Since Ennis was so closeted, why did he out himself to the Twists?

[dly64]

Why does Ennis, who is so paranoid of being found out, expose his and Jack’s relationship to Jack’s parents?  By going to the Twist ranch Ennis should have realized that he was going to give the Twists something to think about, hell they might possibly even make the connection that Ennis was queer as was their son!  Ennis must have wondered about whether Jack’s parents knew or did not know that their son was queer.

We already know that Jack was very private and did not spread personal information about the two of them, so presumably Ennis knew that Jack was discreet in that way.  So instead of going to the Twists', why did he not write them a letter instead, or make his offer in a telephone call, about taking the ashes up to Brokeback, I mean.

This thread is dedicated to Katherine!

IMO, Ennis did not see himself as gay. What he did know, however, was that he loved Jack. It was important for him to get Jack's ashes and scatter them on BBM. The short story says, after Jack's dad refuses to let the ashes go:

"Bumping down the washboard road Ennis passed the country cemetary fenced with sagging sheep wire, a tiny fenced square on the welling prairie, a few graves with plastic flowers, and didn't want to know that Jack was going in there, to be buried on the grieving plain."

BBM symbolized freedom for Ennis and Jack. Freedom from prying eyes, freedom to be themselves without fear ... the feeling they were "invisible". The romantic in me thinks that Ennis wanted to scatter Jack's ashes on BBM so that when Ennis died he, too, would have his ashes scattered on BBM and they could finally be together forever.

I think both Twists knew Jack was gay. I also believe Jack's mother knew about the shirts. That is why she invited him to go up to Jack's room. (OT - at the lake scene before their row - Jack says he's going up to Lightning flat to see his folks for a couple of days. My feeling is he didn't go to visit his parents. He went to be close to something that belonged to Ennis).

I like how Roger Ebert describes this scene:

A closing scene involving a visit by Ennis to Jack's parents is heartbreaking in what is said, and not said, about their world. A look around Jack's childhood bedroom suggests what he overcame to make room for his feelings.

(Bear with me folks ... I am the queen of quotes.)

[welliwont]

IMO, Ennis did not see himself as gay.

If I had a nickel for ever' one who said that...

I am on the fence on a lot of these matters, I LOVE Jake I mean Jack and Ennis, *sigh*.  Right now I am just getting to know Ennis and Ellery, and I just started reading their story two nights ago.  I'm not sure how many of you posters here know that story, but I think it is wildly popular, over 30 pages of posts in 2-3 days about it?!!  Last night I cried more over that story (chapters 39 and 40) than I have cried over any other Brokeback moment in the past three months including the movie, the first time I watched it...  It was over Jack and Ennis that I was shedding tears, it had nothing to do with this Ellery dude BTW. Anyhow that is OT for this thread, just wanted to share that in case any of you want to read more about Jack and Ennis, and Ennis coming to terms with losing Jack, etc.

Ok, what I started to write here is:  often posters write that Ennis did not see himself as gay.  Well I have just one question:  Please to explain to me what he was talking about when he was warshing the dishes in the river, and he asked Jack "Do you ever get the feeling that people know?"

In my efforts to understand this beautiful tragical love story I have tried make sense of all the pieces of the puzzle, and I have found one way of putting the pieces together so that they all fit together, with just this one curious piece that don't quite fit right:  "....get the feeling that people know?  ....and then you go outside, and ever' one is lookin' at you like they all know too?"  It sounds to me like Ennis "knows" something about himself, that something being that Ennis knows he is gay.  That is how I interpret Ennis' words here.  How do you?

Jane

[serious crayons]

But I don't think Ennis had any thought of "coming out" to the Twists; - I very much doubt he even considered the risk of being "outed". (But even if he did, he wouldn't have let that stop him.) I don't think he would have expected the Twists to have heard about him except perhaps as some casual "hunting buddy", so their level of knowledge about him must have come as a surprise. I think he hoped they'd just see his offer as a bona fide condolence visit and offer of help, nothing more.

But once he's there, he realizes that they do know - and yet, the heavens don't come crashing down. As the quote above says, he doesn't care. He discovers that horrible as it is, he can actually stand this. In the behaviour of Mr. Twist he meets the contempt of the world that he's always expected to meet, if the truth became known. But he finds that is not as horrible as he's always feared it would be; - there are worse things. And he also unexpectedly meets an outstretched hand - acceptance, compassion, respect. 

