Author Topic: Economic Gender Gaps: In the U.S. and Internationally  (Read 21587 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Economic Gender Gaps: In the U.S. and Internationally
« on: November 12, 2008, 03:19:41 pm »

I've been thinking that it's important to have a thread here in the new forum about the issue of women and economic inequality.  This most certainly can turn into a wide-ranging discussion.

I thought I'd start by posting an article I just found a minute ago on CNBC's website. [Sorry that the very interesting chart at the end copies in such a messy way... I don't know how to format a neat and tidy chart here in a post.]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/27674429
Gender Gap Narrows, But US Trails in Equality Stakes

Equality between the sexes improved globally in 2008, according to the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap report. Norway topped the poll for cutting the gender gap, but the United States trailed Western countries in 27th place.

Despite the modest ranking, the US is making progress in terms of sexual equality and is set to gain further, Saadia Zahidi, head of consentience at the World Economic Forum, told CNBC.com.

The US result was held back by the relatively small percentage of women currently working in political decision-making positions, Zahidi said. But that number is set to jump as more and more women make it into high-level political jobs, she said.

The US is currently just bellow Cuba and Barbados.

Finland, Sweden, Iceland and New Zealand all joined Norway at the top of the rankings.   

The worsening global economic climate shouldn't signal a set-back for equality between the sexes, Laura Tyson from Hass Business School, Berkley told CNBC.

“Our work shows a strong correlation between competitiveness and the gender gap scores. … countries that do not fully capitalize effectively on one-half of their human resources run the risk of undermining their competitive potential,” Tyson said in a research note.

Moving Up the Charts   

Switzerland jumped up the rankings to 14th from 40th in 2008 as the number of women in parliament and at ministerial-level positions increased rapidly. 

France also made a strong improvement, rising to 15th from 51st due to both economic participation and political empowerment.

China soared 17 places to 57th as women narrowed the gap in educational attainment, economic and political participation. 

The bottom-ranking countries showed a mixed picture of improving and worsening performance. Syria, Ethiopia and Saudi Arabia all fell farther in the rankings, but Tunisia, Jordan and United Arab Emirates showed improving equality.

Overall the study indicated a move toward greater equality between men and women as more than two-thirds of the countries posted gains.

The Global Gender Gap 2008 Rankings – Top 20

Country           2008  Score      2007  Change
Norway               1       82.39%    2       +1
Finland                2       81.95%    3       +1
Sweden              3       81.39%    1        -2
Iceland                4       79.99%     4         0
New Zealand        5       78.59%     5         0
Philippines            6       75.68%     6         0
Denmark              7       75.38%     8       +1
Ireland                 8        75.18%     9       +1
Netherlands          9        73.99%    12      +3
Latvia                 10       73.97%    13      +3
Germany             11       73.94%     7       -4
Sri Lanka             12       73.71%    15      +3
United Kingdom   13       73.66%     11      -2
Switzerland          14      73.60%     40     +26
France                 15      73.41%     51     +36
Lesotho               16      73.20%     26      +10
Spain                   17      72.81%     10      -7
Mozambique         18       72.66%    43       +25
Trinidad & Tobago  19       72.45%   46       +27
Moldova                20       72.44%    21      +1
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Economic Gender Gaps: In the U.S. and Internationally
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2008, 10:53:15 pm »


I have a really basic question about the equal pay dilemma facing female workers (essentially everywhere).  Why do women put up with this... or why have we put up with this for so long.  The gap in pay between men and women has existed pretty much throughout history.  Why aren't women in the streets demanding that this situation be fixed.  It's so fundamentally unfair... the idea that two people could be paid differently for the same work simply based on gender.  This is an issue that is not only upsetting on principle, it impacts people's lives in the most basic and fundamental ways.

I know lots of women have complained, written and protested about this in the past and even currently.  And, clearly the issue comes up during election cycles like the one we just witnessed.  But, why isn't there even more of a sense of urgency?  What are we waiting for in terms of really pushing to fix this really unaccepatable situation?

