"I figured you were sore from that punch"

[Brown Eyes]

So, I've been thinking a little bit tonight about the somewhat serious topic of the punch at the end of the Brokeback summer.  I'd be curious to hear what people really think about that situation.  I think we've all thought a lot about all the complicated motivations that led Ennis to feel so upset at this particular moment, in contrast to Jack's relatively playful mood.  But, what justifies a punch like that?    Somehow this moment of violence has never tainted my idea of how much Ennis and Jack love each other.  In my real life, it's clear to me that there's never, ever a reason to hit one's lover (regardless of gender). But somehow this moment in BBM, again, hasn't tainted how I feel about this particular relationship between Ennis and Jack. 

I think it's adorable that they both seem to like "rough-housing", wrestling, etc.  My guess is that the ability to be rough with one another is a big part of the attraction between the two of them... The contrast between the kind of "tussling" that Jack and Ennis do on the mountain vs. the gentle wrestling in the snow that Ennis does with Alma is very clear.  I think we're meant almost to feel the difference in the kind of physical touching that went on with Jack vs. Alma with this sledding scene in particular.  Ennis has to hold back more with Alma than he probably would with Jack.  But, the punch is an entirely different level of "rough", and both Jack and Ennis recognize this (in terms of the physical reaction to it... the change in the tone of the tussle, Ennis's need to bring it up years later in the motel, etc.).  I would guess that the level of "rough housing" that goes on with Jack would feel very unacceptable to lots of viewers if Alma was in Jack's place.  If Ennis had hit Alma in the kitchen during the "Jack nasty" argument, I think perceptions of Ennis might be very different for some audience members.  And, I can't imagine how a scene would work with Ennis and Alma having a long conversation if Alma had a large bruise on her face (as happened with Jack). 

I think Ennis's guilt over hitting Jack plays a large role in his "dry heaves" moment in the alleyway and he's clearly been worrying about it for four years leading up to the chat in the motel.  It's also interesting to me that Jack doesn't respond to Ennis's comment "I figured you was sore from that punch."  Jack just furrows his brows and talks about his return trip to Aguirre's trailer.  In the story we get the whole back story about K.E. and Jack does respond to the punch topic.  And, I think Proulx brings the topic of the punch up 3 times in different places in the story (I could be mistaken about this... I don't have the story right in front of me).  But, Jack does not respond in the movie and a viewer would have no idea of the K.E. back story if they hadn't read the story.  My interpretation of Jack's non-response to Ennis statement largely has been that he'd long gotten over it... or he let it roll off of him, like he does so many things.  But, sort of sweetly, Ennis was clearly thinking all these years that the punch was one of the reasons (maybe the main reason) why Jack hadn't contacted him.  Ennis leads into the punch comment by saying "I didn't think I'd hear from you again."  I think Ennis has a sweet, caring and probably too-sensitive personality and the punch mortifies him.  And, I truly believe that Ennis would never hit Alma. And, we realize and Jack clearly comes to realize that Ennis lashes out physically when he's sad.  In the last argument scene when Ennis pushes Jack (almost a "bookend' to the punch) and says "get off me", Jack has by now learned to ignore this and to hug Ennis tighter.

Still, I'd really like to hear what people think about the punch.  And, the bloody nose that Jack gives Ennis too. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Try as I might when I watch the film, I can never quite see how Jack gives Ennis that bloody nose. I don't have the story in front of me here at work, but my memory of it is that while they're tussling, Jack accidentally hits Ennis's nose with his knee. In any case, the bloody nose is purely accidental, and I think we're supposed to understand that it's an accident in the film, too.

Ennis's punch, on the other hand, was completely deliberate. Why does he do it? Well, we know he's an emotional wreck over the unexpected early termination of their summer on the mountain. Also, I think in the culture and environment where Ennis was raised, even if your folks was good Methodists, you don't "turn the other cheek" to something like that bloody nose. I'm inclined to think it's almost like an instinctive reaction, to hit back and hit harder. At the same time, at another level, I think Ennis does know that his bloody nose was an accident, and Jack is trying to stop the blood flow when Ennis' wallops him. I think this is what bothers him for four years--he knows he was wrong to clobber Jack like that.

[serious crayons]

I agree with most of what you said, Amanda. And Jeff, I can't quite figure out how Ennis gets the bloody nose, either. (In the story, isn't the whole fight reduced to a much later, mostly unexplained reference to the punch?) So here are my other random thoughts:

My take on the punch is that it's a combination of impulse (Ennis just got physically hurt and his reflex is to hurt back) and his anger at Jack for not being more upset about leaving the mountain. IMO, it's not, as some have said, about his confusion over his own emotions, or the need to get them under control, or the desire to start separating himself from Jack and going back to his straight life --  but bewilderment that Jack appears not to be be distraught about leaving, as he is. So I guess actually both reasons could be described as "Ennis just got hurt and his reflex is to hurt back."

For the next four years, I think he misses Jack like crazy and worries -- assumes -- that he'll never see Jack again. He probably goes over and over the punch in his mind, not only because he fears it makes it even more unlikely he'll see Jack, which he's probably not very hopeful about anyway, but because he's sorry they parted on that note. When he brings it up in the hotel, it's in the context of also asking about Jack -- using the exact same words Jack had used when they parted: "So the army didn't get you?" Obviously he's never stopped thinking about that moment.

My reading of Jack is that it's long been all but forgotten. "Well, the next summer I drove on back up to Brokeback" -- he's changing the subject and telling Ennis how much the punch didn't bother him, that he just wanted to see Ennis again.

You're right that if Ennis punched Alma and then Alma's face was bruised, we'd think of it differently. I don't think this is sexism or a double standard on viewers' parts, though, it's a matter of the balance of physical power. Obviously Ennis could beat up Alma if he wanted to. Could he beat up Jack? Maybe, but it would be a lot closer fight. Jack is a tough guy, he's used to getting thrown off bulls and getting busted up. He gets thrown by his horse, he crashes backward over the buckets when he's goofing around. And he and Ennis were wrestling in the first place, the wrestling turned more intense and serious on both sides, and Jack did inadvertently hurt Ennis. So we as viewers know we needn't feel too sorry for Jack over one punch. That doesn't make it OK, and if it kept happening, that would be different. But in all other times (except for the lakeside argument), Ennis is gentle and protective with Jack.

Also, it's not like he's going all out to really injure Jack. I think one reason for the 4th of July scene is to show the contrast between Ennis' fight with Jack and the way he fights with men he's not in love with.

[serious crayons]

There’s so much conflicting stuff in Ennis that I don’t see the punch as malicious or deliberate--it’s done deliberately but it’s probably not meant that way, if that makes any sense.

It does make sense, and that's how I see it, too.

[nakymaton]

IMO, it's not, as some have said, about his confusion over his own emotions, or the need to get them under control, or the desire to start separating himself from Jack and going back to his straight life...

Ok, I'll stand up and just disagree here, because I think the punch is the result of all these things and more. (I agree that it isn't something Ennis thinks out; I think it's almost instinctive. I don't think Ennis intends to hurt Jack... but he does, nonetheless. And I guess that statement covers emotional hurt as well as physical hurt.)

I can't leave my reading of the story behind when it comes to the punch. In part, that's because that part of the movie, in particular, matched the movie that played in my head when I read the story. And it's also because the Ennis of the movie really IS my Ennis from the story. If I had seen the movie without reading the story, maybe I would interpret things differently... but I didn't.

So for me, the story description of Ennis learning to punch K.E. is really significant. I don't have the story with me, but isn't there a line about "hurting him until he stops"? (Damn, I wish I had the story with me; I know the actual line was like a knife through the heart when I read the story the nth time and realized that the line could be taken in more than one way.) Anyway, I think that there was a tension within Ennis that just hurt so much that he couldn't take it, a tension between loving Jack and feeling like he shouldn't, couldn't, mustn't. And when Jack touched him, it was too much to take... and Ennis hit, because it hurt so much and he didn't understand it and he wanted it to just stop hurting. (Like a little kid who just strikes out, hitting and biting, when he's awoken in the middle of the night with some kind of fever or tummy ache. Or like a wild animal who bites the person trying to get the barbed wire off its leg.)

[Mikaela]

The wisdom of pa Del Mar:

You got a take him unawares, don't say nothing to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doing it until he takes the message. Nothing like hurting somebody to make him hear good. [  ]  The lesson was, don't say nothing and get it over quick.

 

I think I agree with Mel in this respect; - Ennis is lashing out for many reasons, but one of them is the painfully perceived need on Ennis's part to start separating himself completely from Jack in order to go back to "real life". I don't think he belives he can do it at all, without the message being delivered silently, surprisingly, quickly and painfully. Ennis always was a doer, not a talker.

Punching Jack out, and just leaving him - it's such a contrast to the tenderness of TS2, and a contrast to the affection that Jack is demonstrating in comforting Ennis and wiping his nose. All that affectionate stuff - it would be considered to be definitely "queer" outside of the mountain!  Ennis is switching over to his "straight guy mode" - where such sissy behaviour and any hint of queerness deserves a punch in the face. He is telling Jack that "as of now, I'm not only "not queer", but behaving "not queer". I'm behaving straight. Our one shot thing is over, ended by a one punch in the face thing."

I don't know which one of them hurts the most when Ennis walks away from Jack, nose still bloody and mind in complete turmoil.

And it certainly gets a message across; - if not for that punch I can't imagine Jack accepting that Ennis is getting married and getting work on some ranch, and just driving off without any further try at arranging to keep in contact once they get down to Signal. The punch creates enough uncertainty in Jack that he lets Ennis walk away.

[opinionista]

I have never ever been punched in the face or anywhere else by anyone. However, I know this from experience. I had a relationship a long time ago with a man whom I was very in love with. We were very close and passionate, but lived in different countries and spent lots of time apart. Everytime we had to part ways, we would get mad at each other for no apparent reason, even got into heated arguments, and there were times in which he will leave not speaking to me. After a while, after we have broken up, I figured out those fights were a way to ease the pain the idea of spending time apart caused us, because later when we spoke on the phone or something, neither of us would remember the fight or were mad at the other.

From that experience, I have come to the conclusion that Ennis needed to be mad at Jack, and make Jack somehow hate him, to be able to let go. He needed to ease the pain, so he punches Jack in the face and hard. The split hits harder on Ennis because he was a pessimist. He probably couldn't think of way of seeing Jack again. He thought he was losing him forever. We all saw how bad the split hurts him. When Ennis sees Jack driving away, he gets cramps, drops on his knees and punches the wall very hard to try to ease that horrible pain he was feeling.

In the short story, Ennis tells Jack:

"That summer," said Ennis. "When we split up after we got paid I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethiin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."

Jack, on the other hand, had it easier because he was optimist. He had faith in himself, and knew he'll find a way to contact Ennis again. Besides, I think in the mountain when the learn the have to leave, Jack was sure he and Ennis would get back together the next summer. We see Jack hurt when Ennis reminds him that he's marrying Alma and isn't coming back to BBM. I guess Jack figured out that after they had been together, Ennis would decide to break up with Alma. Still, he doesn't quit. He goes back to Aguirre the following summer, hoping to see Ennis again.

