Green with Envy

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Colors are used symbolically in the film and blue, brown, red, and white have been discussed at some length.  I haven’t seen much time devoted to green, which, to me, is one of the most significant colors in the film.  So, if you don’t mind, I’d like to offer my observations and a few twists that I have for the color scheme of Brokeback Mountain.

First, I should say that colors are obviously found everywhere since all things reflect light giving off a particular wavelength, etc., etc.  But here, I’m talking about the overt use and placement of color.  In many scenes, there is some color, but it’s pale and not prominent and then all of a sudden there’s an object that reeks of a particular color.  It is of this I speak.


Blue and brown (tan)

It seems universally acknowledged that blue is the color of Jack and brown (tan) is the color of Ennis.  These colors are apparent in their clothing – when worn by themselves, signifying themselves; when worn by the other, signifying keeping the other one close.

Jack is blue, as the vast expense of the blue sky which carries Jack’s spirit in the form of the wind.  Ennis is brown (tan), representing the color of land, of the earth where his spirit treads.

Everyone seems to agree on these ideas, so enough said.  (Besides I’m about to get really long-winded, so hang on.)


Green

Green is the other extremely dominant color in their lives.  When they are on the mountain, Jack (blue, sky) and Ennis (brown, land) come together in the natural trees, bushes and grasses (green) that grow from the land and reach up into the sky, moved by the wind. 

Green is the color of the natural relationship that exists between Jack and Ennis that formed as a force of nature.  Green ties Jack and Ennis together.

Throughout their time on the mountain, they are surrounded by green as their relationship begins as a friendship and grows to a natural, coupled relationship.  But as they come down from the mountain, there is less and less beautiful and obvious green until they finally part in a dusty parking space.  Soon after, when Ennis has his breakdown, he is framed as a silhouette with a backdrop of blue sky (Jack) and green foliage (their natural relationship).

Each goes on with his life, and green plays a small part.  Ennis marries Alma.  Significantly over their heads in a tri-color stained glass window.  Orange, white, and green.  The green in the stained glass window signifies that Ennis is taking the natural relationship he had with Jack and is transferring some of it to a new, unnatural relationship with Alma.  (I call it unnatural because it’s not what his relationship in life is supposed to be.)  Orange represents the falseness that has been transferred by Ennis of the green of his natural relationship.  (Yellow is Jack’s color of the falsity of the transfer.)  The white in the stained glass window is the color of death.  Mix the green relationship that Ennis falsely transferred (orange) and death of the relationship (white) will occur.

As marriage to Ennis goes on, Alma will have more green transferred to her.  For example, she wears a green smock for her job, her children wear green clothes at times.  But when Jack reappears, the green is covered or intermingled.  Just as Alma steps back into her kitchen after seeing Jack and Ennis playing tonsil hockey, there is a green can (about the size of a hat box) behind her under where the coats are hung.  It has bits of orange and yellow in it, signaling that the married relationships of Jack and Ennis have had green relationship falsely transferred to them.  After the reunion, Alma huffs off to work against Ennis’ protest.  She is wearing her green smock, but it is covered by a blue coat.  Jack’s presence is eclipsing the bit of relationship that Ennis transferred to her. In Ennis’ preparation for the “You’re late” scene there are several notable orange items and, of course, the orange horsey in their living room during their quiet evening of TV watching.  These signify that the relationship (green) that he transferred to Alma is false.

In Jack’s life, he transferred very little of his share of the green to Lureen – in the beginning.  There is a small green jardinière by Lureen in her bedroom scene.  Later, she has a few small potted plants in her office.  But very little green is transferred to Lureen until after the post-divorce scene, after Jack realizes his hopes for a relationship with Ennis are futile, when suddenly her living room at Thanksgiving has a much larger number of green plants in it.  Jack begins to transfer more of his share of the green of his relationship with Ennis to Lureen.  But it is false.  There was a little bit of yellow around Lureen in the beginning (the paper she holds in the parka scene) but by Thanksgiving, she has a bright yellow chair and several bright yellow cushions in her home, that now has more green in it.  Each time Jack left one of his trysts with Ennis, he left having gotten a bit more disillusioned about their relationship and he seems to work harder at his family relationships… more green is transferred, but it’s false, yellow.

By the time of Alma’s Thanksgiving Spectacular, Ennis’ loss of his share of the green has transferred to a new relationship that Alma builds with Monroe.  In a sense, Alma grabbed it away from Ennis -- she was probably green with envy of Ennis' relationship with Jack.  Alma, Jr. wears a green dress and the walls of the kitchen are green.  And later we see that there is a lot of green foliage outside her home with Monroe whereas there never was around either of her homes with Ennis.  Back to Thanksgiving -- Alma Sr.’s dress is now rust and there is a rust-tone to the entire scene.  The orange that was Ennis’ part in the falsity of the non-Jack relationship has done its job and has turned from orange to rust, as does Jack’s truck after this scene. 

Apart from each other, there is very little green around them, but when they’re together, there is a lot of green – out in the middle of nowhere where their colors of blue and brown can intermingle in the green foliage again.  However, as their relationship dwindles, so too the green.  In the post-divorce scene, Jack drives to Ennis along a road completely devoid of green.  All of the foliage is brown and dead.  Jack should have noticed.  Bad omen.  (But who can blame him?  After all, he is a potato.)

The next scene with the two of them is at the suspicious mind scene.  Here, again, much foliage.  But, what has changed?  Notice that in the previous scene of them in nature, the “you’re late scene,” there is a green cooler next to Jack.  In the suspicious mind scene, the cooler has changed to red… the color of death of the object.  Although there will always be green foliage metaphysically retaining the natural relationship of Ennis and Jack as it grows from the land into the sky, this object that Jack brought along, the cooler, is Jack’s hope for the relationship and it goes from green to red, symbolizing the dying of Jack’s hope for their relationship.

Also, the final lake scene starts at night when it’s dark and there is no green.  The next morning, they’re by a still lake with green foliage far off in the distance, but they’re standing in the middle of a dead parking area… just as they did when they parted at the end of their first summer.

After Jack has died, there is very little green around Ennis.  When he goes to the Twist home all of the foliage is dead and brown.  But there is a green bowl on the kitchen counter.  Note how it is prominently seen and prominently green AFTER Ennis finds the shirts, but not before.  It stands as a reminder that the relationship was not completely lost with Jack’s death.  (In fact, this is one of the best examples in the film of how an object is overtly made to exude its color only at a particular moment.)  And as he drives home from the Twist home, Ennis, in his truck, is suffused with an eerie green wash.  He is alone physically, but with Jack in spirit, and the relationship continues in full-screen green.  Immediately around Ennis’ trailer, it’s dry and dead, but off a little in the distance is tall green grass.  This is prominently and symbolically seen out of Ennis’ window at the very end – the final shot shows us blue (Jack), brown (Ennis), and their relationship (green) with Jack’s spirit (the wind) blowing over the relationship.


Red and white

Red with an object signifies a symbolic death or dying occurring for that object or for what it represents.  For example, Jack’s red vest on his blue shirt (and earlier covered by his blue parka) in the suspicious mind scene signifies the relationship dying for Jack -- this is their first scene together after Jack learned at the post-divorce scene that Ennis’ real reason for not living with Jack was his fear, not his marriage or children, or job.  Ennis’ tan with red lining vest at the swing set scene signifies the relationship dying for Ennis – this scene occurs immediately after Ennis put the big breaks on their relationship with the Earl death story.  And Ennis knows that it’s his fears that are his primary motivators for not having a life with Jack.  Jack doesn’t learn this until the post-divorce scene. 

White is the overt color symbolizing Jack’s death (the white truck, the coming snow).  I’ve seen a lot of agreement on these points, so I won’t elaborate.

However, there is a greater symbolism to when red and white come together.  When these two colors come together, there is a death brought about by Jack not tending to what he should be tending to.

Everyone seems to notice the symbolism in the death of the sheep (a white coated animal gutted to its red interior) and the parallel to Alma at the reunion kiss scene where she wears her white sweater over her red dress as if she’s been gutted.  And there seems to be an assumption that the focus is on Ennis.  However, this would not explain the red and white associated with Jack and Lureen’s meeting and the continuance of it with his truck.

No, the focus should be on Jack.  Who was supposed to be guarding the sheep the night the significant sheep died?  Jack.  He was set up as herder by Aguirre – like God setting the rules for the inhabitants of Eden – and it’s only because Jack and Ennis switched roles that Ennis is the one who rode off and found the dead sheep.  But Jack was supposed to have been the good shepherd and HE wasn’t doing his assigned job.  Similarly, when Alma is gutted, one could blame Ennis – after all, she’s his wife.  But the whole reunion occurred because Jack was not tending to what he was supposed to be tending to – his marriage relationship.

When Jack meets Lureen, it’s a veritable whirlwind of red and white colors.  Jack is the one (of the Ennis-Jack relationship) who understands and accepts himself more fully for what he is, gay.  When he meets Lureen, he brings a death not only to her (signified by her wearing of red and white), but also to himself by not being true to what and who his is – signified by his driving a red and white truck.  Jack didn’t tend to the most important thing that he should have, his own self.  And so he is bathed in red and white.


Two final notes –

Since I mentioned the blue parka above, it’s also interesting to note that Jack is looking for his blue parka to keep himself warm so he doesn’t freeze to death.  And Lureen hasn’t got his goddamn parka – she has no idea what will keep him warm, what will ward off his death (as signified by his being cold and the coming snow), nor does she seem to care.

And since I just mentioned Jack’s death, purple seems to be the pall that casts itself over his home signifying his impending death – blue (Jack) + red (death) = purple (Jack’s death).


So what have we learned?

Keep your relationships green, don’t mix red and white, and Jack is still a potato.

[JennyC]

Wow, I am blown away again by your "ruthlessly unsentimental" analysis.  I had to admit that I have not noticed the significance of the colors in the movie.  I will leave our more eloquent members to comment on your analysis.  Just want to say that I read it and really appreciate your insights.  Thanks for sharing this with us.

[slayers_creek_oth]

Wow, I am blown away again by your "ruthlessly unsentimental" analysis.  I had to admit that I have not noticed the significance of the colors in the movie.  I will leave our more eloquent members to comment on your analysis.  Just want to say that I read it and really appreciate your insights.  Thanks for sharing this with us.

