Author Topic: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?  (Read 13263 times)

Offline welliwont

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Why does Ennis, who is so paranoid of being found out, expose his and Jack’s relationship to Jack’s parents?  By going to the Twist ranch Ennis should have realized that he was going to give the Twists something to think about, hell they might possibly even make the connection that Ennis was queer as was their son!  Ennis must have wondered about whether Jack’s parents knew or did not know that their son was queer.

We already know that Jack was very private and did not spread personal information about the two of them, so presumably Ennis knew that Jack was discreet in that way.  So instead of going to the Twists', why did he not write them a letter instead, or make his offer in a telephone call, about taking the ashes up to Brokeback, I mean?


« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 08:26:34 pm by JakeTwist »
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2006, 05:26:52 pm »
In my opinion, I think the need to fulfill Jack's last  wish about his ashes, was so overwhelmingly important to Ennis, that he had to go see them.
I believe he intended on just saying that they were friends, but saw something in Mrs. Twists eyes that made him believe she knew.

Also, Mr. Twist spoke freely about Jack bringing Ennis to the ranch and then another fella, and Ennis still never admitted anything.

Ennis never actually said they were lovers, he said "we was good friends."  Also at this point, the grief was so abundant, that this was the least of his problems.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2006, 05:28:50 pm by DeeDee »
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Offline Midnight24

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2006, 05:39:27 pm »
I also agree Ennis was so eager to fullfil Jake's last wishes. He went there I think to bring the ashes to Brokeback Mountain but Jake's dad refused and I guess he respected that...maybe because he didn't want him to suspect anything but something really makes me think that Jake's mother knew. Whenever she was willingly giving the shirt to Ennis something in her eyes just said something as if she knew.
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Offline welliwont

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2006, 06:17:19 pm »

Yeah, I think the general concensus is that Mrs. Twist knew that Ennis was the love of her son's life, and she comes across as VERY sympathectic to Ennis, so kind to him.   :-*

Old man Twist is another matter entirely!  As a matter of fact, I will be playing have played, and will be playing Mr. John C. Twist in BetterMost's very own production of Broke Arsed Mountain!

Don't miss our wonderful show folks!

.... what I was saying is that based on what Mr. Twist chose to disclose to Ennis, I think Mr. Twist also knew Jack was queer, and Ennis was queer.
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Offline Midnight24

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2006, 06:20:56 pm »
I think the Ang Lee was trying to show that the dad did know what was going on. He got on my nerves so bad, couldn't have been more rude. But I guess it's typical for back then when being gay wasn't exactly "looked upon." But the mom was so sweet I could just tell that even if she did know she would have accepted Jake anyways. I think Ennis might have known that they knew even though to me it didn't seem like he really expressed that in any way.

Sounds like a nice show you guys are puling off  :laugh: I'll have to see it  :D
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Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2006, 06:43:47 pm »

.... what I was saying is that based on what Mr. Twist chose to disclose to Ennis, I think Mr. Twist also knew Jack was queer, and Ennis was queer.


Perhaps the lesson in that is that people think they can hide their sexuality, but they really can't. Someone who is "in closet" is only in there to him or herself, not to those around them.
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Offline opinionista

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2006, 06:46:23 pm »
I think the Ang Lee was trying to show that the dad did know what was going on. He got on my nerves so bad, couldn't have been more rude. But I guess it's typical for back then when being gay wasn't exactly "looked upon." But the mom was so sweet I could just tell that even if she did know she would have accepted Jake anyways. I think Ennis might have known that they knew even though to me it didn't seem like he really expressed that in any way.

Sounds like a nice show you guys are puling off  :laugh: I'll have to see it  :D

Actually, it wasn't Ang Lee's idea but Proulx's. Ennis visit to Jack's parents is in the short story.

As for the original posting, I think Ennis didn't know Jack's parents knew about them. That was probably the least he expected to find or hear there. Ennis was surprised when Jack's dad tells he knew who he was.

Ennis went there to offer his condolences and to take Jack's ashes to Brokeback thinking maybe they didn't know where it was, since Lureen didn't. I personally think Ennis wanted to see something about Jack, as a personal tribute or something. I have the impression that he sort of felt the need to be close to Jack, to feel the love and the pain, and the only thing he could do about it was to visit his parents.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2006, 06:56:34 pm »
On a very mundane, unromantic level, Lightning Flat is a long way from Riverton. Ennis might have expected never to see Jack's folks again after that visit.

Not that I think Ennis ever stopped to make that consideration.

Even had Ennis not loved Jack, the widow of the best friend he ever had more or less asked him to make that trip, and Ennis is the kind of man who would do that.
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Offline David

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2006, 07:04:33 pm »
Actually... Lureen suggested that he contact Jacks folks about getting the ashes and fulfilling Jacks wishes.

Ennis wasn't really outing himself.  Many people will go out of their way when a close friend or loved one dies.   Even taking the shirts cannot be called a "gay" thing to do.
Taking a momento from a deceased loved one is not uncommon.   

Henry Ford (the car man) was very close to his two best friends.  Thomas Edison and Harvey Firestone.    When Edison was dying, Ford went to visit him on his death bed.   He took with him a large clear glass test tube.  He had Thomas Edison breath into it and then he capped it off.   This tube with Edisons last breath in it is on display today at Henry Fords huge Museum complex in Dearborn Michigan!   Now that is really wanting a momento from a best friend!    I saw this when I visited the Museum called "Greefield Village".    He has the chair from the theater that President Lincoln was assassinated in too.    Henry Ford idolized President Lincoln.  And yes, the Lincoln car was named after him.