[Brown Eyes]

Wow!  Thanks Friends!  What awesome posts here!  It's amazing how many different responses we've all had to this scene.  Opinionista, I like the idea that Ennis and Jack respond to the split-up differently based on being generally more pessimistic vs. optimistic.  That makes sense to me.   And, yes, Katherine, I don't think Ennis would have an easy time really beating Jack up.  Someone once commented on how much stronger Jack looks, especially in the '63 summer (I think the comment was something like "he's the one with the muscles." lol).  I'm guessing that, as you said, the rodeo-ing required a lot of strength and he probably was more well fed (with loving Ma Twist looking after him) than poor Ennis who has to fend for himself. 

I think the motivations for the punch are an incredibly complicated mixture of all the things people have suggested.  And, the one thing for sure is that it wasn't based on logic.  If Ennis was really thinking about it, I'm sure he wouldn't have done it.  My initial reaction was along the lines of nakymaton's post.  After my first few viewings I was sure this was all about Ennis forcing himself to detach from Jack in order to try to force himself back into his life with Alma, etc.  And, I still think this is one very plausible way of looking at things.  But, now after reading lots of different arguments about this crucial moment when they split up after the '63 summer, I can see how the situation can be read very differently (along the lines of Katherine's reading) and about his desire not to detach.  Maybe it's two sides of the same coin.

Anyway, it's interesting that the souvenir from this heart-wrenching moment became the most sentimental symbol of their love.  In taking Ennis's bloody shirt and not washing it... Jack must have moved on from the immediate problem of the punch pretty quickly and instead focused his attention on his desire to hold on to Ennis (or at least a reminder of him). 

[jpwagoneer1964]

In the movie Jack DOES respond when Ennis says "I thought you were sore about that punch". He says quietly no and says he went back to Signal next year...
In the book the punch was explained by a reflex brought on by roughousing with his brother K.E. (what does that stand for?). as his farther taught hin to handle him. I don't think he meant to hurt Jack.

[Midnight24]

In the movie Jack DOES respond when Ennis says "I thought you were sore about that punch". He says quietly no and says he went back to Signal next year...
In the book the punch was explained by a reflex brought on by roughousing with his brother K.E. (what does that stand for?). as his farther taught hin to handle him. I don't think he meant to hurt Jack.

I don't think Jack meant to hurt Ennis, he was just roughhousing and maybe it was by instinct.

Slightly off-topic: Does anyone know how actors fake a bloody nose? Just curious.

I've always wondered that, too. How do they do that...

[Meryl]

Excellent topic, and wonderful insights! 

By nakymatonAnyway, I think that there was a tension within Ennis that just hurt so much that he couldn't take it, a tension between loving Jack and feeling like he shouldn't, couldn't, mustn't. And when Jack touched him, it was too much to take... and Ennis hit, because it hurt so much and he didn't understand it and he wanted it to just stop hurting. (Like a little kid who just strikes out, hitting and biting, when he's awoken in the middle of the night with some kind of fever or tummy ache. Or like a wild animal who bites the person trying to get the barbed wire off its leg.)

This is how I see it, too.  Instinctive and irrational.  I have a cat with a "low startle point" who attacks the source of what alarms her, no matter if it makes sense or not.  Ennis reminds me of her here.

There's another thing at work, too, that makes the Jack thing different from the times Ennis strikes out at the bikers and the truck driver at the Black & Blue, IMO.  There's so much of the hurt child in Ennis's personality.  Ennis is scared of being perceived as "weak," as being in need of help or comfort.  He'd like to think that he's in control of the situation and unaffected by it all.  It's interesting that the punch comes not after the blow to the nose but after Jack's caress, Jack's perception that he was hurting.  The same happens at the Lake Scene when Ennis breaks down in tears.  The "Get the fuck off me" reaction is not the same as the "Dammit, I am not taking your crap" attacks.

[serious crayons]

It's interesting that the punch comes not after the blow to the nose but after Jack's caress, Jack's perception that he was hurting.  The same happens at the Lake Scene when Ennis breaks down in tears.  The "Get the fuck off me" reaction is not the same as the "Dammit, I am not taking your crap" attacks.

Great observation, Meryl! It makes me rethink my earlier assertion that Ennis punches Jack not because he's trying to get his emotions under control but because he's hurt that Jack doesn't seem as disappointed about leaving.

Now I think it's both. He is hurt that Jack doesn't seem as disappointed. But if that was all there was to it, he might have punched Jack sooner. Nor was the bloody nose the provocation. It was Jack's attempt to comfort and calm him that set Ennis off.

When Jack lassoes Ennis the first time, Ennis tucks in his shirt. That's what Ennis does every time he has to transition between his two "worlds" -- Jack and the rest of society -- as a way of tucking away his secrets and adjusting his mindset for wherever he's headed. So he's getting ready to go back into society, perhaps starting to bring his feelings about Jack under control. Then Jack lassoes him again. The tussle that follows is an expression of mild annoyance over the lassooing and also a desire on both sides to touch each other. The way they'd really like to touch sees off limits given the turn their moods have taken, so this is the closest they can get.

That mix of confusing emotions starts to get Ennis mad. Then the bloody nose. He's still not immediately mad enough to punch back, he stands there a moment and wipes the blood on Jack's shirt. But it's Jack's comforting that pushes him over the edge. It brings all of those wild emotions back into relief -- heartbreak about leaving Jack, hurt that Jack isn't more upset, his own struggle to prepare to go back to society and give all this up. When Jack is tender and caring it reminds him again how much he will be losing, so he lashes out.

That's echoed in the lake scene -- twice, actually. When Jack says "I did once," he is reminded of how much he'll lose if Jack leaves him, so he lashes out with the Mexico threat. And then Jack's comforting triggers the "get the fuck off me."

[fernly]

When Jack says, “You and Alma, that’s a life,” well, I can understand getting a little peeved by that remark because the only glimpse that Jack got of Ennis’s home life was that time in the entryway/kitchen. But then I remember Ennis saying at the motel, “I’m stuck with what I got here,” which is not the way you describe a life and wife you’re happy with.

I've come to think that Jack is doing some (reasonable) projecting here, cause him and Lureen, that's not much of a life. Like you said, Barb, Jack's had little reason up to this point to think that Ennis is any more happy with his life in Riverton than Jack is with his life in Childress, and plenty of reasons (all night in the motel, the day spent together, the expression on Ennis' face when he's lying there by the fire) to think that Ennis isn't.

[dly64]

I am going back to the screenplay because I think it helps (me) understand Ennis' motivation.

As an additional note, the book and screenplay indicate the bloody nose is a result of getting kneed by accident. I, however, think that the film makes it look intensional. There are also some slight differences ... In the film, Ennis hits Jack in his eye instead of his jaw and it is Ennis who has the denim shirt instead of Jack. Beyond that, I think the film and the screenplay are very close. Here are the notes:

Ennis grabs the rope and yanks hard -- Jack is pulled towards Ennis and falls, they start to wrestle. Ennis is only half-playing -- tense.

Jack is not quite fighting, either, but the mood quickly darkens, when Ennis slips, trying to avoid a hold, and Jack accidentally knees him in the nose. Blood pours, getting on both of them. Ennis jumps to his feet. Jack immediately gets up, tries to staunch the blood coming from Ennis' nose with his own shirt sleeve, and Ennis reflexively cold-cocks him hard in the jaw, causing Jack to stagger back and fall on his ass.

Jack looks up at Ennis, rubbing his jaw, too stunned to say anything.

Ennis looks down at him, wiping his bloody nose on his denim sleeve, furious and despairing all at once, more emotion stirring than he can handle.

What this indicates to me is two things:
1) Ennis' initial hit is one of impulse. Nothing unusual for him since he is shown throughout the film as having quick reflexes. He takes action without thinking anything through.
2) Ennis was unable to deal with what was happening. The main feeling he ever experienced pre-BBM was anger. Ennis was certainly not in touch with his emotions. Instead, he reverted back to what he knew best .... anger, avoidance.

[Brown Eyes]

Well, I think it's very interesting to focus on the timing of when the punch comes.  Very clever of all of you to notice that it comes during a moment of "comforting"... that's a very interesting trend to think about.  I remember someone once said that they thought Ennis got angry here because of the *second* lassoing maneuver from Jack...  The idea was that Ennis did not like feeling that out of control.  That knocking him on the ground with the lasso was enough to make him feel uncomfortably unstable/ out of control.  This seems especially true since he's just tucked his shirt-in... which definitely means he's trying to get himself under control.

I'm glad we're really discussing this scene because (well, I think it's a really difficult scene to come to terms with) and because Proulx seems to make quite a big deal about the issue of the punch.  I've now checked (since my first post) and she does mention it 3 times... and the 3 times are dispersed throughout the story.
(1) "He looked away from Jack's jaw, bruised blue from the hard punch Ennis had thrown him on the last day." - this corresponds with the truck conversation
(2) [Jack]"Yeah, that little punch a yours surprised me.  I never figured you to throw a dirty punch"- followed by the K.E. story in the motel.
(3) "The dried blood on the sleeve was his own blood, a gushing nosebleed on the last afternoon on the mountain when Jack, in their contortionistic grappling and wrestling, had slammed Ennis's nose hard with his knee.  He had staunched the blood which was everywhere, all over both of them, with his shirtsleeve, but the staunching hadn't held because Ennis had suddenly swung from the deck and laid the ministering angel out in the wild columbine, wings folded." - this comes right near the end, clearly with the discovery of the shirts.

It's remains amazing to me that this moment of hurt (Ennis's was clearly tied up in knots and agonizing during the punch scene and Jack was hurt, confused, felt rejected, etc.) turns into something so sentimental.  Even Proulx's writing evolves in a very sentimental way when describing the circumstance.

I also (again to reiterate something I mentioned in the first post) still can't quite grasp my own reaction to this whole thing.  I can't think of any other movie (and of course most certainly real life circumstances) where I'd tolerate the idea of hitting a lover so easily... Or I mean, I'm able to move past this in the film (I guess much the same way Jack is able to do this).  But, still I would normally never be able to brush such a thing off so easily. 
 

[dly64]

I'm glad we're really discussing this scene because (well, I think it's a really difficult scene to come to terms with) and because Proulx seems to make quite a big deal about the issue of the punch.  I've now checked (since my first post) and she does mention it 3 times... and the 3 times are dispersed throughout the story.
(1) "He looked away from Jack's jaw, bruised blue from the hard punch Ennis had thrown him on the last day." - this corresponds with the truck conversation
(2) [Jack]"Yeah, that little punch a yours surprised me.  I never figured you to throw a dirty punch"- followed by the K.E. story in the motel.
(3) "The dried blood on the sleeve was his own blood, a gushing nosebleed on the last afternoon on the mountain when Jack, in their contortionistic grappling and wrestling, had slammed Ennis's nose hard with his knee.  He had staunched the blood which was everywhere, all over both of them, with his shirtsleeve, but the staunching hadn't held because Ennis had suddenly swung from the deck and laid the ministering angel out in the wild columbine, wings folded." - this comes right near the end, clearly with the discovery of the shirts.

It's remains amazing to me that this moment of hurt (Ennis's was clearly tied up in knots and agonizing during the punch scene and Jack was hurt, confused, felt rejected, etc.) turns into something so sentimental.  Even Proulx's writing evolves in a very sentimental way when describing the circumstance.

I completely agree with you. I think see the shirts symbolizing two things:
1) The shirts are like "two skins, one inside the other, two in one." Almost  a metaphor of marriage ... "the two shall become one".
2) The blood - They can't quit each other. They are in each other's blood. Their love for each other is that deep.

