Carving up the Two Old Birds

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

I don’t know whether this has been discussed, but here’s my take on the symbolism of knives in the film.  If others have discussed this, maybe my post will add something new.

I believe there are no throw-away lines or scenes in BBM.  Everything is there for a reason.

I also believe that in every line there is text, subtext, and metaphor/symbolism.  So here’s my take on knives.

There are several significant occurrences of knives in the film.  The first is when Ennis is lying in the tent carving a little horsey.  We already know that horses symbolism Ennis.  So, he is carving himself.  This has been a major plotline throughout the entire film – Ennis always trying to create a happier, whole Ennis.  Throughout the film, he fails miserably, his carving is never completed.  But at the end, starting with his breakdown at the final lake scene, and continuing with the revelations he gets from Cassie, Lureen, Mr. and Mrs. Twist, and the shirts, he starts to make progress.  In Jack’s bedroom, the first thing Ennis does is he picks up a little horse and cowboy statuette.  We know this couldn’t be the one that Ennis was working on because it’s much smaller, more frail, and it has a rider on it.  This toy is evocative of Jack and his cowboy dreams, but it also is a visual clue to us that Ennis is finally on his road to finishing the carving he started back on Brokeback Mountain.  Also, that Jack’s carving (forming of himself) was more complete much earlier on than was Ennis’.

The next significant knife is the one Jack uses to peel his potato while Ennis peels his clothes off.  Jack is peeling himself.  Yes, Jack is a potato.  Jack is beginning to peel away his outer layer of his homosexuality.  Up until now, he has been interested in Ennis, stealing glances here and there, but he has not really started to “make his move,” if you will.  He has worked his can opener on Ennis, and will continue to do so, but it’s after this scene that Jack starts his “not-just-friendship” actions with Ennis.  This is further reinforced by the Basque.  The Basque is a very important character in the early part of the film.  He’s there to clue Ennis in on timing.  The only time restriction that Ennis has on the mountain is to meet the Basque every Friday at noon.  The one time we see Ennis meet the Basque for deliveries, the Basque tells Ennis that it’s too early in the summer for soup (to be sick of beans) – he’s telling Ennis that it’s too early in Ennis’ development to start a relationship with Jack – Ennis tried to order soup – a sexual relationship with Jack -- but was stuck with beans – a friendship relationship with Jack – but it’s too early for him.  Likewise, when Ennis asks why he didn’t get the spuds in this delivery, he’s told that there are none.  There isn’t a potato yet for Jack to peel – metaphorically, Jack is not yet ready either.  It’s immediately after the Basque scene that Ennis is confronted by the bear and is thrown from his horse, who was spooked.  Ennis was confronted by his fears and was spooked and he, himself, was thrown.  Immediately after Jack peels his potato (he’s getting ready to go further with Ennis) is the ‘yee-haw’ scene where Jack sees his opening – the sad pall brought down on their conversation by Ennis telling Jack that “Hell, that’s the most I’ve spoke in a year.”  And Jack takes his opening, and does his little mating dance for Ennis – Yee-Haw!

They use their knives to carve or form themselves.

The next significant appearance of a knife is when Alma suggests that she and Ennis and Jack go to the Knife and Fork together.  Ennis shoots down this idea.  Metaphorically, Ennis will not let another person carve up their relationship which he knows he is just about to reignite.  Ennis says that Jack isn’t the restaurant type – he’s not the type to let someone else take control and carve – and that they’ll just go out and get drunk – whenever Jack drinks alcohol, he takes control of something, whenever Ennis drinks alcohol he loses control of something – often, himself.

The next significant occurrence is at the Thanksgiving dinners.  Here, two old birds get carved.  The two old birds were, according to Ennis, Earl and Rich.  But Ennis and Jack are also two old birds.  When Ennis tells Jack the Earl death story, Ennis himself is comparing Earl’s and Rich’s situation to Jack’s and Ennis’, making Jack and Ennis a pair of old birds.  At Thanksgiving at the Twist home, LD Newsome starts to carve up the old bird, Jack.  But Jack will not have it.  Jack takes control of his home and his family and metaphorically says “If anyone is going to carve this bird (me), then it’s going to be me.”  And Jack picks up the knife and carves.