Ennis receives two posthumous and very precious gifts from Jack at Lightning Flat, that both go a long way towards putting Ennis's deepest fears to rest and giving him some measure of inner peace:  The shirts, proving to Ennis that Jack loved him all along until his death, when Ennis feared he didn't. And the Twists's behaviour towards Ennis, prompted by the knowledge that Jack had deposited with his parents, proving to Ennis in practice that he is able to stand being known as a queer, that he may actually survive people *knowing* about him, that he may well meet understanding, not only disgust.

I agree with all of this. Once again, Mikaela, beautifully put. To clarify my earlier post, I didn't mean to suggest that Ennis went to the Twists with the express purpose of coming out. I meant he undertook the risk of coming out in order to do right by Jack. You're right, it's possible it didn't occur to him that they would know enough to "know"  -- though back in his white-pickup-eyeing days, he probably would have worried about even the faint possibility that they'd figure it out.

In any case, the important thing is he quickly realizes they do know, and yet the world doesn't fall apart on either side. He remains calm, forgetting his fear and shame in order to focus on his grief. As for the Twists, they -- like everyone else in the movie who knows -- don't do anything harmful except, in Old Man Twist's case, be rude. But that's more than outweighed by Mrs. Twist's kindness and sympathy.

[dly64]

... often posters write that Ennis did not see himself as gay.  Well I have just one question:  Please to explain to me what he was talking about when he was warshing the dishes in the river, and he asked Jack "Do you ever get the feeling that people know?"

In my efforts to understand this beautiful tragical love story I have tried make sense of all the pieces of the puzzle, and I have found one way of putting the pieces together so that they all fit together, with just this one curious piece that don't quite fit right:  "....get the feeling that people know?  ....and then you go outside, and ever' one is lookin' at you like they all know too?"  It sounds to me like Ennis "knows" something about himself, that something being that Ennis knows he is gay.  That is how I interpret Ennis' words here.  How do you?

Jane

IMO, he is talking about his relationship specifically with Jack. When he and Alma have the confrontation in the kitchen, Ennis assumes Alma deduced he was having an affair with Jack (in another thread, I believe it was Mikaela who pointed this out as a way to "get back" at Ennis ... i.e. make him paranoid that others could figure it out, too). Ennis' paranoia does increase. He is trying to figure out how Alma would have known the nature of his and Jack's relationship (of course being oblivious to the fact that she actually saw them together).  Ennis asks Jack, "is everthing normal between you and Lureen?" (not sure if I quoted that exactly ... I don't have the book in front of me, but you can get the gest of their conversation).  Ennis figures that if Alma could figure it out, so could others.

[welliwont]

IMO, he is talking about his relationship specifically with Jack. When he and Alma have the confrontation in the kitchen, Ennis assumes Alma deduced he was having an affair with Jack (in another thread, I believe it was Mikaela who pointed this out as a way to "get back" at Ennis ... i.e. make him paranoid that others could figure it out, too). Ennis' paranoia does increase. He is trying to figure out how Alma would have known the nature of his and Jack's relationship (of course being oblivious to the fact that she actually saw them together).  Ennis asks Jack, "is everthing normal between you and Lureen?" (not sure if I quoted that exactly ... I don't have the book in front of me, but you can get the gest of their conversation).  Ennis figures that if Alma could figure it out, so could others.

Well I don't really agree with that interpretation, but probably other people will.     For some reason people do not follow my translations very often.  But however, I persist....  a 30-something relatively sane rational man asks his buddy, who BTW he is never ever seen together with, anywhere, except maybe at a gas station on the way to the mountains, asks him "do you ever get the feeling people know?"  He was not speaking of his acquaintances, co-ranch hands, children, etc.  He was speaking of strangers on the streets of town.  Why would Ennis be thinking of finishing that sentence with "people know ..... that you Jack, and me, we do it?" Where would that be coming from?

Whatever Oscam's Razer is, I heard about it here at BetterMost, I never looked it up yet, but isn't it something like the most logical explanation is the most likely?  I think Oscam's Razer fits here.  I think lots of closeted queer men often wonder if strangers can tell that they're queer just by looking at them.  That is not a far-fetched assumption.