Offline Midnight24

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2006, 07:10:34 pm »
Actually, it wasn't Ang Lee's idea but Proulx's. Ennis visit to Jack's parents is in the short story.

As for the original posting, I think Ennis didn't know Jack's parents knew about them. That was probably the least he expected to find or hear there. Ennis was surprised when Jack's dad tells he knew who he was.

Ennis went there to offer his condolences and to take Jack's ashes to Brokeback thinking maybe they didn't know where it was, since Lureen didn't. I personally think Ennis wanted to see something about Jack, as a personal tribute or something. I have the impression that he sort of felt the need to be close to Jack, to feel the love and the pain, and the only thing he could do about it was to visit his parents.

Yeah, I know it was in the short story I guess I just forgot about that. Sorry XD  ;D
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Offline fernly

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2006, 07:26:48 pm »
In my opinion, I think the need to fulfill Jack's last  wish about his ashes, was so overwhelmingly important to Ennis, that he had to go see them.
Also at this point, the grief was so abundant, that this was the least of his problems.
I agree. I think that Ennis realized he had denied Jack's dearest wish, over and over. Fullfilling this other, last wish of Jack's seemed to be the only thing that he could do for Jack, and his fears no longer mattered to Ennis. The worst had already happened.

When he got to Lightning Flat, and had his interaction with Mr. Twist, Ennis realized even more fully how he'd hurt Jack. When Ennis found the shirts (guided by Jack's mom), Ennis found something something else he could do for Jack, and for himself, more important than honoring Jack by seeing his ashes scattered where he wished. No matter where we stand on the question of Ennis' future, I think there's agreement that finding the shirts, and the evidence of Jack's love for him, led Ennis to act toward at least one other person out of knowing, finally, that love was what mattered the most.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2006, 08:56:22 pm by fernly »
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Offline welliwont

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2006, 08:36:13 pm »
I agree. I think that Ennis realized he had denied Jack's dearest wish, over and over. Fullfilling this other, last wish of Jack's seemed to be the only thing that he could do for Jack, and his fears no longer mattered to Ennis. The worst had already happened.

When he got to Lightning Flat, and had his interaction with the Mr. Twist, Ennis realized even more fully how he'd hurt Jack. When Ennis found the shirts (guided by Jack's mom), Ennis found something something else he could do for Jack, and for himself, more important than honoring Jack by seeing his ashes scattered where he wished. No matter where we stand on the question of Ennis' future, I think there's agreement that finding the shirts, and the evidence of Jack's love for him, led Ennis to act toward at least one other person out of knowing, finally, that love was what mattered the most.

Beautiful post fernly!! :)   (why can't I write stuff like that!?!  ???)

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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2006, 09:07:14 pm »
Beautiful post fernly!! :)   (why can't I write stuff like that!?!  ???)

I agree, Jane.  Lovely, Lynn.  And I think everyone else here makes excellent points - like Jeff's that that was the kind of man Ennis was - the kind that would honor the request of his best friend's widow - and all of you who said that the worst had already happened and exposing himself to the Twists was the furthest worry from his mind at that point.
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Offline Katie77

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2006, 09:21:36 pm »
Yes, there was no hesitation in Ennis going to visit theTwists.....he was going to fulfil Jacks wish, to get the ashes and take them to Brokeback.

I am sure Mrs Twist knew about the boys, or at least felt that there was something special between them...Not sure if Old man Twist got the right picture, I think all he thought about in his selfish way, was the thought of two blokes coming up and fixing up his ranch.

Mrs Twist knew Ennis was not going to get the ashes, but she made sure Ennis was going to get the two shirts and was not going to leave empty handed...Maybe Jack had told her the origins of the shirts at some time, i believe he probably did.

By the way, "ednbarby"...what a beautiful quote you have at the bottom of your post..I have read it over and over.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2006, 10:02:39 pm »
By the way, "ednbarby"...what a beautiful quote you have at the bottom of your post..I have read it over and over.

I've been noticing the quotation, too. You a Sting fan, Barb?  :)
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Offline wolf

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2006, 10:42:41 pm »
Yes, there was no hesitation in Ennis going to visit theTwists.....he was going to fulfil Jacks wish, to get the ashes and take them to Brokeback.

I am sure Mrs Twist knew about the boys, or at least felt that there was something special between them...Not sure if Old man Twist got the right picture, I think all he thought about in his selfish way, was the thought of two blokes coming up and fixing up his ranch.

Mrs Twist knew Ennis was not going to get the ashes, but she made sure Ennis was going to get the two shirts and was not going to leave empty handed...Maybe Jack had told her the origins of the shirts at some time, i believe he probably did.

By the way, "ednbarby"...what a beautiful quote you have at the bottom of your post..I have read it over and over.

Katie, reading your post and noting your use of the word "blokes" has me wondering if you're Australian!

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Offline Katie77

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2006, 11:26:18 pm »
Yes i am an aussie.....and i have met another one here since i joined the board the other day...

Nice to meet ya mate....
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2006, 02:29:02 am »
This thread is dedicated to Katherine!

Wow, thanks, JakeTwist! How flattering! Guess I'd better post on it, then. (I just discovered it now.) Also, my view seems to be different from many of those here.

When Ennis goes to see the Twists, IMO, he's basically coming out to them. As someone else put it, in what I thought was a very plain but beautiful way (much to my chagrin -- and despite concerted searches -- I can't remember who it was): "I'm the queer who loved your son."

