Author Topic: Ennis/Jack/both; book/movie/both?  (Read 13582 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Ennis/Jack/both; book/movie/both?
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2006, 08:29:21 am »
Hmm ... Well, all I can say, Del, is that you and I react to the movie and/or story very differently.

Why did Jack put up with that jerk for 20 f'in years?

For those of us who have dated 'Ennis' types, it's extremely understandable why Jack stayed with him for so long.  Plus, he only saw him 2-3 times a year and if you love someone, you know why they are the way they are and you deal with it because you love them.  Jack knew why Ennis acted the way he did.  That didn't make how Ennis acted good or right or less selfish. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 08:34:31 am by delalluvia »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Ennis/Jack/both; book/movie/both?
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2006, 09:17:49 am »
Thanks for the elaboration, Del (above posts).

I still disagree that Annie Proulx's treatment of Ennis's relationship with the girls indicates that he's a poorer father in the story than in the movie, but I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate.

And I agree that everything about the relationship with Jack always seems to be on Ennis's terms.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis/Jack/both; book/movie/both?
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2006, 11:38:53 am »
For those of us who have dated 'Ennis' types, it's extremely understandable why Jack stayed with him for so long.  Plus, he only saw him 2-3 times a year and if you love someone, you know why they are the way they are and you deal with it because you love them.  Jack knew why Ennis acted the way he did.  That didn't make how Ennis acted good or right or less selfish. 

Yeah, Del, I know people who've dated selfish people. And whenever I have talked to them about it, I have said (or at least thought): Forget about that guy (or gal), for god's sake. Get rid of him. He's bad news. And I have dated people like that, too, and that's pretty much what my friends have hinted or said outright (quite correctly) to me. To be honest, I lose a tiny bit of respect for the person -- whether myself or someone else -- who stays in one of those relationships for a long time when it's obvious it's just making them miserable.  Don't get me wrong, having been in that situation myself, I understand why people do it, despite the pain. But watching from the outside, frankly, gets tiresome. I'm not rooting for the couple to get together and work things out and live happily ever after. I'm assuming that's not possible. So I'm rooting for my friend to dump the other person.

The thing is, that's not how I respond to Jack's and Ennis' relationship at all. I can't begin tell you how much the opposite of that I feel. Otherwise, you can bet I wouldn't have been hanging around on these boards for five minutes, let alone six months.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Ennis/Jack/both; book/movie/both?
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2006, 07:36:39 pm »
Yeah, Del, I know people who've dated selfish people. And whenever I have talked to them about it, I have said (or at least thought): Forget about that guy (or gal), for god's sake. Get rid of him. He's bad news. And I have dated people like that, too, and that's pretty much what my friends have hinted or said outright (quite correctly) to me. To be honest, I lose a tiny bit of respect for the person -- whether myself or someone else -- who stays in one of those relationships for a long time when it's obvious it's just making them miserable.  Don't get me wrong, having been in that situation myself, I understand why people do it, despite the pain. But watching from the outside, frankly, gets tiresome. I'm not rooting for the couple to get together and work things out and live happily ever after. I'm assuming that's not possible. So I'm rooting for my friend to dump the other person.

The thing is, that's not how I respond to Jack's and Ennis' relationship at all. I can't begin tell you how much the opposite of that I feel. Otherwise, you can bet I wouldn't have been hanging around on these boards for five minutes, let alone six months.

Dunno what to tell you kat, the complexity of their relationship and the multi-layered characters are reasons I HAVE been hanging around.  The heartbreak of loving a man who is so chained by fear that he's selfish in his actions and desires, but you still love him because you know how conflicted he is, how it pains him, makes his life pure anguish at times, how alone he feels.  Your friends/family don't understand because they don't know him like you do.  So you hang on, trying to help, living with hope that he will see the light, come out of his closet, loosen his chains...but in the meantime, does that change how Ennis treats Jack or his family or heck, Cassie?