I also (again to reiterate something I mentioned in the first post) still can't quite grasp my own reaction to this whole thing.  I can't think of any other movie (and of course most certainly real life circumstances) where I'd tolerate the idea of hitting a lover so easily... Or I mean, I'm able to move past this in the film (I guess much the same way Jack is able to do this).  But, still I would normally never be able to brush such a thing off so easily. 

I find this a bit baffling, too. However, I see Ennis as a person who can't handle his emotions. He explodes easily. He is very impulsive. Anger is the one thing he understands. I have also wondered if he hit Jack to convince himself that he had no feelings for this man. Just a thought ....

[serious crayons]

Ennis says, “Now you shut up...” and Jack looks hurt by the rebuke. I’m not sure what to think about the exchange leading up to this. When Jack says, “You and Alma, that’s a life,” well, I can understand getting a little peeved by that remark because the only glimpse that Jack got of Ennis’s home life was that time in the entryway/kitchen. But then I remember Ennis saying at the motel, “I’m stuck with what I got here,” which is not the way you describe a life and wife you’re happy with. So maybe they’re both at fault here.

Well, I don't blame Ennis here (so what else is new?) because it seems to me he is being nice to defend Alma.

[Meryl]

By Latjoreme
When Jack lassoes Ennis the first time, Ennis tucks in his shirt. That's what Ennis does every time he has to transition between his two "worlds" -- Jack and the rest of society -- as a way of tucking away his secrets and adjusting his mindset for wherever he's headed.

Good observation, Katherine!  He's "straightening up" his act.  

By goadra
It’s an interesting contrast between the moments mentioned and one of the times that Ennis does allow Jack to comfort him. After “There ain’t no reins,” Jack softly brushes Ennis’s cheek and caresses his neck--and Ennis doesn’t pull away.

I think the difference here is that, unlike the other times, Ennis feels in control.  Jack is silently acquiescing to Ennis's wanting to continue their separate lives as well as their relationship.  They are both in need of comfort.

By atz75
I remember someone once said that they thought Ennis got angry here because of the *second* lassoing maneuver from Jack...  The idea was that Ennis did not like feeling that out of control.  That knocking him on the ground with the lasso was enough to make him feel uncomfortably unstable/ out of control.  This seems especially true since he's just tucked his shirt-in... which definitely means he's trying to get himself under control.

Amanda, you've pointed up a side of Ennis that I think is key to how he deals with his fear, and that is by being controlling.  As long as he can dictate the terms of his and Jack's relationship, he feels able to handle it.  Jack puts up with the "fucking short leash" for many years before he confronts Ennis about it, and Alma puts up with his "fishing" trips in much the same way.  When Ennis senses he's not in control, like at the Lake Scene and in the Thanksgiving scene with Alma, his immediate reaction is to lash out.  Maybe this is actually what I was trying to describe earlier as the hurt child trying to prove he doesn't need comfort.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

I have a slightly different take on the punch.

While I agree with a lot of what has been said in the previous posts, two things are significant for me:

Latjoreme

…[Ennis] is reminded of how much he'll lose if Jack leaves him, so he lashes out with the Mexico threat.

And

Atz75

Well, I think it's very interesting to focus on the timing of when the punch comes.  Very clever of all of you to notice that it comes during a moment of "comforting"... that's a very interesting trend to think about.

I look at the punch as being completely intentional and deliberate.

It goes back to the second tent scene.  Jack waited in the tent for Ennis to choose to make a move on this night.  Jack wasn’t going to grab Ennis’ hand again.  Ennis did make his choice and walked into the tent.  What’s significant about this choice?  Ennis put aside all of his fears that had been engrained into him.  He put all of his trust in Jack.  Major steps for Ennis.

Then Jack led Ennis into lovemaking (as opposed to sex, which Ennis did quite handily, thank you very much).  And what did Ennis do? He completely and utterly melted into Jack’s arms.  He put all of his trust into Jack.

Whoosh!  Cut to the scene where Jack is taking down the tent.  What does Ennis see?  Ennis sees Jack dismantling the home that they built together, that they built by Ennis putting all of his trust into Jack.  And Ennis saw Jack taking it down nonchalantly – which we understand because we mainly agree that Jack expected the relationship to continue in some form or fashion post-mountain.

So Ennis got in a snit and went off to sit.  And he did himself some thinkin’.  As everyone seems to agree above, Ennis is confused and hurt about a lot of issues.

But the key issue I see here is that Ennis now sees (to Ennis, at least) Jack betraying the trust that Ennis put into Jack in the second tent scene and thereafter.

What is significant about Ennis’ trust?  Where does Ennis come from?  What makes Ennis tick?  He was “abandoned” by his parents’ deaths.  He was “abandoned” by his sister’s marriage.  He was “abandoned” by his brother’s marriage.  These are all people he trusted to be there for him – people he needed -- and each one “abandoned” him.  When he gave his trust to Jack, he gave Jack everything that had been taken away from himself over the past several years.  He put his trust in Jack to lead him and to be there for him.

Now, Jack is leading Ennis away from their home.  Ennis feels that he is, once again, being abandoned.  This is why I believe his punch was deliberate.  I believe Ennis is saying “You son-of-a-bitch… how dare you abandon me when I gave myself to you.”  He subjugated his fear of “queer” by putting his trust in Jack.  Now, he’s lashing out at the object, the maker or doer, of his other great fear – fear of abandonment – and that object is Jack.

[stevenedel]

Now, Jack is leading Ennis away from their home.  Ennis feels that he is, once again, being abandoned.  This is why I believe his punch was deliberate.  I believe Ennis is saying “You son-of-a-bitch… how dare you abandon me when I gave myself to you.”  He subjugated his fear of “queer” by putting his trust in Jack.  Now, he’s lashing out at the object, the maker or doer, of his other great fear – fear of abandonment – and that object is Jack.

I agree with that. Ennis's mood darkens from the very moment Jack tells him they will be going down a month early. Ennis was always the practical and dutiful one, but now he lets Jack do all the packing while he just mopes around. On BBM he has found a happiness he's never known before (and will, unfortunately, never know again ). By the time they have to leave BBM, he knows that. I think Proulx likened Ennis to a wound-up spring; you might say BBM unwound him, and when they have to go, he is winding up again. So when Jack is hurting him, he hurts him back. But in the end I think his anger has very little to do with Jack at all, or with Jack inadvertently hitting his nose - it's just his own confusion and inability to cope that he projects outward.

I must say that though, thankfully, I'm not the hitting type, I know from personal experience how intense love, once thwarted, can turn into intense anger. If circumstances force you to part from someone you love, you're still stuck with all those feelings that have to go somewhere. One defense mechanism is to turn them into their opposite. I believe psychoanalysts call this reaction-formation.

[dly64]

I agree with that. Ennis's mood darkens from the very moment Jack tells him they will be going down a month early. Ennis was always the practical and dutiful one, but now he lets Jack do all the packing while he just mopes around. On BBM he has found a happiness he's never known before (and will, unfortunately, never know again ). By the time they have to leave BBM, he knows that. I think Proulx likened Ennis to a wound-up spring; you might say BBM unwound him, and when they have to go, he is winding up again. So when Jack is hurting him, he hurts him back. But in the end I think his anger has very little to do with Jack at all, or with Jack inadvertently hitting his nose - it's just his own confusion and inability to cope that he projects outward.

I must say that though, thankfully, I'm not the hitting type, I know from personal experience how intense love, once thwarted, can turn into intense anger. If circumstances force you to part from someone you love, you're still stuck with all those feelings that have to go somewhere. One defense mechanism is to turn them into their opposite. I believe psychoanalysts call this reaction-formation.

I like what you are saying here in regards to Ennis being "unwound" and then "rewound". I think that you are dead on regarding the anger issue. However, I think Ennis' punch is one of impulse .... Maybe the right word is not anger. He is outwardly showing anger, but internally his world is spiraling and he doesn't know how to handle all of his feelings. IMO, Ennis understands how to express one emotion ... that is anger. If he resorts to anger, he can escape dealing with the truth.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Ennis understands how to express one emotion ... that is anger. If he resorts to anger, he can escape dealing with the truth.

Sure enough.

He's just a bundle of raw energy, isn't he?

[Midnight24]

Sure enough.

He's just a bundle of raw energy, isn't he?

I agree...yeah I guess in some ways he deals with things in anger. A bundle of raw energy indeed.

[mvansand76]

I love this discussion... I love ALL the discussions on here! 

What I find striking about the punch is that Ennis lets himself be comforted by Jack UNTIL Jack lays his hand on his face in such a way that only a lover will do, soothing, that's EXACTLY the moment when Ennis hits him. Did anybody else notice that? That's exactly what Ennis couldn't take, to feel that caress, because he knew it would be gone in a matter of hours.

[stevenedel]

I love this discussion... I love ALL the discussions on here! 

What I find striking about the punch is that Ennis lets himself be comforted by Jack UNTIL Jack lays his hand on his face in such a way that only a lover will do, soothing, that's EXACTLY the moment when Ennis hits him. Did anybody else notice that? That's exactly what Ennis couldn't take, to feel that caress, because he knew it would be gone in a matter of hours.

I think it also shows that while Jack was never truly fighting, Ennis was. So while for Jack it is possible to instantlly resume the tender, caring role when he accidently hits Ennis harder than intended, Ennis can only continue fighting. His anger is real and comes from deep within. I always see that punch as the first, violent expression of the accusation he makes twenty years on: "It's because of you I am like this". He's externalizing his inner conflict.

[nakymaton]

What I find striking about the punch is that Ennis lets himself be comforted by Jack UNTIL Jack lays his hand on his face in such a way that only a lover will do, soothing, that's EXACTLY the moment when Ennis hits him. Did anybody else notice that? That's exactly what Ennis couldn't take, to feel that caress, because he knew it would be gone in a matter of hours.

Doesn't Jack murmur something like "It's all right" as he wipes Ennis's blood? There's something about Jack's actions that recall the 2nd tent scene (as well as the scene after Ennis encounters the bear).

And that makes Ennis's punch all the more painful. (Emotionally painful, I mean.)

(Which is not to say that I blame Ennis. But I don't blame Jack either.)

Mel

[serious crayons]

What does Ennis see?  Ennis sees Jack dismantling the home that they built together, that they built by Ennis putting all of his trust into Jack.  And Ennis saw Jack taking it down nonchalantly ... Ennis now sees (to Ennis, at least) Jack betraying the trust that Ennis put into Jack in the second tent scene and thereafter.

...  When he gave his trust to Jack, he gave Jack everything that had been taken away from himself over the past several years.  He put his trust in Jack to lead him and to be there for him.

Now, Jack is leading Ennis away from their home.  Ennis feels that he is, once again, being abandoned.  This is why I believe his punch was deliberate.  I believe Ennis is saying “You son-of-a-bitch… how dare you abandon me when I gave myself to you.”  He subjugated his fear of “queer” by putting his trust in Jack.  Now, he’s lashing out at the object, the maker or doer, of his other great fear – fear of abandonment – and that object is Jack.

This makes perfect sense to me.

What I find striking about the punch is that Ennis lets himself be comforted by Jack UNTIL Jack lays his hand on his face in such a way that only a lover will do, soothing, that's EXACTLY the moment when Ennis hits him. Did anybody else notice that? That's exactly what Ennis couldn't take, to feel that caress, because he knew it would be gone in a matter of hours.

And I also love this, mvansand76.