Ennis doesn't tell the Twists he and Jack were lovers. That would be entirely out of character. But Ennis does tell the Twists "I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel" about Jack. Which is literally true -- he feels really bad, but can't talk about it. But Mr. Twist immediately makes clear that he knows what's going on. "Tell you what, I know where Brokeback Mountain is," is his coded/symbolic way of saying he knows Jack was gay. (To clarify, that's not Mr. Twist deliberately speaking in code to Ennis, it's the filmmakers deliberately speaking in code to us viewers: the mountain symbolizes their homosexual relationship, so Mr. Twist's line symbolically implies he knows about Jack's homosexuality). If that's not clear enough, Mr. Twist makes it even more so when he talks about Jack wanting to ranch up with Ennis, and then this spring with another fella. Mr. Twist may be a jerk, but he's not an idiot. He gets it. And Ennis knows full well he gets it.

As does Mrs. Twist, which is again obvious to Ennis. Her sympathy, her gentle push toward the shirts, her nodding approval when he takes them -- he understands what she's saying, and indicates so by the way he responds to her in return: nods,  a thank you, a  lingering grateful look on the porch as he leaves.

So Ennis understands that the Twists "know." But at that point he doesn't care. He doesn't run out and get himself beat up, as he did on Thanksgiving. He is willing to face Mr. Twist and be courteous despite the old man's rudeness. He even comes close to tears at the news of the other fella, despite what he knows it would reveal. Though protective of Jack (he somewhat shields the shirts from Mr. Twist), he also walks right through the kitchen with them, symbol of his and Jack's relationship.

Since Jack's death, he has realized that his desire to hide his homosexuality and their relationship has ruined his life. In that light, hiding seems a lot less important. What has become far more important is expressing his grief, and doing what he can to honor Jack's memory.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2006, 02:20:36 pm by latjoreme »

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2006, 04:07:27 pm »
I've been noticing the quotation, too. You a Sting fan, Barb?  :)

Yes.  But the version I prefer is actually Eva Cassidy's.  I used to play it for Will when he was going to sleep at night as a baby.  It has a much more poignant and melancholy sound to it than Sting's version.

Here's a lovely BBM montage someone made to Eva's version - it was coming across this on youtube (or was it here?) and loving it last week that made me change my signature to the first line in the song.  I just watched it again now and welled up all over again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocwLOQcGaow&search=brokeback%20mountain%20fields%20of%20gold
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2006, 06:04:43 pm »
The reason why Ennis went up to Lightning Flat?

I think he had this overwhelming need to feel as close as possible to Jack  - to see and to touch some sort of physical evidence that Jack had existed. He also may have wanted to experience the small comfort (although bleak) that can be found in shared grief. And he had a need to see Jack's last wish for final resting place fulfilled. After having refused to fulfill his wish for a "sweet life" on earth all of Jack's life, that might perhaps provide some sort of closure. Moreoever I think Ennis wished to once revisit Brokeback with Jack - to say goodbye to the place in saying goodbye to the man.


When Ennis goes to see the Twists, IMO, he's basically coming out to them.  [snip]
But Mr. Twist immediately makes clear that he knows what's going on. "Tell you what, I know where Brokeback Mountain is," is his coded/symbolic way of saying he knows Jack was gay. If that's not clear enough, Mr. Twist makes it even more so when he talks about Jack wanting to ranch up with Ennis, and then this spring with another fella. Mr. Twist may be a jerk, but he's not an idiot. He gets it. And Ennis knows full well he gets it.

As does Mrs. Twist, which is again obvious to Ennis. Her sympathy, her gentle push toward the shirts, her nodding approval when he takes them -- he understands what she's saying, and indicates so by the way he responds to her in return: nods,  a thank you, a  lingering grateful look on the porch as he leaves.

So Ennis understands that the Twists "know." But at that point he doesn't care.

I agree that both the Twists know, and that they make it very plain to Ennis that they know, as plain as can be without saying the words outright. 

But I don't think Ennis had any thought of "coming out" to the Twists; - I very much doubt he even considered the risk of being "outed". (But even if he did, he wouldn't have let that stop him.) I don't think he would have expected the Twists to have heard about him except perhaps as some casual "hunting buddy", so their level of knowledge about him must have come as a surprise. I think he hoped they'd just see his offer as a bona fide condolence visit and offer of help, nothing more.

But once he's there, he realizes that they do know - and yet, the heavens don't come crashing down. As the quote above says, he doesn't care. He discovers that horrible as it is, he can actually stand this. In the behaviour of Mr. Twist he meets the contempt of the world that he's always expected to meet, if the truth became known. But he finds that is not as horrible as he's always feared it would be; - there are worse things. And he also unexpectedly meets an outstretched hand - acceptance, compassion, respect. 

Ennis receives two posthumous and very precious gifts from Jack at Lightning Flat, that both go a long way towards putting Ennis's deepest fears to rest and giving him some measure of inner peace:  The shirts, proving to Ennis that Jack loved him all along until his death, when Ennis feared he didn't. And the Twists's behaviour towards Ennis, prompted by the knowledge that Jack had deposited with his parents, proving to Ennis in practice that he is able to stand being known as a queer, that he may actually survive people *knowing* about him, that he may well meet understanding, not only disgust.

Perhaps the visit with the Twists and Jack's two gifts represented important early steps in a process that eventually will let Ennis have peace with himself and truly accept who he really is.
 

Offline dly64

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2006, 09:59:54 pm »
Why does Ennis, who is so paranoid of being found out, expose his and Jack’s relationship to Jack’s parents?  By going to the Twist ranch Ennis should have realized that he was going to give the Twists something to think about, hell they might possibly even make the connection that Ennis was queer as was their son!  Ennis must have wondered about whether Jack’s parents knew or did not know that their son was queer.

