words.

Even when Ennis stood at the top of the stairs and said "Jack fuckin Twist".....the look, the smile, the excitement and the complete enormity of the moment, he might as well be saying "I love you".
The did say it many times, they just didnt use the "i love you" words.

Well, I disagree that the things they said, and the looks and smiles, could be taken as saying 'I love you'.
'Might as well be saying' it, is just not saying it at all.
To actually say to someone 'I love you' takes sincerity and, without that, it cannot really be love.
Yes, fond looks and smiles and loving acts are necessary, too, but it doesn't take a lot of courage.

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2008, 06:38:58 am »
Well, I disagree that the things they said, and the looks and smiles, could be taken as saying 'I love you'.
'Might as well be saying' it, is just not saying it at all.
To actually say to someone 'I love you' takes sincerity and, without that, it cannot really be love.
Yes, fond looks and smiles and loving acts are necessary, too, but it doesn't take a lot of courage.

I agree, that for them to have said the actual words, it would have been wonderful, but these two blokes were in denial about so many things, for them to have said those words, would have been very difficult.

So, the things they did in their own kinda way may not have been telling them that they loved them, but showing them that they loved them.....which, in my opinion is just as important and makes the love they feel no less nor less sincere.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline underdown

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2008, 06:53:11 am »
I agree, that for them to have said the actual words, it would have been wonderful, but these two blokes were in denial about so many things, for them to have said those words, would have been very difficult.

So, the things they did in their own kinda way may not have been telling them that they loved them, but showing them that they loved them.....which, in my opinion is just as important and makes the love they feel no less nor less sincere.

Of course. It is just as important. It's sort of sad that the words weren't said, and half the thing was missing.

Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2008, 09:12:43 am »
I think the closest  anyone got to I love you was Jack:

"Tell you what...truth is...sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

That's pretty darn close, and Ennis is speechless.

Offline mariez

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2008, 01:35:54 pm »
I think the closest  anyone got to I love you was Jack:

"Tell you what...truth is...sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

That's pretty darn close, and Ennis is speechless.

I think that's pretty darn close, too.  Good point.  And that line in the movie packs a whole lot more punch than the equivalent line in the story about "he missed Ennis bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies."

I also think Ennis had a "close-to-an-I-love-you" line (although he wouldn't be aware of it) in the movie when he tells Jack "there ain't no reins on this one," and gives that shuddering breath, swallowing hard to fight back his tears.  I think Jack realizes this, too, which is why we get that lovely comforting hand gesture on Ennis's cheek.  Sigh.

Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2008, 01:52:22 pm »
I think that's pretty darn close, too.  Good point.  And that line in the movie packs a whole lot more punch than the equivalent line in the story about "he missed Ennis bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies."

I also think Ennis had a "close-to-an-I-love-you" line (although he wouldn't be aware of it) in the movie when he tells Jack "there ain't no reins on this one," and gives that shuddering breath, swallowing hard to fight back his tears.  I think Jack realizes this, too, which is why we get that lovely comforting hand gesture on Ennis's cheek.  Sigh.

Marie

Right, Marie.  Also, just before that, Ennis says his line, "I was just sendin' up a prayer of thanks" is pretty mushy for Ennis.  Imagine the rest of that sentence:  for finding you again...

Of course, Jack goes "fishing" with his "fur what?" and Ennis has to make a joke out of it.

Offline August7th

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2008, 05:16:09 pm »
Alma’s five-year silence about the embrace she witnesses between Ennis and Jack is a very important one of “them things unsaid.”

Annie Proux makes clear in the short story that the embrace is only one reason – and apparently not necessarily the most important reason – Alma divorces Ennis. But it obviously preyed on Alma’s mind, as evidenced by the Thanksgiving dinner incident.

Suppose Alma had said something to Ennis earlier, while they were still married. As he packed for one of his “fishing trips,” what if she had said, “I know what you two are doing, and if you go I’m going to tell people about it.” What would have happened? Would Ennis have been scared out of seeing Jack again? Would he have been scared out of Riverton and gone away with Jack? Alma’s silence is necessary to the story for it to play out as it does.

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2008, 08:26:15 am »
Alma’s five-year silence about the embrace she witnesses between Ennis and Jack is a very important one of “them things unsaid.”