I think it also shows that while Jack was never truly fighting, Ennis was. So while for Jack it is possible to instantlly resume the tender, caring role when he accidently hits Ennis harder than intended, Ennis can only continue fighting. His anger is real and comes from deep within. I always see that punch as the first, violent expression of the accusation he makes twenty years on: "It's because of you I am like this". He's externalizing his inner conflict.

And I also agree with this, stevenedel.

Does anyone see these views as contradictory? I don't. I think they all work together. I agree that Ennis felt hurt and betrayed. But the punch wasn't t premeditated. Under other circumstances, hurt as he was, he wouldn't have punched.

But being comforted by Jack sends him over the edge. It reminds him of how much he's losing. But also, it throws Jack's apparent betrayal into even greater relief, because Jack's gentleness in this moment echoes Jack's gentleness in TS2. Now Ennis is even more hurt and confused. How can Jack be so loving one minute (TS2, and now), and yet blithely walk away? What did it all mean?

It's interesting that, years later, by the lake, Jack threatens more explicitly to walk away ("I did, ONCE"). And once again, the contrast between that potential leaving and his gentleness in trying to comfort Ennis sends Ennis over the edge.

Mel, your post appeared as I was writing this, and looks like you're saying pretty much the same thing about the parallels between TS2 and the pre-punch comforting. Good point about Jack saying "s'alright" both times.

[nakymaton]

Mel, your post appeared as I was writing this, and looks like you're saying pretty much the same thing about the parallels between TS2 and the pre-punch comforting. Good point about Jack saying "s'alright" both times.

Except that I see the parallels between the pre-punch comforting and the 2nd tent scene as showing that Ennis was pulling away from comfort because the tenderness set off all those confused alarm bells inside him.  And that the tenderness set Ennis off in a way that it hadn't before, because Ennis suddenly had to make the transition between the mountain (with its mixture of isolation and companionship that allowed him be himself for once) and "real life".

(And I actually hear Ennis's response to "I did, once" in an entirely different way from you: I read/heard Ennis's response as a reaction to Jack bringing up the whole living together thing once again, not to the implication that the dream of the cow-and-calf operation was something of the past.)

[serious crayons]

Except that I see the parallels between the pre-punch comforting and the 2nd tent scene as showing that Ennis was pulling away from comfort because the tenderness set off all those confused alarm bells inside him.  And that the tenderness set Ennis off in a way that it hadn't before,

Well, if I understand this correctly, I don't disagree, or at least not entirely. I also think the tenderness sets off confused alarm bells.

because Ennis suddenly had to make the transition between the mountain (with its mixture of isolation and companionship that allowed him be himself for once) and "real life".

And I don't disagree with this either. I think he's really upset about the prospect of the transition. What I don't agree with is those who say (and Mel, I don't know if you're in this group or not) that he punches Jack primarily because he's using anger to suppress his feelings of love. I think he punches because he's confused and hurt  ... AND upset about having to abruptly give up the happiness he'd found on the mountain and go back to his unhappy real life.

(And I actually hear Ennis's response to "I did, once" in an entirely different way from you: I read/heard Ennis's response as a reaction to Jack bringing up the whole living together thing once again, not to the implication that the dream of the cow-and-calf operation was something of the past.)

Here we partly disagree. I think Ennis issues the Mexico threat because Jack is bringing up the whole living together thing again, which puts Ennis on the defensive and he wants to turn it around and put Jack on the defensive. However, I do think the larger fear he's confronting in this scene is the prospect of losing Jack.

[nakymaton]

I think he's really upset about the prospect of the transition. What I don't agree with is those who say (and Mel, I don't know if you're in this group or not) that he punches Jack primarily because he's using anger to suppress his feelings of love. I think he punches because he's confused and hurt  ... AND upset about having to abruptly give up the happiness he'd found on the mountain and go back to his unhappy real life.

I think the punch is the result of all of those things... but I think it's mostly the result of experiencing all sorts of contradictory feelings. (I mostly take issue with the argument that Ennis is primarily reacting to Jack's inappropriately nonchalant manner while taking down the tent. Yeah, that might be part of it, but I think that Ennis's response has more to do with whatever complicated and confusing stuff is going on in Ennis's head and heart, and not so much with exactly what Jack does or doesn't do.  I think that almost everything Ennis does is, in large part, a response to stuff going on inside Ennis. Well, except for purely physical reactions, like catching keys. Ennis's physical reactions are so fast and uncomplicated, compared to his emotional reactions. So maybe I'm contradicting myself and not making any sense.)

Here we partly disagree. I think Ennis issues the Mexico threat because Jack is bringing up the whole living together thing again, which puts Ennis on the defensive and he wants to turn it around and put Jack on the defensive. However, I do think the larger fear he's confronting in this scene is the prospect of losing Jack.

Tell you what, I think that Ennis is capable of holding a lot of contradictory emotions inside himself. And  it may be that Ennis lashes out the most when the contradictions become too much to take. So the Mexico threat may be the result of fear of losing Jack AND not wanting to deal with that living together thing again AND the tacit admission that Jack is gay and, by extension, Ennis is also gay. Contradictory? Yes. But Ennis is a human tangle of contradictions; that's a large part of why I find him so fascinating.

(And how many times have I used the word "contradict" in this post? Aw, shoot, I'm not going to try to phrase it better.)

[serious crayons]

Ennis is a human tangle of contradictions; that's a large part of why I find him so fascinating.

And I wouldn't contradict you on either of these points!

Here's a portrait of Ennis:

 

[Meryl]

And I wouldn't contradict you on either of these points!

Here's a portrait of Ennis:

 

All Praise and Glory be to Heath Ledger, who had all that goin' on and then some!     

[serious crayons]

Oh yeah, I forgot to illustrate the second half of Mel's statement that I agreed with.

I find him so fascinating.

 

[dly64]

I think the punch is the result of all of those things... but I think it's mostly the result of experiencing all sorts of contradictory feelings. (I mostly take issue with the argument that Ennis is primarily reacting to Jack's inappropriately nonchalant manner while taking down the tent. Yeah, that might be part of it, but I think that Ennis's response has more to do with whatever complicated and confusing stuff is going on in Ennis's head and heart, and not so much with exactly what Jack does or doesn't do.  I think that almost everything Ennis does is, in large part, a response to stuff going on inside Ennis. Well, except for purely physical reactions, like catching keys. Ennis's physical reactions are so fast and uncomplicated, compared to his emotional reactions. So maybe I'm contradicting myself and not making any sense.)

 (And how many times have I used the word "contradict" in this post? Aw, shoot, I'm not going to try to phrase it better.)

Doesn't Jack murmur something like "It's all right" as he wipes Ennis's blood? There's something about Jack's actions that recall the 2nd tent scene (as well as the scene after Ennis encounters the bear).

And that makes Ennis's punch all the more painful. (Emotionally painful, I mean.)

(Which is not to say that I blame Ennis. But I don't blame Jack either.)

Mel – I agree with everything you are saying. I think that the punch is a combination of Ennis’ reflexes and an inability to deal with the emotional pain …. a pain that he can not understand or even begin to express. The one emotion Ennis doesunderstand is anger … so he lashes out at Jack. IMO, the timing is not a coincidence … Ennis hits Jack when Jack is comforting him. It does hearken back to SNIT. Could it be that the comforting invokes a fond memory that Ennis knows will not be repeated? Could it be that Ennis wants to hurt Jack as a way to express how much he is hurting? I honestly don’t know. What I do know is that this sequence is one that I find confusing and extremely painful to watch.. Both Ennis and Jack are anguished at the thought of leaving BBM and the uncertainty of what will follow. Each one handles it very differently … Ennis - very child like … Jack - rather stoic. I think this scene is meant to be confusing. After all, doesn’t that evoke what both Jack and Ennis are feeling at that moment?

[Brown Eyes]

I think that almost everything Ennis does is, in large part, a response to stuff going on inside Ennis. Well, except for purely physical reactions, like catching keys. Ennis's physical reactions are so fast and uncomplicated, compared to his emotional reactions. So maybe I'm contradicting myself and not making any sense.)

Tell you what, I think that Ennis is capable of holding a lot of contradictory emotions inside himself. And  it may be that Ennis lashes out the most when the contradictions become too much to take. So the Mexico threat may be the result of fear of losing Jack AND not wanting to deal with that living together thing again AND the tacit admission that Jack is gay and, by extension, Ennis is also gay. Contradictory? Yes. But Ennis is a human tangle of contradictions; that's a large part of why I find him so fascinating.

Hey there Mel!  That was a fantastic post.  I definitely agree that Ennis is so introverted that he often or usually responds to "stuff going on inside Ennis."  And, Katherine, I also agree that Ennis often tries to deflect attention/ blame/ tension away from himself and on to whomever he's arguing with.  He does this with Alma ("once burned"),  Cassie ("it looks like I got the message in any case") and then Jack with the Mexico conversation.  In a way, I think that's just his style of arguing and also demonstrates a certain amount of stubborn-ness.  This being said, I think there are other moments when he demonstrates his deep concern for other people and/ or his sense of guilt.  I think maybe his recurring urge to deflect blame is a flip-side of his tendency to carry a lot of guilt (warranted or not) inside himself too.  I think his question to Jack in the motel about the punch is a perfect example of this.  I also sort of think that Ennis's change of tone with Cassie in the bus stop (when he says "sorry... I probably wasn't much fun...") he's backing down from his frequent "don't blame me" stance and is demonstrating some empathy for Cassie (even if just a bit... but you can tell he really does feel bad about the situation with her too... even if it's not his primary concern).

Something's been on my mind a bit,...It's a bit OT (and also a bit rambling), but I might as well bring it up here since the topic of Jack continually pushing to live together has come up here in recent posts.  I think that Jack might have found inspiration for this idea, not just from their domestic arrangements on Brokeback, but also from the motel scene when Ennis says (I think probably two of the saddest lines in the whole film)  "I doubt there's nothing we can do.  So, I'm stuck with what I've got here."  Jack probably heard that "I'm stuck" comment as something that he could try to "fix" and kept suggesting this option of living together.  Ennis's statement there is probably the ultimate example of a "stander" attitude in that he's resigned to stay in his current situation without really even pondering alternatives.  So, maybe Jack heard this and thought that if he presented Ennis with some alternatives he might be able to shake Ennis out of his rut in Riverton.  But, the main point here... is that Jack did hear Ennis complaining about not liking his life in Riverton (the idea that he was "stuck" there... is certainly not a happy way to think about one's home).  By the time of the "I did once" comment... had Jack almost given up on his idea of helping Ennis "fix" things?  And, yes, I totally agree that by the time this comment came around in the argument Ennis is terrified of losing Jack.  I think we get our first flashes of this worry in the post-divorce fiasco scene.  When Jack turns to leave Ennis looks at Jack in a really concerned/ intense way and says "Jack" in a way that makes it seem like he's finally switched his attention away from the guy in the truck/ his awkwardness, etc. and is now noticing how upset Jack is.

[serious crayons]

And, yes, I totally agree that by the time this comment came around in the argument Ennis is terrified of losing Jack.  I think we get our first flashes of this worry in the post-divorce fiasco scene.  When Jack turns to leave Ennis looks at Jack in a really concerned/ intense way and says "Jack" in a way that makes it seem like he's finally switched his attention away from the guy in the truck/ his awkwardness, etc. and is not noticing how upset Jack is.

Amanda, judging from the context I'm assuming the "not noticing how upset Jack is" in your last sentence is meant to read "NOW noticing"?

