What Scene Could have been left out

[Katie77]

There are a couple of scenes in the movie which i think were irrelevant, the one i think the most irrelevant was the fireworks scene....

If ive missed any out, let me know what one you dont like.

[slayers_creek_oth]

I gotta say that it wouldn't be complete without the whole thing....all scenes intact...

But if I HAD to choose I would probably also pick the firework scene...

[moremojo]

Okay, I voted for Fireworks scene, but I have to qualify that carefully. In terms of propelling the narrative and developing the characters, I think that scene has less relevance than the other scenes listed. But the scene is still important, both thematically and aesthetically. I loathe violence, but I have to admit I love Ennis in this scene (when do I not love Ennis?), and some of the scene's resonance is mysterious. It's hard to articulate why it moves me, but move me it does--I wouldn't want the film to lack any of the elements we all know and love.

Scott

[David]

None of the Above!

   I think all of those scenes were relevant.     BUT !   you missed the scene I would have omitted.   The scene with Cassie talking to Alma Jr.   It was Ok, but my least favorite in the movie.

   The Fireworks scene is important for a few reasons.   It sets the timeline for one.  We know it is 1966 by the announcement.   We see that Ennis and Alma do go out and do stuff.   Something that Ennis doesn't want to do with her after the reunion with Jack.    And it shows how Ennis uses violence to release his pent up frustrations. 

So i think all of the choices you listed are important scenes.     

I need less Cassie and more Jack!    LOL.   

[vkm91941]

I ditch the whole Cassie story arc, didn't work for me at all, and it's not from the original story.

[Katie77]

Yeah, me too.....you know i was going to put the Cassie scenes in the poll, but i thought i would be the only one that got bored with it, even though i can see where it played its part in the movie.....showing that Ennis tried to have a relationship with a woman again, but he didnt really care one way or another......and in fact, he did to Cassie what he did to Jack in a way....never committing, putting other things first....

Lets face it, he was juggling with his own sexuality, and how painful that must be...in my opinion that would be worse than being gay and hiding in the closet for fear of rejection, so my heart goes out to those out there who are juggling.

Anyway, for what its worth, I still think the fireworks scene was a waste of time that could have been spent on another love scene or kiss....matter of fact, I would have preferred if the whole movie was love scenes and kissing....but I know that would not have made up all the story, but i know it would have been damn good watching.....

[Midnight24]

I agree with the fireworks scene, it could have been used for something else (possibly more Jack/Ennis lovin  ) But I think all parts of the movie or essential and there are very very very few I would actually take out (probably only one scene and that would be the Cassie and Alma Jr. one.)

[delalluvia]

I'd ditch the fireworks scene.  While very cinematic, we didn't need to know what year it was from that scene, since the rodeo scene immediately after also states the year.  Both scenes were a mistake, considering that building the scene where Jack met Lureen - also not part of the story - messed up the timeline anyway and left open the possibility Lureen was pregnant at the time she met Jack.

[ednbarby]

I wouldn't change a single cotton-pickin' thing.  But if I had to, I'd nix Old Man Twist spitting into that cup.  As appropriate and fitting as it is figuratively speaking, I have to look away every time 'cause it's just so damn gross.

[Mikaela]

**Scratches head**

I didn't vote, because I think all these scenes are necessary, or at least relevant, to the plot & story & character arc.

If I had to point to one scene I really think should be removed, it'd be the "pissant /used to ride bulls" scene. I still can't see what that one is supposed to bring to the telling of the tale at all.

[David]

**Scratches head**

I didn't vote, because I think all these scenes are necessary, or at least relevant, to the plot & story & character arc.

If I had to point to one scene I really think should be removed, it'd be the "pissant /used to ride bulls" scene. I still can't see what that one is supposed to bring to the telling of the tale at all.

Ah!   a subtle but important scene.     This just reinforces that Jack always tries hard but never gets any respect.    Even his wife at this point doesn't defend him after hearing that comment.      She could have said something like : "Who? Jack?  oh he has won several prizes, don't let his low key demeanor fool ya".      She couldn't tell the man :"Watch yer mouth, that's my husband and he has won contests".  This guy could be a big shot regular customer of hers.   And you don't run off a guy who buys $100,000 combines.   

But as I said, it was to show that Jack was unappreciated in so many ways....