At Alma’s Thanksgiving Spectacular, the old bird is being carved by Monroe.  Here, Ennis is not in control of his life or family.  Someone new has come into the picture, replacing Ennis in his roles of husband and father.  He cannot wrest this away from Monroe, and Monroe continues carving their old bird, Ennis.  (Aside -- Now Monroe uses an electric knife and Jack uses a fancy-dancy carving set.  There may be some symbolism in here, but I’ll bet the only real significance of the electric knife is that it was Ennis’ wedding gift to Alma and Monroe.           )

The final significant appearance of knives is in Ennis’ trailer in the final scene.  He has not one, but two sets of knives in knife blocks.  Because of the revelations he has had concerning the true meaning of his relationship with Jack (the final lake scene breakdown, Cassie, Lureen, the Twists, and the shirts), Ennis is now ready to really take control of carving his life into something that will make him happier and whole.  There are so many knives there either because he’s going to get really good at it, or because it’ll still take him a long time.  He was good back on Brokeback at tying things in knots, and he continued this throughout the film by tying himself in knots with his disassociations between what he felt for Jack and what he was taught to be the truth of such a thing.  Now he has all the knives he needs to cut those knots free.

Now, what have we learned boys and girls?

That knives symbolize the men carving or forming themselves, that each man is responsible for doing his own carving or forming, and most importantly, that Jack is a potato.

[serious crayons]

Wow, Ruthlessly, very impressive! Everything here makes a lot of sense. And how exciting to add yet another common household object to the (still growing!) list of amazing symbols. And connecting the old birds/Thanksgiving turkeys is a great idea, too.

It so happens that the last time or two I watched the movie I noticed one set of knives and a knife block in Ennis' trailer (what, there are two?!). I got one of those things (actually, come to think of it, two of them!) for wedding gifts -- up until then I just used regular old knives lying in a drawer. It's a pretty unusual possession for a guy who don't have nothin and don't need nothin; it would be odd if he wound up with those when he and Alma divvied up the joint property. And of course when some prop stands out, it suggests some larger meaning ...

Also, you also make lots of little interesting sideline observations on the way, such as:

Jack’s carving (forming of himself) was more complete much earlier on than was Ennis’.

and

whenever Jack drinks alcohol, he takes control of something, whenever Ennis drinks alcohol he loses control of something – often, himself.

Other preliminary off-the-cuff reactions:

In that early sequence, we see them sawing a tree together. Does that count, or are saws too far off to count as an example of the symbol?

Your post made me notice that Ennis is carving a horse with no rider and Jack later imitates a rider with no horse (or bull).

There's an unseen but implied knife used in cutting up the elk, symbol of their relationship in balance and harmony.

You know I have a different theory about the significance of the electric knife  but I don't think that interferes with the main point of your theory.

So does that make Alma a fork?

[nakymaton]

Nice post. But it's late and I'm punchy.

and most importantly, that Jack is a potato.

So does that mean that, if one is a Gyllenhaalic, that Jack is a hot potato?

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Everything here makes a lot of sense. And how exciting to add yet another common household object to the (still growing!) list of amazing symbols. And connecting the old birds/Thanksgiving turkeys is a great idea, too.

Thanks.  The connection between the two old birds and the turkeys hit me one day.  Since the first time I saw the film, I connected Earl and Rich as two old birds with Jack and Ennis (one dies, one lives, presumably; and of course, the images of Earl's and Jack's deaths).  But someone somewhere mentioned the bird that flies over the white truck so I got to thinking about all the occurrences of birds in the film.  The two turkeys suddenly stood out like a sore thumb.

It's a pretty unusual possession for a guy who don't have nothin and don't need nothin; it would be odd if he wound up with those when he and Alma divvied up the joint property. And of course when some prop stands out, it suggests some larger meaning ...

Exactly my thoughts.  And the restaurant name "Knife and Fork."  There are no other forks in the film that have any "stand out" quality, but the knives do.

Also, you also make lots of little interesting sideline observations on the way, such as:

whenever Jack drinks alcohol, he takes control of something, whenever Ennis drinks alcohol he loses control of something – often, himself.

This didn’t strike me for a long time.  It seemed as if they were always drinking, but then I noticed, they're not always drinking.  So I watched for what happens when alcohol is near them... either them drinking or not drinking.  It seems consistent that when Jack drinks, he takes control.  When Ennis drinks, Ennis loses control.  When one drinks and the other does not, the rule applies for the one who drank, while the opposite of the rule occurs for the other guy -- because he did not drink.  For example, in the reunion river scene, Jack is drinking a beer.  He's going to take control.  He offers up the idea of a cow-and-calf operation.  But Ennis is NOT drinking in this scene.  And so he's not going to lose control; rather, he's going to stay in control... and he does.  He says "no way" to two guys living together.  But when there is alcohol around them and no one is drinking it, then the rules still apply because those are essentially their characters -- Jack taking control, Ennis losing control.  Also, it seems that the amount they each drink has a direct relationship to how much Jack takes control or Ennis loses control.  For example, Ennis drank A LOT before FNIT and before the reunion kiss.  He lost control big time in each scene.  Jack drank just a tiny little shot glass of alcohol just as Lureen approaches him in the bar.  He's going to take control, but in a small way.  He was lonely, he was just scraping by, he was shot down by Jimbo, he was losing at his riding.  But today he was the winner (he even had his photo taken with Lureen, the other winner) and he wasn't shot down (Lureen picked him up) and he saw her family money.  So he took control and made the decision to hook up with Lureen.  It was a life-changing decision, but little did he know that he wouldn't get any of that control he was hoping for in his life with Lureen until more than 10 years later when a glass of wine sits in front of him at his Thanksgiving dinner table.  Then, of course, one of my favorites, is at the final lake scene... they're passing the whiskey back and forth AND they're kicking it up a notch with the marijuana.  The next day Jack takes control of the relationship like never before.  Ennis loses control like never before.  I could go on and on...