We already know that Jack was very private and did not spread personal information about the two of them, so presumably Ennis knew that Jack was discreet in that way.  So instead of going to the Twists', why did he not write them a letter instead, or make his offer in a telephone call, about taking the ashes up to Brokeback, I mean.

This thread is dedicated to Katherine!

IMO, Ennis did not see himself as gay. What he did know, however, was that he loved Jack. It was important for him to get Jack's ashes and scatter them on BBM. The short story says, after Jack's dad refuses to let the ashes go:

"Bumping down the washboard road Ennis passed the country cemetary fenced with sagging sheep wire, a tiny fenced square on the welling prairie, a few graves with plastic flowers, and didn't want to know that Jack was going in there, to be buried on the grieving plain."

BBM symbolized freedom for Ennis and Jack. Freedom from prying eyes, freedom to be themselves without fear ... the feeling they were "invisible". The romantic in me thinks that Ennis wanted to scatter Jack's ashes on BBM so that when Ennis died he, too, would have his ashes scattered on BBM and they could finally be together forever.

I think both Twists knew Jack was gay. I also believe Jack's mother knew about the shirts. That is why she invited him to go up to Jack's room. (OT - at the lake scene before their row - Jack says he's going up to Lightning flat to see his folks for a couple of days. My feeling is he didn't go to visit his parents. He went to be close to something that belonged to Ennis).

I like how Roger Ebert describes this scene:

A closing scene involving a visit by Ennis to Jack's parents is heartbreaking in what is said, and not said, about their world. A look around Jack's childhood bedroom suggests what he overcame to make room for his feelings.

(Bear with me folks ... I am the queen of quotes.)

« Last Edit: June 29, 2006, 10:12:35 pm by dly64 »
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Offline welliwont

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2006, 12:59:45 am »
IMO, Ennis did not see himself as gay.

If I had a nickel for ever' one who said that... ::)

I am on the fence on a lot of these matters, I LOVE Jake I mean Jack and Ennis, *sigh*.  Right now I am just getting to know Ennis and Ellery, and I just started reading their story two nights ago.  I'm not sure how many of you posters here know that story, but I think it is wildly popular, over 30 pages of posts in 2-3 days about it?!!  Last night I cried more over that story (chapters 39 and 40) than I have cried over any other Brokeback moment in the past three months including the movie, the first time I watched it...  It was over Jack and Ennis that I was shedding tears, it had nothing to do with this Ellery dude BTW. Anyhow that is OT for this thread, just wanted to share that in case any of you want to read more about Jack and Ennis, and Ennis coming to terms with losing Jack, etc.

Ok, what I started to write here is:  often posters write that Ennis did not see himself as gay.  Well I have just one question:  Please to explain to me what he was talking about when he was warshing the dishes in the river, and he asked Jack "Do you ever get the feeling that people know?"

In my efforts to understand this beautiful tragical love story I have tried make sense of all the pieces of the puzzle, and I have found one way of putting the pieces together so that they all fit together, with just this one curious piece that don't quite fit right:  "....get the feeling that people know?  ....and then you go outside, and ever' one is lookin' at you like they all know too?"  It sounds to me like Ennis "knows" something about himself, that something being that Ennis knows he is gay.  That is how I interpret Ennis' words here.  How do you?

Jane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2006, 01:48:40 am »
But I don't think Ennis had any thought of "coming out" to the Twists; - I very much doubt he even considered the risk of being "outed". (But even if he did, he wouldn't have let that stop him.) I don't think he would have expected the Twists to have heard about him except perhaps as some casual "hunting buddy", so their level of knowledge about him must have come as a surprise. I think he hoped they'd just see his offer as a bona fide condolence visit and offer of help, nothing more.

But once he's there, he realizes that they do know - and yet, the heavens don't come crashing down. As the quote above says, he doesn't care. He discovers that horrible as it is, he can actually stand this. In the behaviour of Mr. Twist he meets the contempt of the world that he's always expected to meet, if the truth became known. But he finds that is not as horrible as he's always feared it would be; - there are worse things. And he also unexpectedly meets an outstretched hand - acceptance, compassion, respect. 

Ennis receives two posthumous and very precious gifts from Jack at Lightning Flat, that both go a long way towards putting Ennis's deepest fears to rest and giving him some measure of inner peace:  The shirts, proving to Ennis that Jack loved him all along until his death, when Ennis feared he didn't. And the Twists's behaviour towards Ennis, prompted by the knowledge that Jack had deposited with his parents, proving to Ennis in practice that he is able to stand being known as a queer, that he may actually survive people *knowing* about him, that he may well meet understanding, not only disgust.

I agree with all of this. Once again, Mikaela, beautifully put. To clarify my earlier post, I didn't mean to suggest that Ennis went to the Twists with the express purpose of coming out. I meant he undertook the risk of coming out in order to do right by Jack. You're right, it's possible it didn't occur to him that they would know enough to "know"  -- though back in his white-pickup-eyeing days, he probably would have worried about even the faint possibility that they'd figure it out.

In any case, the important thing is he quickly realizes they do know, and yet the world doesn't fall apart on either side. He remains calm, forgetting his fear and shame in order to focus on his grief. As for the Twists, they -- like everyone else in the movie who knows -- don't do anything harmful except, in Old Man Twist's case, be rude. But that's more than outweighed by Mrs. Twist's kindness and sympathy.


Offline dly64

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2006, 12:52:29 pm »
... often posters write that Ennis did not see himself as gay.  Well I have just one question:  Please to explain to me what he was talking about when he was warshing the dishes in the river, and he asked Jack "Do you ever get the feeling that people know?"