Ditto!  I am still processing your other post...LOL

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Wow, I am blown away again by your "ruthlessly unsentimental" analysis.  I had to admit that I have not noticed the significance of the colors in the movie.  I will leave our more eloquent members to comment on your analysis.  Just want to say that I read it and really appreciate your insights.  Thanks for sharing this with us.

Anytime.  Thanks.  You’re very kind.  It's just that some things really seem to pop out of the film.  Like all of that red and white around Lureen and Jack when they first met.  It just screams out "figure this out!"  So, whenever I'm doing mundane things (like driving       ) I think about these things.  Since I've seen the film somewhere around 150 times, I can play it over in my head and see just about everything again and again.

But!  Here's something that I hadn’t noticed at all until just earlier today...

When Ennis drives up to the Twist house, Mrs. Twist comes out the front door to greet him, right?  Just before she opens the door you can see her come and look out the window of the door before she opens it.  I don’t think it has any significance, but it's just another subtle detail that makes the film so realistic.  Others probably saw it on their first viewing.  There’s just so much to pick up in this movie, but never enough time.

[serious crayons]

Ruthlessly, there are so many really interesting ideas here. I like your overall theory a lot.

I don't agree with every last tiny detail. Regarding some of the home furnishings, I hate to be one of those people who says this because I hate when people say this to me, but, well, some of them seem sort of incidental to me. I know, I know, nothing is incidental. But still ... Maybe that's just a sign of me only watching the movie 15 times to your 150. Early in my Brokeback career, I thought the same thing about all color symbolism, but eventually I wised up. So maybe I will change my mind again.

And I have different ideas about red and white (see below).

But as they come down from the mountain, there is less and less beautiful and obvious green until they finally part in a dusty parking space.

The least green scene of all must be the Earl flashback, hunh? The setting is completely arid and lifeless -- the force of nature is dead in that place.

Also, when Ennis rides away after TS1, he rides along a rockier, less green landscape than we see the rest of the time on Brokeback. Maybe because the relationship's viability is momentarily in question?

Apart from each other, there is very little green around them, but when they’re together, there is a lot of green – out in the middle of nowhere where their colors of blue and brown can intermingle in the green foliage again.  However, as their relationship dwindles, so too the green.  In the post-divorce scene, Jack drives to Ennis along a road completely devoid of green.

One exception to the scarcity of green when they're apart: when Ennis is on the road crew, and he turns away from Timmy (after Timmy talks about breakin his back) and gazes off at all the green in the distance, thinking of his relationship with Jack. The tar-crew job -- Ennis' prospective bleak future sans Jack -- means, by definition, paving over (burying!) green.

Also, the final lake scene starts at night when it’s dark and there is no green.  The next morning, they’re by a still lake with green foliage far off in the distance, but they’re standing in the middle of a dead parking area… just as they did when they parted at the end of their first summer.

Good one ... the idyllic green mountains do look pretty distant at that point.

After Jack has died, there is very little green around Ennis.  When he goes to the Twist home all of the foliage is dead and brown.  But there is a green bowl on the kitchen counter.  Note how it is prominently seen and prominently green AFTER Ennis finds the shirts, but not before.  It stands as a reminder that the relationship was not completely lost with Jack’s death.

This is prominently and symbolically seen out of Ennis’ window at the very end – the final shot shows us blue (Jack), brown (Ennis), and their relationship (green) with Jack’s spirit (the wind) blowing over the relationship.

The green bowl at the Twists is a home-furnishings interpretation that does sound very deliberate. And that's an excellent reading of the view outside Ennis' trailer window.

Red with an object signifies a symbolic death or dying occurring for that object or for what it represents.  For example, Jack’s red vest on his blue shirt (and earlier covered by his blue parka) in the suspicious mind scene signifies the relationship dying for Jack -- this is their first scene together after Jack learned at the post-divorce scene that Ennis’ real reason for not living with Jack was his fear, not his marriage or children, or job.  Ennis’ tan with red lining vest at the swing set scene signifies the relationship dying for Ennis – this scene occurs immediately after Ennis put the big breaks on their relationship with the Earl death story.  And Ennis knows that it’s his fears that are his primary motivators for not having a life with Jack.  Jack doesn’t learn this until the post-divorce scene. 

White is the overt color symbolizing Jack’s death (the white truck, the coming snow).  I’ve seen a lot of agreement on these points, so I won’t elaborate.

Regarding red and white I have a somewhat different view. I think of red as representing passion and/or love, which is why spunky Lureen starts out bright red and progressively fades as the movie goes on and she becomes embittered. Alma wears dull reds in the reunion scene and Thanksgiving scene -- she's not as passionate a gal as Lureen, but it's there. Both the men's red-lined vests signify, to me, secret passion kept close to the heart. In the lakeside scene, Jack's parka is tan with a dark reddish-brown lining -- the passion has dulled a little, but it's still there, and it's still for Ennis.

White I'm less clear about. In the Twist's house, it certainly seems to allude to Jack's death. And I guess on the sheep. But otherwise white seems to me to warn of the end of a relationship. That would explain the white pickup (and perhaps, by extension, Alma's sweater in the reunion scene -- though in that case it would be her relationship with Ennis that's threatened).

Snow is a white form of water, their relationship. On their final night, Jack predicts snow -- suggesting the relationship will end. But then it doesn't snow. Things go on as they had, for now. But it's always so friggin cold when they're together that it could snow at any time. (If only they could go south, to Mexico or Texas, where snow is rare.)

BTWy, there's a red-and-white plaid shirt hanging in Ennis' closet at the end.

Jack is looking for his blue parka to keep himself warm so he doesn’t freeze to death.  And Lureen hasn’t got his goddamn parka – she has no idea what will keep him warm, what will ward off his death (as signified by his being cold and the coming snow), nor does she seem to care.

That last remark seems a little unfair -- Lureen cares about as much as any wife should be expected to care about her husband's goddamn parka if he can't keep track of it himself. But you're right, it does suggest she has no power to ward off his death.

We haven't even gotten into gray -- Ennis' dad's jacket, Ennis jacket in the final scenes, the blackish/grayish blues that Jack wears post-divorce scene (and, interestingly, in the wood-chopping scene with Aguirre) -- but there's always enough time for that, always enough.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

I don't agree with every last tiny detail.

S’alright.

Regarding some of the home furnishings, I hate to be one of those people who says this but, well, some of them seem sort of incidental to me. I know, I know, nothing is incidental.

When I bring up an object, I do it because it’s extremely prominently used or displayed one time (e.g., the little cowboy figurine in Jack’s room), OR because it’s prominently used or displayed several times (e.g., knives) OR because its color jumps out of the screen as opposed to other objects in the same scene (e.g., the green bowl in the Twist home).  I try really hard to not bring up objects that don’t somehow ask to be noticed.

The least green scene of all must be the Earl flashback, hunh? The setting is completely arid and lifeless -- the force of nature is dead in that place.

Also, when Ennis rides away after TS1, he rides along a rockier, less green landscape than we see the rest of the time on Brokeback. Maybe because the relationship's viability is momentarily in question?

Because I believe the green=relationship theory, I agree.  The Earl flashback scene is a great scene juxtaposing Earl’s and Rich’s relationship with that of Jack and Ennis.

One exception to the scarcity of green when they're apart: when Ennis is on the road crew, and he turns away from Timmy (after Timmy talks about breakin his back) and gazes off at all the green in the distance, thinking of his relationship with Jack. The tar-crew job -- the prospects for Ennis' bleak future sans Jack -- means, by definition, paving over green.

Actually, I think you make a good point for this scene supporting the green=relationship theory.

I also view this scene as linked to the two other significant appearances of pavement.  Yes, there are paved roads everywhere in the film, but only 3 significant appearances of pavement:

First, the tar scene – Ennis is on the pavement, and the man’s comments evoke Brokeback, raising a suspicion in Ennis about people knowing.  Second, the post-Thanksgiving fight scene – Ennis is pummeled down to and on the pavement immediately after Alma did her best to make sure that that was a Thanksgiving Ennis would remember – again, suspicion.  Third, the suspicious mind scene – Ennis’ suspicions about people knowing have magnified across these scenes so much so that he displays actual paranoia in his question for Jack about going to town and then out on the pavement.  He should stick to dirt roads…

The green bowl at the Twists is a home-furnishings interpretation I think I do agree with.

It just screams out to be noticed.  Nothing else in the house pops in color like that bowl.  In fact, it, like the orange horsey and the orange blanket (?) in Ennis’ Riverton apartment seem to have been colorized in final production. 



I re-read your comments about red and white and then I read my original comments and I tried to put your view into what I wrote.  Some of it certainly fits.  But here are some sticky wickets for me:

If an object or color is significant, I try to relate its significance to how it’s used, how it’s seen, what’s happening, what has just happened, or what is about to happen.

With the two vests, I can see Ennis’ vest fitting with passion, because of its following the ear rub of the reunion river scene.  But, then it also fits with death or dying, for the same reason.  As to Jack’s vest, why, in particular, would it be displaying passion in this scene?  Just to display passion or because it’s linked to something else?  I can’t find the link when it comes to passion.  Also, the cooler has changed from green to red.  In the death or dying theory, the green relationship cooler has changed to a symbol of the dying relationship.  In the passion theory, it doesn’t seem to connect with the green cooler used before.  See, I think the cooler is an important prop because it changed color from its first appearance to its second.  Had the cooler first appeared as green in the river reunion scene and then changed to red for the “you’re late” scene, then I could see it as the green relationship being infused with passion since this scene exemplifies both of them being comfortable with the new rules of their relationship as set up in the river reunion scene.

Also, concerning red alone, there are several notable blood scenes.  Ennis’ head wound – I don’t see passion here, I see Jack being disappointed.  He gave a loving, healing gesture to Jack and the blood red killed that off with Ennis’ refusal to allow it.  Earl’s crotch in the flashback – I don’t want to speculate on a passion connection here (sorry!); but, the red=death or dying seems to fit.  The blood on the shirts – the blood came out of Ennis.  The death/dying theory seems to fit.  It was immediately before this that Ennis was most open, most vulnerable, most content, most … everything good.  His blood symbolizes his death or dying – emotionally.  Just as Jack began his death at the post-divorce scene, Ennis began his on that last day on the mountain.  Again, not either of their physical deaths, but a death of, well, their passion.  The shirts strongly represent the union of Jack and Ennis (spiritually, metaphysically, friends, lovers, the whole shebang) so when Ennis wiped his blood on the shirts (Jack helped him, of course), he permanently etched his emotional death onto their relationship.  And it stayed there until it was too late.  (Jack really should have washed those shirts, I guess.)