In that early sequence, we see them sawing a tree together. Does that count, or are saws too far off to count as an example of the symbol?

They are starting to form a life together here.  Notice how at this moment the music changes to the full violin.  Ennis is sawing (forming his life) and sawing is a slower and more careful process than chopping.  Jack chops with an axe, more direct and hard hitting.  Now, what's interesting here is that they chop wood, just as Ennis carved wood.  Ennis was carving his life.  This scene is more about Ennis' life being formed.  Ennis is carefully forming his life, Jack is more hard hitting.  Next when Aguirre rides up, Jack is chopping a piece of wood.  It's post-SNIT and he chops the piece of wood right in two, one blow.  He's ready to separate Ennis' two selves... the one that now loves Jack and the one that is fearful of that love.  Similarly when Ennis comes back to camp as Jack is taking down the tent, Ennis first goes and sits on the chopping block.  He picks up a piece of wood, contemplates it for a second, and then throws it away in disgust.  He's sitting on the chopping block literally, like he did figuratively in the Aguirre scene, but as Jack chopped him two, Ennis picks up that one half -- the half that loves Jack -- and throws it away in disgust  -- not symbolizing throwing his love for Jack away, but symbolizing the formation of that piece of wood that Jack formed from Ennis was just futile.  Notice too that at the post-divorce scene, there is an axe in a pile of wood next to Ennis' house.  It's really obvious as Jack backs away in his truck.  Jack missed it when he drove up.  He shouldn't have.  This is also conspicuous because there is NOT an axe outside of his trailer, but there is a shovel.  The one other thing I didn’t include in my OP is the one significant absence of a knife.  In the Twist family home, Mrs. Twist offers cherry cake.  How would she serve it to Ennis?  She'd have to use a knife to cut the cake.  But Ennis "can't eat no cake just now."  Text: no cake just now.  Subtext: he's sick with grief, doesn't feel like eating.  Metaphor: she offers to carve or form him a little more, but he's not ready for that last little bit of forming.  But, after Old Man Twist tells about the other rancher, and Mrs. Twist puts her hand of compassion on his shoulder to nudge him upstairs, the formation will become complete... as evoked by the fully formed cowboy statuette.

Your post made me notice that Ennis is carving a horse with no rider and Jack later imitates a rider with no horse (or bull).

Yes!  Ennis is forming himself without Jack at this early stage, and at the 'yee-haw' scene, Jack takes his rightful place.

There's an unseen but implied knife used in cutting up the elk, symbol of their relationship in balance and harmony.

Yes.  I agree.  But the elk is also a symbol of a substitute life.  Beans -- the friendship life, soup -- the coupled life, elk -- the poor substitute (Ennis' intransigence over the years).  Jack goes along with the poor substitute of a coupled life, that Jack really wants, and the poor substitute life dwindles away over the years.  Similarly, the elk is eaten by them, bit by bit, until it, too, disappears.  (Interestingly, it disappears right before they move to the second camp, right before they start the life that Jack thinks is going to be forever.)

You know I have a different theory about the significance of the electric knife  but I don't think that interferes with the main point of your theory.

I did give it consideration after you mentioned it, but that was also after I originally posted this.   

So does that make Alma a fork?

You know, if it had been Monroe rather than LD Newsome who stuck a fork in that old bird I'd start thinkin' along this line.  One does often stick a fork in a potato to see if it's done...

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

So does that mean that, if one is a Gyllenhaalic, that Jack is a hot potato?

Whatever works... 

[serious crayons]

Well, yay! That all makes sense. I like your analysis of wood-chopping. Yes, I had noticed the music changes when they're cutting up the tree. And I had wondered about the significance of Ennis grabbing the log and then tossing it. I figured that, coming as it does right after Ennis kicking the water in the stream -- their relationship -- it must mean something.

And this is a good way to explain the connection between the little horses, for which I hadn't previously found a really satisfactory answer.