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Economic Gender Gaps: In the U.S. and Internationally
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2008, 04:04:31 pm »
In answer to the question of 'why do women put up with this?', the problem is that the premise or question is flawed. Pay inequity is one of many misrepresented aspect of the current set of gender issues.

The classic misrepresentation of data comes on this subject by using ALL males income averages vs ALL female income averages and then comparing the two. So, a male executive earning a fair salary of $100K would be averaged with a female staffer earning a fair salary of $45K shows a pay inequity for the female. The stats that show women earning 77 cents for every dollar men earn is based on this calculation.

When equal education, experience, responsibily, performance, etc, are accounted for, the pay equity is at near parity, and in some cases, women far out earn men, such as in K-12 education.

Interestingly, John McCain's senatorial staff showed a pay rate for his females indexing 104 to that of his male staff. Obama's women were underpaid by an index of 87.


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Economic Gender Gaps: In the U.S. and Internationally
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2008, 06:28:25 pm »
Right. I think businesses rarely if ever pay men more than women, or vise versa, for doing the exact same job.

The trouble is, what seem to be apples vs. oranges comparisons somehow almost end with the apples making more money than the oranges. That is, the jobs JudgHolden mentioned, construction, tow-truck driver, etc., as well as plumber, electrician, carpentry and other jobs that women are capable of doing but rarely do ... those jobs tend to pay more generously, it seems, than jobs in fields traditionally dominated by women: nursing, teaching, cashiering, secretarial work. I'm not going to take the time now to do an extensive wage comparison, so I may be wrong on a few of those details. But the point is, are we absolutely sure that the well-paying male-dominated jobs are worth more than the lesser-paying female jobs? Do the men's jobs necessarily involve more dirt, danger and odd hours, as JudgeHolden mentioned? Are they of more value to society? Do they require more training and/or education? Do they carry more responsibility? Are they in successful industries?

And most important, I guess, are the wages of each simply set at the level the market will bear?

That is a valid point, though, about women taking time out from the workforce to raise children. That really does lower their earning potential, not to mention their retirement savings, their seniority, their promotion opportunities, their Social Security ... On the one hand, I think this helps explain the earnings inequity. On the other hand, women who care for their children -- and raising the next generation is supposedly a job we as a society value -- sacrifice all of that economic opportunity. Their jobs are often every bit as hard as their well-compensated hubands (and yes, I'm aware there are some Mr. Moms, but again their number is disproportionately small).

I agree there are many sociological factors involved. Women do tend not to go into certain better paying fields, perhaps in part because even if they are not officially barred from those fields, there are still some cultural pressures to go into more traditional "women's fields." And JudgeHolden, even if those hazing stories are 20 years old, they still pack a punch. "North Country" came out only a few years ago.

I work in a field that, though originally male, has been "co-ed" for a long time. So I have worked in groups involving lots of women and men. And this

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I hate to say it, but when its one woman and a bunch of guys, she will do fine, but when its several women, it turns into high school. Women dont yet seem to know how to be impersonal, and compete professionally and objectively with each other, and boy howdy, they still see only the other women as there competition.

Is not something I have observed among women any more than among men. In fact, I don't really know what it means. You think women see other women as competition, but men don't look at their coworkers or other men that way? Hunh.


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Economic Gender Gaps: In the U.S. and Internationally
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 06:57:04 pm »


Is not something I have observed among women any more than among men. In fact, I don't really know what it means. You think women see other women as competition, but men don't look at their coworkers or other men that way? Hunh.



oh, come on Crayons!

take a hypothetical play sandbox out on a playground

put in 3 little boys, say age 8, give them toys appropriate to sandbox playtime, and the boys will mostly "cooperate" in competitive games.

take 3 little girls, same age, give them their toys, and two of the little girls will gang up "verbally on the other one.


what amuses me is many on the feminist left just refuse to acknowledge that boys and girls on average have cognitive, aptitude, and perceptual differences, and ironically on the other hand they insist because of "identity politics" that women should have their own caucuses, business support groups, safe zones, and that little boys who are naturally boistrous need to be dumbed down by Ritalin because they intimidate the little girls.

