Is freedom really all that "free"??

[maggiesmommy GayLee]

I spent alot of time today with music playing in the background while i cooked and played hostess to my family and friends as we celebrated the 4th of July holiday.
For those of you outside of the USA, we celebrate the 4th oh July as our independence day.  As i listened to the words of the patriotic songs, and kept hearing the songs about freedom, i had to wonder why this freedom and equality isn't for ALL of our citizens....this year has been SO enlightening for me...since BBM, i have changed right to the core, and i see things SO differently!! a year ago, i didn't go down this road at all, but this year, after Jimmy and BBM, i just couldn't get it out of mind that all the singing, and prattling on and on about our freedoms, our ~"Life, Liberty and the persuit of Happiness" stuff...and wondered what we are so proud of when we deny the basic rights of our citizens in the Gay/Lesbian community.  If it is your persuit of happiness that leads you to the person you love, and making a life with that person is what makes you happy and complete, what right does this country or your state have to deny you that basic human right??  why can't you marry, and have full access the the benefits that marriage affords straight couples?? how can we parade freedom and equality in front of the world, and not practice what we preach...oh, i get it, freedom to live ones life with the dignity afforded straight couples is denied G/L couples because this "christian" country chooses to judge and look down on and "manage" people that they consider  different than they are....how fair is that?? If you have the power, and our government does, you can mete out your judgement without ever being called on it...i mean, you just can't stop paying your taxes...there is no recourse..i am just so thourghly disgusted this year, and have never dealt with these feelings before, but i have a great deal of empathy, and i truly feel your frustration and anger and sadness at what you suffer...i really feel it, and i heard someone say recently that they didn't like Gay people because they were so pissy and bitter acting....(lumping ALL G/L people, as is common with the unenlightened) i said wouldn't YOU be if you had your government, who you support with your tax dollars, denying you the most basic of human needs, loving companionship?? the right to be married and the benefits that come with that status.  That you are denied children when you could give them a loving home with two loving  partners, but they are kept in foster care, because you are not considered "normal or good"...I don't know if it made an impact on her, but i sure had to say it...and it felt damned good...
"Ole Brokeback got us good", just goes on and on impacting EVERY facet of my life, and every day is another learning experience, because i have my "Brokeback eyes" on now...and i can see SO MUCH MORE!!   than i ever did before....so much, and it sickens me...
all i can say is I'm sorry, i wish it wasn't this way, and if nothing else, you have another vote for the politicians who care about these issues, and one more from everyone else who has been changed for the better by BBM. 
Just had to say.....
here's to one day, having a REAL independence day...with liberty and JUSTICE, for ALL....so be it
Gay Lee
   

[twistedude]

Amen. And women, too...

[ednbarby]

I hear you, G.  I have a really hard time getting into all the flag waving and Sousa marches and so forth, myself.  Really, all that started with the 2000 election for me, and has just continued to slide at warp speed downhill from there.  Took my son to see the fireworks for his first time last night.  He enjoyed them, so I enjoyed them to that extent.  But beyond that, I didn't feel a thing.  Not even sadness - I'm kind of beyond that now.  When Will asked what "Independence Day" really is, I told him it is our country's birthday.  And I left it at that.  Only trouble with that was he kept asking where the cake and ice cream were.  So I took him out for ice cream afterwards, and he was satisfied.  Hope that doesn't make me a terrible parent - but I don't think a four-year-old is ready to hear about how his mother officially stopped loving her country the day the levees were breached in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina and doesn't think that love can ever be rekindled.  And how this movie and what it woke me up to and what's come since in the political power game have only deepened that resolve.

[maggiesmommy GayLee]

oh, yes, yes sister....i am surprised at the mutual feelings on this subject from a wide variety of people...comforting but surprising...i am not too silent about my opinions and feelings and i am getting alot of positive feedback...hope?? dunno..people afraid to swm upstream in the mainstream? dunno...but we need to forget all that and stand up and say how we feel OUR country should be run by the people WE PAY to do the job...no more, no less...unless you are an elected official, the only wepon you have is your voice, your $ and your pen....i challenge all of us to find ways to use the tools at our disposal to make a real change in the coming elections..your first line of defense is you vote...backing that up is your donations and time to the candidates that you believe in...it has to start somwhere, and if i give my time and $100 and vote for candidates who are dedicated to making a change in this area of equality.....AND ALL OF US WHO BELIEVE IN THIS do the same....why, there will be no stopping us...we have let our G/L brothers and sisters fight this fight alone for too long....too damed long....and we can quit it right now and stand up....we don't HAVE to STAND IT...we can take our lesson from Ennis' inability to move forward...and FIX IT!!   my first step will be to change my party affiliation...today...
gay lee

[alec716]

Dear maggiesmommy & ednbarby & julie01,

THANK YOU.  I am sure that I could post a detailed and substantive affirmance of your thoughts and emotions if your words had not just brought tears to my eyes and goosebumps to my arms. 