In my efforts to understand this beautiful tragical love story I have tried make sense of all the pieces of the puzzle, and I have found one way of putting the pieces together so that they all fit together, with just this one curious piece that don't quite fit right:  "....get the feeling that people know?  ....and then you go outside, and ever' one is lookin' at you like they all know too?"  It sounds to me like Ennis "knows" something about himself, that something being that Ennis knows he is gay.  That is how I interpret Ennis' words here.  How do you?

Jane

IMO, he is talking about his relationship specifically with Jack. When he and Alma have the confrontation in the kitchen, Ennis assumes Alma deduced he was having an affair with Jack (in another thread, I believe it was Mikaela who pointed this out as a way to "get back" at Ennis ... i.e. make him paranoid that others could figure it out, too). Ennis' paranoia does increase. He is trying to figure out how Alma would have known the nature of his and Jack's relationship (of course being oblivious to the fact that she actually saw them together).  Ennis asks Jack, "is everthing normal between you and Lureen?" (not sure if I quoted that exactly ... I don't have the book in front of me, but you can get the gest of their conversation).  Ennis figures that if Alma could figure it out, so could others.
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Offline welliwont

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2006, 03:06:55 am »
IMO, he is talking about his relationship specifically with Jack. When he and Alma have the confrontation in the kitchen, Ennis assumes Alma deduced he was having an affair with Jack (in another thread, I believe it was Mikaela who pointed this out as a way to "get back" at Ennis ... i.e. make him paranoid that others could figure it out, too). Ennis' paranoia does increase. He is trying to figure out how Alma would have known the nature of his and Jack's relationship (of course being oblivious to the fact that she actually saw them together).  Ennis asks Jack, "is everthing normal between you and Lureen?" (not sure if I quoted that exactly ... I don't have the book in front of me, but you can get the gest of their conversation).  Ennis figures that if Alma could figure it out, so could others.

Well I don't really agree with that interpretation, but probably other people will.   ;D  For some reason people do not follow my translations very often.  But however, I persist....  a 30-something relatively sane rational man asks his buddy, who BTW he is never ever seen together with, anywhere, except maybe at a gas station on the way to the mountains, asks him "do you ever get the feeling people know?"  He was not speaking of his acquaintances, co-ranch hands, children, etc.  He was speaking of strangers on the streets of town.  Why would Ennis be thinking of finishing that sentence with "people know ..... that you Jack, and me, we do it?" Where would that be coming from?

Whatever Oscam's Razer is, I heard about it here at BetterMost, I never looked it up yet, but isn't it something like the most logical explanation is the most likely?  I think Oscam's Razer fits here.  I think lots of closeted queer men often wonder if strangers can tell that they're queer just by looking at them.  That is not a far-fetched assumption.

And if Alma could figure it out?  Well she was his wife for twelve years, so Ennis must know that Alma could read him pretty well by then.  Just like he could read her voice at Thanksgiving by the kitchen sink, he know she had something powerful on her mind, or on her tongue to get out.  (I'm paraphrasing.)

Anyway I posted that post of mine here and on another thread, I think you are on the other thread as well.  In fact you wrote a detailed analysis of the fight scence point by point, and I have done the same, but I don't know where mine is!  ;)  I'll try to put my hands on it for you!  Basically we are both posing the same questions Diane!

Jane

« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 03:20:54 am by JakeTwist »
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Offline David

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2006, 06:54:12 am »
  "....get the feeling that people know?  ....and then you go outside, and ever' one is lookin' at you like they all know too?" 


I think this statement tells us that Ennis is aware that he cannot handle living two lives like Jack does.  He is trying to act "Straight" in society and yet is in love with Jack, a man.

Asking if "things are alright, normal like with Lureen?"    he is asking Jack if he is still able to be with his wife as a regular married man.   Something Ennis failed at with Alma.   

His continued paranoia over people finding out remains, but towards the end of the movie and the lake scene, he finally dumps Cassie because he wants Jack to be his one and only lover.

It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point.   Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least?   As long as he could keep Jack his secret.

That is why the lake scene fight is so important.     Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful.   Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.

Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too.   That last line he says is great: "Jack I can't stand it no more".   Stand it meaning : loving eachother without being able to be around eachother.

This is Ennis's "coming out".   When confronted with Jacks departure, he admits he wants more.    Thats is why we need Cassie in the movie.   We get to see him break it off with her. 

Ennis's biggest fear was people finding out and them getting killed.  So now he knows that if he loses Jack, that will be just as bad.    Then of course, before their next meeting Jack dies.

I don't think Ennis outed himself in Lightning Flat.   He was just fulfilling a buddys last wish. 

If anything,  Jacks parents "outed" Ennis!    But Ennis handled it well.   The past Ennis would have gotten red faced angry and stormed out of there!   You see his nostrils flare when the stud duck mentions Randall.   But Jacks Mom saves the moment with her remark to go up to Jacks room.   She wants him to find the shirts.    Trust me, if she didn't know those shirts were there, she'd have made a statement when she saw Ennis walk in the room with them. 

But she recognized them.  That is why she smiled and grabbed a bag.    Ennis left Happy, more or less.

So that wasn't a coming out.   It was more like the Twists new the secret.  Nothing more.

Ennis of course just retreats to his trailer both physically and emotionally.

Offline silkncense

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2006, 09:52:35 am »
Quote
It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point.   Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least?   As long as he could keep Jack his secret.

That is why the lake scene fight is so important.     Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful.   Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.

Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too.   