I did give it consideration after you mentioned it, but that was also after I originally posted this.    Smiley

I'm kidding, kind of. It's not essential to mention, because I don't think my interpretation of the electric knife interferes with your theory (to those who haven't seen me say this before, it reminds me of a vibrator -- albeit a dangerous one -- suggesting that Monroe is a substitute for Ennis). I see it as a subtle joke, but certainly jokes can coexist with more serious metaphoric schemes. (Or enhance them, as with the laundry-entrance sign.)

Anyway, thanks for posting all of this. I like your interpretations a lot.

[Meryl]

The next significant occurrence is at the Thanksgiving dinners.  Here, two old birds get carved.  The two old birds were, according to Ennis, Earl and Rich.  But Ennis and Jack are also two old birds.  When Ennis tells Jack the Earl death story, Ennis himself is comparing Earl’s and Rich’s situation to Jack’s and Ennis’, making Jack and Ennis a pair of old birds.  At Thanksgiving at the Twist home, LD Newsome starts to carve up the old bird, Jack.  But Jack will not have it.  Jack takes control of his home and his family and metaphorically says “If anyone is going to carve this bird (me), then it’s going to be me.”  And Jack picks up the knife and carves.

At Alma’s Thanksgiving Spectacular, the old bird is being carved by Monroe.  Here, Ennis is not in control of his life or family.  Someone new has come into the picture, replacing Ennis in his roles of husband and father.  He cannot wrest this away from Monroe, and Monroe continues carving their old bird, Ennis. 

The final significant appearance of knives is in Ennis’ trailer in the final scene.  He has not one, but two sets of knives in knife blocks.  Because of the revelations he has had concerning the true meaning of his relationship with Jack (the final lake scene breakdown, Cassie, Lureen, the Twists, and the shirts), Ennis is now ready to really take control of carving his life into something that will make him happier and whole.  There are so many knives there either because he’s going to get really good at it, or because it’ll still take him a long time.  He was good back on Brokeback at tying things in knots, and he continued this throughout the film by tying himself in knots with his disassociations between what he felt for Jack and what he was taught to be the truth of such a thing.  Now he has all the knives he needs to cut those knots free.

Hi ruthless, I have enjoyed your posts a lot and find them impressively well thought out and persuasive, and this one is no exception.  Your thoughts about the knife symbolism are much appreciated, as this is a topic I've often wondered about.  I also like to think that everything in the film is there for a reason and is rife with metaphor and subtext.

I like your take on the early knife instances as being symbolic of the boys forming their characters and their lives.  This makes sense, and the riderless horse and Jack's imaginary bull make a nice pairing.

Though there's no reason to refute your interpretation of the two old birds, I'll throw in another view.  After Ennis rejects Jack in the post-divorce scene, things take a downward turn.  If Jack and Ennis are the turkeys, it's clear that at this point they start to diminish, no matter who is doing the carving.  The lifeblood has gone out of them, they are done to a turn, and their very essence is consumed by the families they provide for rather than going to fuel their relationship.  In the end, all that is left are the bones of that relationship.

The knives in the trailer could represent potential, following through with your earlier analogy, but I take a more pessimistic view of Ennis's future.  To me, those knives seem to be left over from a former tenant, and as such might represent the leftover baggage Ennis carries from his life--old wounds, old hopes.  The knives speak of stabs of grief, of pain, of guilt, of words unspoken.  Yes, they can slice through knots, but will Ennis ever pick them up to do so?  IMO they are a mute testament to pain. 

[serious crayons]

The knives in the trailer could represent potential, following through with your earlier analogy, but I take a more pessimistic view of Ennis's future.  To me, those knives seem to be left over from a former tenant, and as such might represent the leftover baggage Ennis carries from his life--old wounds, old hopes.  The knives speak of stabs of grief, of pain, of guilt, of words unspoken.  Yes, they can slice through knots, but will Ennis ever pick them up to do so?  IMO they are a mute testament to pain. 

Wow, Meryl, I like this, too. Besides, I'm not averse to the idea that one object can have two symbolic meanings. That's just two for the price of one, in my book.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Anyway, thanks for posting all of this. I like your interpretations a lot.

And I like (a lot) that you like my interpretations a lot. 


But they're just mine and I hope to hear some others from others... and I like what you added here.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

I'll throw in another view.  After Ennis rejects Jack in the post-divorce scene, things take a downward turn.  If Jack and Ennis are the turkeys, it's clear that at this point they start to diminish, no matter who is doing the carving.  The lifeblood has gone out of them, they are done to a turn, and their very essence is consumed by the families they provide for rather than going to fuel their relationship.  In the end, all that is left are the bones of that relationship.

LOVE IT!  Thanks for this addition!

The knives in the trailer could represent potential, following through with your earlier analogy, but I take a more pessimistic view of Ennis's future.  ... The knives speak of stabs of grief, of pain, of guilt, of words unspoken.  Yes, they can slice through knots, but will Ennis ever pick them up to do so? 