Besides, there are a number of other examples of various levels of passion occurring for or between certain characters that do not seem to have any red around symbolically.  Also, note Mrs. Twist’s hair.  It almost makes her look like a dyed-hair woman.  Her hair color doesn’t seem to have anything to do with passion, but it does seem to have to do with her death -- on an emotional level, again, living her life in that white house with Old Man Twist.  (Boy, I sure hope Ennis visited that sweet, needful old lady again… if I ever find out he didn’t, I’m gonna kick his ignorant ass into next week!)

You mentioned red with Lureen and her passion, dull red with Alma and her not being as passionate.  The problem I have with this is that Lureen’s red is not just red.  It’s red and white.  I mean A LOT of red and white.  Same with Alma at the reunion kiss scene.  Same with the dead sheep.  Taking red for passion and white as an end to the relationship, I can see it with Lureen (as foreshadowing) and Alma, but not with the sheep.  The sheep is directly connected to the FNIT.  The FNIT wasn’t really so much about passion as it was lust.  And, the relationship didn’t experience any death through the FNIT or the sheep; rather, it got significantly better immediately after the dead sheep scene, turning to gentle love.

Also, Jack’s red and white truck makes its first appearance when Jack wasn’t tending to his (or Ennis’) marriage, not at a time when passion and the end of their relationship were mingled.  Here, their relationship burst into a new expression of itself which they were content with for a good number of years.

As far as white on its own, re-reading everything you and I each wrote, I can see how either works.  But, it’s that obvious and repeated pairing of red and white that doesn’t seem to add up if red=passion and white=the end of a relationship.

Incidentally, there's a red-and-white plaid shirt hanging in Ennis' closet at the end.

Yes.  I’ve noticed this and I forgot to include it in my original post.  I do think it’s significant that it’s a shirt that is red and white, right next to THE shirts.  Applying my theory, Jack not tending to the relationship (symbolized by THE shirts) brought about a death or dying in the relationship.  I believe this applies well, especially when you take THE shirts back to BBM, back to the fight scene.  The relationship began its death because Jack didn’t take the lead as he was always supposed to do.  This, as you know, I’ve covered in another one of my threads.

That last remark seems a little unfair -- Lureen cares about as much as any wife should be expected to care about her husband's goddamn parka if he can't keep track of it himself. But you're right, it does suggest she has no power to ward off his death.

Yes, you’re right.  Re-reading it, it was unfair and untrue.  I do believe that Lureen loved Jack and that her love would not have diminished had Jack actually been there emotionally.  He “loved” Lureen, but I don’t think he was ever really “in love” with Lureen.

Twenty lashes for me with a raw, limp slab of elk flesh.

We haven't even gotten into gray -- Ennis' dad's jacket, Ennis jacket in the final scenes, the blackish/grayish blues that Jack wears post-divorce scene (and, interestingly, in the wood-chopping scene with Aguirre) -- but there's always enough time for that, always enough time.

I didn’t bring this up because I thought it would be more appropriate in a thread about clothing.  And there are some good, juicy morsels lurking out there for a thread on clothing.

As ALWAYS, it’s been a pleasure!




Oops!  One last thing I forgot and then remembered...

The appearance of the Jolly Green Giant in the supermarket scene.  He stands out like a sore thumb.  An indication that while Ennis has transferred some of his relationship to Alma (her smock), his relationship with Jack is looming large above and near him.  It's right after this that Jack and Lureen have their big homecoming for beautiful baby boy Bobby, where "rodeo" drops the keys thrown to him to get him out of the "real" Newsome family causing Jack to send the postcard, seen in the next scene where Ennis of the sea sees what we seen seemingly in the previous scene.  Sorry, I got a bad case of the always asinine alliteration affliction...

[serious crayons]

When I bring up an object, I do it because it’s extremely prominently used or displayed one time (e.g., the little cowboy figurine in Jack’s room), OR because it’s prominently used or displayed several times (e.g., knives) OR because its color jumps out of the screen as opposed to other objects in the same scene (e.g., the green bowl in the Twist home).  I try really hard to not bring up objects that don’t somehow ask to be noticed.

I know. And I just absolutely hate it when people respond to my theories -- as many do! -- with "sometimes a (something) is just a (something)." I hate it because, IMO, with all due respect, those people are wrong, wrong, wrong. ( ) And also because I think they're depriving themselves of a whole level of appreciation of the movie.

That said, I have trouble overhauling my whole theoretical structure on the basis of a detail I hardly noticed, like the changing cooler, or the fact that the blood is red instead of some other color. But I'm willing to consider the possibility that this just reflects the stage of my Brokeback development, and that at some later point I'll come to think of these points as being as obvious as Jack=blue and Ennis=tan. I don't mean to sound dismissive of your ideas.

latjoreme: One exception to the scarcity of green when they're apart: when Ennis is on the road crew, and he turns away from Timmy (after Timmy talks about breakin his back) and gazes off at all the green in the distance, thinking of his relationship with Jack. The tar-crew job -- the prospects for Ennis' bleak future sans Jack -- means, by definition, paving over green.

ruthlessly: Actually, I think you make a good point for this scene supporting the green=relationship theory.

Yeah, that's what I meant! I was citing it as further evidence for your theory -- in fact, it's sort of an exception that proves the rule.

the man’s comments evoke Brokeback, raising a suspicion in Ennis about people knowing.

I don't see this that way. I think he's thinking longingly of Jack, and of his bleak future sans Jack.

Third, the suspicious mind scene – Ennis’ suspicions about people knowing have magnified across these scenes so much so that he displays actual paranoia in his question for Jack about going to town and then out on the pavement.

Excellent catch. I'd always thought that his use of the word "pavement" rather than "street" calls attention to itself.

As to Jack’s vest, why, in particular, would it be displaying passion in this scene?  Just to display passion or because it’s linked to something else?  I can’t find the link when it comes to passion.

Well, first, I guess looking back I see that you clearly referred to Jack's vest in the "suspicious minds" scene. But somehow I was thinking of Jack's vest in the reunion scene -- which I guess is not actually red-lined, but is worn over an uncharacteristically red shirt.

Second, I guess I'm not very concrete about what I mean by passion, maybe because, IMO, the filmmakers weren't being particularly concrete, either. I'm referring not necessarily to passion displayed in that exact scene or passion in its most literal sense, but passion in the vaguer sense of longing, or love. Like a "carrying a torch" sort of passion. I'll just call it passion for short, though (you got a better idea?). So to me the fact that Ennis comes to the reunion wearing a Jack-striped shirt and Jack arrives in a passion-colored shirt under an Ennis-colored vest feels significant. Back to suspicious minds, it seems possible that Jack is wearing a passion- (or love-) colored vest when he's giving one more shot to the sweet-life idea.

Also, the cooler has changed from green to red.  In the death or dying theory, the green relationship cooler has changed to a symbol of the dying relationship.  In the passion theory, it doesn’t seem to connect with the green cooler used before.  See, I think the cooler is an important prop because it changed color from its first appearance to its second.

See, my problem here is that I hadn't noticed the cooler, period ( ). So it's hard for me to put a lot of weight in the possible metaphoric meaning of a prop I'd never even seen (though it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about that).

Also, concerning red alone, there are several notable blood scenes.  Ennis’ head wound – I don’t see passion here, I see Jack being disappointed.  He gave a loving, healing gesture to Jack and the blood red killed that off with Ennis’ refusal to allow it.  Earl’s crotch in the flashback – I don’t want to speculate on a passion connection here (sorry!); but, the red=death or dying seems to fit.  The blood on the shirts – the blood came out of Ennis.  The death/dying theory seems to fit.  It was immediately before this that Ennis was most open, most vulnerable, most content, most … everything good.  His blood symbolizes his death or dying – emotionally.  Just as Jack began his death at the post-divorce scene, Ennis began his on that last day on the mountain.  Again, not either of their physical deaths, but a death of, well, their passion.  The shirts strongly represent the union of Jack and Ennis (spiritually, metaphysically, friends, lovers, the whole shebang) so when Ennis wiped his blood on the shirts (Jack helped him, of course), he permanently etched his emotional death onto their relationship.  And it stayed there until it was too late.

It's hard for me to read much significance into the fact that the filmmakers didn't make the blood some other color. Same, BTW, with the sheep. What else are they going to do?

Also, note Mrs. Twist’s hair.  It almost makes her look like a dyed-hair woman.  Her hair color doesn’t seem to have anything to do with passion, but it does seem to have to do with her death -- on an emotional level, again, living her life in that white house with Old Man Twist.

But isn't her hair dye more brown? (So maybe it suggests her empathy for Ennis! ) Also, it seems unnecessary to include metaphors explaining the relationship between the Twists, one because it's off topic and two because it's pretty clear what their relationship is like.

You mentioned red with Lureen and her passion, dull red with Alma and her not being as passionate.  The problem I have with this is that Lureen’s red is not just red.  It’s red and white.  I mean A LOT of red and white.  Same with Alma at the reunion kiss scene.  Same with the dead sheep.  Taking red for passion and white as an end to the relationship, I can see it with Lureen (as foreshadowing) and Alma, but not with the sheep.  The sheep is directly connected to the FNIT.  The FNIT wasn’t really so much about passion as it was lust.  And, the relationship didn’t experience any death through the FNIT or the sheep; rather, it got significantly better immediately after the dead sheep scene, turning to gentle love.

Hmm ... how about, red and white together equals passion mixed with foreshadowing of an ending. White clearly signals endings in reference to Jack and Ennis. So Lureen is passionate, but the end of her relationship is in sight. Alma is a bit less passionate, and in the reunion scene the end of her relationshp is covering up the red. (And in the Thanksgiving scene -- a new, though dull, passion, but no white). (Incidentally, I love how often Alma is shown in light blue -- particularly noticable in the bedroom scene -- she's a pale imitation of Jack.)