Anyway, I agree. He does tend to lash out in anger, but he still feels bad -- certainly with Jack and Cassie, possibly even Alma. And he clearly feels really bad in the divorce scene. Not only the concerned look and the way he says Jack, but the way he hangs his head as Jack drives away. It's the same pose he assumes when listening to Jack's "all we got left is Brokeback Mountain" speech by the lake.

And in a milder, less traumatic way, the post-divorce scene echoes the scene where he turns down Alma Jr.'s request to live together. He doesn't look as guilty (and he needn't -- it's not as devastating), but clearly he feels bad about having to turn her down and tries to make sure she's all right with it.

As for the other part of your post, I agree that Ennis' "I'm stuck" remark probably encourages Jack, especially after the divorce, to think that's something that could be fixed. Still, later there was the Earl story as a tipoff that Ennis' reluctance isn't all about family responsibility (though family responsibility genuinely does always play a part, too, such as in the post-divorce scene and the "why don't you move to Texas?" scene).

[mlewisusc]

Post to index and easily find later.

[dly64]

Anyway, I agree. He does tend to lash out in anger, but he still feels bad -- certainly with Jack and Cassie, possibly even Alma. And he clearly feels really bad in the divorce scene. Not only the concerned look and the way he says Jack, but the way he hangs his head as Jack drives away. It's the same pose he assumes when listening to Jack's "all we got left is Brokeback Mountain" speech by the lake.

I completely agree with this.!!!

As for the other part of your post, I agree that Ennis' "I'm stuck" remark probably encourages Jack, especially after the divorce, to think that's something that could be fixed. Still, later there was the Earl story as a tipoff that Ennis' reluctance isn't all about family responsibility (though family responsibility genuinely does always play a part, too, such as in the post-divorce scene and the "why don't you move to Texas?" scene).

The "I'm stuck ..."  comment may have encouraged Jack, but the idea of living together came before that. After having been away from Ennis for four years and then reuniting with even passion and intensity, Jack did not want to let Ennis go. It's not Jack trying to "fix" anything. It is because the two of them love each other and, in Jack’s mind, the next step would be having a life together (which, of course, Ennis will not do because of his fears). Jack keeps trying to encourage Ennis, but is eventually resigned to the fact that the life he had hoped for would never happen.

[Daphne7661]

Hey Diane, Littlewing and any other IMdB friends...

I've been on vacation and out of circulation for about a week and a half, but I'm back now...


Poor Ennis, so stunted and repressed on so many levels.  He just can't seem to get out of his own way.

I find myself shaking my head at Ennis whenever he can't respond to Jack or give back to Jack what they BOTH need so desperately - their love with and for each other!  But, at the same time, I guess part of me does understand him, if not be totally frustrated with him, too.

These two characters have made us SOOO believe in their love and passion for each other, that we, the viewers, get all crazy and defeated in their inability to be truly together.  It is the genious of this film, isn't it?  We are HOOKED, totally and utterly HOOKED...

[serious crayons]

The "I'm stuck ..."  comment may have encouraged Jack, but the idea of living together came before that. After having been away from Ennis for four years and then reuniting with even passion and intensity, Jack did not want to let Ennis go. It's not Jack trying to "fix" anything. It is because the two of them love each other and, in Jack’s mind, the next step would be having a life together (which, of course, Ennis will not do because of his fears). Jack keeps trying to encourage Ennis, but is eventually resigned to the fact that the life he had hoped for would never happen.

Just to clarify, Diane, when I say Jack is trying to "fix" something, I think I mean exactly what I think you're saying -- he realizes they love each other, the next step is to have a life together -- i.e., Jack wants to "fix" the problem of them being apart, rather than "stand" the situation, as Ennis believes they must do.

Do you think the idea of living together came before Ennis made his "I'm stuck" comment? But they'd been reunited only, I don't know, maybe an hour or two by then. Or do you think Jack got the idea as he was redlining it up to Wyoming? My feeling is that, while it may have crossed Jack's mind before then, he couldn't have really thinking about it seriously before the reunion, because he couldn't have been sure about how Ennis would respond when he got there.

[dly64]

Just to clarify, Diane, when I say Jack is trying to "fix" something, I think I mean exactly what I think you're saying -- he realizes they love each other, the next step is to have a life together -- i.e., Jack wants to "fix" the problem of them being apart, rather than "stand" the situation, as Ennis believes they must do.

Now that you are clarifying ... yes, I see it the same way.

Do you think the idea of living together came before Ennis made his "I'm stuck" comment? But they'd been reunited only, I don't know, maybe an hour or two by then. Or do you think Jack got the idea as he was redlining it up to Wyoming? My feeling is that, while it may have crossed Jack's mind before then, he couldn't have really thinking about it seriously before the reunion, because he couldn't have been sure about how Ennis would respond when he got there.

I have changed my mind on this in the last couple of minutes. I think it was after Ennis says "I'm stuck ...." ... especially since Jack says right before that, "What are we gonna do now?"  Had he been thinking about the "sweet life", he would have said it at that time. When Jack does say it, however  .... OMG! It just breaks my heart! Jack says it with such sincerity and vulnerability. Then Ennis’ response ... "I told you it ain't gonna be that way." Just one in a series of heartbreaks (for both).

[Brown Eyes]

Amanda, judging from the context I'm assuming the "not noticing how upset Jack is" in your last sentence is meant to read "NOW noticing"?

Oops.  Yup, thanks for catching that.  It was definitely a typo (and one that changed what I meant to say quite significantly). 

So, I fixed it in the original post.
 

Anyway, I think the urge to fix and to stand are both manifestations of love for the respective characters.  I think Jack's wanting to live with Ennis is of course... first and foremost about love... which would simultaneously fix Ennis's "I'm stuck" idea.  I think Ennis believes that he's "standing" his "miserable fucking life" and arranging the clandestine meetings in the mountains (which are ultimately not entirely satisfying for either him or Jack... and are arrangements that both he and Jack have to "stand") all for his love of Jack.  He feels like he's arranged his whole life (quit jobs, remained an outsider in his town, etc., etc... leading to the "It's because of you Jack that I'm like this."  comment) in order to facilitate his relationship with Jack and he's kept Jack on the "short leash" with the secret meetings because he probably believes that he's protecting Jack (and himself) from homophobic violence and attitudes.  And, of course the underlying sense of needing to protect Jack is also a manifestation of love (even if facilitating this idea of protection means that he has to "stand" being away from Jack for long stretches).

It's interesting that at various points in the movie each character demonstrates a willingness to both fix and stand.  The more I think about this the more complex it seems... but it's probably a topic for another thread...
 

[serious crayons]

he's kept Jack on the "short leash" with the secret meetings because he probably believes that he's protecting Jack (and himself) from homophobic violence and attitudes.  And, of course the underlying sense of needing to protect Jack is also a manifestation of love (even if facilitating this idea of protection means that he has to "stand" being away from Jack for long stretches).

You know, it just occurred to me -- I don't know why it didn't before; maybe you all got this long ago -- that although Jack is usually the comforter, Ennis is usually the protector. He looks up with concern at Jack riding the mountain under a storm cloud, he orders soup, he shoots an elk, he worries about Earl's fate befalling them (and possibly moreso Jack, judging from the ominous symbols in the dead sheep/naked laundry scene), he regrets that in the end he wasn't there to save Jack.

All that suggests to me that neither the punch nor his Mexico threat are deliberate and/or sincere.

[Amber]

From that experience, I have come to the conclusion that Ennis needed to be mad at Jack, and make Jack somehow hate him, to be able to let go. He needed to ease the pain, so he punches Jack in the face and hard. The split hits harder on Ennis because he was a pessimist. He probably couldn't think of way of seeing Jack again. He thought he was losing him forever. We all saw how bad the split hurts him. When Ennis sees Jack driving away, he gets cramps, drops on his knees and punches the wall very hard to try to ease that horrible pain he was feeling.

I apologize I didn't make through the rest of the threads before this one jumped out at me.

This is *exactly* what I thought from the very first time I saw the movie.  I even said to my husband "Just look at how hurt he is" during their wrestling match/punch.  I understand what you are saying here.  He's devestated that he's being torn away before he'd had a chance to prepare himself for it and he doesn't know how to express what he's feeling so confusion comes out as a punch.

I wonder how Ennis would have reacted if he had the chance to mentally prepare himself - I bet it would have made it even harder on him.

[Brown Eyes]

All that suggests to me that neither the punch nor his Mexico threat are deliberate and/or sincere.

Heya Bud,

Could you explain what you mean a bit more here?

I agree that I definitely don't think the punch was deliberate (I certainly hope not) and I think we all hope and believe that his threats at the end were completely empty and insincere.  This might feel like a very different movie if we thought for a second that Ennis had even the slightest urge to kill Jack... and for that matter it would feel very different if that punch felt like "domestic violence" in the most classic sense of the phrase... which somehow it really doesn't (an aspect of the film that still puzzles and amazes me).  
 

[serious crayons]

Could you explain what you mean a bit more here?

Amanda, I'm not sure what part you'd like me to clarify, but I'll give it a shot. As a very wise poster on another thread once wrote,

I think we're meant to see Ennis as a huge contrast to his father.  "We're supposed to guard the sheep not eat them."  Ennis is definitely not one of the predators responsible for the menace of predator loss.  He's horrified by his father, it traumatizes him and messes up his sense of his own identity, but he certainly doesn't agree with him.

  (That post appeared tonight, and the person who wrote it was Amanda.)

Anyway, I thought you put it very well, and that gets at what I mean. Ennis is a protector, therefore wouldn't deliberately hurt Jack. I guess the punch was technically deliberate, but it was also impulsive and later regretted -- IMO, it does not constitute a sincere desire to injure Jack.

(Not that those are excuses -- I'm sure the same could be said of many domestic abusers. In other ways, though, I don't think I'd compare this to domestic violence. What if two friends got in a fight, both young and strong and healthy and equally matched, and one punched the other? Regrettable, sure, but to me a lot less scary and serious than the term "domestic violence" implies. So does the fact that they're lovers take it into that realm?)

Back to the other question. With the Mexico threat, Ennis was lashing out. Unlike some people who say Ennis meant that threat because he was taught that gay people should be murdered, I believe what you suggested above: Ennis was messed up by his father's actions, but that doesn't mean he has become an exact duplicate of his father or that he feels obliged to dutifully follow his every action. So no, he wouldn't actually hurt Jack then, either.

[dly64]

You know, it just occurred to me -- I don't know why it didn't before; maybe you all got this long ago -- that although Jack is usually the comforter, Ennis is usually the protector. He looks up with concern at Jack riding the mountain under a storm cloud, he orders soup, he shoots an elk, he worries about Earl's fate befalling them (and possibly more so Jack, judging from the ominous symbols in the dead sheep/naked laundry scene), he regrets that in the end he wasn't there to save Jack.

All that suggests to me that neither the punch nor his Mexico threat are deliberate and/or sincere.