And if Alma could figure it out?  Well she was his wife for twelve years, so Ennis must know that Alma could read him pretty well by then.  Just like he could read her voice at Thanksgiving by the kitchen sink, he know she had something powerful on her mind, or on her tongue to get out.  (I'm paraphrasing.)

Anyway I posted that post of mine here and on another thread, I think you are on the other thread as well.  In fact you wrote a detailed analysis of the fight scence point by point, and I have done the same, but I don't know where mine is!    I'll try to put my hands on it for you!  Basically we are both posing the same questions Diane!

Jane

[David]

  "....get the feeling that people know?  ....and then you go outside, and ever' one is lookin' at you like they all know too?" 

I think this statement tells us that Ennis is aware that he cannot handle living two lives like Jack does.  He is trying to act "Straight" in society and yet is in love with Jack, a man.

Asking if "things are alright, normal like with Lureen?"    he is asking Jack if he is still able to be with his wife as a regular married man.   Something Ennis failed at with Alma.   

His continued paranoia over people finding out remains, but towards the end of the movie and the lake scene, he finally dumps Cassie because he wants Jack to be his one and only lover.

It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point.   Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least?   As long as he could keep Jack his secret.

That is why the lake scene fight is so important.     Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful.   Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.

Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too.   That last line he says is great: "Jack I can't stand it no more".   Stand it meaning : loving eachother without being able to be around eachother.

This is Ennis's "coming out".   When confronted with Jacks departure, he admits he wants more.    Thats is why we need Cassie in the movie.   We get to see him break it off with her. 

Ennis's biggest fear was people finding out and them getting killed.  So now he knows that if he loses Jack, that will be just as bad.    Then of course, before their next meeting Jack dies.

I don't think Ennis outed himself in Lightning Flat.   He was just fulfilling a buddys last wish. 

If anything,  Jacks parents "outed" Ennis!    But Ennis handled it well.   The past Ennis would have gotten red faced angry and stormed out of there!   You see his nostrils flare when the stud duck mentions Randall.   But Jacks Mom saves the moment with her remark to go up to Jacks room.   She wants him to find the shirts.    Trust me, if she didn't know those shirts were there, she'd have made a statement when she saw Ennis walk in the room with them. 

But she recognized them.  That is why she smiled and grabbed a bag.    Ennis left Happy, more or less.

So that wasn't a coming out.   It was more like the Twists new the secret.  Nothing more.

Ennis of course just retreats to his trailer both physically and emotionally.

[silkncense]

It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point.   Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least?   As long as he could keep Jack his secret.

That is why the lake scene fight is so important.     Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful.   Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.

Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too.   

David -

I love you!  This is exactly how I saw the film.  The night before, Jack & Ennis were just two (fishing) buddies talking about affairs they were having w/ women.  And then Jack confesses to Ennis that "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Ennis simply let the statement pass - he still could not admit the same thing.  Didn't know how to handle it any better than in the motel scene.

But, when he fears he is loosing Jack the next morning, his body betrays him.  The truth takes over & he collapses.  This was not an instant where he voluntarily knelt to the ground to cry - he was totally out of control physically.  This is the point, IMO, where Ennis truly realized that he not only loved Jack (as a best friend, as a sexual partner) but that he was IN LOVE with Jack & could not bear to loose him.

[Kd5000]

Do you think Mr. Twist's mention of Jack's talk of bringing up another man and how he was going to leave his wife was a jab at Ennis or was Mr. Twist just being matter of fact??
Obviouly, Ennis is clearly hurt, a feeling of possible betrayal.  The last thing he needed to hear about was another man.   Of course, Mrs Twist lets her husband do the talking and I'm sure Ennis was glad to hear that Jack had mentioned him to his parent.
-----------------------------
Regarding Mrs. Twist,

I just thought the way Jack's mom expressed to Ennis "you are welcome to go to his room..." was spoken by her in a most serious and almost painful manner was particularly touching. She didn't ask or confront Ennis about the nature of his relationship with her son, but her tone of voice was most respectful.

Afterall, she practically kept the room almost as a shrine to her son's boyhood (she had not clearned it out, donated his clothes to a charity, etc) and by giving permission for Ennis to go there, it was validation, from her point of view, of what was between Ennis and Jack.