I can certainly go along with this.  I am also pessimistic -- ruthlessly unsentimental -- about Ennis' future.  I see him as working hard every day, maybe going to a bar, alone, for several beers, or to the bus depot, alone, for pie... but then sitting in his trailer all evening long, again, alone, drinking beers, smoking cigarettes and watching TV or gazing at the shirts hanging in the opened closet.  To be brutally frank, I see Ennis starting to talk to the shirts after a while.  I think those shirts are going to become his best and only friend.  Still, we did see a teeny weenie bit of movement on his part at the end, didn’t we?

[Meryl]

LOVE IT!  Thanks for this addition!

Thanks, glad it makes sense to you.  And thanks for making it more clear to me that the birds really do symbolize Jack and Ennis. 

I can certainly go along with this.  I am also pessimistic -- ruthlessly unsentimental -- about Ennis' future.  I see him as working hard every day, maybe going to a bar, alone, for several beers, or to the bus depot, alone, for pie... but then sitting in his trailer all evening long, again, alone, drinking beers, smoking cigarettes and watching TV or gazing at the shirts hanging in the opened closet.  To be brutally frank, I see Ennis starting to talk to the shirts after a while.  I think those shirts are going to become his best and only friend.  Still, we did see a teeny weenie bit of movement on his part at the end, didn’t we?

That is a grim picture, but one I can envision, too.  Annie Proulx gave us even less hope than the screenplay, with her "wind strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck" line, as if Ennis is literally being buried.  I'm glad Ang Lee at least let in a crack of light under  the door. 

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

I'm glad Ang Lee at least let in a crack of light under  the door. 

Me too.  Lee has said that he added the final scene to give some wisp of hope or promise to the story.  Still, going to the wedding just gets him out of his trailer for a couple of hours on a very important day.  This doesn't mean he'll ever do another Thanksgiving with Alma and Monroe, though.  The amazing thing about this is that he will have to go to a public event where Alma Sr. is present.  Maybe she'll take this opportunity to finally tell Ennis that she witnessed the passionate reunion kiss.  Wouldn' that just make Jr.'s day all the more special?

Side question -- when Ennis goes to Jr.'s wedding, what do you think he wears?  His wedding suit -- I'll bet he still has it -- or his slicked-back hair and bolo tie from the Thanksgiving scene?  I go with the slicked-back hair and bolo tie.  Any thoughts?  Does he drink a little bit too much and get in a fight with one of the groomsmen? 

[Meryl]

Me too.  Lee has said that he added the final scene to give some wisp of hope or promise to the story.  Still, going to the wedding just gets him out of his trailer for a couple of hours on a very important day.  This doesn't mean he'll ever do another Thanksgiving with Alma and Monroe, though.  The amazing thing about this is that he will have to go to a public event where Alma Sr. is present.  Maybe she'll take this opportunity to finally tell Ennis that she witnessed the passionate reunion kiss.  Wouldn' that just make Jr.'s day all the more special?

Side question -- when Ennis goes to Jr.'s wedding, what do you think he wears?  His wedding suit -- I'll bet he still has it -- or his slicked-back hair and bolo tie from the Thanksgiving scene?  I go with the slicked-back hair and bolo tie.  Any thoughts?  Does he drink a little bit too much and get in a fight with one of the groomsmen?

I think Jr. is savvy enough to take Ennis in hand when it comes to looking good at the wedding.  She'll probably arrrange for him to meet up with Kurt for a guys' day out shopping trip and haircut.  It's nice to imagine, anyway.   

As for Alma, I wonder if she'd even know about Jack's death.  It'd make an interesting fanfic:  Alma making some remark to Ennis, only to find out his fishing buddy had passed away.   She'd look like a hypocrite if she expressed sympathy, but she'd have to have some feelings about it.  Maybe it would lead to a heart-to-heart talk with Ennis at last.  It's nice to imagine, anyway. 

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

She'll probably arrrange for him to meet up with Kurt for a guys' day out shopping trip and haircut.

Or maybe a new episode of "Queer Eye for the Hopelessly-Believing-Himself-to-be-Straight Guy?"

As for Alma, I wonder if she'd even know about Jack's death.  It'd make an interesting fanfic:  Alma making some remark to Ennis, only to find out his fishing buddy had passed away.   She'd look like a hypocrite if she expressed sympathy, but she'd have to have some feelings about it.  Maybe it would lead to a heart-to-heart talk with Ennis at last.  It's nice to imagine, anyway. 

Oh, gosh.  Now you turned my joking mood into a sad one.