I have felt for awhile that Ennis' threats or reactions were not deliberate. IMO, that is how Ennis handles his emotions ... by deflecting the situation off onto someone else or lashing out physically. Your first paragraph triggered a thought, however … I have seen Jack as the comforter, more in touch with his feelings, a dreamer, ready to take the plunge and make a life with Ennis. Honestly, I never saw Ennis in terms of “a protector” … but from what you have said, I think that is true. Conversely, there are times when Ennis is also the comforter, the one who takes the initiative. Think about the reunion kiss; the arm around Jack after Jack’s confessing that he misses Ennis so much he can hardly stand it; the dozy embrace. Furthermore, it is Ennis who breaks down in tears … partially because he can no longer contain his feelings and partially, IMO, because he can’t imagine his life without Jack (as when he breaks down post mountain and at the lake scene). Jack only cries once … and then quickly squelches his tears and drives to Mexico. So, it is not just Ennis who holds back his feelings. Jack does it, too … but in a different way. Jack gets frustrated and meets his needs sexually, physically. Ennis, however, is the only one who can meet Jack’s emotional needs.

Interestingly, neither one can be placed in a single category because they are like real humans … complex.  For me, I have often looked at Ennis as the one who did not understand that he loved Jack until it was too late. I may have to reconsider that POV… both Ennis and Jack never used the word “love” to each other. Although Jack was gregarious with Ennis, he really wasn’t that way without him. Examples … Lureen approaching Jack at the bar and Jack looking rather embarrassed, shy; rarely (if ever) standing up to Lureen or her dad (until the Thanksgiving scene, that is); Randall taking the initiative after the benefit; et.al).

Hmmm … do I need to re-think my entire POV? Maybe … to some degree.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I have felt for awhile that Ennis' threats or reactions were not deliberate. IMO, that is how Ennis handles his emotions ... by deflecting the situation off onto someone else or lashing out physically. Your first paragraph triggered a thought, however … I have seen Jack as the comforter, more in touch with his feelings, a dreamer, ready to take the plunge and make a life with Ennis. Honestly, I never saw Ennis in terms of “a protector” … but from what you have said, I think that is true. Conversely, there are times when Ennis is also the comforter, the one who takes the initiative. Think about the reunion kiss; the arm around Jack after Jack’s confessing that he misses Ennis so much he can hardly stand it; the dozy embrace. Furthermore, it is Ennis who breaks down in tears … partially because he can no longer contain his feelings and partially, IMO, because he can’t imagine his life without Jack (as when he breaks down post mountain and at the lake scene). Jack only cries once … and then quickly squelches his tears and drives to Mexico. So, it is not just Ennis who holds back his feelings. Jack does it, too … but in a different way. Jack gets frustrated and meets his needs sexually, physically. Ennis, however, is the only one who can meet Jack’s emotional needs.

Interestingly, neither one can be placed in a single category because they are like real humans … complex.  For me, I have often looked at Ennis as the one who did not understand that he loved Jack until it was too late. I may have to reconsider that POV… both Ennis and Jack never used the word “love” to each other. Although Jack was gregarious with Ennis, he really wasn’t that way without him. Examples … Lureen approaching Jack at the bar and Jack looking rather embarrassed, shy; rarely (if ever) standing up to Lureen or her dad (until the Thanksgiving scene, that is); Randall taking the initiative after the benefit; et.al).

Hmmm … do I need to re-think my entire POV? Maybe … to some degree.

I think Jack cried after the punch, was certianly close to tears when "Sometimes I miss you so much I can...." and at the lake scene when he goees to hug Ennis.

[dly64]

I think Jack cried after the punch, was certainly close to tears when "Sometimes I miss you so much I can...." and at the lake scene when he goes to hug Ennis.

I see where you are coming from ... don't know that I agree100%. There are times, as you have said, that Jack is certainly close to tears. I just find it interesting that each one handles his emotions so completely different from the other. Ennis literally breaks down. Jack channels his feelings of frustration and need into having sex with other men (IMO). They both have troubles expressing the truth to each other. Ironically, they are both more themselves when they are together versus when they are apart.

[Brown Eyes]

Amanda, I'm not sure what part you'd like me to clarify, but I'll give it a shot.

LOL.  I just thought you might have meant you thought of a whole new way to look at Ennis's motivations here... or had more to say about what really did spur the punch/threats.  I think it was the kind of misunderstanding that comes from typing/reading vs. actually talking.
 

[serious crayons]

LOL.  I just thought you might have meant you thought of a whole new way to look at Ennis's motivations here... or had more to say about what really did spur the punch/threats.  I think it was the kind of misunderstanding that comes from typing/reading vs. actually talking.
 

Or perhaps just me finding a new way of wording an idea I've no doubt expressed in other words before! 

[Brown Eyes]

Anyway, I thought you put it very well, and that gets at what I mean. Ennis is a protector, therefore wouldn't deliberately hurt Jack. I guess the punch was technically deliberate, but it was also impulsive and later regretted -- IMO, it does not constitute a sincere desire to injure Jack.

(Not that those are excuses -- I'm sure the same could be said of many domestic abusers. In other ways, though, I don't think I'd compare this to domestic violence. What if two friends got in a fight, both young and strong and healthy and equally matched, and one punched the other? Regrettable, sure, but to me a lot less scary and serious than the term "domestic violence" implies. So does the fact that they're lovers take it into that realm?)

I think that the fact that they're lovers does at least suggest the idea of domestic violence.  They are domestic partners of a sort while on Brokeback anyway.  It is less scary than it would be with Alma (for example) because, as you've noted, Jack is very strong (and may even be stronger than Ennis).  But, it's the principle of the thing and the level emotional impact of the punch is probably quite high since they are lovers (I think the emotional impact of a punch would be much different if they truly were just friends).  I've never thought about the idea that people have raised here that Jack might be crying after the punch.  It's hard to tell... it has always seemed to me that he was just stunned.  I don't know.  I think this is a truly difficult issue.  But, I do think that Jack really was still "sore from that punch" (as in mad or upset) by the time of the difficult talk with Ennis before they part ways.

On a related note.  I think it's interesting that it's the stain of Ennis's physical injury here (his bloody nose) that remains visible and permanent through to the end on the shirts.  I think the fact that Ennis got hurt here as well as Jack also mediates the impact of the punch.  Jack is bruised but he gets over it quickly (long before the reunion certainly, but again I don't think he's over it by the time of his chat with Ennis before the part ways after the Brokeback summer), but the stain of Ennis's blood suggests maybe a more profound situation for him as he walks away from the confusing tussle.
 

[serious crayons]

But, it's the principle of the thing and the level emotional impact of the punch is probably quite high since they are lovers (I think the emotional impact of a punch would be much different if they truly were just friends).

Good point.

I've never thought about the idea that people have raised here that Jack might be crying after the punch.  It's hard to tell... it has always seemed to me that he was just stunned.  I don't know.  I think this is a truly difficult issue.  But, I do think that Jack really was still "sore from that punch" (as in mad or upset) by the time of the difficult talk with Ennis before they part ways.

I don't think he was crying. That would be out of character, IMO. Jack didn't cry as often as Ennis because he just didn't cry as easily. Stunned is more like it to me, too.

I think definitely he was still sore by the time they were back at Aguiree's. By the time of their parting? Maybe. That might explain his relatively restrained emotions as he drove away. But I'm sure he would have gotten over it in a flash, if ...

[dly64]

I don't think he was crying. That would be out of character, IMO. Jack didn't cry as often as Ennis because he just didn't cry as easily. Stunned is more like it to me, too.

Ditto.

I think definitely he was still sore by the time they were back at Aguiree's. By the time of their parting? Maybe. That might explain his relatively restrained emotions as he drove away. But I'm sure he would have gotten over it in a flash, if ...

I don't see it this way ... (what a shock! I disagree!  ) ... if Jack would have been angry or upset, I don't think he would have taken Ennis' shirt. He wanted a part of Ennis ... not just his shirt, but his blood. IMO, Jack shows devastation right before their parting. His eyes … almost pleading to Ennis … “I might be back …”  in hopes that Ennis will join him again the following summer. When driving away, Jack is still pained. He is stunned and confused by the “punch”, but his longing for Ennis is still apparent.

[Brown Eyes]

I think the confusion brought on by the punch caused Jack to behave in an uncharacteristically restrained way.  I think he truly doesn't quite know how to read Ennis here and isn't as open as he might have been otherwise.  Maybe he should have pushed Ennis a little harder here to stay with him, go off with him, or something... and maybe that's what Ennis is wanting/waiting for Jack to do... since he's still largely relying on Jack leading the way.  Still, I think the confusion that started with the "confusing tussle" caused this parting to be much more fraught than it might have been otherwise.  But, I agree, that even through this Jack's still trying to demonstrate that he wants to see Ennis again.  And, yes his love and desire to keep the shirts certainly show that he's more concerned with those things in the long-run than the passing punch incident.

[serious crayons]

if Jack would have been angry or upset, I don't think he would have taken Ennis' shirt. He wanted a part of Ennis ... not just his shirt, but his blood. IMO, Jack shows devastation right before their parting. His eyes … almost pleading to Ennis … “I might be back …”  in hopes that Ennis will join him again the following summer.

You're absolutely right! Hey, I can change my mind, too. I keep forgetting about the shirts (duh -- like they're an minor insignificant little prop). If his behavior doesn't show it, the shirts are the proof of how Jack felt on that day.

Maybe he should have pushed Ennis a little harder here to stay with him, go off with him, or something... and maybe that's what Ennis is wanting/waiting for Jack to do... since he's still largely relying on Jack leading the way. 

I agree with this, too. Ennis hopes that Jack will take some action, as he had in the past. Not necessarily that if Jack had said, "Hey Ennis, screw the wedding, let's run off together, it'd be a sweet life" there's much hope Ennis would go for it. But it might have changed things ... somehow. At the very least, maybe made their parting less fraught. Maybe led them to figure out their next time to meet. Maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe caused Ennis to rethink the ill-starred wedding idea.

[dly64]

I agree with this, too. Ennis hopes that Jack will take some action, as he had in the past. Not necessarily that if Jack had said, "Hey Ennis, screw the wedding, let's run off together, it'd be a sweet life" there's much hope Ennis would go for it. But it might have changed things ... somehow. At the very least, maybe made their parting less fraught. Maybe led them to figure out their next time to meet. Maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe caused Ennis to rethink the ill-starred wedding idea.

I wish, wish, wish ... but it never happens! Sometimes I think the outcome will change ... but as we know, it never will.

[serious crayons]

I wish, wish, wish ... but it never happens! Sometimes I think the outcome will change ... but as we know, it never will.

Don't tell me that! I'm thinking that if I keep watching it and watching it, then someday, it will end differently ...

[jpwagoneer1964]

Don't tell me that! I'm thinking that if I keep watching it and watching it, then someday, it will end differently ...

I keep wishing Jack would have gone around the block when leaving Signal and he would have been the cowboy that found Ennis on his knees in that alcove.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Don't tell me that! I'm thinking that if I keep watching it and watching it, then someday, it will end differently ...

I keep wishing Jack would have gone around the block when leaving Signal and he would have been the cowboy that found Ennis on his knees in that alcove.

[dly64]

I keep wishing Jack would have gone around the block when leaving Signal and he would have been the cowboy that found Ennis on his knees in that alcove.

When I first saw this movie ... I thought that was Jack coming up the street. Needless to say ... it wasn't. 

[Brown Eyes]

I know!  I thought that guy was Jack upon my first viewing too.

So, what do we think would have happened if Jack offered Ennis a ride (to wherever he was going)?  I'm not even talking about a flirtatious overture or something... I just mean a basic ride... at least to a bus station or something.  I always found this pretty harsh of Jack (also an indication of how mad/ confused he probably is at this moment).  If Jack had offered a ride to Ennis... would Ennis have taken it?