hence the feminization of the primary school curriculum and a generation of female teachers who haven't a clue as to how to discipline little boys. this wouldn't be too big an issue, but since it has lead to the decline in grad rates among little boys as they are bored stiff with the feminized curriculum, it is in effect a war on boys perpetrated by the educational establishment and the teachers unions.

on a related note:

that poor old Clintonoid Larry Summers, who just had the temerity to once speak the truth about the differences between men and women.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Women want Larry Summers off Don’t back him for Cabinet

By Christine McConville  |   Sunday, November 16, 2008  |  http://www.bostonherald.com


A controversial comment at a Cambridge conference may cost former Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers a second stint in the Cabinet.

“I’m concerned about his judgment and ability to listen,” said Nancy Hopkins, a biology professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and one of the many women who say they are concerned about Summers’ rumored appointment as President-elect Barack Obama’s Treasury secretary.

In 2005, Hopkins walked out of an academic conference after Summers, the keynote speaker and the president of Harvard University at the time, said that innate differences between men and women might be one reason fewer women succeed in science and math careers.

Summers and his defenders have said that he was only putting forth hypotheses based on the scholarly work assembled for the conference, and the conference organizer has said that Summers was asked to be provocative.

Still, the ensuing outcry played a role in his eventual ouster as Harvard’s president and paved the way for the university’s first female president, Drew Faust.

And now women’s groups have expressed so much outrage over Summers’ possible appointment that, according to top Democratic sources, his name may even have been stricken from the short list.

Summers currently works as a Harvard professor, and was not available for comment.

But one of his former students, Sheryl Sandberg, has been defending him.

“Larry has been a true advocate for women throughout his career,” wrote Sandberg, now the chief operating officer at Facebook, on the blog Huffington Post.

“In 1992, as Chief Economist of the World Bank, Larry argued in front of the world’s Finance Ministers that the highest return investment they could make in their economies was to educate their girls,” she wrote.

Rumors of Summers as the next Treasury Secretary come after he spent a year as one of Obama’s top economic advisers.

Sandberg, who worked for Summerts at the World Bank and then at the U.S. Treasury Department during the Clinton administration, has said he would be an excellent choice.

“Many people note that our nation has few economists with his intelligence,” she has written. “They should also know that we have few leaders, if any, in the financial world who have done more for women.”

Other women disagree.

Just after Obama won, National Organization for Women president Kim Gandy told the Huffington Post she had “mixed feelings” about Summers, saying he doesn’t “get” the economic implications of gender-based wage disparities.

The New Agenda, a nonpartisan women’s rights group, issued a press release, saying Summers’ “record of derogatory comments aimed at women ensures that his selection would be divisive and thus distract from efforts to fix the economy.”

And the Rosalind Franklin Society, which promotes women in the life-sciences field, has urged Obama to appoint “someone whose qualifications have not been compromised.”

Hopkins said that locally, anti-Summers sentiment began during his tenure as Harvard’s president.

Female faculty members tried to talk to him about the dwindling numbers of women faculty, “but he doesn’t listen,” she said.

And now with the world economy in upheaval and financial experts uncertain of what move to make next, she said, “to have someone who can’t listen, that’s a real concern,” she said.

Other possible contenders for the Treasury post include New York Federal Reserve Chairman Timothy Geithner and New Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine, a former Goldman Sachs executive who has served in the Senate

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/general/view/2008_11_16_Women_want_Larry_Summers_off:_Don_t_back_him_for_Cabinet/

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Economic Gender Gaps: In the U.S. and Internationally
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 07:20:15 pm »

The trouble is, what seem to be apples vs. oranges comparisons somehow almost end with the apples making more money than the oranges. That is, the jobs JudgHolden mentioned, construction, tow-truck driver, etc., as well as plumber, electrician, carpentry and other jobs that women are capable of doing but rarely do ... those jobs tend to pay more generously, it seems, than jobs in fields traditionally dominated by women: nursing, teaching, cashiering, secretarial work. I'm not going to take the time now to do an extensive wage comparison, so I may be wrong on a few of those details. But the point is, are we absolutely sure that the well-paying male-dominated jobs are worth more than the lesser-paying female jobs? Do the men's jobs necessarily involve more dirt, danger and odd hours, as JudgeHolden mentioned? Are they of more value to society? Do they require more training and/or education? Do they carry more responsibility? Are they in successful industries?