So sad, because while Ennis did introduce Jack to Alma and the girls (he sort of had to since they were all there), he could never, ever talk to anyone about Jack except to say "We was good friends."  Oh, poor, sad, grammatically incorrect Ennis...  (At least he was a good speller.)

As far as Alma, if she ever found out, I could see her biting her tongue to keep herself from saying something patently offensive like "Well good!"  But, I can't see a heart-to-heart.  Well, maybe in 2006, when they're both in their sixties... and Alma has watched a lot of Oprah... but then, she'd still carry the bitterness that the lie he lived (for which she may express some sympathy) was a lie to her and to their relationship and to their children... 

Thanks again!   


(Kidding -- it's nice talkin' to ya.       )

[serious crayons]

So sad, because while Ennis did introduce Jack to Alma and the girls (he sort of had to since they were all there), he could never, ever talk to anyone about Jack except to say "We was good friends."

I know, that is really sad. The only sympathy he got was from Mrs. Twist. So maybe he will go see her, on a day when Mr. Twist goes into Casper for supplies.

Or maybe someday, after Alma Jr. watches a lot of Oprah ...

As far as Alma, if she ever found out, I could see her biting her tongue to keep herself from saying something patently offensive like "Well good!"  But, I can't see a heart-to-heart.  Well, maybe in 2006, when they're both in their sixties... and Alma has watched a lot of Oprah... but then, she'd still carry the bitterness that the lie he lived (for which she may express some sympathy) was a lie to her and to their relationship and to their children..

 

No, that kind of transformation would be beyond the powers of even Oprah. A wife would have to be pretty saintly to console her ex on the death of the person (man or woman) with whom he was having an affair throughout their marriage, let alone someone she considers "nasty." And Alma is far from saintly.

[mlewisusc]

WOW!  Haven't been on the boards for a long time, and look what analysis I've been missing!  I'll have to take time to digest this, but I wanted to point out the fact that the name of the restaurant (Knife & Fork) was from the original Proulx story (not that this fact stops the filmmakers from working it into the visual symbolism). 

[Front-Ranger]

I'm terribly behind on this thread but wanted to add that knives are hugely symbolic in Asian culture. In business, we are warned to never give a present of knives to businessmen of Asian background. I'm sure your take on the knives is true, and was meant to be in the film. It's also meaningful, I think, that the boys never wear knives on their persons when they are on the mountain. What's missing is just as meaningful as what's shown. We never see an eagle or other bird in the sky on the mountain, but we do hear the cry of an eagle at least twice: at the beginning when Ennis approaches the trailer, and when the boys change camp.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

And Alma is far from saintly.

You think so?  Gee, when she confronted Ennis in the kitchen after her Thanksgiving Spectacular, I thought she was just trying to help Ennis come to terms with who he really is, trying to guide him into a new spiritual awakening.  She was hoping that he'd come out of the closet so that they could hug, and she could say "s'alright," and then they'd go and tell Monroe and the girls the good news, and then they'd go to town, you know, out on the pavement, and they'd go to that bar and tell everyone and they'd all toast Ennis and his new-found self-awarness, and then they'd call Jack and tell him to come on up and drop by and... well, I can almost see Alma knittin' a brand new wedding suit for Ennis...

OK, I went too far, didn't I?

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

What's missing is just as meaningful as what's shown.

Absolutely!

[Front-Ranger]

"Don't mess with Alma!!!" One of the great unwritten rules. I got in major trouble for calling her a "harridan" at Thanksgiving. People are sensitive about Lureen and LaShawn too, and you'll have to tread lightly on Cassie.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

"Don't mess with Alma!!!" One of the great unwritten rules. I got in major trouble for calling her a "harridan" at Thanksgiving. People are sensitive about Lureen and LaShawn too, and you'll have to tread lightly on Cassie.

Cassie is one of my favorite characters!  See delivers the single most pivotal line in the entire film.  LaShawn is just a hoot and a half.  Lureen, I feel sorry for.  She had a huge hand in making her life turn out the way it did, but I'm sure she would have been a lot warmer had Jack been there for her emotionally.  And Alma, once again, a saint       .

[serious crayons]

OK, I went too far, didn't I?

No. In fact, you forgot about the bluebirds and the whiskey spring. And how LD Newsome would buy a round for the house.

I like Lureen, Cassie and LaShawn a lot. But let's just say I'm not a frequent contributor to the "I love everything Alma" thread. (Come to think of it, IS there one? I know there's one for each of the other three.)

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

And how LD Newsome would buy a round for the house.

Best thing I've heard in days!

Can't you just see Mrs. LD Newsome saying "Well, it's about time you boys came out.  Here we were wondering when you'd come around.  Got a whole case of beans for you  -- 120 cans."

BTW -- do you know what LaShawn would say?  The real question is, what wouldn't she say?!