[jpwagoneer1964]

I know!  I thought that guy was Jack upon my first viewing too.

So, what do we think would have happened if Jack offered Ennis a ride (to wherever he was going)?  I'm not even talking about a flirtatious overture or something... I just mean a basic ride... at least to a bus station or something.  I always found this pretty harsh of Jack (also an indication of how mad/ confused he probably is at this moment).  If Jack had offered a ride to Ennis... would Ennis have taken it?

In the book Annie says that they are going on oppisite directions.

If Jack HAD found Ennis in the alcove I can imagine him saying "Ennis...quit your hammering and get in here (the truck)." If he didn't then respond or said "get the f...k of me"Jack would have pulled him up and led him to the truck, Ennis no longer resisting. They would have taken off riding for a long time without even speaking but both glad they are together and knowing how close it came to seperation. After a couple of hours on the road, Jack may have said "Looks like we'll have to find work on a ranch together."

Then this picture woudn't be out of sequence.

[dly64]

I know!  I thought that guy was Jack upon my first viewing too.

So, what do we think would have happened if Jack offered Ennis a ride (to wherever he was going)?  I'm not even talking about a flirtatious overture or something... I just mean a basic ride... at least to a bus station or something.  I always found this pretty harsh of Jack (also an indication of how mad/ confused he probably is at this moment).  If Jack had offered a ride to Ennis... would Ennis have taken it?

Who is to say? I like to think they would have driven off into the sunset and had the "sweet life" that Jack had hoped for. Not very realistic, though.

It is interesting your take on the ride ... I thought the same thing!! I didn't understand why Jack didn't at least ask Ennis if he could take him somewhere. I think Jack was confused. (Who knows, maybe he was scared he'd get another punch!  )

[Meryl]

By jpwagoneer
They would have taken off riding for a long time without even speaking but both glad they are together and knowing how close it came to seperation.

This reminds me of the end of "The Graduate," when Benjamin and Elaine ran out of the church and jumped on a bus and rode together without speaking.  Wouldn't it be great if Jack turned up at Ennis's wedding and pounded on the doors and yelled, "ENNIS, ENNIS, ENNIS" til Ennis turned and yelled "JACK!" and escaped with him? 

[dly64]

This reminds me of the end of "The Graduate," when Benjamin and Elaine ran out of the church and jumped on a bus and rode together without speaking.  Wouldn't it be great if Jack turned up at Ennis's wedding and pounded on the doors and yelled, "ENNIS, ENNIS, ENNIS" til Ennis turned and yelled "JACK!" and escaped with him? 

WHOA!! In my dreams!

[nakymaton]

Heh. I imagined Jack bursting into the church at "speak now or forever hold your peace," then accidentally shooting somebody... and then Jack and Ennis running from the law in some bad parody of a Western.

Fortunately, I woke up. Tell you what, my dreams are too goofy to use to stoke the day.

[Brown Eyes]

Well, goofy or not... I like the idea of Jack interrupting Ennis's wedding.  That would have been cool!

[serious crayons]

If Ennis would have gotten into the truck and they'd ridden off together, nobody would have made a movie about their lives. We'd never have heard of them, and wouldn't know to be glad that things had worked out happily.

So if there were to be a happy ending, I'd prefer it would happen at the end of the movie as we now know it. Ennis would start to drive away after the lakeside argument, then after half a mile or so he'd go, "Oh, f*ck this," and do a U-turn back to the lake. That could actually still be a movie! (Maybe not quite as good of one, though ...)

As for The Graduate, my understanding is that that sort of bewildered silence at the end is supposed to leave us thinking, OK, so now what? Benjamin and Elaine go off and get married and start a family and buy a house in the suburbs and ... become plastic, too. That probably wouldn't happen to Jack and Ennis, though.

[jpwagoneer1964]

If Ennis would have gotten into the truck and they'd ridden off together, nobody would have made a movie about their lives. We'd never have heard of them, and wouldn't know to be glad that things had worked out happily.

 

I agree there wouldn't be a movie

[dly64]

If Ennis would have gotten into the truck and they'd ridden off together, nobody would have made a movie about their lives. We'd never have heard of them, and wouldn't know to be glad that things had worked out happily.

True. Very true. But it is worth dreaming about ... I would have loved to see them together at the end. (Of course we know that would have constituted a formulaic movie and would not have evoked the passion and conversation that the film has). But it is fun to dream! 

[serious crayons]

I would have loved to see them together at the end. (Of course we know that would have constituted a formulaic movie and would not have evoked the passion and conversation that the film has).

Sometimes I think that would be fine with me. It would still be a lovely movie, I still would have enjoyed it a lot and want to see it a bunch of times and thought about it for a while and recommended it to everyone and rooted for it at Oscar time.

But if it had ended happily, then six months after seeing the movie -- hell, six days, probably -- I would have my life back.

[Mikaela]

Heh. I imagined Jack bursting into the church at "speak now or forever hold your peace," then accidentally shooting somebody... and then Jack and Ennis running from the law in some bad parody of a Western.

Fortunately, I woke up.

Reading this thread, completely unbidden I imagined another version: The one where Jack gets killed very early on by some ugly gay-bashers, and the rest of the film is the devastated Ennis tracking them down and putting his gun and his fists to good use in a huge spray of blood. I imagine that version of re-invented Hollywood gay masculinity might well have found favour with persons who were squicked by the tenderness and passion of the kissing scenes and the motel scene. Might have made them vote for the film at the Oscars, even.

Of course, they also would have lost me from their audience;  - I avoid violent revenge films like the plague.

Luckily, I managed to claw my way back to RL fromthis horrible nightmare! 



I don't think the film would have had such an impact on me if there'd been a happy ending. I know it wouldn't. I admit I've been wondering (and worrying) about why that is.   

[serious crayons]

Jack gets killed very early on by some ugly gay-bashers, and the rest of the film is the devastated Ennis tracking them down and putting his gun and his fists to good use in a huge spray of blood. 

Hey, it's not too late! "Brokeback II: Ennis' Revenge." Would you go, Mikaela ... if it included plenty of flashbacks? 

I don't think the film would have had such an impact on me if there'd been a happy ending. I know it wouldn't. I admit I've been wondering (and worrying) about why that is.   

I think it's because one of the most powerful things that hits you (I mean "you" the viewer) is the immense sadness and sense of tragedy. That's not all there is to the movie's power; there is also the positive emotions of the happy parts (TS2, the reunion, etc.) plus all the other appealing things -- romantic, aesthetic, intellectual, dramtic, literary, erotic (not necessarily in that order). So if you took the sadness and tragedy out, the film would still be good. But you'd be missing that big chunk of its impact.

[Mikaela]

Brokeback II: The revenge     

Would you go, Mikaela ... if it included plenty of flashbacks? 

*Plenty* of flashbacks? Well, let's see........ Oh, who am I kidding. Plenty of flashbacks of the right sort and I would have been first in line on premiere night for sure.

But those flashbacks had better deliver the goods! Because you know, there wouldn't only be the graphic violence. In the tradition of this type of film (given that Ennis is after all gay and therefore can't possibly just be allowed to be seen walking away scot-free in the end ) - he'd probably be fighting a personal timeline due to being mortally ill from lung cancer or some such.   

the most powerful things that hits you (I mean "you" the viewer) is the immense sadness and sense of tragedy.

Yes, it is all that. But why all that sadness and tragedy, those squashed hopes and twarthed longings and wasted lives should hold such a spell over such a long time..... it's a topic that belongs in the "Why are we like this" thread I suppose. But I'm still not sure that I fully know the answer.

[Brown Eyes]

Yes, it is all that. But why all that sadness and tragedy, those squashed hopes and twarthed longings and wasted lives should hold such a spell over such a long time..... it's a topic that belongs in the "Why are we like this" thread I suppose. But I'm still not sure that I fully know the answer.

Well, I think that tragic romances are essentially the most classic type of romance.  It seems that the romances that stand the test of time (Romeo and Juliet... to name only the most obvious) and even classical romances (a la the Classical Allusion thread from TOB) are all about a core of sadness... or a bittersweetness.  It's hard to think of a lot of great romances (literary or cinematic) that have happy, happy endings. 

And, I've said it before, but I'll repeat it here.  My very first reaction to BBM walking out of the theater after my first viewing was... "wow, they were lucky."  Of course this is a profound tragedy on many levels- from the very obvious (Jack dies young - and maybe is murdered-, Ennis had a tragic childhood, they each spend a lot of time being lonely, they couldn't figure out a way to live together, etc.) to extremely subtle emotional tragedies.  To me one of the biggest tragedies is how much time they lost by being apart so much.  The 'never enough time' tragedy really stings for me.  BUT, in the end there are little triumphs too.  Even after he's dead, Jack is able to express his love for Ennis and reach out and comfort him - help him find a little closure -with those shirts.  And Jack gets the commitment that he wanted from Ennis.  Many people don't find a true-love like they had.  And, eventhough their time together was fraught with separations... they still had twenty years of being in love.  They made each others lives happy and exciting.  To have had one kiss like the reunion kiss is something profoundly wonderful (and I think we can assume that they had more like that...).

I guess I'm preaching to the choir here... but there's really a lot of sweet with the bitter here.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Well, I think that tragic romances are essentially the most classic type of romance.  It seems that the romances that stand the test of time (Romeo and Juliet... to name only the most obvious) and even classical romances (a la the Classical Allusion thread from TOB) are all about a core of sadness... or a bittersweetness.  It's hard to think of a lot of great romances (literary or cinematic) that have happy, happy endings. 

And, I've said it before, but I'll repeat it here.  My very first reaction to BBM walking out of the theater after my first viewing was... "wow, they were lucky."  Of course this is a profound tragedy on many levels- from the very obvious (Jack dies young - and maybe is murdered-, Ennis had a tragic childhood, they each spend a lot of time being lonely, they couldn't figure out a way to live together, etc.) to extremely subtle emotional tragedies.  To me one of the biggest tragedy is how much time they lost by being apart so much.  The 'never enough time' tragedy really stings for me.  BUT, in the end there are little triumphs too.  Even after he's dead, Jack is able to express his love for Ennis and reach out and comfort him - help him find a little closure -with those shirts.  And Jack gets the commitment that he wanted from Ennis.  Many people don't find a true-love like they had.  And, eventhough their time together was fraught with separations... they still had twenty years of being in love.  They made each others lives happy and exciting.  To have had one kiss like the reunion kiss is something profoundly wonderful (and I think we can assume that they had more like that...).

I guess I'm preaching to the choir here... but there's really a lot of sweet with the bitter here.

Amen! They were so lucky in so many ways

[Brown Eyes]

Hi jpwagoneer1964!  Thanks for the nice post and timely photo!

The more I think about it... the little triumphs seem to be an interesting theme or trend.  Of course it all ends with the "biggest" triumph (probably) which is the "I swear...".  Jack has died, Ennis is sad and lonely, "society" has kept them apart in many ways, their relationship was going through some big tests at the time of their last meeting, etc.  But still through all of this the core, important thing is there...  Ennis and Jack still love each other.  None of these seemingly devastating things have really rocked that core.

[Ellemeno]

I'm late to this party - womderful thread chock full of favorite posters.  I think the reason Jack doesn't really answer Ennis in the movie (about being sore from that punch) and replies tangentially in the story (something like "You won't catch me like that again") is because he has long since forgiven Ennis.  I think Jack forgives Ennis easily again and again. 