Also, Jack’s red and white truck makes its first appearance when Jack wasn’t tending to his (or Ennis’) marriage, not at a time when passion and the end of their relationship were mingled.  Here, their relationship burst into a new expression of itself which they were content with for a good number of years.

Well, the passion is there, but the end is foreshadowed.

Incidentally, there's a red-and-white plaid shirt hanging in Ennis' closet at the end.

Yes.  I’ve noticed this and I forgot to include it in my original post.  I do think it’s significant that it’s a shirt that is red and white, right next to THE shirts.  Applying my theory, Jack not tending to the relationship (symbolized by THE shirts) brought about a death or dying in the relationship.  I believe this applies well, especially when you take THE shirts back to BBM, back to the fight scene.  The relationship began its death because Jack didn’t take the lead as he was always supposed to do.  This, as you know, I’ve covered in another one of my threads.

I have trouble basing one theoretical idea on another, possibly disputed, theory. In other words, to say that a shirt is red because we know that Jack didn't take the lead as he was supposed to. Besides, I think this fits my interpretation, too:  In Ennis' closet, the passion and the ending are mingled.

I didn’t bring this up because I thought it would be more appropriate in a thread about clothing.  And there are some good, juicy morsels lurking out there for a thread on clothing.

Well then I suggest you start one, pronto! Or resurrect one of these older threads:

"Black hats, white hats"

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1266.0

or

"Color coordination"

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1247.msg25606#msg25606

I would love to hear your views on gray and black. To me, those are the colors that equal death -- the equivalent of your red and white, I guess.

As ALWAYS, it’s been a pleasure!

For me, too!

The appearance of the Jolly Green Giant in the supermarket scene.  He stands out like a sore thumb.  An indication that while Ennis has transferred some of his relationship to Alma (her smock), his relationship with Jack is looming large above and near him.

Good one! I won't dispute the Giant.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

And I just absolutely hate it when people respond to my theories -- as many do! -- with "sometimes a (something) is just a (something)." I hate it because, IMO, with all due respect, those people are wrong, wrong, wrong. ( ) And also because I think they're depriving themselves of a whole level of appreciation of the movie.

Amen to that!

I don't mean to sound dismissive of your ideas.

You never do sound dismissive.  It’s all about argument and counterargument and evidence and theories and maybe even finding common ground.  I love the back and forth stuff.

I don't see this that way. I think he's thinking longingly of Jack, and of his bleak future sans Jack.

Right.  And I don’t mean to discount this.  But I think there are several things all going on at once.  The pavement theory is more on the metaphoric level while I think you’ve got the sub-text level.

I'd always thought that his use of the word "pavement" rather than "street" calls attention to itself.

Exactly.  It’s one of those words that just jumps out at a person.  When have you ever heard someone phrase something like that?  I never have.  “I was out on the pavement one day…”  huh?

…maybe because, IMO, the filmmakers weren't being particularly concrete, either.

That’s the beauty of metaphor and symbolism.  We can rake it over the tar for hours.

I'll just call it passion for short, though (you got a better idea?).

I did once.  (Now what am *I* talking about here?       )

So it's hard for me to put a lot of weight in the possible metaphoric meaning of a prop I'd never even seen…

Well, there’s a first time for everything.  As I said elsewhere, I didn’t catch Mrs. Twist looking out her door window to see who was there before actually opening the door.  Small, subtle detail lost on me for 150 viewings.  It must have been the beans!

It's hard for me to read much significance into the fact that the filmmakers didn't make the blood some other color. Same, BTW, with the sheep. What else are they going to do?

But, they did make sure we saw it.  It didn’t have to be a gutted sheep.  It could have been lightning again this year.  And, there are only so many appearances of blood.  Ennis could have sprained his ankle and Jack could have offered a foot rub or to prop Ennis’ foot up on a log, and Ennis could have responded the same way.  But they chose blood -- five times.  They didn’t show us Ennis’ blood when he was attacked on the pavement, nor did they show us biker blood.  But they did show us Ennis’ blood after the bear, sheep blood, Ennis’ blood at the fight scene, Earl’s blood, and Jack’s blood in the tire iron scene.  We never saw Jack bleed when he was thrown from two different bulls.  Blood makes its bloody appearance at very specific moments.

But isn't her hair dye more brown?

It looks really red to me, especially in the close-up after she’s packed the shirts.

Also, it seems unnecessary to include metaphors explaining the relationship between the Twists, one because it's off topic and two because it's pretty clear what their relationship is like.

Well, it’s not off the topic of the significance of the color red.  Also, to follow the reasoning of your second reason, it’s pretty clear to us throughout the movie how Jack and Ennis each feel so why would the filmmakers feel they need to throw in a color (red) to show us how they feel (passion)?

Hmm ... how about, red and white together equals passion mixed with foreshadowing of an ending.

As much as I’m looking for common ground, I still don’t think it takes into account the other things I mentioned, imho.

Incidentally, I love how often Alma is shown in light blue -- particularly noticable in the bedroom scene -- she's a pale imitation of Jack.[

Exactly.  And when she storms away from Ennis in her green smock (relationship) covered by the blue coat (Jack), Ennis must be thinking, “Jack would never storm away from me with our relationship!”  Hmmmm, could be true, could be irony.

Good one! I won't dispute the Giant.

Good thing.  NO ONE disputes the Jolly Green Giant.  If one tried, Mr. Jolly wouldn’t stay that way for long.

[Front-Ranger]

Well, how would you feel about the idea of red signifying something like life-force, instead of death or passion? To me, clearly white denotes death (this is the Asian tradition) and there are several various meanings for red. Actually, red usually indicates happiness or prosperity, but Lee has something different in mind for this movie. I also noted the red-lined vest Ennis was wearing when he "kicks the bucket" in the swingset scene, and the red vest Jack wears when he returns to the trailer to sign up for a third year of work. Red in those instances definitely didn't represent death to me as the reunion had just occurred in the former case, and hadn't happened yet in the latter case.

But I have to agree with you, Ruth, about Ma Twist's hair, it is really red.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Well, how would you feel about the idea of red signifying something like life-force, ... the red vest Jack wears when he returns to the trailer to sign up for a third year of work. Red in those instances definitely didn't represent death to me as the reunion had just occurred in the former case, and hadn't happened yet in the latter case.

I can't really see a connection with life-force and red in the Aguirre trailer scene.  Besides, it seems wind is Jack's life force -- e.g., "look what the wind blew in" and the fan spinning on Jack’s entrance -- almost as if he was controlling the weather.

I don't think red means death or dying of the relationship (that would be red and green).  It does seem to represent a death or dying process of the object of attention.  In the Aguirre trailer, Jack's spirit experiences a death when Aguirre makes it clear that he saw them doing ... well, YOU know! ... up on the mountain and that he doesn't approve.  So much so that even though Aguirre hired Jack back for a second summer after the sheep loss of the first summer, Aguirre won’t hire Jack back for a third summer because of the coupling of two years worth of sheep loss plus Jack not tending to his duties, stemmin' the rose instead.

In the scene with Ennis kicking the bucket, the death or dying represented is about the relationship because this is immediately after Ennis put a big downer on Jack's suggestion for a full life together and Alma is wearing her green smock (relationship), covered in blue (Jack) walking away from Ennis.  I can also see it represent a death or dying of Ennis' spirit because of this happening immediately after the river reunion scene and Ennis dismissing Jack's suggestion.

But I have to agree with you, Ruth, about Ma Twist's hair, it is really red.

So you know a dyed-hair woman too, huh?

[serious crayons]

Right.  And I don’t mean to discount this.  But I think there are several things all going on at once.  The pavement theory is more on the metaphoric level while I think you’ve got the sub-text level.

But aren't you kind of co-opting the metaphoric level by saying that any interpretation not connected to Ennis' fear doesn't reach it? Also, this seems like another example of what I was talking about in my previous post, of making one theory dependent on another theory. IF (your theory that) Timmy's reference to a broken back raise Ennis' suspicions that people know about his activities on Brokeback (which, even by Ennis' standards, is a pretty ridiculous overreaction), THEN (your theory that) pavement in this scene is connected with pavement in two other scenes involving fear. Or is it vise versa? In other words, does A prove B only because B proves A?

I'm not as convinced that the underlying web of metaphors and symbols are all connected to Ennis' fear, and that anything not connected to that fear is merely subtext. Partly because I think the metaphors and symbols are more scattered and complex and ambiguous and abstract than that -- not all neatly tied together into one grand linear theme. And partly because for me to put that much weight on Ennis' fear would require me to overhaul my opinion of Ennis' character, and I'm not ready to do that, as you probably surmise from my comments on other threads. I see his fear balanced more evenly with his love, which is what makes the struggle between the two emotions so titanic and lets the plot drag out for two decades, rather than ending pretty abruptly after two months, or at most four years.

So maybe someday I'll be slapping my forehead in belated recognition (god knows it wouldn't be the first time!). But for now, I'm happy with: Ennis is paving over (symbol of civilization, society) their natural green life together (symbol), wearing a bright-Jack-colored shirt (symbol), working with an overly chatty guy (excessive chattiness -- think of LaShawn! -- always symbolizes a poor substitute  ) who is neither cute nor fun, gazing off into the distance (more symbolic outdoor green) and missing Jack. And wearing something other than a cowboy hat (symbol)!

the filmmakers weren't being particularly concrete, either.

That’s the beauty of metaphor and symbolism.  We can rake it over the tar for hours.

Exactly! Because metaphors and symbols allow artists to express things in non-concrete terms, I think they take advantage of that opportunity to be abstract and complicated. Which is why I resist tying them to interpretations that seem tidy and specific.

But, they did make sure we saw it.  It didn’t have to be a gutted sheep.  It could have been lightning again this year.

No, it couldn't. Because the sheep evokes Earl and danger, not Jack's experiences the previous summer. Also, while a field full of charred sheep would certainly have been an unsettling image, it wouldn't have the archetypical power of a gutted (sacrificial) one.

Ennis could have sprained his ankle and Jack could have offered a foot rub

  That would have been a great way to foreshadow Cassie! Ennis could fling his feet into Jack's lap and say, "Tryin to get a footrub, dumbass!"