Poor Jack....<sniff sniff>    

[moremojo]

**Scratches head**

I didn't vote, because I think all these scenes are necessary, or at least relevant, to the plot & story & character arc.

If I had to point to one scene I really think should be removed, it'd be the "pissant /used to ride bulls" scene. I still can't see what that one is supposed to bring to the telling of the tale at all.

I'd have to agree with your first statement, despite my earlier grudging vote for the Fireworks scene. As for the "used to ride bulls" scene, I think that was supposed to convey how little respect Jack earned from the folks in his community. For reasons that are unfathomable to me, Jack, in spite of his tender, nurturing nature, seems to inspire love in no one save Ennis, Lureen, and Mrs. Twist.

(David just beat me to the punch, but I'm a gonna submit my post anyways).

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'd ditch the fireworks scene.  While very cinematic, we didn't need to know what year it was from that scene, since the rodeo scene immediately after also states the year.  Both scenes were a mistake, considering that building the scene where Jack met Lureen - also not part of the story - messed up the timeline anyway and left open the possibility Lureen was pregnant at the time she met Jack.

What Del said about the fireworks scene! (And the rest of the comment is pretty good, too!)

For me the Thanksgiving Dinner at the Twists was a close second--actually, it was kind of difficult to choose.

Some of you folks might get an argument over ditching the Cassie subplot. From posts elsewhere, I've developed a new respect for the importance of that subplot in Ennis's character development, especially its denoument--his reaction after she tells him, "Girls don't fall in love with fun."

[moremojo]

What Del said about the fireworks scene! (And the rest of the comment is pretty good, too!)

Is anyone else reminded in the fireworks scene of the film Billy Jack? I know I was, but I'm not sure if anyone else has cited that. I wonder if the scene may in part be an hommage to that earlier film. If so, its function in the narrative may well be secondary to the iconic/cinematic flavor that it evokes.

[David]

For me the Thanksgiving Dinner at the Twists was a close second--actually, it was kind of difficult to choose.

NOOOO!      I love the Thanksgiving scene at the Twists!

This shows us how hard Jack had it at home.   And the point where he finally stands up to L.D. also provided some comic relief to the audience in an otherwise tense drama.

But I love the way Jack looked frustrated and anxious even after he yells at L.D.

[ednbarby]

But I love the way Jack looked frustrated and anxious even after he yells at L.D.

NO doubt.  I've said before here how I think the way the blood rises in Jake's (yes, Jake's) neck and face during that scene, and then the way his hands are shaking and his breathing is choked with emotion when he goes to stand up and start carving is a thing of beauty.  He just nailed that scene.  And I've seen it and heard it for real in my husband after he let my stepmother have it when she *so* richly deserved it once when Will was eight weeks old and he'd had it up to his eyeballs with her constant criticism of our parenting (and years of her propagation of negativity about everything else we ever did before then).  Ed was just stunned by it when he saw it, and reacted perfectly to Lureen's little smile of satisfaction just the way I expected him to, because he's seen that for real, too.

About a minute later, he said 'ignorant ass...' and chuckled under his breath, as if he were thinking 'wish I'd used that one.'

[Mikaela]

As for the "used to ride bulls" scene, I think that was supposed to convey how little respect Jack earned from the folks in his community. For reasons that are unfathomable to me, Jack, in spite of his tender, nurturing nature, seems to inspire love in no one save Ennis, Lureen, and Mrs. Twist.

and

This just reinforces that Jack always tries hard but never gets any respect.    (  )  But as I said, it was to show that Jack was unappreciated in so many ways....

I'm sure  you are both right in this. But I still don't see what the film achieves in showing us that Jack is not respected and appreciated.  For one, I find it hard to believe that someone as affable and charming as Jack wasn't well- liked in his community. And surely his plight in loving and longing for Ennis wouldn't have been any less poignant or difficult if he was respected by people in the local community? Quite possibly, and on the contrary, showing him as a well-liked person would also have meant opportunities to showcase how empty all of that was to him, when he couldn't have the one thing he really wanted in his life....

[David]

I think it goes back to some of Jacks other statements.    "I can't please my old man no way no how".       Jack is full of hope and dreams.  But like his father says, "Like much of the things Jack says never come to pass".      Jack is always being shot down by Ennis too.     As even Jake Gyllenhaal said about his character: "What Jack is to me is someone that tries real hard even if he fails all the time."