[mvansand76]

I'm late to this party - womderful thread chock full of favorite posters.  I think the reason Jack doesn't really answer Ennis in the movie (about being sore from that punch) and replies tangentially in the story (something like "You won't catch me like that again") is because he has long since forgiven Ennis.  I think Jack forgives Ennis easily again and again. 

And I think Jack understood why Ennis threw that punch, he understood the underlying emotions like no one else, because he had the same emotions, he was feeling the same pain. That's why he wasn't acting angry anymore at the time they said goodbye...

[jpwagoneer1964]

I'm late to this party - womderful thread chock full of favorite posters.  I think the reason Jack doesn't really answer Ennis in the movie (about being sore from that punch) and replies tangentially in the story (something like "You won't catch me like that again") is because he has long since forgiven Ennis.  I think Jack forgives Ennis easily again and again. 

Jack does answer, saying softy nah when Ennis mentions the punch.

[Brown Eyes]

And I think Jack understood why Ennis threw that punch, he understood the underlying emotions like no one else, because he had the same emotions, he was feeling the same pain. That's why he wasn't acting angry anymore at the time they said goodbye...

This is a good way of looking at the situation I think.  Maybe Jack also realized (almost immediately) that Ennis would feel very, very bad about the punch... because after all Jack felt very, very bad about giving Ennis the bloody nose (even if it was more accidental).  In certain ways, there is some nice symmetry here.

I think Jack forgives Ennis easily again and again. 

It just seems that Jack is somehow able to get over things... lots of things... and just keep going.  He doesn't seem like he's one to carry a grudge (much).  He does carry a grudge about his Dad (not teaching him how to rodeo and not coming to see him ride...), but that's probably a special situation.

Jack does answer, saying softy nah when Ennis mentions the punch.

I think Jack might be mainly surprised and a little flattered at that moment in the motel when Ennis demonstrates that he's been worrying about that punch for 4 years.  Ennis is cute here because he really reveals how much he's been worrying about Jack.  Not only was he worried that Jack might have hurt feelings over the punch, but he's also clearly been very worried about Jack winding up in the army.  In a way, that kind of concern over Jack's well-being is very romantic... and I think Jack gets this as he's lying there.

 

[dly64]

This is a good way of looking at the situation I think.  Maybe Jack also realized (almost immediately) that Ennis would feel very, very bad about the punch... because after all Jack felt very, very bad about giving Ennis the bloody nose (even if it was more accidental).  In certain ways, there is some nice symmetry here.

It just seems that Jack is somehow able to get over things... lots of things... and just keep going.  He doesn't seem like he's one to carry a grudge (much).

The more I think about this, the more I think the “punch” is emblematic of Jack and Ennis’ relationship. Unintentionally or not, Ennis delivers a “punch” to Jack over and over. The first actual punch is symbolic of the pain Ennis is internalizing but is unable to express verbally. Post mountain, however, Jack is constantly getting “beaten up”. Think about it …. when they finally see each other after four years, Ennis refuses to have a life with Jack. This is the theme for the rest of their lives. The one time when Jack thinks Ennis has reconsidered is after Ennis’ divorce. Jack travels 14 hours only to find that Ennis is still unable to give himself to Jack. That scene is a turning point. Yes, Jack doesn’t hold a “grudge” only because he loves Ennis so deeply and can not imagine a life without him. At that moment Jack knows that the best he’ll get is the few “fishing” trips once or twice a year. It is a devastating moment. It doesn’t mean that Jack doesn’t try …. “Maybe it’s time you moved outta there. You know, set yourself up somewhere different. Maybe Texas.” As usual, Ennis rejects the idea. By that point, however, Jack is not as affected by the pain. It has become a pattern and Jack knows it will not change.

I think Jack might be mainly surprised and a little flattered at that moment in the motel when Ennis demonstrates that he's been worrying about that punch for 4 years.  Ennis is cute here because he really reveals how much he's been worrying about Jack.  Not only was he worried that Jack might have hurt feelings over the punch, but he's also clearly been very worried about Jack winding up in the army.  In a way, that kind of concern over Jack's well-being is very romantic... and I think Jack gets this as he's lying there.

The motel scene is wonderful because it is so intimate and honest. This scene shows how much they truly love each other. It is one time (albeit not the only time) where Ennis makes himself vulnerable. He is painfully honest when he says, “I’m stuck with what I got here.” The expression on his face is one of pure sadness. It is obvious throughout that scene how much Ennis has missed Jack. Look at how many times Ennis caresses Jack’s arms. It is lovely. After that, however, Ennis’ fears overtake his feelings for Jack. Thus begins the pattern of hurting Jack over and over again.

[Front-Ranger]

I really like reading about your thought processes here. This has caused me to rethink that whole scene.

[Brown Eyes]

Hi Diane,

Nice post!  Sometimes I feel like watching Jack get hurt over and over again in the film is like watching a puppy being kicked.  
 

Sometimes I can hardly stand to watch certain scenes... especially the post-divorce fiasco as you pointed out.  I think one of the hardest parts of this dilemma he was in with Ennis is that he knows that this relationship is the right one.  He knows that he loves Ennis and he knows that Ennis loves him back... how incredibly frustrating to have the thing that he wants (or that they both want), but only in little doses and the full-blown expression of their love (living together) just beyond his/ their reach.  And the main obstacle to making things progress is the fear in Ennis's head.  When Jack suggests Ennis move to Texas, you can tell he's desperately trying to find new tactics to push Ennis beyond the demons in his head and to consider some new alternatives.  I think Jack's hopefulness about being able to pry Ennis away from his painful attachment to his sense of societal duty comes from the moment in the motel.  Just as you said... when Ennis makes that horribly sad statement - "I’m stuck with what I got here"- I think Jack hears this as an opportunity.  Jack probably hears this as a sorrow for Ennis that Jack can actually help "fix".  Of course, Jack doesn't know the extent of the emotional pain and complexity that he's dealing with in terms of Ennis until the Earl story.

[jpwagoneer1964]

A big reason Ennis wouldn't Have a life with Jack because he didn't want to leave his children or have Jack leave Bobby. True strength in character.

[dly64]

A big reason Ennis wouldn't Have a life with Jack because he didn't want to leave his children or have Jack leave Bobby. True strength in character.

Although I see your point, I don't think that is Ennis' primary motivation for not having a life with Jack. IMO, Ennis uses his daughters as an excuse. (I am not saying that Ennis does not love his daughters or that Jack doesn’t love his son. I am saying that this is not what keeps them apart). The true reason … what keeps him from having a life with Jack … is his fear. That is why the Earl and Rich story is so important. It is the image of Earl that colors everything Ennis says and does (in relation to Jack). It is the ghost in the room. It is always there. Despite how much he feels for Jack, he is unable to rid himself of the image of a man who was dismembered and beaten to death. Ennis assumes that this will happen to Jack and/or himself.

Sometimes I can hardly stand to watch certain scenes... especially the post-divorce fiasco as you pointed out.  I think one of the hardest parts of this dilemma he was in with Ennis is that he knows that this relationship is the right one.  He knows that he loves Ennis and he knows that Ennis loves him back... how incredibly frustrating to have the thing that he wants (or that they both want), but only in little doses and the full-blown expression of their love (living together) just beyond his/ their reach.  And the main obstacle to making things progress is the fear in Ennis's head. 

I couldn’t agree with you more. The post-divorce scene is the most difficult (for me) to watch. The pain is so palpable … I can hardly breathe. Although the following seems OT, it really isn’t. When Jack drives away after Ennis has said, one more time, that he is unwilling to leave his life for one with Jack, this song is playing on the radio:

A Love That Will Never Grow Old
Music: Gustavo Santaolalla
Lyrics: Bernie Taupin
Sung By: Emmylou Harris

Go to sleep, may your sweet dreams come true
Just lay back in my arms for one more night
I've this crazy old notion that calls me sometimes
Saying this one's the love of our lives.

Cause I know a love that will never grow old
And I know a love that will never grow old.

When you wake up the world may have changed
But trust in me, I'll never falter or fail
Just the smile in your eyes, it can light up the night,
And your laughter's like wind in my sails.

Cause I know a love that will never grow old
And I know a love that will never grow old.

Lean on me, let our hearts beat in time,
Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long.
Who cares where we go on this rutted old road
In a world that may say that we're wrong.

Cause I know a love that will never grow old
And I know a love that will never grow old.


This song is placed purposefully. It expresses how Jack feels at that moment. It is a devastating expression of what could be. It kills me every time I hear it.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

...then gets Aguirre’s “bring ’em down” news (double meaning of “Bring him down”--meaning Ennis--and it certainly worked).

Whoa, this is interesting. I never thought of that!

I find it so profound how it is illustrated that Ennis has thought about that moment when they parted in 1963 recurringly for the next four years.

I noticed how Jack spit in that short little snip of a scene after the punch and Ennis has this taken aback expression on his face; he looked worried that Jack was upset.

And yeah, I think Ennis felt really guilty and that was another little factor to his alley breakdown.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Although I see your point, I don't think that is Ennis' primary motivation for not having a life with Jack. IMO, Ennis uses his daughters as an excuse. (I am not saying that Ennis does not love his daughters or that Jack doesn’t love his son. I am saying that this is not what keeps them apart). The true reason … what keeps him from having a life with Jack … is his fear. That is why the Earl and Rich story is so important. It is the image of Earl that colors everything Ennis says and does (in relation to Jack). It is the ghost in the room. It is always there. Despite how much he feels for Jack, he is unable to rid himself of the image of a man who was dismembered and beaten to death. Ennis assumes that this will happen to Jack and/or himself.

 

[jpwagoneer1964]

Although I see your point, I don't think that is Ennis' primary motivation for not having a life with Jack. IMO, Ennis uses his daughters as an excuse. (I am not saying that Ennis does not love his daughters or that Jack doesn’t love his son. I am saying that this is not what keeps them apart). The true reason … what keeps him from having a life with Jack … is his fear. That is why the Earl and Rich story is so important. It is the image of Earl that colors everything Ennis says and does (in relation to Jack). It is the ghost in the room. It is always there. Despite how much he feels for Jack, he is unable to rid himself of the image of a man who was dismembered and beaten to death. Ennis assumes that this will happen to Jack and/or himself.

 

I do think that if Ehnnis's fears were much less, he would not yet be inclined to move on with Jack if they could not both be near their children intil they were grown. Would would be different is that Ennis would have expressed this to Jack so there would be plan for a future, Jack would have been less careless and likely survived. 

[2robots4u]

The "sore from that punch" comment may not necessrily refer to the hit Ennis gave Jack, but may have reference to TS1...anal entry is often referred to as a "punch".  This is one of those situtions for personal interpretation, and doesn't change the meaning of their conversation either way.
 

[Brown Eyes]

Wow Phillip!  Thanks for the bump.  Yeah, this did turn out to be a good thread... lots of serious discussions.

[CarlaMom2]

I feel Ennis's anger because he wasn't ready for the summer to end when it did.  He carries alot of anger in him anyway.  I also agree with the whole"foolin' leads to cryin" thing, too.  I think he was confused about going back home.  He went right back into shut down Ennis.  He was loving, laighing and sharing intimacy over the summer with Jack, and then now what?  Who is he now and what did he do?  The mountains (Jack) changed him and he didn't expect the feelings to be so strong.

[mlewisusc]

 

[Shakesthecoffecan]

True, ennis didn't explain until lated about Earl and Rich, that punch could have held the meaning for him that he had become like those murderers.