"I figured you were sore from that punch"

[dly64]

Just to clarify, Diane, when I say Jack is trying to "fix" something, I think I mean exactly what I think you're saying -- he realizes they love each other, the next step is to have a life together -- i.e., Jack wants to "fix" the problem of them being apart, rather than "stand" the situation, as Ennis believes they must do.

Now that you are clarifying ... yes, I see it the same way.

Do you think the idea of living together came before Ennis made his "I'm stuck" comment? But they'd been reunited only, I don't know, maybe an hour or two by then. Or do you think Jack got the idea as he was redlining it up to Wyoming? My feeling is that, while it may have crossed Jack's mind before then, he couldn't have really thinking about it seriously before the reunion, because he couldn't have been sure about how Ennis would respond when he got there.

I have changed my mind on this in the last couple of minutes. I think it was after Ennis says "I'm stuck ...." ... especially since Jack says right before that, "What are we gonna do now?"  Had he been thinking about the "sweet life", he would have said it at that time. When Jack does say it, however  .... OMG! It just breaks my heart! Jack says it with such sincerity and vulnerability. Then Ennis’ response ... "I told you it ain't gonna be that way." Just one in a series of heartbreaks (for both).

[Brown Eyes]

Amanda, judging from the context I'm assuming the "not noticing how upset Jack is" in your last sentence is meant to read "NOW noticing"?

Oops.  Yup, thanks for catching that.  It was definitely a typo (and one that changed what I meant to say quite significantly). 

So, I fixed it in the original post.
 

Anyway, I think the urge to fix and to stand are both manifestations of love for the respective characters.  I think Jack's wanting to live with Ennis is of course... first and foremost about love... which would simultaneously fix Ennis's "I'm stuck" idea.  I think Ennis believes that he's "standing" his "miserable fucking life" and arranging the clandestine meetings in the mountains (which are ultimately not entirely satisfying for either him or Jack... and are arrangements that both he and Jack have to "stand") all for his love of Jack.  He feels like he's arranged his whole life (quit jobs, remained an outsider in his town, etc., etc... leading to the "It's because of you Jack that I'm like this."  comment) in order to facilitate his relationship with Jack and he's kept Jack on the "short leash" with the secret meetings because he probably believes that he's protecting Jack (and himself) from homophobic violence and attitudes.  And, of course the underlying sense of needing to protect Jack is also a manifestation of love (even if facilitating this idea of protection means that he has to "stand" being away from Jack for long stretches).

It's interesting that at various points in the movie each character demonstrates a willingness to both fix and stand.  The more I think about this the more complex it seems... but it's probably a topic for another thread...
 

[serious crayons]

he's kept Jack on the "short leash" with the secret meetings because he probably believes that he's protecting Jack (and himself) from homophobic violence and attitudes.  And, of course the underlying sense of needing to protect Jack is also a manifestation of love (even if facilitating this idea of protection means that he has to "stand" being away from Jack for long stretches).

You know, it just occurred to me -- I don't know why it didn't before; maybe you all got this long ago -- that although Jack is usually the comforter, Ennis is usually the protector. He looks up with concern at Jack riding the mountain under a storm cloud, he orders soup, he shoots an elk, he worries about Earl's fate befalling them (and possibly moreso Jack, judging from the ominous symbols in the dead sheep/naked laundry scene), he regrets that in the end he wasn't there to save Jack.

All that suggests to me that neither the punch nor his Mexico threat are deliberate and/or sincere.

[Amber]

From that experience, I have come to the conclusion that Ennis needed to be mad at Jack, and make Jack somehow hate him, to be able to let go. He needed to ease the pain, so he punches Jack in the face and hard. The split hits harder on Ennis because he was a pessimist. He probably couldn't think of way of seeing Jack again. He thought he was losing him forever. We all saw how bad the split hurts him. When Ennis sees Jack driving away, he gets cramps, drops on his knees and punches the wall very hard to try to ease that horrible pain he was feeling.

I apologize I didn't make through the rest of the threads before this one jumped out at me.

This is *exactly* what I thought from the very first time I saw the movie.  I even said to my husband "Just look at how hurt he is" during their wrestling match/punch.  I understand what you are saying here.  He's devestated that he's being torn away before he'd had a chance to prepare himself for it and he doesn't know how to express what he's feeling so confusion comes out as a punch.

I wonder how Ennis would have reacted if he had the chance to mentally prepare himself - I bet it would have made it even harder on him.

[Brown Eyes]

All that suggests to me that neither the punch nor his Mexico threat are deliberate and/or sincere.

Heya Bud,

Could you explain what you mean a bit more here?

I agree that I definitely don't think the punch was deliberate (I certainly hope not) and I think we all hope and believe that his threats at the end were completely empty and insincere.  This might feel like a very different movie if we thought for a second that Ennis had even the slightest urge to kill Jack... and for that matter it would feel very different if that punch felt like "domestic violence" in the most classic sense of the phrase... which somehow it really doesn't (an aspect of the film that still puzzles and amazes me).  
 

[serious crayons]

Could you explain what you mean a bit more here?

Amanda, I'm not sure what part you'd like me to clarify, but I'll give it a shot. As a very wise poster on another thread once wrote,

I think we're meant to see Ennis as a huge contrast to his father.  "We're supposed to guard the sheep not eat them."  Ennis is definitely not one of the predators responsible for the menace of predator loss.  He's horrified by his father, it traumatizes him and messes up his sense of his own identity, but he certainly doesn't agree with him.

  (That post appeared tonight, and the person who wrote it was Amanda.)

Anyway, I thought you put it very well, and that gets at what I mean. Ennis is a protector, therefore wouldn't deliberately hurt Jack. I guess the punch was technically deliberate, but it was also impulsive and later regretted -- IMO, it does not constitute a sincere desire to injure Jack.