The "Pissant" scene also shows how Lureen is passive about Jack too.

[David]

I've said before here how I think the way the blood rises in Jake's (yes, Jake's) neck and face during that scene, and then the way his hands are shaking and his breathing is choked with emotion when he goes to stand up and start carving is a thing of beauty.  He just nailed that scene. 

Barb!  I love ya!     You understand exactly what I see in Jake/Jack there.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Barb!  I love ya!     You understand exactly what I see in Jake/Jack there.

Oh, I love the Twist Thanksgiving scene, and I love the way both Jake and Anne play it. (Love that, "Daddy. [Pause]  DADDY." It's actually my favorite Lureen scene.) But I had to set some standard for picking an answer.

We could probably have gotten by without seeing Old Man Twist spit into his cup (eeew) but I interpreted that choice as not just what I might have called the shot of Old Man Twist spitting into his cup, but the whole scene of him telling Ennis about the ranch neighbor, etc., which is essential to the plot.

Maybe "dancing with Lashawn" could have been left out, but I looked at that in light of Jack's line to Ennis about having something going with a ranch foreman's wife.

But the Twist Thanksgiving scene was clearly invented just to balance the uber-essential "Ennis and Alma Thanksgiving confrontation," and I don't think it really does much for the plot. That was the basis for my decision.

[ednbarby]

But the Twist Thanksgiving scene was clearly invented just to balance the uber-essential "Ennis and Alma Thanksgiving confrontation," and I don't think it really does much for the plot. That was the basis for my decision.

I beg to differ.  It shows that Lureen is on Jack's side where L.D. is concerned (and yes, I know her look to him in the doorway when L.D. says "Isn't [Bobby] just the spittin' image of his grandpa?" does that, too, but it doesn't hurt to reinforce that).  It shows that Jack doesn't just take it when someone implies that he's not a real man, which L.D. is clearly doing when he says "You want your boy to grow up to be a man, dontcha?  And men watch football (implication: You're not a real man so therefore you don't care to watch it)."  It shows that Jack is involved in raising Bobby.  And perhaps most important, it shows that Jack views his relationship with Lureen and Bobby as a team effort.  He's not just phoning it in like Ennis is.  He may have settled, too, but he's more invested in the Now aspect of parenting and marriage than Ennis is.

Yep.  I'd say that does a lot for the plot.

[Sheyne]

tough call.. but the fireworks scene got it for me.. only just..

The others, probably with the exception of Jack dancing with LaShawn, were all integral to the plot..

[ednbarby]

Just want to say that I love your sig line, Sheyne.  Reminds me of mine at another board:  "Studies show jogging adds years to your life.  But then you spend them jogging."

[serious crayons]

"Studies show jogging adds years to your life.  But then you spend them jogging."

 

How did I miss this thread before now? Now there's so much to catch up on! My first reaction was, none of the above, I'd give up something really tiny, like the scene of Ennis throwing hay off the truck -- and immediately realized, no way, I want every single second of Ennis intact. How about Jack showing Bobby how to drive the combine -- no, that scene establishes Jack's nice relationship with Bobby (in contrast to Jack's with his own dad).

Then I thought of the pissant scene -- perfect. It's short, inessential to the plot, virtually pointless, and seems unfair to both Jack and Lureen. Why is it necessary to establish Jack's unpopularity with anyone except for LD Newsome and maybe Jimbo? As Mikaela says, why would anyone not like Jack? And why show Lureen treating Jack disrespectfully? To me, she seems a perfectly loving wife, setting aside her increasing bitterness over you-know-what.

But Katie, I suspect you chose more important scenes to make the decision more challenging. So among those, I'd pick the fireworks scene. It accomplishes some fairly important things -- demonstrates Ennis' hot temper, gives us the memorable biker characters, shows how Ennis fights with men he's not in love with, contrasts with his less effective fighting on Thanksgiving, expresses his frustration over missing Jack or his resentment of rude heterosexual men or whatever, and sets up the iconic American image -- so striking as the finale to the movie trailer! -- of cowboy with fireworks. (I know some argue that it causes Alma to fear Ennis' violence, which to me seems unrealistic.)

But if it were omitted from the movie, I don't think we'd miss much, whereas with all the other scenes listed, we would.