But they chose blood -- five times.  They didn’t show us Ennis’ blood when he was attacked on the pavement, nor did they show us biker blood.  But they did show us Ennis’ blood after the bear, sheep blood, Ennis’ blood at the fight scene, Earl’s blood, and Jack’s blood in the tire iron scene.  We never saw Jack bleed when he was thrown from two different bulls.  Blood makes its bloody appearance at very specific moments.

I'm not sayin blood isn't a significant symbol. Only that its color might not be the important characteristic.

It looks really red to me, especially in the close-up after she’s packed the shirts.

OK, maybe "deep auburn." 

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

I'm not as convinced that the underlying web of metaphors and symbols are all connected to Ennis' fear, …

Let me start with this part first.

Yikes! Yowsers! Heavens to Betsy! Holy cow! And, of course, Gad-zoinks!

My goodness gracious, I never meant to imply that all of the metaphors and symbols are connected to Ennis’ fears.  Not at all.  I hope I didn’t actually say that, because if I did, I’m an even bigger dork than I’ve always thought.  If I implied it, whoops!

No.  Certain metaphors go back to that as does certain symbolism, but not all.  For example, the metaphor of green=relationship is not about Ennis’ fears.  It’s about the relationship.  For all of their time on Brokeback, green was the color that linked the two of them together, Jack of the blue sky and Ennis of the brown earth.  Now, there may be some instances where a discussion of Ennis’ fears is relevant to how the green=relationship metaphor is stitched into a particular scene in its thread throughout the film; but, not always.

That having been said, it’s probably a good idea to talk for a minute about the huge significance of Ennis’ fears and why they appear so regularly.  As you know, I am very much against going back to the short story to explain the film.  Here, I go back not to the short story, but to the author.  Proulx has corrected many an interviewer who has asked her about her “gay love story.”  She always responds that it’s not a gay love story, it’s a tragedy.  The theme of Brokeback Mountain is the destructive effects of rural homophobia on society and its people.  The plotline that was used by Proulx to achieve her objective of illustrating her theme is a love story between two young, gay men in a rural setting.  She saw the old man in the bar watching the younger dudes playing pool and she envisioned his possible life as a gay man in a rural setting.  She envisioned the things he must have had to have gone through being a gay man in a rural setting.  This is how she arrived at the theme and the plotline.  The strongest message she chose to illustrate in expressing her theme was the destructive effects of rural homophobia on the main character, himself – Ennis.  (She also chose to illustrate the message of its destructive effects on others with whom the main character would come in contact.  And finally, its destructive effects on society as a whole.)  The principal way she chose to illustrate the destructive effects on her main character was to create a complex, internally-conflicted, homophobic, man controlled by his fears.  Then she showed where the fears came from and the effects they had on him.  This is why going back to Ennis’ fears is so relevant so often.  It’s the driving force of the theme of the story.

But, back to symbolism, metaphor, etc…

… and that anything not connected to that fear is merely subtext.

Again, I’m sorry if I implied this.  There is text, subtext, and metaphor -- three separate entities in the film that we can analyze separately or in tandem.  For example, Text: “Too early in the summer to be sick of beans.”  Subtext: “You’re falling in love, ain’t ya?”  Methaphor:  Ennis isn’t sufficiently developed to be considering love in light of his fears.  We can’t do too much arguing about the text.  It’s right there in front of us.  (I know, sometimes people hear some things a little differently, due to extra noises or a head turned from the viewer, etc.)  On the subtext level we can have a lot of disagreement, back and forth, throwing out of ideas.  And as long as they’re tied to the character development, or the scene, or a previous scene – as long as the subtext interpretation doesn’t violate the film itself – they’re all valid and there may be many subtexts all going at once. 

As to the metaphor level, many ideas can come forth.  But here, there has to be a strong reason for a one-time symbolism to stand on its own.  For example, the binoculars can be taken as a symbol of society’s peering eyes.  Only once are they seen in use, peering (for the sake of simplicity of argument, I’m putting Aguirre’s actual two uses of them (watching the boys and later watching Ennis) in one event because the two uses come one right after the other, to do the same basic thing).  But, they’re prominently seen three times and appear differently each time.  One can argue that the binoculars on the wall, in their case, represent a society that has nothing to look at.  Then they’re used.  And it turns out there is something to see.  Then they’re seen on the wall, out of their case, implying once seen, the eyes will always be ready to peer.  Now, some people might like this, some people might not like this.  But, in terms of analysis, it’s a valid analysis.  Someone may come up with another that is equally valid, but could be more far-fetched or more widely seen as more believable.

Other metaphors and symbolism run throughout the film.  If these can be tied together in a thread that doesn’t break down from multiple anomalies that cannot neatly be stitched into the thread, then there is validity from an analysis perspective.  But if they can't, then in an analytical sense, the metaphor is invalid.  This is not to say that another metaphor cannot work.  Just because there are two metaphor possibilities running at once, they are not mutually exclusive.  Each must be judged on its own merits of completeness, accuracy, filmic integrity, and purpose.  For example, one could say that the binoculars symbolize Aguirre’s lack of health insurance because he needs an aide to his vision and they’re always close by him.  Well, this one fails because of lack of purpose to the advancement of the theme of the story.  It also lacks completeness because it fails to take into account how and when they’re used or not used.  It also lacks filmic integrity and accuracy.  When one can find just a couple of significant examples of a prop or a word or an action (etc.) not being able to be neatly stitched into the thread of the metaphor, then the metaphor fails.

… Partly because I think the metaphors and symbols are more scattered and complex and ambiguous and abstract than that -- not all neatly tied together into one grand linear theme.

I agree if what you mean is that there are different metaphors running along in the film that have no relation to each other but always have relation to the film.  But if you’re talking about individual constituents that bear similarity to each other – by time, place, color, use, etc. – then, a metaphor that does tie them all together is better than a metaphor that lets some lie unclaimed.

And partly because for me to put that much weight on Ennis' fear would require me to overhaul my opinion of Ennis' character, and I'm not ready to do that, as you probably surmise from my comments on other threads. I see his fear balanced more evenly with his love, which is what makes the struggle between the two emotions so titanic and lets the plot drag out for two decades, rather than ending pretty abruptly after two months, or at most four years

I cannot disagree with this at all.  This is certainly a valid way of viewing the character.  However, it does mix the theme with the plotline.  And this can be a good thing or it can be a bad thing.  In this story, however, I would probably not say his fears and love are balanced, as much as they are pitted against each other with the fears winning out almost all of the time.

But aren't you kind of co-opting the metaphoric level by saying that any interpretation not connected to Ennis' fear doesn't reach it?

Again, I truly hope I didn’t actually say this because I certainly don’t believe it.

Also, this seems like another example of what I was talking about in my previous post, of making one theory dependent on another theory. IF (your theory that) Timmy's reference to a broken back raise Ennis' suspicions that people know about his activities on Brokeback (which, even by Ennis' standards, is a pretty ridiculous overreaction), THEN (your theory that) pavement in this scene is connected with pavement in two other scenes involving fear. Or is it vise versa? In other words, does A prove B only because B proves A?

Here I think you’re talking about two different levels of interpretation – the subtext and metaphor – in one.  They can’t be discussed that way.  And they are not dependent on each other.  Subtext and metaphor are dependent on consistency across the film and more often than not are each concerned with very different ideas.  Subtext generally relates to plot while metaphor generally relates to theme.  I think this is where there may be some confusion between us – you may be talking about one level and I may think it’s the other or vice versa, or, either or both of us mixed the two.

So maybe someday I'll be slapping my forehead in belated recognition (god knows it wouldn't be the first time!).

We are on the same page after all!  I do this everyday!   

But for now, I'm happy with: Ennis is paving over (symbol of civilization, society) their natural green life together (symbol), wearing a bright-Jack-colored shirt (symbol), working with an overly chatty guy (excessive chattiness -- think of LaShawn! -- always symbolizes a poor substitute  ) who is neither cute nor fun, gazing off into the distance (more symbolic outdoor green) and missing Jack. And wearing something other than a cowboy hat (symbol)!

Absolutely.  I have no problem with this either.  What you have done here is found symbolism in a number of things and strung them together – not into a metaphor, but into a subtext (…and missing Jack.)  Nothing wrong with this at all.  I took the three occurrences of “pavement,” assigned symbolism, and strung the symbols together into a metaphor and not into a subtext.  Neither of us has done anything wrong.  Or as Ennis might say, “Ya both done good.”

Exactly! Because metaphors and symbols allow artists to express things in non-concrete terms, I think they take advantage of that opportunity to be abstract and complicated. Which is why I resist tying them to interpretations that seem tidy and specific.

Again, this is o.k., but it’s only o.k. for the subtext level.  For the metaphor level, “tidy and specific” are, generally, de rigeur.   

No, it couldn't. Because the sheep evokes Earl and danger, not Jack's experiences the previous summer. Also, while a field full of charred sheep would certainly have been an unsettling image, it wouldn't have the archetypical power of a gutted (sacrificial) one.

Exactly!  That is exactly why it should not have been lightning again.  Because the filmmakers intended symbolism and metaphor.  If it was a bunch of sheep killed by lightning, we’d have a single symbol (nature is mad at you for what you’ve done).  Fine.  But by making it a gutted sheep that can be tied to Alma in her sweater, to Earl’s crotch, to danger, AND NOT to Jack’s previous summer job, a metaphor is created.

Spot on!

That would have been a great way to foreshadow Cassie! Ennis could fling his feet into Jack's lap and say, "Tryin to get a footrub, dumbass!"

I never thought of this!  This is great.  Now I almost wish it would have been this way.  But I suppose they gave us a chuckle when he named himself to Cassie as “Ennis … del Mar.”

I'm not sayin blood isn't a significant symbol. Only that its color might not be the important characteristic.

Excellent point that I can certainly go with.  Still, it does fit… and if it fits … you must … *admit?*   


Wow.  This has been quite a ride.  As always, it’s been a distinct pleasure.  I hope I wasn’t too brutally assertive.  But that would probably be better than being ruthlessly unsentimental.   

[serious crayons]

OK, I'm getting confused enough that I can't always tell if the problem is that I disagree with you or simply that I don't get you, ruthlesslyunsentimental. I only have a few more years of education in literary theory (formal and/or autodidactic) than Ennis does, and though I like to think my grammar is better than his I'm sure he's better at castratin calves than I am at flinging around all these terms and concepts.