(Not that those are excuses -- I'm sure the same could be said of many domestic abusers. In other ways, though, I don't think I'd compare this to domestic violence. What if two friends got in a fight, both young and strong and healthy and equally matched, and one punched the other? Regrettable, sure, but to me a lot less scary and serious than the term "domestic violence" implies. So does the fact that they're lovers take it into that realm?)

Back to the other question. With the Mexico threat, Ennis was lashing out. Unlike some people who say Ennis meant that threat because he was taught that gay people should be murdered, I believe what you suggested above: Ennis was messed up by his father's actions, but that doesn't mean he has become an exact duplicate of his father or that he feels obliged to dutifully follow his every action. So no, he wouldn't actually hurt Jack then, either.

[dly64]

You know, it just occurred to me -- I don't know why it didn't before; maybe you all got this long ago -- that although Jack is usually the comforter, Ennis is usually the protector. He looks up with concern at Jack riding the mountain under a storm cloud, he orders soup, he shoots an elk, he worries about Earl's fate befalling them (and possibly more so Jack, judging from the ominous symbols in the dead sheep/naked laundry scene), he regrets that in the end he wasn't there to save Jack.

All that suggests to me that neither the punch nor his Mexico threat are deliberate and/or sincere.

I have felt for awhile that Ennis' threats or reactions were not deliberate. IMO, that is how Ennis handles his emotions ... by deflecting the situation off onto someone else or lashing out physically. Your first paragraph triggered a thought, however … I have seen Jack as the comforter, more in touch with his feelings, a dreamer, ready to take the plunge and make a life with Ennis. Honestly, I never saw Ennis in terms of “a protector” … but from what you have said, I think that is true. Conversely, there are times when Ennis is also the comforter, the one who takes the initiative. Think about the reunion kiss; the arm around Jack after Jack’s confessing that he misses Ennis so much he can hardly stand it; the dozy embrace. Furthermore, it is Ennis who breaks down in tears … partially because he can no longer contain his feelings and partially, IMO, because he can’t imagine his life without Jack (as when he breaks down post mountain and at the lake scene). Jack only cries once … and then quickly squelches his tears and drives to Mexico. So, it is not just Ennis who holds back his feelings. Jack does it, too … but in a different way. Jack gets frustrated and meets his needs sexually, physically. Ennis, however, is the only one who can meet Jack’s emotional needs.

Interestingly, neither one can be placed in a single category because they are like real humans … complex.  For me, I have often looked at Ennis as the one who did not understand that he loved Jack until it was too late. I may have to reconsider that POV… both Ennis and Jack never used the word “love” to each other. Although Jack was gregarious with Ennis, he really wasn’t that way without him. Examples … Lureen approaching Jack at the bar and Jack looking rather embarrassed, shy; rarely (if ever) standing up to Lureen or her dad (until the Thanksgiving scene, that is); Randall taking the initiative after the benefit; et.al).

Hmmm … do I need to re-think my entire POV? Maybe … to some degree.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I have felt for awhile that Ennis' threats or reactions were not deliberate. IMO, that is how Ennis handles his emotions ... by deflecting the situation off onto someone else or lashing out physically. Your first paragraph triggered a thought, however … I have seen Jack as the comforter, more in touch with his feelings, a dreamer, ready to take the plunge and make a life with Ennis. Honestly, I never saw Ennis in terms of “a protector” … but from what you have said, I think that is true. Conversely, there are times when Ennis is also the comforter, the one who takes the initiative. Think about the reunion kiss; the arm around Jack after Jack’s confessing that he misses Ennis so much he can hardly stand it; the dozy embrace. Furthermore, it is Ennis who breaks down in tears … partially because he can no longer contain his feelings and partially, IMO, because he can’t imagine his life without Jack (as when he breaks down post mountain and at the lake scene). Jack only cries once … and then quickly squelches his tears and drives to Mexico. So, it is not just Ennis who holds back his feelings. Jack does it, too … but in a different way. Jack gets frustrated and meets his needs sexually, physically. Ennis, however, is the only one who can meet Jack’s emotional needs.

Interestingly, neither one can be placed in a single category because they are like real humans … complex.  For me, I have often looked at Ennis as the one who did not understand that he loved Jack until it was too late. I may have to reconsider that POV… both Ennis and Jack never used the word “love” to each other. Although Jack was gregarious with Ennis, he really wasn’t that way without him. Examples … Lureen approaching Jack at the bar and Jack looking rather embarrassed, shy; rarely (if ever) standing up to Lureen or her dad (until the Thanksgiving scene, that is); Randall taking the initiative after the benefit; et.al).

Hmmm … do I need to re-think my entire POV? Maybe … to some degree.

I think Jack cried after the punch, was certianly close to tears when "Sometimes I miss you so much I can...." and at the lake scene when he goees to hug Ennis.

[dly64]

I think Jack cried after the punch, was certainly close to tears when "Sometimes I miss you so much I can...." and at the lake scene when he goes to hug Ennis.

I see where you are coming from ... don't know that I agree100%. There are times, as you have said, that Jack is certainly close to tears. I just find it interesting that each one handles his emotions so completely different from the other. Ennis literally breaks down. Jack channels his feelings of frustration and need into having sex with other men (IMO). They both have troubles expressing the truth to each other. Ironically, they are both more themselves when they are together versus when they are apart.

[Brown Eyes]

Amanda, I'm not sure what part you'd like me to clarify, but I'll give it a shot.

LOL.  I just thought you might have meant you thought of a whole new way to look at Ennis's motivations here... or had more to say about what really did spur the punch/threats.  I think it was the kind of misunderstanding that comes from typing/reading vs. actually talking.