No.  It doesn't change how Ennis makes those people feel even when they know why he does what he does.  And that's destructive to their self-esteem as well and finally, unless the man is interested in coming out, freeing himself, the hope you/Jack/Cassie/Alma might have slowly dies.

The story is a tragedy all the way around.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 01:42:19 pm by delalluvia »

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Ennis/Jack/both; book/movie/both?
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2006, 07:21:23 pm »
In the past I prefered a book to a movie, but lately I enjoy reading the book and then seeing the movie.

Although quite often I find myself feeling disappointed by the movie after reading the book first.

 ???

And I most definately prefer Ennis to Jack. :D

But Jack is cute too! ;)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis/Jack/both; book/movie/both?
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2006, 08:09:14 pm »
Dunno what to tell you kat, the complexity of their relationship and the multi-layered characters are reasons I HAVE been hanging around.  The heartbreak of loving a man who is so chained by fear that he's selfish in his actions and desires, but you still love him because you know how conflicted he is, how it pains him, makes his life pure anguish at times, how alone he feels.  Your friends/family don't understand because they don't know him like you do.  So you hang on, trying to help, living with hope that he will see the light, come out of his closet, loosen his chains...but in the meantime, does that change how Ennis treats Jack or his family or heck, Cassie?

I totally agree with you, Del, about the complexity and multi-layered characters. Those are big reasons for me, too. And I agree with your assessment of what a frustrating relationship feels like from the inside. But what grabs me most about the movie is how much I care about Jack and Ennis as a couple, how powerfully moving their story is, how intensely I long for them to be together, how sad I feel for both.

As a viewer, I'm seeing their relationship from the outside, as friends and family do. Yet, unlike with my "real-life" friends in bad relationships, I'm not urging Jack to dump the guy and move on. I'm desperately wishing Jack will hang in there, Ennis will come around, and it will work out for them. Even without Ennis coming around (or out), what they had together during those 20 years seems beautiful to me.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 02:21:08 am by latjoreme »

Offline Amber

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Re: Ennis/Jack/both; book/movie/both?
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2006, 12:38:45 am »
I went straight down the middle ... I like the book and movie equally as well as Jack and Ennis equally.

I think the book and the movie offer me different things.  The movie brings the story to life - I can see and hear the people and witness their story first hand.  As for the book, it provides more detail in some areas but ultimately what I like most about it is how they incorporate Ennis's dreams about Jack.  While I still cry reading the story, for some reason knowing that Ennis dreams about Jack uplifts me a little.

As for the boys.  Each are attractive in different ways ... Jack is the easy choice because of those drop dead gorgeous eyes, but then Ennis has that sexy little smirk and "tough guy" aspect that I adore as well.  Personality wise I feel connected to both of them because I can see a little of myself in each character.  That definitely makes it hard to pick.
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Offline Rayn

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Re: Ennis/Jack/both; book/movie/both?
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2006, 11:01:18 am »
I can't really say I prefer one man over the other unless you're talkin' just looks, 'cause there's so much more than looks to Ennis and Jack.  I like them equally, but prefer Ennis' look, however if asked whose character I'd like or "go for", It'd be Jack's.  He is so easy going and sweet and in touch with his feelings.  I would snap a guy like that up in a heartbeat!  Ennis has a good character too, loyal and tough and kind too, but there were too many problems that stood in the way of a good relationship with him... but then, we are looking at a fiction, a different time, place and set of lives, so I can't be too hard on Ennis, the character.  I think to ask "which do you prefer", Ennis or Jack, is too simplistic for me really and the movie and the book are two different forms of art. They are both great and stand on their own as remarkable achievements.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 11:46:39 am by Rayn »

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Ennis/Jack/both; book/movie/both?
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2006, 11:12:24 am »
As for the boys.  Each are attractive in different ways ... Jack is the easy choice because of those drop dead gorgeous eyes, but then Ennis has that sexy little smirk and "tough guy" aspect that I adore as well.  Personality wise I feel connected to both of them because I can see a little of myself in each character.  That definitely makes it hard to pick.