David -

I love you!  This is exactly how I saw the film.  The night before, Jack & Ennis were just two (fishing) buddies talking about affairs they were having w/ women.  And then Jack confesses to Ennis that "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Ennis simply let the statement pass - he still could not admit the same thing.  Didn't know how to handle it any better than in the motel scene.

But, when he fears he is loosing Jack the next morning, his body betrays him.  The truth takes over & he collapses.  This was not an instant where he voluntarily knelt to the ground to cry - he was totally out of control physically.  This is the point, IMO, where Ennis truly realized that he not only loved Jack (as a best friend, as a sexual partner) but that he was IN LOVE with Jack & could not bear to loose him.
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Offline Kd5000

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2006, 12:15:58 pm »
Do you think Mr. Twist's mention of Jack's talk of bringing up another man and how he was going to leave his wife was a jab at Ennis or was Mr. Twist just being matter of fact??
Obviouly, Ennis is clearly hurt, a feeling of possible betrayal.  The last thing he needed to hear about was another man.   Of course, Mrs Twist lets her husband do the talking and I'm sure Ennis was glad to hear that Jack had mentioned him to his parent.
-----------------------------
Regarding Mrs. Twist,

I just thought the way Jack's mom expressed to Ennis "you are welcome to go to his room..." was spoken by her in a most serious and almost painful manner was particularly touching. She didn't ask or confront Ennis about the nature of his relationship with her son, but her tone of voice was most respectful.

Afterall, she practically kept the room almost as a shrine to her son's boyhood (she had not clearned it out, donated his clothes to a charity, etc) and by giving permission for Ennis to go there, it was validation, from her point of view, of what was between Ennis and Jack.

I think it was the only validation or social approval that Ennis will ever from his "world" of the relationship he had with Jack had. Hence, it did make his trip worthwhile, getting the shirts and getting some sort of support from Jack's mom. And I do agree, Ennis at this point is so grief stricken, he doesn't realize how transparent he is, so to speak.

 

Offline dly64

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2006, 06:29:35 pm »
....  a 30-something relatively sane rational man asks his buddy, who BTW he is never ever seen together with, anywhere, except maybe at a gas station on the way to the mountains, asks him "do you ever get the feeling people know?"  He was not speaking of his acquaintances, co-ranch hands, children, etc.  He was speaking of strangers on the streets of town.  Why would Ennis be thinking of finishing that sentence with "people know ..... that you Jack, and me, we do it?" Where would that be coming from?

Whatever Oscam's Razer is, I heard about it here at BetterMost, I never looked it up yet, but isn't it something like the most logical explanation is the most likely?  I think Oscam's Razer fits here.  I think lots of closeted queer men often wonder if strangers can tell that they're queer just by looking at them.  That is not a far-fetched assumption.

I see where you are coming from, but I don't buy it. Here is the difference (it sounds like I am splitting hairs, but I am not) .... it is one thing to be paranoid that strangers think a person is gay and a completely different issue to admit to being gay. Ennis is having an affair with a man. Ennis doesn't understand why .... he describes it as "this thing." The whole relationship is an anomoly. Ennis asks Jack if everything is normal between him and Lureen because if Alma could figure it out, it must have been something he did. Also note the scene when Jack approaches the clown in the bar .... at that moment in his life, he doesn't see himself as gay ... yet he is sure those guys are talking about him. When a person has a secret life, it is common to think others know ... that somehow your reality is seeping out. It is the fear of being "found out".  It doesn't mean, "OMG! I'm gay and everyone knows it".



I think this statement tells us that Ennis is aware that he cannot handle living two lives like Jack does.  He is trying to act "Straight" in society and yet is in love with Jack, a man.

Asking if "things are alright, normal like with Lureen?"    he is asking Jack if he is still able to be with his wife as a regular married man.   Something Ennis failed at with Alma.  

His continued paranoia over people finding out remains, but towards the end of the movie and the lake scene, he finally dumps Cassie because he wants Jack to be his one and only lover.

It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point.   Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least?   As long as he could keep Jack his secret.

That is why the lake scene fight is so important.     Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful.   Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.

Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too.   That last line he says is great: "Jack I can't stand it no more".   Stand it meaning : loving eachother without being able to be around eachother.

Let me clairfy ... I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying. The issue regarding Lureen and Jack being "normal"  ...  does Lureen suspect he is having an affair? Is his sex life normal with Lureen? If that is what you are saying, I agree. It is not that she might suspect Jack is having an affair with a man, but that she might suspect he is having an affair, period.

The lake scene, IMO, is when Ennis realizes he loves Jack. That does not mean, however, that he admits he is gay or bisexual. He loves Jack ... he's never loved another man. He's never had sex with another man. He has never wanted to be with another man. IMO, he blames Jack for his feelings. If it wouldn't be for Jack, he would be "blissfully" living a "normal" life.

On your last point ... the whole "I can't stand this anymore, Jack"  ... I have posted this before, but will reiterate it briefly here. I see the whole "I can't stand it" as a bookends to their relationship from the time of their reunion until the lake scene. When they are on the mountains and Ennis is talking about seeing each other once in awhile. Ennis later says to Jack, "If you can't fix it, Jack, you gotta stand it." Jack asks "how long?" and Ennis says, "As long as we can ride it. Their ain't no reins on this one." Then, at the lake, Jack says to Ennis, "Tell you what ... the truth is ... sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." (In one of the most poignant and painful lines in the whole film, IMO.) Lastly, Ennis breaks down into Jack's arms and says , "I can't stand this anymore Jack." (BTW - Ennis collapses post mountain when he sees Jack leave. He then collapses again, this time in Jack's arms. Again, I find this to be bookends in their relationship.)