And most important, I guess, are the wages of each simply set at the level the market will bear?


Of course apples may make more than oranges or vice versa depending on value and what the market will bear. Crayons, you seem to be looking at the U.S. labor environment as if it was actually the soviet union. A few comments on the above:

1) nurses make a ton of money. Once again, as Holden pointed out and as I did as well, you are reaching  back over 20 years to make an invalid point. I don't know what kind of stores you shop in or how you pay for your goods, but are you seriously suggesting that a man with the know how to build a house is equal in value to a woman moving packages over a scanner and having a computer tell her how much change?

2) "...I'm not going to take the time to do a wage comparison...". Well, nice. The thread makes an errroneous thesis and then you would say the actual data is too cumbersome to put forth. Fact is, if business could pay anyone 3/4 of anyone else to do the same work, they'd do it. The employment laws prohibit wage discrimination; that battle was won decades ago. The whole attempt to position women as victims of a type of slave-pay institution or conspriacty is utterly untrue. But, it is frequently used to mislead and provide fodder to unknowing people to opt onto a false bandwagon.

3) your last series of questions are all easily answered both in terms of most peoples' own experiences in the economy as well as the data supplied by various governemental agencies. Women who chose plumbing make a plumbers wage. Men who chose teaching make a teachers wage. The most notable "career" that seems underpaid and is dominated by women is K-12 teaching. But, government schools are, like other government jobs, not in the "real world" and are beholden to tax payers ability/willingness to pay. But, once again, why do women flock to teaching? Easy. No competition. No evaluation. No stress. Etc.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Economic Gender Gaps: In the U.S. and Internationally
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 07:25:13 pm »
even if those hazing stories are 20 years old, they still pack a punch. "North Country" came out only a few years ago.


I do not agree at all. 20 years is a whole generation or two. Attempts to continue a litanny of discrimination claims based on old history is both wrong and disingeneous. Time does march on. Anyone looking for a difficult work environment by assuming a 1970s style frame of reference will be in place is simply not seeing the world as it is.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Economic Gender Gaps: In the U.S. and Internationally
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 07:30:51 pm »
oh, come on Crayons!

take a hypothetical play sandbox out on a playground

put in 3 little boys, say age 8, give them toys appropriate to sandbox playtime, and the boys will mostly "cooperate" in competitive games.

take 3 little girls, same age, give them their toys, and two of the little girls will gang up "verbally on the other one.



Excellent point Brokeplex. That is precisely why girls team sports have had a difficult time emerging as a real factor; girls do not seem to excel at teammanship. That is also why in business, particularly in the early years of women in management (1970s and to current), women had more difficulty managing...they largely had no team sports experience and had not learned how to be anything other than a single entity fighting her own agendas.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Economic Gender Gaps: In the U.S. and Internationally
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2008, 07:35:18 pm »


what amuses me is many on the feminist left just refuse to acknowledge that boys and girls on average have cognitive, aptitude, and perceptual differences, and ironically on the other hand they insist because of "identity politics" that women should have their own caucuses, business support groups, safe zones, and that little boys who are naturally boistrous need to be dumbed down by Ritalin because they intimidate the little girls.

hence the feminization of the primary school curriculum and a generation of female teachers who haven't a clue as to how to discipline little boys.

A huge assault on boys took place and continues in terms of discipline in school. Ritalin is a dangerous drug that schools and schools in league with docs have overdosed young and adolescent boys.

is it not interesting that the so-called diseases of ADD and ADHD were not "invented" until Ritalin was?