But when did I ever let ignorance get in the way of stubbornly arguing a point? Maybe if I just try to keep it specific rather than issuing sweeping statements ...

My goodness gracious, I never meant to imply that all of the metaphors and symbols are connected to Ennis’ fears.

OK, sorry. My misunderstanding.

No.  Certain metaphors go back to that as does certain symbolism, but not all.  For example, the metaphor of green=relationship is not about Ennis’ fears.  It’s about the relationship.  For all of their time on Brokeback, green was the color that linked the two of them together, Jack of the blue sky and Ennis of the brown earth.  Now, there may be some instances where a discussion of Ennis’ fears is relevant to how the green=relationship metaphor is stitched into a particular scene in its thread throughout the film; but, not always.

I took the three occurrences of “pavement,” assigned symbolism, and strung the symbols together into a metaphor and not into a subtext.

OK, got it. So I guess the problem I would have is if metaphor is allowed to dictate the subtext to the point where the subtext doesn't make sense. And now I'm wondering if I misunderstood, but this is how I've read some of the things you've said. For example, the tar-spreading scene. Given your explanation of the metaphors -- green=relationship, pavement=fear, and those do make sense -- it logically follows that paving over land that once was green represents fear that's covering up, taming or destroying their relationship. And I have no problem with seeing that metaphor at work and available for us to notice, consciously or un.

But I balk at taking the next step and saying -- and again, maybe I misunderstood you, but this is what I thought you were saying -- that because a fear-over-relationship metaphor is present in the scene, it follows that what happens in that scene is that Timmy's comments cause Ennis to feel fear. To me, that interpretation defies Ennis' behavior, the symbolic evidence in his clothing and my understanding of human nature.

Now if a metaphor can exist as a whole 'nother entity, connected to the larger story but not necessarily intended to shape or inform how we're supposed to interpret the action in the scene itself, I'm fine with that.

  She always responds that it’s not a gay love story, it’s a tragedy.  The theme of Brokeback Mountain is the destructive effects of rural homophobia on society and its people.  The plotline that was used by Proulx to achieve her objective of illustrating her theme is a love story between two young, gay men in a rural setting.

First sentence: But why must the terms mutually exclusive? Third sentence: OK, they're not.

I mean, if they weren't in love it wouldn't be tragic. And if it is tragic, I don't see why it can't be a love story.  My interpretation of Annie's objection to the "gay love story" label is that she feels it misrepresents or oversimplifies it. But I can't see her stepping into this discussion and saying we're oversimplifying (if so, god help me).

The principal way she chose to illustrate the destructive effects on her main character was to create a complex, internally-conflicted, homophobic, man controlled by his fears.

You know, I'm sure I'll regret saying this because you'll probably produce some metaphoric evidence to the contrary. I haven't read the story as often as I've seen the movie, nor as recently. It's quite possible I didn't fully "get it" because I wasn't as affected by the story as the movie. But my impression has always been that Story Ennis isn't nearly as homophobic or internally conflicted as Movie Ennis. He makes a regrettable decision, but on a basis that's more rational and objective and practical -- he saw a man get killed, concluded that living with another man could be dangerous, and wanted to avoid that fate. So to the extent that Story Ennis has fears, they seem far less deep than those held by Movie Ennis.

For example, the binoculars can be taken as a symbol of society’s peering eyes. ... they’re prominently seen three times and appear differently each time.  One can argue that the binoculars on the wall, in their case, represent a society that has nothing to look at.  Then they’re used.  And it turns out there is something to see.  Then they’re seen on the wall, out of their case, implying once seen, the eyes will always be ready to peer.

I like this.

Other metaphors and symbolism run throughout the film.  If these can be tied together in a thread that doesn’t break down from multiple anomalies that cannot neatly be stitched into the thread, then there is validity from an analysis perspective.  But if they can't, then in an analytical sense, the metaphor is invalid.  This is not to say that another metaphor cannot work.  Just because there are two metaphor possibilities running at once, they are not mutually exclusive.  Each must be judged on its own merits of completeness, accuracy, filmic integrity, and purpose.  ...  When one can find just a couple of significant examples of a prop or a word or an action (etc.) not being able to be neatly stitched into the thread of the metaphor, then the metaphor fails.

OK, I think I've always agreed with all this, and hope I didn't sound like I didn't. No wait -- maybe I don't. Come to think of it, I guess I'm not totally convinced that if, for example, blood appears in one scene and means one thing it must always mean the exact same thing, something that can be boiled into a single word or phrase, in every other scene. It also can simply suggest the other thing, remind us of the other thing, create an ambiguous and abstract but amorphous connection between the two things. For instance, I don't think I would say that if the sheep's blood is X, then the blood on Ennis' face must be X and the blood on the shirts must be X and so on. I'm more open to an AX (one interpretation) and a BX (deliberate reminder of previous interpretation but with a different sense, or different twist, that gives it a new meaning) and a CX (ditto). Or even -- in some cases, especially if the objects are different enough -- an X and a Y and a Z (three things that may or may not have symbolic meaning but if so aren't the same ones).

In this story, however, I would probably not say his fears and love are balanced, as much as they are pitted against each other with the fears winning out almost all of the time.

Well, you and I have already pretty well established elsewhere that we have different opinions about this, even at the textual level.

As always, it’s been a distinct pleasure.

Me too.

I hope I wasn’t too brutally assertive.

Not at all. My brain could use some exercise now and then. Besides, what else do I have to do all day except run errands, clean the house, unpack my suitcase from the trip I returned from four f'in days ago, attend to my actual paid employment ...

But that would probably be better than being ruthlessly unsentimental.   

Well (thinking of your take on the love story/tragedy dichotomy) maybe both. 

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

So I guess the problem I would have is if metaphor is allowed to dictate the subtext to the point where the subtext doesn't make sense. And now I'm wondering if I misunderstood, but this is how I've read some of the things you've said.

Sorry.  Again, I may not have been clear.  Text and subtext and metaphor don’t have to have anything at all to do with each other.  They each add their own layer of meaning to given a situation(s).  They don’t have to support each other and they don’t override each other.  They all exist together, sometime mingled, sometimes not.

For example, the tar-spreading scene. Given your explanation of the metaphors -- green=relationship, pavement=fear, and those do make sense -- it logically follows that paving over land that once was green represents fear that's covering up, taming or destroying their relationship. And I have no problem with seeing that metaphor at work and available for us to notice, consciously or un.

Yes, there is misunderstanding here.  Timmy is just blathering on about God knows what … similar to LaShawn … and (here I get myself into trouble) similar to Jack.  So people can see connections there.  Then, a person would be within right to say “Because I see a connection between Timmy’s talking and Jack’s talking, I believe that I am seeing Ennis reminisce about Jack.  No problem.  One can like it or not, agree or not, but it doesn’t make it less true for the one who made the connection.  Then that same person who just described a subtext can decide to see a metaphor at work also.  And the metaphor can be on a completely different line of thought.  And the symbolism that that person sees in Timmy’s talking can have no connection at all to Jack’s talking (the way it DID in the subtext that that same person found).  As long as the metaphor created follows the rules and tools of metaphor construction and analysis, it’s valid.  Even if it says entirely different things from what was said by that same person in the subtext comments.  AND, other people can find other subtexts that are diametrically opposed to the first subtext, and yet the new subtext can be just as valid as all the others.  It’s like the “I swear” discussions.  Everyone sees some different meaning in those two words.  And if they base their own interpretation on elements from the film such as Ennis’ character development or a previous scene (etc.), then the interpretation is valid even if I don’t like it or agree with it.  This would all be different people finding different subtexts in the same text.  All valid, but to each individual, each one has more or less meaning, credibility, etc.

But I balk at taking the next step and saying -- and again, maybe I misunderstood you, but this is what I thought you were saying -- that because a fear-over-relationship metaphor is present in the scene, it follows that what happens in that scene is that Timmy's comments cause Ennis to feel fear. To me, that interpretation defies Ennis' behavior, the symbolic evidence in his clothing and my understanding of human nature.

I think I see the confusion here.  I’ll try if I can to fix it.

I see “pavement” being used symbolically to represent Ennis being out in the world, away from the seeming privacy of Brokeback Mountain.  Because of the privacy of BBM, Ennis was able to overcome his fear, there, at that time.  But, out in the world, on the pavement, Ennis cannot overcome his fear.  I think we agree on the previous two sentences.  Now, because there are three overt uses of “pavement” in the film, I look to see if they are connected in some way.  What happened in each scene?  The most obvious one is Ennis’ question to Jack about being out on the pavement and people knowing.  I see his fear -- people knowing and that leading to something bad – just as something bad happened to Earl.  Ennis fears that if people know, someone may do something untoward.  This scene was immediately preceded by Ennis falling to the pavement and getting beat up.  Now, he was NOT getting beat up because the man found out about Ennis.  But, in the very preceding scene to that, Alma outed Ennis.  She found out.  His fear is of people finding out and the consequences thereof.  When Alma found out he was afraid, he reacted as always, with violence.  In the beat up scene, he is still feeling these two emotions.  He’s still processing what happened with him and Alma and the fear and anger that go with it.  So when the driver yelled “asshole,” Ennis was sent over the top and started the fight.  But Ennis, the good fighter (biker scene) was beaten to the pavement.  In both the suspicious mind and the beat up scene, I, the viewer, see the link between his fear of being found out and the consequences thereof.  So, when Ennis says “pavement” in the suspicious mind scene, it links, for the viewer, to the previous scene where he was beaten to the pavement, and to the previous scene where he was found out.  Now, there is one more scene with apparent overt pavement.  The tarring scene.  In this scene, we ask whether the same elements are present to use Ennis’ fear to link to the other two scenes.  Here, Ennis is on the pavement and Timmy evokes an image of Brokeback, the place where his fears were overcome for that time and place.  It reinforces the idea that out on the pavement is NOT the same as up on the mountain, it’s not safe and secure from Ennis’ fears.  Here’s what Timmy says: “My old lady’s tryin’ to get me to quit this job.  She says I’m getting’ too old to be breakin’ my back shovelin’ asphalt.  I told her strong backs and weak minds runs in the family.  She didn’t think that was too funny.”  That’s the text.  Subtext: I may have a weak mind, but on the pavement I am strong and can avoid breaking my back.  (And there can rightly be 100 more subtexts in what he says.)  Symbolically: I have fear, but on the pavement I am strong and can avoid the consequences of my fear just as I did on Brokeback.  These provide the necessary link to the larger metaphor.  And at the same time, another symbolism could be at work and could (but wouldn’t necessarily have to) link to the larger metaphor I stated, or to another metaphor entirely.