The "I can't stand it" is on both of their parts. They both can hardly handle living a lie, having a secret and being away from each other. Despite this, Ennis' homophobia would prevent him from living an open life with Jack. However, he has gotten to the point where he understands that the love of his life is Jack. Ultimately, it is too late. He loses Jack anyway.

Diane

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Offline welliwont

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2006, 08:59:38 pm »
I see where you are coming from, but I don't buy it. Here is the difference (it sounds like I am splitting hairs, but I am not) .... it is one thing to be paranoid that strangers think a person is gay and a completely different issue to admit to being gay. Ennis is having an affair with a man. Ennis doesn't understand why .... he describes it as "this thing." The whole relationship is an anomoly. Ennis asks Jack if everything is normal between him and Lureen because if Alma could figure it out, it must have been something he did. Also note the scene when Jack approaches the clown in the bar .... at that moment in his life, he doesn't see himself as gay ... yet he is sure those guys are talking about him. When a person has a secret life, it is common to think others know ... that somehow your reality is seeping out. It is the fear of being "found out".  It doesn't mean, "OMG! I'm gay and everyone knows it".


Let me clairfy ... I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying. The issue regarding Lureen and Jack being "normal"  ...  does Lureen suspect he is having an affair? Is his sex life normal with Lureen? If that is what you are saying, I agree. It is not that she might suspect Jack is having an affair with a man, but that she might suspect he is having an affair, period.

The lake scene, IMO, is when Ennis realizes he loves Jack. That does not mean, however, that he admits he is gay or bisexual. He loves Jack ... he's never loved another man. He's never had sex with another man. He has never wanted to be with another man. IMO, he blames Jack for his feelings. If it wouldn't be for Jack, he would be "blissfully" living a "normal" life.

On your last point ... the whole "I can't stand this anymore, Jack"  ... I have posted this before, but will reiterate it briefly here. I see the whole "I can't stand it" as a bookends to their relationship from the time of their reunion until the lake scene. When they are on the mountains and Ennis is talking about seeing each other once in awhile. Ennis later says to Jack, "If you can't fix it, Jack, you gotta stand it." Jack asks "how long?" and Ennis says, "As long as we can ride it. Their ain't no reins on this one." Then, at the lake, Jack says to Ennis, "Tell you what ... the truth is ... sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." (In one of the most poignant and painful lines in the whole film, IMO.) Lastly, Ennis breaks down into Jack's arms and says , "I can't stand this anymore Jack." (BTW - Ennis collapses post mountain when he sees Jack leave. He then collapses again, this time in Jack's arms. Again, I find this to be bookends in their relationship.)

The "I can't stand it" is on both of their parts. They both can hardly handle living a lie, having a secret and being away from each other. Despite this, Ennis' homophobia would prevent him from living an open life with Jack. However, he has gotten to the point where he understands that the love of his life is Jack. Ultimately, it is too late. He loses Jack anyway.



Well this is just great!! I have been working on a big long reply / question about all of this to DavidnHartford, pages and pages, couldn't even keep my eyes open for gettin' just 3 to 4 hours sleep a night this week 'cause a BetterMost, had to break to sleep for a coupla hours, and I come back to the sheep, and Diane you have posted this, and now my post don't hardly make any sense a'tall!! humph!    :( ::)  :);D

Oh well Diane, I cannot address all of your points, so I'll say this just once:

Quote
it is one thing to be paranoid that strangers think a person is gay and a completely different issue to admit to being gay

(yes Diane, I can understand that....  I don't think we are ever gonna see eye to eye on this, but for what it's worth:)

It's one thing for Ennis to be paranoid that strangers know, and a completely different issue for Ennis to admit (to himself) to being gay.

Ok, I see that there is logic in that, BUT now I'm putting myself in Ennis' position, "I am paranoid that the strangers on the street think I am gay.  I do not admit to myself that I am gay."

So how can Ennis overlook all them things that he and Jack do together, which I will call gay sex acts??!!  I guess I would call it being in denial, and deluding himself, if he cannot realize that the stuff he and Jack do makes him a queer!!   aaaaaaaaarrrrghhhhhhhhhhh!!!

Ah Diane, I think I am going round and round the mulberry bush with this movie, I used to think I would be able to understand and explain the movie, both the characters, all the ambiguities, to wrap it all up in a nice little package to myself, "there!  this is what this means, this is what the movie is all about...."  Ironically I was asking this identical question 2.5 months ago on IMDb when I first saw the movie.  I guess I haven't come much further than that.

J
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Offline welliwont

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2006, 09:11:10 pm »
Hello David!

I am so glad you have addressed my post  ;D and answered my questions in it...

I have one or two questions back to you now.... but first I will agree with almost everything that you wrote:


I think this statement tells us that Ennis is aware that he cannot handle living two lives like Jack does.  He is trying to act "Straight" in society and yet is in love with Jack, a man.

Asking if "things are alright, normal like with Lureen?"    he is asking Jack if he is still able to be with his wife as a regular married man.   Something Ennis failed at with Alma.   

His continued paranoia over people finding out remains, but towards the end of the movie and the lake scene, he finally dumps Cassie because he wants Jack to be his one and only lover.

It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point.   Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least?   As long as he could keep Jack his secret.


yep, yep, yep and yep.  This all fits for me....



That is why the lake scene fight is so important.     Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful.   Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.

yep agin, that works, I mean I agree with that...

Quote
Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too.   That last line he says is great: "Jack I can't stand it no more".   Stand it meaning : loving each other without being able to be around each other.