I agree, Amber.  I think the genius of the characterizations, in the story and in the movie, is that they are so subtle and layered that we can all see bits of ourselves in both of them.  They are not caricatures, they are not stereotypes, they are not black and white or cut and dried in any way shape or form - they are fully realized human beings, flaws and all.  I think our loving them and this movie so much in spite of everything is maybe the thing that distinguishes us from those who feel little to nothing for them or this movie after watching it.  We want to connect to the characters we see on the screen and read on the page in a very real and intimate way - we want to discover a part of ourselves we hadn't thought about or faced before by watching movies and reading stories.  Those other people just want to escape from themselves.
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Ennis/Jack/both; book/movie/both?
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2006, 11:52:40 pm »
I want to defend the complexity of the story for a bit here. I would say that the movie brings the story to life, and that it fills in some of the gaps in a very spare story. But less complex? I would say that, for something so short, the story has a lot of complexity packed into it.

I agree that Jack's character is much more likeable without the implication that he'd been lying to Ennis about his relationships with other guys. Movie-Jack is a great deal more romantic of a character than story-Jack. Ennis, too, is more likeable, though I think that's as much because Heath Ledger just has such an amazing smile, so you can see the love trying to peek out from behind all of Ennis's inner conflicts.

But I think the story characters are complex as well. Jack is intriguing, because for most of the story I got the impression of him having sex with other guys, lying about that to Ennis, shooting eagles, so forth and so on. And then at the end the revelations start... the flashback to the dozy embrace, the twelve-hundred-mile drive for nothing, wanting his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain, and then to drive it all home, the pair of shirts. And suddenly I wanted to go back and try to figure out if there were any hints about the nature of this guy further back, to somehow reconcile the guy who told his father that Ennis was going to move up there and help lick the ranch into shape with the guy who claims not to have had sex with other men. I never quite managed to do it, and the movie gives us a different character, but still... I think the Jack of the story is a complex character in his own right.

And as for Ennis in the story... well, I read the story as mostly being Ennis's point of view (though there are some brief moments when we learn about Alma's or Jack's thoughts). And the strange contrasts in the language, the beautiful language used to describe the mountains and the coarse language used to talk about the men, seem to be part of the development of the character. It's as if Ennis has locked away the mushy and romantic parts of himself, and so we learn about this very romantic story in very unemotional language. And to me, that contrast, between the things going on in the story and the language used to describe them, is very powerful. (Also a fascinating literary technique; I learned about the story from a friend who thinks a lot about how writers use language for particular effects, and it seemed to me that the story illustrated a lot of the things she had been trying to explain to me.) So anyway, for me it was the very unemotional nature of the story that convinced me that Ennis's conflict was primarily internal, even if he spoke mostly about fears of physical attacks.*

(An additional note, about the looks of the guys. I don't generally picture characters when I read books, even if the author goes to great lengths to provide a physical description of them. And added to that, I didn't read the story in the New Yorker... I read it on-line back in October, and the web page had a promo picture of Heath and Jake playing Ennis and Jack. The guys weren't labeled, so I went through a couple readings of the story actually thinking that Heath was playing Jack and Jake was playing Ennis... Heath's got curlier hair in the pictures, and in the picture I had seen, Jake looked particularly lanky. I got the pair of them sorted out very quickly, when I went searching for more info about the movie. But I never pictured Jack with buck teeth... I always pictured both men as attractive, when I pictured them at all. ;D )

* (Yeah, I know, Annie Proulx is mean to her characters in general, and doesn't seem interested in letting the reader empathize with them. Story-Ennis and story-Jack are about the most sympathetic of her characters that I've read. And Ang Lee tends to be gentler, to let the reader care about even very strange or unpleasant people, like the characters in The Ice Storm, for instance. So some of those differences between the artists come out in the book versus the movie, I guess. But I still saw a core of characters I could care about in the story, even if lots of other people didn't see them.)
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