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Economic Gender Gaps: In the U.S. and Internationally
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2008, 09:51:16 pm »
oh, come on Crayons!

take a hypothetical play sandbox out on a playground

put in 3 little boys, say age 8, give them toys appropriate to sandbox playtime, and the boys will mostly "cooperate" in competitive games.

take 3 little girls, same age, give them their toys, and two of the little girls will gang up "verbally on the other one.

Oh! Were we talking about eight-year-olds? I misunderstood. In that case, as the mom of two boys who do not always "cooperate" in competitive games, I can tell you what happens in the real world. And yes, they gang up verbally at times.

But if we're talking about grownups, then I would say, again from my own first-hand observations in newsrooms, that you are treating stereotypes as absolute givens. Boys not competitive?! Sorry, 'plex, but that's just crazy talk. Competitiveness is considered a masculine trait!

Do you, by the way, work with roughly equal numbers of women and men?

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what amuses me is many on the feminist left just refuse to acknowledge that boys and girls on average have cognitive, aptitude, and perceptual differences,

Don't count me in this group. I acknowledge.

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little boys who are naturally boistrous need to be dumbed down by Ritalin because they intimidate the little girls.

As the mother of two notably boisterous boys who are not on Ritalin, I can tell you that this idea is not the exclusive property of the left.

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a generation of female teachers who haven't a clue as to how to discipline little boys.

Gotta disagree with you again, and once again draw upon my own experiences. Yes, I know they're anecdotal, but I don't see you providing any statistics or evidence whatsoever -- you're just going by assumptions and stereotypes. Anyway, my older son has some bona fide disciplinary issues. But he gets along better with some teachers than others -- the ones who are flexible but firm, rather than rigid and/or easily intimidated. All but one of his most effective teachers have been tough but unflappable women. Of course more of his teachers have been women.

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decline in grad rates among little boys as they are bored stiff with the feminized curriculum,

Now that's just rude. I'm going to politely ignore that you said it.



Of course apples may make more than oranges or vice versa depending on value and what the market will bear. Crayons, you seem to be looking at the U.S. labor environment as if it was actually the soviet union.

Just wishful thinking, I guess!  ;D ;) But you are right. Market forces should determine wages. The question is, do they in practice?

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1) nurses make a ton of money. Once again, as Holden pointed out and as I did as well, you are reaching  back over 20 years to make an invalid point. I don't know what kind of stores you shop in or how you pay for your goods, but are you seriously suggesting that a man with the know how to build a house is equal in value to a woman moving packages over a scanner and having a computer tell her how much change?

No. I'm saying a woman cashier might be equal in value to a guy in the stockroom. A male plumber might be equal in value of a woman LPN. But the plumber averages about $50,000, and the LPN $40,000. (I did look these up.)

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2) "...I'm not going to take the time to do a wage comparison...". Well, nice. The thread makes an errroneous thesis and then you would say the actual data is too cumbersome to put forth.

Unlike all the research you've done to support your stereotypes?

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Fact is, if business could pay anyone 3/4 of anyone else to do the same work, they'd do it.


So the CEOs who make $20 million a year -- they couldn't find anyone to fill those jobs for $15 million? They'd have to hire illegal immigrants, I guess ...  ;D

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The employment laws prohibit wage discrimination; that battle was won decades ago. The whole attempt to position women as victims of a type of slave-pay institution or conspriacty is utterly untrue. But, it is frequently used to mislead and provide fodder to unknowing people to opt onto a false bandwagon.

If all of the disparity can be accounted by women's shorter time in the workforce, or women's historically lower education levels, then I would say yes. But I'm not sure that's true.

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But, once again, why do women flock to teaching? Easy. No competition. No evaluation. No stress. Etc.

Like Brokeplex's final remark, this just seems gratuitously rude. As well as untrue. No stress for teachers in today's schools? Are you joking?

20 years is a whole generation or two.

Twenty years is considered one generation, as 10-year-olds do not normally reproduce.

girls do not seem to excel at teammanship.

Another pointlessly rude remark based on ... what? Again, assumptions and stereotypes.