Annie Proux makes clear in the short story that the embrace is only one reason – and apparently not necessarily the most important reason – Alma divorces Ennis. But it obviously preyed on Alma’s mind, as evidenced by the Thanksgiving dinner incident.

Suppose Alma had said something to Ennis earlier, while they were still married. As he packed for one of his “fishing trips,” what if she had said, “I know what you two are doing, and if you go I’m going to tell people about it.” What would have happened? Would Ennis have been scared out of seeing Jack again? Would he have been scared out of Riverton and gone away with Jack? Alma’s silence is necessary to the story for it to play out as it does.


I agree that in some ways the story pans out the way it does because of Alma leaving some things unsaid.
However I do not think under any circumstances that she would have ever said anything. Partly,I think because she had a major problem actually processing what she saw. The other problem being that the shame she would have felt if it became open knowledge about Ennis would have mentally crippled her.

It would not just affect her, but also her daughters future happiness and I believe stability as well.Particularly within that harsh environment.

It interests me that none of those involved in a relationship,say I love you, not even a childish I love you from the children to their mum or dad. I do not know enough of American culture of that time and place to understand if this was quite common.

Was the deprivation so all pervasive  it precludes  any ability to express love as in those 3 little words.

Offline Mandy21

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2008, 11:47:49 am »
Fiona, having been born in Oklahoma in 1966, I can't speak fully about 1963 Wyoming culture.  Only thing I can add to your post is that the words "I love you" were never, ever spoken in my house, up until 1984, when dad was driving me away to college, and that was the first time in my life that I said it to my mom, on the front porch.  She looked shocked, but happy, to hear it, and she said she loved me too.  I think there are certain, more stoic, families and places in America, where words just get left unspoken by choice.  It's unthinkable to say such things that might get you into trouble or get you in deeper into a situation.  It's just understood from day one, that you don't say certain things.

I would have to agree with Sue/Katie77 that those three words between Ennis and Jack that were never spoken in the film, were indeed expressed in other ways.  All it takes is one look between two people to tell that they're in love forever.  And we, as viewers, got to see that look time and time again, starting from the bar scene, to the Jack and filly scene, to the Ennis looking up at the sky scene, worried, and so on and so on.  Words are just words.  They come and go, and can be taken back, and apologized for, and regretted.  They can be true or false, or half-lies, or half-truths. 

But the eyes never lie...
Dawn is coming,
Open your eyes...

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2008, 06:18:31 pm »
Yes.....being a child of the fifties and sixties too, I remember the words "I love you" were not said, as commonly as they are today...and maybe that was because our parents did not have it said to them as they grew up in the twenties and thirties.

Family and friends are much more outgoing with the feelings towards one another these days. Maybe we have seen too many people regret not saying those words until after their parent or partner have passed away.

The sixties were the start of the LOVE generation....music was telling us to love our fellow man, love our friends....flower children, were out there openly expressing love to everyone. We became more aware of our mortality, and wanted to let people know how we felt before it was too late. Then when we became parents, we told our kids every day that we loved them, and then they in turn told their kids.

Ennis and Jack would not have heard those words spoken around their homes when they were young.
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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Mandy21

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2008, 06:51:02 pm »
Hey Sue, I would agree completely.  My dad was born in 1927, mom in 1928, both in the middle of nowhere in Kansas, during the Depression.  Mom lost both her folks before she was 10, and dad lost his sister around the same age.  All there was at that time (kind of like now) was survival.  Who in the world had time for such frivolity as love???  From Annie's story, I got the distinct feeling that those two young men grew up in a world very similar.  I mean, can you possibly imagine OMT saying ILY to the Mrs.??????????   And we never get to know if the DelMar's, before the one curve in the road, said it, but I doubt it highly.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 11:34:17 am by Mandy21 »
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: TOTW 28/08: All them things unsaid...
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2008, 04:53:44 pm »
I believe that Jack wanted to tell Ennis that he loved him and would have said it many times but a look or just a vibe from Ennis stopped him from saying it. And then it became part of the unsaid pact between them. This was hinted at in the story which says there were many sounds but "not a word was said."

They also had a secret language of code words "normal and all?" "boys like you" "nobody's business but ours" and so many others. "Jack Fuckin Twist" was a code name and also a Freudian slip, don't you think?

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