[Meryl]

bump

[CarlaMom2]

Wow......those were some posts!  I think I need to watch the movie 50 times to catch up with you guys.  You really make the wheels in my head turn!

[Meryl]

I know, Carla, we've been at it awhile, and our wheels are still turning!  Glad you took the time to read and post. 

[Lynne]

I was just talkin the other day (tongue-in-cheek) about "ritual turkey carving", and look what I come across!   
 
*bump*

[Artiste]

Symbols ??

[Front-Ranger]

  This is further reinforced by the Basque.  The Basque is a very important character in the early part of the film.  He’s there to clue Ennis in on timing.  The only time restriction that Ennis has on the mountain is to meet the Basque every Friday at noon.  The one time we see Ennis meet the Basque for deliveries, the Basque tells Ennis that it’s too early in the summer for soup (to be sick of beans) – he’s telling Ennis that it’s too early in Ennis’ development to start a relationship with Jack – Ennis tried to order soup – a sexual relationship with Jack -- but was stuck with beans – a friendship relationship with Jack – but it’s too early for him.  Likewise, when Ennis asks why he didn’t get the spuds in this delivery, he’s told that there are none.  There isn’t a potato yet for Jack to peel – metaphorically, Jack is not yet ready either.  It’s immediately after the Basque scene that Ennis is confronted by the bear and is thrown from his horse, who was spooked.  Ennis was confronted by his fears and was spooked and he, himself, was thrown.  Immediately after Jack peels his potato (he’s getting ready to go further with Ennis) is the ‘yee-haw’ scene where Jack sees his opening – the sad pall brought down on their conversation by Ennis telling Jack that “Hell, that’s the most I’ve spoke in a year.”  And Jack takes his opening, and does his little mating dance for Ennis – Yee-Haw!

Here is the spot where ClancyPants (ruthlessly, in another incarnation) spoke about the meaning of the Basque's comment, "It's too early to be sick of beans."

Thanks for reviving this topic, Artiste!

[Front-Ranger]

A great read for Thanksgiving!

[serious crayons]

A great read for Thanksgiving!

Good idea, FRiend! I just linked this thread as a Thanksgiving greeting to our Brokie brethren over on IMDb.

[Luvlylittlewing]

Good idea, FRiend! I just linked this thread as a Thanksgiving greeting to our Brokie brethren over on IMDb.

I just saw it over there, K.  I've really enjoyed reading over this thread once again.  That GuyMadison (Clancy's current name) is one of my favorite BBM scholars.

[tango]

Cassie is one of my favorite characters!  See delivers the single most pivotal line in the entire film. 

Can you explain why this is for a newbie? I understand the point of Cassie and think you're talking about the "girls don't fall in love with fun" line right? If so (or not), can you explain what you mean?   Thanks so much. 

[serious crayons]

Can you explain why this is for a newbie? I understand the point of Cassie and think you're talking about the "girls don't fall in love with fun" line right? If so (or not), can you explain what you mean?   Thanks so much.  

Tango, ruthlesslysentimental is no longer among us on this site (AFAIK). It would be nice if he would pop in and explain it himself.

But I think you are right about what line he was referring to. Very insightful, "newbie"!  

As I recall, his feeling was that hearing that line made Ennis realize that Jack wasn't just in their relationship for the "fun" -- that he actually was in love. That's why Ennis suddenly looks so contemplative at that point.

And BTW, friend, welcome. If you dig back into the earlier threads on this forum, you will find many fascinating discussions of symbolism, metaphor, structure, etc. in the movie and story.

[tango]

Thank you.  I was kinda thinking along those lines myself but wasn't sure if it was another Cassie line. I spent so much time boo-hooing and sniffling the last 3rd of the movie, it's hard to catch it all.  I guess I'll just have to watch it again.    I have read quite a of the forums before I registered but still have many more to explore.  Thanks for the warm welcome.

[serious crayons]

Ruthlesslysentimental had many eccentricities, but he was an amazing Brokologist. His posts were like a Fitzgerald scholar deconstructing Gatsby.

Of course, the rest of us are pretty brilliant Brokologists, too! The best thing about analyzing this movie was how it was such a group effort. People spent literally years breaking down scenes, studying details, throwing together ideas, and it all gradually formed a complex collective understanding of so many aspects and levels: the metaphors and symbolism in everything from clothing to sets to landscape, the subtle dialogue that means far more than the words usually say, the an inkblot- or mirror-shaped structure, the religious and cultural subtexts, and so on. What an experience!

[Meryl]

Ruthlesslysentimental had many eccentricities, but he was an amazing Brokologist. His posts were like a Fitzgerald scholar deconstructing Gatsby.