The point behind metaphor is to cause a recurring symbolism to evoke an experience in the viewer (for film; reader for books).  The experience could be a feeling or a foreshadowing or any of a number of other experiential reactions.  Because the first part of the metaphor (the tarring scene) sets up an Ennis that can overcome his fears out on the pavement, and because the second (the beat up) shows an Ennis who cannot, and because the third (the suspicious mind scene) shows an Ennis who is questioning his first assumption based on its fallacy as shown in the second, the metaphor of the pavement becomes “Ennis cannot escape his fear of being found out and his fear of the consequences simply by going out on the pavement and ignoring them.  He must overcome his fears as he did on Brokeback Mountain in order to attain the same kind of harmonic balance in his life.”  And then this symbolic metaphor translates into a moral for the viewer to carry away from the film: “One cannot escape one’s fears, one must overcome them, in order to find harmony in one’s life.”

Now if a metaphor can exist as a whole 'nother entity, connected to the larger story but not necessarily intended to shape or inform how we're supposed to interpret the action in the scene itself, I'm fine with that.

Yes!  Exactly.  Metaphor is not supposed to interpret a scene or a line of dialogue.  That’s what subtext is for.  Metaphor is to lead to a larger, grander concept … sometimes to a moral.  This is what Aesop did in all of his fables -- symbolism used to create metaphor used to create a moral.

Another example is the beans and soup metaphor.  Metaphors for the life that Jack wants versus the life he’s allowed.  Add in the comment by the Basque and the metaphor gives us a moral: “Don’t act until you’re ready to act and to accept the consequences of your actions.”  (As an aside, this is why I think that in the cast of minor characters the Basque is second only to Cassie.  Well, Uncle Harold’s societal implication is also huge, but I just like the Basque and Cassie more, and that’s OK.)

I mean, if they weren't in love it wouldn't be tragic. And if it is tragic, I don't see why it can't be a love story.  My interpretation of Annie's objection to the "gay love story" label is that she feels it misrepresents or oversimplifies it. But I can't see her stepping into this discussion and saying we're oversimplifying (if so, god help me).

Yes about all the Annie stuff.  As to the “I don’t see why…”  Because a story is stuck into a particular genre based on its theme, not on its plotline.  Certainly, one can mix them to give a larger picture of what to expect to see in the product as a whole.  To simply call it a love story or a gay love story ignores the theme.  The theme is a tragic one so to call it a tragedy or a tragic love story or a tragic gay love story would all work.

I haven't read the story as often as I've seen the movie, nor as recently. It's quite possible I didn't fully "get it" because I wasn't as affected by the story as the movie. But my impression has always been that Story Ennis isn't nearly as homophobic or internally conflicted as Movie Ennis. He makes a regrettable decision, but on a basis that's more rational and objective and practical -- he saw a man get killed, concluded that living with another man could be dangerous, and wanted to avoid that fate. So to the extent that Story Ennis has fears, they seem far less deep than those held by Movie Ennis.

Absolutely no argument from me here at all.  I agree totally with every word.  This is why I don’t like it when people try to use the story to explain the film.  Completely different characters.  The part I agree most strongly with is “…because I wasn't as affected by the story as the movie.”  The story on its own, without the film, is hardly what I would call “moving.”  For me, it only becomes moving when I add the film to the story.

I like this.

About the binoculars – me too.  And this is one of the few metaphors that I feel the author did a really good job with in the story.  Lee carried it over to the film and I believe he did it effectively.

…blood appears in one scene and means one thing it must always mean the exact same thing, something that can be boiled into a single word or phrase, in every other scene.

No.  He’s an example.  Jack peeled a potato.  THERE it can be taken symbolically as Jack peeling away a layer of himself in preparation for what is to come.  Now, let’s say we saw Lureen peeling a potato before Thanksgiving dinner and Jack walked in the room and she ran to him, threw her arms around him, and said “Honey, I’ve been acting like a rabbit what with paying too much attention to business, now I’m going to concentrate on you.”  This obviously doesn’t have the same symbolism of peeling a potato=Jack peeling a layer away.  Taken together, these could symbolically mean that when one peels a potato, one is peeling back a layer from him- or herself.  Now, let’s say Ennis and Cassie meet up in Mel’s diner and Mel is in the kitchen peeling a potato and the film makes a point of showing this to us, and Ennis and Cassie are discussing what they can do to make themselves more available to each other.  Here, the symbolism of peeling a potato=peeling away a layer from oneself doesn’t apply.  But putting all three together, one can construct a metaphor that when a potato is peeled it’s evocative of a layer being peeled away to allow change.  So if we then see Mrs. Twist peeling a potato just before she puts her hand of compassion on Ennis’ shoulder and nudges him up to Jack’s room, we can expect to see a layer of Ennis being peeled away to allow for a change.

It also can simply suggest the other thing, remind us of the other thing, create an ambiguous and abstract but amorphous connection between the two things. For instance, I don't think I would say that if the sheep's blood is X, then the blood on Ennis' face must be X and the blood on the shirts must be X and so on. I'm more open to an AX (one interpretation) and a BX (deliberate reminder of previous interpretation but with a different sense, or different twist, that gives it a new meaning) and a CX (ditto). Or even -- in some cases, especially if the objects are different enough -- an X and a Y and a Z (three things that may or may not have symbolic meaning but if so aren't the same ones).

Yes.  Absolutely.  And then by stringing them together, one can find a grander metaphor that they all fit into and that doesn’t necessarily define in concrete terms any one or all of the examples, but gives us, instead, a larger scheme of things.  (Which can usually be translated into a moral.)

Well, you and I have already pretty well established elsewhere that we have different opinions about this, even at the textual level.

Tell ya what… I’ll still stick with “In this story, however, I would probably not say his fears and love are balanced, as much as they are pitted against each other …” and I’ll change the ending to “with the fears winning out MOST of the time.”  (Instead of “almost all of the time.”)  Better?



I know I’ve written a lot (again) yet I am suffused with a sense of pleasure because, after all, Jack is still a potato.

[serious crayons]

Again, I may not have been clear.  Text and subtext and metaphor don’t have to have anything at all to do with each other ...  Metaphor is not supposed to interpret a scene or a line of dialogue.

This is from a June 28 post of yours, discussing the importance of Ennis' fear:

(This is also the tie-in to the scene where he's raking tar -- pavement -- and the older man says "break" and "back."  Ennis looks off into the distance.  Not wistfully remembering Jack (that may be a small part of it), but having a slight paranoia attack about someone mentioning that place where things seemed so normal, but wouldn't be to the guy raking next to him.)

Can you see why I understood you to be using a metaphor involving fear to interpret the subtext of this scene? But I can't agree with this metaphor-based analysis. I think Ennis IS wistfully remembering Jack. I don't think he's having a paranoia attack. I'm perfectly willing to agree that the pavement metaphor suggests an overarching theme, and that certainly Ennis does in general feel paranoia, but not that it's a key to interpreting this scene.

Tell you what. Aside from that issue, I think I understand and agree with most of what you're saying about how metaphors and symbols and subtexts work.

I don't agree with all of your specific examples, for a variety of reasons. In some case, we have different opinions about the story and characters. In some cases, I have a different idea of what I think something -- red, for example -- symbolizes. In some cases, it seems to me you're stretching too far to get something to fit, and though I can't say for sure that I might not feel the same way you do after I've seen the movie 135 more times, it doesn't ring true to me now. In some cases -- much as I hate to admit it -- it's remotely, distantly, faintly possible you're right and I'm wrong.  About some particular individual things, I mean.

I never like to stop arguing until I've run the subject totally into the ground and everybody is completely sick of it. But I to do that now, I have to get back to arguing about concrete examples rather than with this intense literary theory. I just don't have the background for it. I was a journalism major. So when you say, "X means Y," and I say, "Really? Oh, I think X means Z" and you say, "No, Z is subtext, Y is metaphor," well, I don't really have the tools to dispute that. Do I not get it because I can't tell the difference between metaphor and subtext? Or might I actually be right but just not be able to support my argument authoritatively? When the discussion becomes that abstract, I can't tell. Let's just say I can only debate stuff like this at an undergraduate level.

Which, of course, is not the same as saying I'm wrong.

Well, Uncle Harold’s societal implication is also huge ...

*Sigh.* OK, I'll bite. 

The theme is a tragic one so to call it a tragedy or a tragic love story or a tragic gay love story would all work.

OK, I can do that.

Jack peeled a potato.  THERE it can be taken symbolically as Jack peeling away a layer of himself in preparation for what is to come.

But since this is the only potato, what if I don't agree with this interpretation? What if I have a whole different one, or none at all?

I’ll change the ending to “with the fears winning out MOST of the time.”  (Instead of “almost all of the time.”)  Better?

Well ... um ... 

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

This is from a June 28 post of yours, discussing the importance of Ennis' fear … Can you see why I understood you to be using a metaphor involving fear to interpret the subtext of this scene?

Um, yes… but, I’m sorry if this sounds rather direct… I can understand it if you’re mixing metaphor and subtext.  I went back and read the entire post to get the context straight in my mind.  You didn’t take or twist it out of context or anything, so I’m not saying that, it’s just that I needed the full context.  In that post, I was responding to a question from someone else about how I see Ennis’ paranoia increasing over time in the film – that while in the beginning he may have just had a fear in him, by the “move to Texas” scene, Ennis’ fear has magnified into paranoia.  In that post, I was looking at the tar raking scene on a subtext level, not on a metaphor level.

But I can't agree with this metaphor-based analysis. I think Ennis IS wistfully remembering Jack. I don't think he's having a paranoia attack. I'm perfectly willing to agree that the pavement metaphor suggests an overarching theme, and that certainly Ennis does in general feel paranoia, but not that it's a key to interpreting this scene.