Scott, now that you mention it, that DOES remind me of Billy Jack! Because Ennis kicks the one biker in the face, just like Billy Jack does when he beats up the racists! I think this registered subconsciously, but it took your post to make me realize it.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Does the "pissant" scene demonstrate that people dislike Jack, or that people disrespect Jack? I submit that dislike and disrespect aren't necessarily the same thing. Indeed, who wouldn't like Jack? But I think that it's perfectly possible to find someone likeable but for any variety of reasons, justifiable or unjustifiable, not have much respect for that person--other than, one would hope, for the modicum of respect that all human beings owe each other.

I'm holding my ground on the dispensability of the Twist Thanksgiving scene. It adds to the film by it's presence, but we wouldn't miss anything essential from the plot if it weren't there.

[ednbarby]

I'm holding my ground on the dispensability of the Twist Thanksgiving scene. It adds to the film by it's presence, but we wouldn't miss anything essential from the plot if it weren't there.

Well, how about this - since you say the pissant scene is indispensible, doesn't it beg for a counterpart - for something that shows that while others obviously disrespect Jack, he does not disrespect himself?  I say if you're gonna have one, you need to have the other.

[serious crayons]

Jeff: You're right to draw the distinction between disrespect and dislike. But Jack doesn't really seem worthy of such scorn on either basis.

Barb: That would be OK. Though I think the very fact you know that he doesn't disrespect himself suggests that message is already well conveyed. I think he shows that in pretty much every scene he's in!

[Jeff Wrangler]

Jeff: You're right to draw the distinction between disrespect and dislike. But Jack doesn't really seem worthy of such scorn on either basis.

I agree. I'm thinking maybe they overemphasized it to drive the point home--just to make sure we didn't miss it.

[tomtrueman]

When I see a movie, I always take it on faith that every scene is there for a reason, even if we might not always be sure what the director intended to show by it. 

For me, the whole movie is a perfect unit, and I wouldn't take any of it away.  In the same way, though, I also don't like to see deleted scenes in a special edition DVD, because the director had made a choice not to include them -- and besides, they weren't in the movie I fell in love with.

As for my LEAST FAVOURITE scene, I'd have to say it's the one where Ennis's vicious bastard of a father dragged his innocent nine-year-old son and forced him to look at the tortured and mutilated corpse of a man his father himself may have murdered.  I'd never delete the scene, because it was important to explain why Ennis was so damaged emotionally -- but I find the whole thing so horrifying that I'm appalled that so many others seem so casual about it.  And of the ten times I saw the movie in the theatres, I only looked at Earl the first time.

[ednbarby]

When I see a movie, I always take it on faith that every scene is there for a reason, even if we might not always be sure what the director intended to show by it. 

For me, the whole movie is a perfect unit, and I wouldn't take any of it away.  In the same way, though, I also don't like to see deleted scenes in a special edition DVD, because the director had made a choice not to include them -- and besides, they weren't in the movie I fell in love with.

As for my LEAST FAVOURITE scene, I'd have to say it's the one where Ennis's vicious bastard of a father dragged his innocent nine-year-old son and forced him to look at the tortured and mutilated corpse of a man his father himself may have murdered.  I'd never delete the scene, because it was important to explain why Ennis was so damaged emotionally -- but I find the whole thing so horrifying that I'm appalled that so many others seem so casual about it.  And of the ten times I saw the movie in the theatres, I only looked at Earl the first time.

I have to look away every time, too.  Same goes for the fleeting image of Jack's face covered in blood toward the end.

When my husband finally watched the movie, he gasped when Ennis described what had been done to Earl and said, "Jesus."  He did the same when the attack of Jack was shown.  Later, he said he appreciated that they showed both so fleetingly and not gratuitously but that even so, he couldn't get the idea of either of those murders out of his head.  Which tells me they did both just right.

I'm with you, I really wouldn't change a thing.  And I don't care to watch deleted scenes, either.  At least not in the case of a perfect film like this.  It's like, if someone said, "Hey, I got a hold of the deleted scenes from "Casablanca."  Wanna see 'em?"  I'd say HELL, no.

[JT]

I don't like the old man Twist spitting.  Important but gross.  I'm not too thrill about the scene of Jack making out with Laureen either.  He seems to enjoy it way too much IMO.  Just dancing with her seems adequate to me.