Of course, the rest of us are pretty brilliant Brokologists, too! The best thing about analyzing this movie was how it was such a group effort. People spent literally years breaking down scenes, studying details, throwing together ideas, and it all gradually formed a complex collective understanding of so many aspects and levels: the metaphors and symbolism in everything from clothing to sets to landscape, the subtle dialogue that means far more than the words usually say, the an inkblot- or mirror-shaped structure, the religious and cultural subtexts, and so on. What an experience!

Well said, crayons!  It's a unique and wonderful thing to be a part of the "complex collective understanding" that is Brokology. 

[Front-Ranger]

Well said, crayons!  It's a unique and wonderful thing to be a part of the "complex collective understanding" that is Brokology. 

Amen!! 

[Front-Ranger]

...The one other thing I didn’t include in my OP is the one significant absence of a knife.  In the Twist family home, Mrs. Twist offers cherry cake.  How would she serve it to Ennis?  She'd have to use a knife to cut the cake.  But Ennis "can't eat no cake just now."  Text: no cake just now.  Subtext: he's sick with grief, doesn't feel like eating.  Metaphor: she offers to carve or form him a little more, but he's not ready for that last little bit of forming.  But, after Old Man Twist tells about the other rancher, and Mrs. Twist puts her hand of compassion on his shoulder to nudge him upstairs, the formation will become complete... as evoked by the fully formed cowboy statuette.

Actually, in the story, Mrs. Twist was carving up something (an apple?) with a "sharp serrated instrument" as Ennis entered the house.

I agree mostly with all the theories presented in this amazing topic, except for Jack being a potato. Jack was peeling a potato in the foreground as Ennis was peeling off his clothes in the background. To me, that says that Ennis is the potato and Jack is the knife. Jack is not only the can opener breaking open Ennis's armored spirit but he is also the knife peeling back the layers that Ennis has surrounded himself with. Watch how Jack's cigarette smoke swirls around the potato and also around the nude figure of Ennis and it will become clear. In Asian symbology, the knife is also a symbol for air, because it moves through the air and cuts through it with a swooshing sound. Jack was a knife and Ennis was a gun.

[serious crayons]

Jack was a knife and Ennis was a gun.

Brava! Almost eight years since pot and kettle, blue and tan, wind and earth ... and you're still discovering great Brokaphors!

[Front-Ranger]

Brava! Almost eight years since pot and kettle, blue and tan, wind and earth ... and you're still discovering great Brokaphors!

  I'm sure this Brokaphor has been discovered already but I don't recall a discussion of it. It makes sense though...gunpowder, explosion, fire, corresponds to Ennis and he was a good shot. The cool blue steel of a knife recalls Jack.

Likewise, a potato that grows hidden in the earth corresponds to Ennis. Jack is more like a coffee bean, or whiskey (which, in Gaelic, means water of life)

But if you want to get really deep into it, Ennis is the bread (or grain, like the barley growing outside the window in the last shot) and Jack is, what else? the wine.

[serious crayons]

Jack is more like a coffee bean

Hunh? But he's from Texas.

[Front-Ranger]

haha! But only Alma thought that Texans don't drink coffee (get passionate). And she knew better too!

Actually, Jack drank plenty of coffee as well as whiskey. I remember the scene when he came off the mountain, sat down at the campfire, checked out the coffeepot and closed it with a snap of disappointment since it was empty.

[serious crayons]

haha! But only Alma thought that Texans don't drink coffee (get passionate). And she knew better too!

Right, even she didn't really think that. Her "Texans don't drink coffee?" was in the tone of, "Quit gaslighting me, dude."

Actually, Jack drank plenty of coffee as well as whiskey. I remember the scene when he came off the mountain, sat down at the campfire, checked out the coffeepot and closed it with a snap of disappointment since it was empty.

Well, sure, he's the coffee pot, right? Or is he the kettle? Ennis spends his life looking for the coffee-pot handle, but it's the kettle that almost gets away from him in the river.

[x-man]

My discovery of "ruthlesslyunsemtimental" (and under his other names as well) has been one of the highlights of my time in BetteMost.  Does everyone "get it" when he starts in?  I crack up every time I read his work.  He should be required reading in every university literature and social science department on how not to write a scholarly paper.  Expressions like "send-up," "over-the-top," "cruel parody," just do not do him justice.  He is a real BetterMost treasure.  I wish you could collect his work in one topic site so it could be easily available for all to read.  Thank you, ruthlesslyunsentimental, for  brightening up our lives.

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, Casey Cornelius and ruthlessly were like the prince and the fool here during the heyday of BetterMost. Glad you like reading their work! But I still think Ennis is the potato, not Jack.

[TOoP/Bruce]

x-men,

FYI -- Ruthlesslyunsentimental also posted under the name Guymadison in some of the archived IMDb threads.