I think it was the only validation or social approval that Ennis will ever from his "world" of the relationship he had with Jack had. Hence, it did make his trip worthwhile, getting the shirts and getting some sort of support from Jack's mom. And I do agree, Ennis at this point is so grief stricken, he doesn't realize how transparent he is, so to speak.

 

[dly64]

....  a 30-something relatively sane rational man asks his buddy, who BTW he is never ever seen together with, anywhere, except maybe at a gas station on the way to the mountains, asks him "do you ever get the feeling people know?"  He was not speaking of his acquaintances, co-ranch hands, children, etc.  He was speaking of strangers on the streets of town.  Why would Ennis be thinking of finishing that sentence with "people know ..... that you Jack, and me, we do it?" Where would that be coming from?

Whatever Oscam's Razer is, I heard about it here at BetterMost, I never looked it up yet, but isn't it something like the most logical explanation is the most likely?  I think Oscam's Razer fits here.  I think lots of closeted queer men often wonder if strangers can tell that they're queer just by looking at them.  That is not a far-fetched assumption.

I see where you are coming from, but I don't buy it. Here is the difference (it sounds like I am splitting hairs, but I am not) .... it is one thing to be paranoid that strangers think a person is gay and a completely different issue to admit to being gay. Ennis is having an affair with a man. Ennis doesn't understand why .... he describes it as "this thing." The whole relationship is an anomoly. Ennis asks Jack if everything is normal between him and Lureen because if Alma could figure it out, it must have been something he did. Also note the scene when Jack approaches the clown in the bar .... at that moment in his life, he doesn't see himself as gay ... yet he is sure those guys are talking about him. When a person has a secret life, it is common to think others know ... that somehow your reality is seeping out. It is the fear of being "found out".  It doesn't mean, "OMG! I'm gay and everyone knows it".

I think this statement tells us that Ennis is aware that he cannot handle living two lives like Jack does.  He is trying to act "Straight" in society and yet is in love with Jack, a man.

Asking if "things are alright, normal like with Lureen?"    he is asking Jack if he is still able to be with his wife as a regular married man.   Something Ennis failed at with Alma.  

His continued paranoia over people finding out remains, but towards the end of the movie and the lake scene, he finally dumps Cassie because he wants Jack to be his one and only lover.

It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point.   Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least?   As long as he could keep Jack his secret.

That is why the lake scene fight is so important.     Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful.   Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.

Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too.   That last line he says is great: "Jack I can't stand it no more".   Stand it meaning : loving eachother without being able to be around eachother.

Let me clairfy ... I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying. The issue regarding Lureen and Jack being "normal"  ...  does Lureen suspect he is having an affair? Is his sex life normal with Lureen? If that is what you are saying, I agree. It is not that she might suspect Jack is having an affair with a man, but that she might suspect he is having an affair, period.

The lake scene, IMO, is when Ennis realizes he loves Jack. That does not mean, however, that he admits he is gay or bisexual. He loves Jack ... he's never loved another man. He's never had sex with another man. He has never wanted to be with another man. IMO, he blames Jack for his feelings. If it wouldn't be for Jack, he would be "blissfully" living a "normal" life.

On your last point ... the whole "I can't stand this anymore, Jack"  ... I have posted this before, but will reiterate it briefly here. I see the whole "I can't stand it" as a bookends to their relationship from the time of their reunion until the lake scene. When they are on the mountains and Ennis is talking about seeing each other once in awhile. Ennis later says to Jack, "If you can't fix it, Jack, you gotta stand it." Jack asks "how long?" and Ennis says, "As long as we can ride it. Their ain't no reins on this one." Then, at the lake, Jack says to Ennis, "Tell you what ... the truth is ... sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." (In one of the most poignant and painful lines in the whole film, IMO.) Lastly, Ennis breaks down into Jack's arms and says , "I can't stand this anymore Jack." (BTW - Ennis collapses post mountain when he sees Jack leave. He then collapses again, this time in Jack's arms. Again, I find this to be bookends in their relationship.)

The "I can't stand it" is on both of their parts. They both can hardly handle living a lie, having a secret and being away from each other. Despite this, Ennis' homophobia would prevent him from living an open life with Jack. However, he has gotten to the point where he understands that the love of his life is Jack. Ultimately, it is too late. He loses Jack anyway.