The analysis in the other post was not a metaphorical one, it dealt with subtext.  So when you say that Ennis is wistfully remembering Jack, I have no problem with that.  I think that is a very valid subtext to what we are seeing and I agree, I see that too.  But another subtext that I see is a very slight paranoia evoked in Ennis (probably on a subconscious level) by the man’s evoking an image of Brokeback.  We both seem to agree that Timmy’s comments evoked an image of Brokeback for Ennis.  And you think that this causes wistful remembrance – and I agree – but I also see the very start of paranoia.  So when I responded to the other questioner’s question about magnifying fear and paranoia, I brought up the tar raking scene as an example of a seed of paranoia being started in Ennis that grows with his various interactions with “society” – as opposed to with his immediate family or Jack.


When you say:

I'm perfectly willing to agree that the pavement metaphor suggests an overarching theme, and that certainly Ennis does in general feel paranoia, but not that it's a key to interpreting this scene.

I am glad to see your initial comment about the pavement metaphor and the general feeling of paranoia, then, I am glad to also see your final phrase about key to interpretation – because you are right.  What’s happening in the tar scene fits into the pavement metaphor AND into the subtext analysis, but even though the metaphor and the subtext stem from the same thing (what happens in the tar scene), the metaphor and the subtext have nothing to do with each other.  Neither is trying to nor is either supposed to explain the other.  They’re separate beasts.

So, the metaphor concerning pavement is not intended to interpret a scene, or to be key to a scene, but the subtexts are.  The two subtexts that we came up with in the tar scene (wistful and paranoia) are supposed to help us interpret the scene.  That’s what’s great about subtext.  You can see one, I can see another, or we can both see one and not the other, or we can both see both, and someone else may come along with another one that I like and you don’t or… the cycle keeps going on.  The subtexts that we come up with help to interpret a scene and for each scene each of us probably considers a particular subtext to be key.  This is highly subjective stuff. 

But as far as a metaphor goes, its overarching quality is not supposed to interpret a scene.  Metaphors help us to focus our thinking by associations of similar objects or lines or visuals (etc.) and help us to explain a larger, overarching concept in the film, rather than just a particular scene (or object, or line, or visual).  For example, the wind=Jack metaphor (I picked that one because it seems highly agreeable to many people) helps us to understand the more lofty, wind-swept, if you will, free-spirited, more outgoing nature of Jack.  It helps us to see the dissimilarity in Ennis.  But it doesn’t explain a scene.  For example, when Jack walked into Aguirre’s trailer the second time, the fan blew (wind) and Aguirre said “Look what the wind blew in” instead of the customary “Look what the cat dragged in.”  Here, Jack=wind is not key to interpreting the scene itself.  The scene is about Aguirre not hiring Jack back again and to let Jack know that their activities were not so private and to show that Jack is looking for Ennis.  This is the textual level.  But we all know there’s more to it than that.  On the subtext level, Aguirre won’t hire Jack again because… one subtext says poor job performance … another subtext says because Aguirre’s homophobia is showing.  Each is just fine, and both can be just fine too.  And if we'd put this into one of those “fun questionnaires,” we’d probably get a lot more subtexts that people come up with.

On a metaphor level, one can see symbolism in Aguirre’s binoculars, out of the case, coupled with his remarks, and take it as symbolism for society seeing what they did and judging them for it.  This can then be reinforced by the Aguirre ride up scene.  Suddenly an overarching metaphor takes shape.  And a moral may (but doesn’t have to) appear.  One could find the following moral: Don’t put faith in your actions being secret.  Now, the wind=Jack metaphor is not key to understanding the scene, but the scene helps give weight to the wind=Jack metaphor in that the fan blew, Aguirre said “wind” and Jack (who, according to the metaphor is lofty and free-spirited) gives a look that may register umbrage at Aguirre’s judgment of Jack and Ennis (I also see some embarrassment and some shame in being found out by Aguirre).  But how does this affect the lofty, free-spirited Jack?  I dunno.  He doesn’t get violent (as Ennis would).  He doesn’t argue (as Ennis would).  He doesn’t run away (as Ennis would).  He just leaves and after an amount of time probably shrugs it off… Fuck Aguirre!  This reinforces the wind=Jack metaphor because someone free-spirited could shrug it off; and, it reinforces the Ennis=ground metaphor by showing the dissimilarities that exist between Jack and Ennis when we consider how Ennis might have reacted in that trailer.

In some cases, I have a different idea of what I think something -- red, for example -- symbolizes. In some cases, it seems to me you're stretching too far to get something to fit, and though I can't say for sure that I might not feel the same way you do after I've seen the movie 135 more times, it doesn't ring true to me now. In some cases -- much as I hate to admit it -- it's remotely, distantly, faintly possible you're right and I'm wrong.  About some particular individual things, I mean.

And all of this is OK.  As long as when we find the subtext that works for each of us we pull it out of our own subjective selves.  And, as long as when we each find the metaphors and symbolism that work for us, we follow the rules and tools of metaphor construction and analysis to assure validity.

I never like to stop arguing until I've run the subject totally into the ground and everybody is completely sick of it.

Me too.  Honestly, wouldn’t it be a lot more fun to do this sitting around a campfire eating beans and drinking whiskey?  Ah, takes me back to my childhood…

So when you say, "X means Y," and I say, "Really? Oh, I think X means Z" and you say, "No, Z is subtext, Y is metaphor," well, I don't really have the tools to dispute that. Do I not get it because I can't tell the difference between metaphor and subtext? Or might I actually be right but just not be able to support my argument authoritatively? When the discussion becomes that abstract, I can't tell. Let's just say I can only debate stuff like this at an undergraduate level.

Yes.  I’m right and you’re wrong.  NO!  I’m just kidding!   

If I say X means Y and you say X means Z, they very probably each and both could be true.  Or, one could be false if the levels of analysis are getting mixed up – which I do think has happened occasionally.  I know that I get confused when I think it appears someone is talking on one level and then later it seems like the other level.

You debate these things as well as Lureen rounds those posts on her faithful steed.  And she won top prize that day!  (I love that picture of Jack and Lureen with their certificates.  Lureen looks like “Oh, well, I won again,” and Jack looks like “What the hell am I doin’ here?”)

*Sigh.* OK, I'll bite. 

(Uncle Harold)  Tell you what… I’ll write a bit about this later.  It’s just a little something I thought of once and it seems to work.  I don’t know about you, but it sure jumped out at me that old, sick Uncle Harold made such an interesting appearance.  Why couldn’t Aguirre just have rode up there to do a routine check?  Why did the filmmakers choose to include Uncle Harold?

But since this is the only potato, what if I don't agree with this interpretation? What if I have a whole different one, or none at all?

Well, remember that it’s not the potato that’s important to the metaphor.  It’s the knives.  And what’s done with them, and by whom, and when, and what is going on in that scene, and before, and after, etc.  Again, in that particular scene we see text: Ennis is bathing, Jack is peeling a potato and not looking at Ennis.  And there’s subtext: Ennis is giving a show, Jack couldn’t care less about the damn potato… he wants to look!  (And all kinds of other subtexts that people can come up with.)  And on the symbolic level, it matters what Jack is peeling because of Ennis’ question to the Basque and the Basque’s response.  To fill out the metaphor, does it fit with the other instances of knives?  If so, objective validity.  If you have a different symbolic representation, no problem.  But if you try to string it into an entire metaphor of other – similar – objects or lines (etc.), then it has to fit due to its presence, its use, its common meaning, the scene, the previous scene, etc.


Finally, although I may have appeared to diminish the significance of the potato, I’ll stand out on the pavement and shout until my dying day… Jack is still a potato!

[serious crayons]

In that post, I was looking at the tar raking scene on a subtext level, not on a metaphor level. ... So, the metaphor concerning pavement is not intended to interpret a scene

OK. I must have misunderstood again. Maybe because I can't think of anything but the pavement metaphor that would signal paranoia in that scene. But it's true, everyone has a right to his or her own opinion, even if it's wrong different from mine. 

You debate these things as well as Lureen rounds those posts on her faithful steed.  And she won top prize that day!

Yee f'n haw. I'll get me one of them red-and-white shirts to wear at my computer. No, wait -- would that seal my doom?

(Uncle Harold) I don’t know about you, but it sure jumped out at me that old, sick Uncle Harold made such an interesting appearance.  Why couldn’t Aguirre just have rode up there to do a routine check?  Why did the filmmakers choose to include Uncle Harold?

Right. I have an idea or two of my own about Uncle Harold. I don't know that I would describe mine as having huge societal implications, though, so I eagerly look forward to seeing what you write.

 

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Yee f'n haw. I'll get me one of them red-and-white shirts to wear at my computer. No, wait -- would that seal my doom?

Yes!  Don't wear red and white together for gosh sakes.  Wear a blue shirt instead.  Red and white together would surely spell trouble, but you can ward it off by peeling potatoes whilst wearing it.  Trouble with this is you can't look left or right, you just gotta keep peeling them potatoes. 

Right. I have an idea or two of my own about Uncle Harold. I don't know that I would describe mine as having huge societal implications, though, ...

Oops.  Maybe I should have said something more like, my view of him is a societal view... or sumpin' like that.  I dunno, maybe not.  Anyway, try if I can to get around to it soon.

[Ellemeno]

? Jack is still a potato!

Is that why Ennis sometimes calls him Spud, as in "Somethin' I've been meaning to tell ya, Spud?"

I like the green theory, not convinced by the red & white theory, or the orange and yellow.  I will watch with an eye for those colors.  LOVE the pavement theory.   Love new ideas.  Thanks!

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Is that why Ennis sometimes calls him Spud, as in "Somethin' I've been meaning to tell ya, Spud?"

Best one I've heard yet!  I'm LingMAO!  Thanks!                 

I like the green theory, not convinced by the red & white theory, or the orange and yellow.  I will watch with an eye for those colors.  LOVE the pavement theory.   Love new ideas.  Thanks!

I'm here to please...

[Meryl]

bump

[CarlaMom2]

You guys have some great ideas pointed out here.  Thanks for the interesting insight!

[Meryl]

Carla, you're clocking new threads like a champ!  You go, girl! 

[CarlaMom2]

Thanks for noticing me Meryl!  My posts are nowhere near as deep as everyone else, but I do enjoy being a part of BetterMost