Ok David, now this I need to question.  I bolded your statement, and I would like to rebut here:  If he can't stand it without being able to be around each other, than WTF, Ennis is the one who is making himself unavailable!!!  hunh?? ??? ???  Has this guy got multiple personalities, or whut?? ???  :laugh:

<<Ennis:  "Jack, sorry, but I can't see you until November, six months from now,......(five minute time lapse)...  boo hoo hoo, I can't stand loving you without being around you, boo hoo hoo.">>

Sorry David, that answer does not compute!   ;)

I realize my arguments are very shall we say amateur,  but I am being very direct here, not layering them in a lot of deep analysis, (which I can see coming at me, and I am not as good at expressing as some of the deep thinkers here on this thread),  but nevertheless, I am taking Ennis' statements and actions, and Jack's statements and actions at face value and trying to reconcile them, or fit them all together into a puzzle that works. 

This post went on and on and on, but I had to cut everthing beyond this point because it was not explained very well, but  at least I did not junk the whole post.....

Jane
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Offline dly64

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2006, 09:44:53 pm »
I realize my arguments are very shall we say amateur,  but I am being very direct here, not layering them in a lot of deep analysis, (which I can see coming at me, and I am not as good at expressing as some of the deep thinkers here on this thread),  but nevertheless, I am taking Ennis' statements and actions, and Jack's statements and actions at face value and trying to reconcile them, or fit them all together into a puzzle that works. 

Jane, Jane, Jane ..... don't discount yourself. I really enjoy hearing all of your insights (and yes, they are insights).  ;)

Ah Diane, I think I am going round and round the mulberry bush with this movie, I used to think I would be able to understand and explain the movie, both the characters, all the ambiguities, to wrap it all up in a nice little package to myself, "there!  this is what this means, this is what the movie is all about...."  Ironically I was asking this identical question 2.5 months ago on IMDb when I first saw the movie.  I guess I haven't come much further than that.


Here is the crack up .... before I started posting on IMDb and then on BetterMost, I was 100% convinced that my  point of view was the correct one. Then I starting reading the boards. YIKES! I think I changed my opinion 100 times or more. I just get a high from discussing this film. It's too much fun to hear other's point of view ... ya know what I mean???   ;D
Diane

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Offline welliwont

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2006, 11:36:34 pm »

Here is the crack up .... before I started posting on IMDb and then on BetterMost, I was 100% convinced that my  point of view was the correct one. Then I starting reading the boards. YIKES! I think I changed my opinion 100 times or more. I just get a high from discussing this film. It's too much fun to hear other's point of view ... ya know what I mean???   ;D

Thanks for the kind words Diane.  I don't mean for you to think that I want to sway anyone, I am not interested in making people see it my way, I just want to understand it.  I realize that this movie can mean different things to different people, but for me I just wanted to define it to myself, for myself.  I am as puzzle solver, and I wanted to crack the puzzle.

Here is something from a couple of days ago that really highlights to me that astounding diversity of the human race, and I find it quite funny (wrong word).  I was the lucky second poster to a thread started by Mel (nakymaton) which I appreciated as an excellent original idea for a new thread.  Now here was an aspect of the film that I thought was pretty clearcut, straightforward, not so ambiguous.  I never thought that there could multiple interpretations the single sentence "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe etc etc etc."  Well!!!  was I wrong!  LOL

It was a pice of cake to whip off a quick response, this is a facet of this depthless story that I have no difficulty in defining to myself.  I thought, now for sure people are going to write back "yeah I agree 100%, yeah that's what I think too, exactly what I was goin to write, etc etc."  HAHAHAHA I never came up with any of the other interpretations that have been suggested, and I think that some of them are quite good, to the point now of asking myself, "well which one is it, is mine not the one?  humhmmm..."

I haven't looked at the thread since this morning, but so far not one person has interpreted that line the way I have.  That kills me! :laugh: :laugh:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2973.0;all

So no, I am not trying to influence anybody's opinion, just to understand this masterpiece of a film.

Peace out.

J
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline dly64

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Re: Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2006, 03:22:43 pm »
Thanks for the kind words Diane.  I don't mean for you to think that I want to sway anyone, I am not interested in making people see it my way, I just want to understand it.  I realize that this movie can mean different things to different people, but for me I just wanted to define it to myself, for myself.  I am as puzzle solver, and I wanted to crack the puzzle.

Ditto! I have come to the conclusion (and that's why this film is so great) that there are many interpretations ... all which can be plausable.

Quote
Here is something from a couple of days ago that really highlights to me that astounding diversity of the human race, and I find it quite funny (wrong word).  I was the lucky second poster to a thread started by Mel (nakymaton) which I appreciated as an excellent original idea for a new thread.  Now here was an aspect of the film that I thought was pretty clearcut, straightforward, not so ambiguous.  I never thought that there could multiple interpretations the single sentence "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe etc etc etc."  Well!!!  was I wrong!  LOL

It was a pice of cake to whip off a quick response, this is a facet of this depthless story that I have no difficulty in defining to myself.  I thought, now for sure people are going to write back "yeah I agree 100%, yeah that's what I think too, exactly what I was goin to write, etc etc."  HAHAHAHA I never came up with any of the other interpretations that have been suggested, and I think that some of them are quite good, to the point now of asking myself, "well which one is it, is mine not the one?  humhmmm..."

I haven't looked at the thread since this morning, but so far not one person has interpreted that line the way I have.  That kills me! :laugh: :laugh:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2973.0;all

So no, I am not trying to influence anybody's opinion, just to understand this masterpiece of a film.

Peace out.J

Okay, Jane ... you started it now. I have posted on that thread, too. Another fun topic to discuss!
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."