[welliwont]

I see where you are coming from, but I don't buy it. Here is the difference (it sounds like I am splitting hairs, but I am not) .... it is one thing to be paranoid that strangers think a person is gay and a completely different issue to admit to being gay. Ennis is having an affair with a man. Ennis doesn't understand why .... he describes it as "this thing." The whole relationship is an anomoly. Ennis asks Jack if everything is normal between him and Lureen because if Alma could figure it out, it must have been something he did. Also note the scene when Jack approaches the clown in the bar .... at that moment in his life, he doesn't see himself as gay ... yet he is sure those guys are talking about him. When a person has a secret life, it is common to think others know ... that somehow your reality is seeping out. It is the fear of being "found out".  It doesn't mean, "OMG! I'm gay and everyone knows it".


Let me clairfy ... I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying. The issue regarding Lureen and Jack being "normal"  ...  does Lureen suspect he is having an affair? Is his sex life normal with Lureen? If that is what you are saying, I agree. It is not that she might suspect Jack is having an affair with a man, but that she might suspect he is having an affair, period.

The lake scene, IMO, is when Ennis realizes he loves Jack. That does not mean, however, that he admits he is gay or bisexual. He loves Jack ... he's never loved another man. He's never had sex with another man. He has never wanted to be with another man. IMO, he blames Jack for his feelings. If it wouldn't be for Jack, he would be "blissfully" living a "normal" life.

On your last point ... the whole "I can't stand this anymore, Jack"  ... I have posted this before, but will reiterate it briefly here. I see the whole "I can't stand it" as a bookends to their relationship from the time of their reunion until the lake scene. When they are on the mountains and Ennis is talking about seeing each other once in awhile. Ennis later says to Jack, "If you can't fix it, Jack, you gotta stand it." Jack asks "how long?" and Ennis says, "As long as we can ride it. Their ain't no reins on this one." Then, at the lake, Jack says to Ennis, "Tell you what ... the truth is ... sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." (In one of the most poignant and painful lines in the whole film, IMO.) Lastly, Ennis breaks down into Jack's arms and says , "I can't stand this anymore Jack." (BTW - Ennis collapses post mountain when he sees Jack leave. He then collapses again, this time in Jack's arms. Again, I find this to be bookends in their relationship.)

The "I can't stand it" is on both of their parts. They both can hardly handle living a lie, having a secret and being away from each other. Despite this, Ennis' homophobia would prevent him from living an open life with Jack. However, he has gotten to the point where he understands that the love of his life is Jack. Ultimately, it is too late. He loses Jack anyway.

Well this is just great!! I have been working on a big long reply / question about all of this to DavidnHartford, pages and pages, couldn't even keep my eyes open for gettin' just 3 to 4 hours sleep a night this week 'cause a BetterMost, had to break to sleep for a coupla hours, and I come back to the sheep, and Diane you have posted this, and now my post don't hardly make any sense a'tall!! humph!     

Oh well Diane, I cannot address all of your points, so I'll say this just once:

it is one thing to be paranoid that strangers think a person is gay and a completely different issue to admit to being gay

(yes Diane, I can understand that....  I don't think we are ever gonna see eye to eye on this, but for what it's worth:)

It's one thing for Ennis to be paranoid that strangers know, and a completely different issue for Ennis to admit (to himself) to being gay.

Ok, I see that there is logic in that, BUT now I'm putting myself in Ennis' position, "I am paranoid that the strangers on the street think I am gay.  I do not admit to myself that I am gay."

So how can Ennis overlook all them things that he and Jack do together, which I will call gay sex acts??!!  I guess I would call it being in denial, and deluding himself, if he cannot realize that the stuff he and Jack do makes him a queer!!   aaaaaaaaarrrrghhhhhhhhhhh!!!

Ah Diane, I think I am going round and round the mulberry bush with this movie, I used to think I would be able to understand and explain the movie, both the characters, all the ambiguities, to wrap it all up in a nice little package to myself, "there!  this is what this means, this is what the movie is all about...."  Ironically I was asking this identical question 2.5 months ago on IMDb when I first saw the movie.  I guess I haven't come much further than that.

J