So, from the grown-up heart of this little gay kid from Buffalo who dared to dream that one day it would be OK...

THANK YOU for understanding how simple it could all be.

Now if y'all will pardon me, I need to find a certain warshrag to dry my face.      Y'all got me good.   

with love, Alec

[ednbarby]

Alec, you're in Buffalo?  I'm from Rochester.  I know very well what it's like in that part of the state.  I really feel for you, honey.

And I agree with Gay Lee (maggiesmommy) - not all hope is gone.  I've lost a lot of mine, but not every last shred of it.  I think we have a good shot at taking back Congress in November, if not the Presidency in 2008.  I certainly have given what money I can to the Bill Nelson campaign down here and have encouraged others to do the same. 

I'm going to look into what I need to do to be one of those people sitting at the Democrats' table, handing out refreshments and spin at my local polling place come Election Day.  As the line goes, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take this anymore!

[maggiesmommy GayLee]

oh, no, alec...thank YOU...you have had a life time of patience waiting for some of us to understand.  What is that quote??" the journey of a thousand (maybe a million) miles begins with the first step..."
Lets raise a glass to the first step, and all of those steps that will follow, on this journey to peace on earth, real goodwill to all humanity, and equality for mankind...the women fought for it and got it, the African americans fought for it and got it, we can win it too....however our hurdle may be a bit wider, beause this is viewed by some in the mainstream as a moral issue. until we get people to look beyond the deepley ingrained religious overtones that surround these issues and look at them in the bold light of day, it will be a struggle, never doubt it, but you just can't lay down....you have to step up, put out your hand, say loud for all to hear "this isn't right, it isn't decent, it isn't moral....it is judgement of another human being from people with no right to judge, and it must stop.....and I for one will help, with everything i have in me, my brothers and sisters fight this travesty."
i hate to always have to bring up the religious aspect, but that is the basis for all of the discrimination, is it not?? i just wonder with what misguided sense of selfrighteousness do people set themselves up as judges and jury for a whole segment of society...? remember the stories of when black americans had to ride in the back of the bus?? go to separate bathrooms, would not be served in many eating establishments..couldn't use the water fountains...wouldn't be hired...couldn't go to school where they lived...couldn't live in the "white" areas of the city, and on and on??  i was in high school when the Martin Luther King marches were going on..i remember how hard and long that fight was, and i also remember where it was won....it began in the streets, but it was won in the statehouses all across america, and in washington, by politicians who saw how wrong it was and were determined to effect change. I'm not saying there is still not prejudiced people here, there are, but the LAWS have changed, and they have no real power anymore, and guess what, it is ILLEGAL to discriminate on the basis of color, race, religion, national origin.....ooops  did they leave out your weight, and sexual orientation?? i THINK SO!! oh, yes, the ignorance is there, it can't be irradicated by written word, but it is impotent and again, i say,   ILLEGAL!!
AND i believe  We can see this happen again, we CAN see that, as you say, Alec, it could all be so simple....just let people live their lives...no heriocs, no fireworks, no change in anything we hold dear, just letting everyday citizens have peace, love, respect and in the future, not even have to think about it one way or the other...just people, all different, but all the same, living in a world where there really IS liberty and justice FOR ALL....with NO exceptions..no "buts" attached....
there will be a day, and i can see it, when little gay kids from Buffalo, or in any city in this country will never know what you have all gone through every day of your life...will be accepted from the beginning...never know the prejudice, the hatred and unreasoning judgement meted out by self appointed judges that exists now...they will live in a world where the only thing wrong and unlawful will be inhumanity to man...murder, rape, abuse, thievery..speeding?? but not merley living the life one was born to live.  That is the future we must always keep before our eyes..it is for them that we fight....and i am not just giving this lip service...i want all the straight people who are on this board because of your love for BBM and your newly opened eyes for your G/L  brothers and sisters, to consider a real change in your own life....talk it up....don't be afraid to verbalize your disagreement, don't be afraid to stand up and defend them in public to a crowd of 1 or 1,000!!  when there is this kind of wrong, we need to stop it, not sit by and let it happen...its now or never, people, right here, on the front lines, fully dressed for battle, arm and arm...lets begin this good fight....
and i have to apologize, for repeating myself, for not being able to answer a post with less than 500 words, and for not seeing all of this 30 years ago....
smooches...
gay lee

[maggiesmommy GayLee]

Alec, you're in Buffalo?  I'm from Rochester.  I know very well what it's like in that part of the state.  I really feel for you, honey.

And I agree with Gay Lee (maggiesmommy) - not all hope is gone.  I've lost a lot of mine, but not every last shred of it.  I think we have a good shot at taking back Congress in November, if not the Presidency in 2008.  I certainly have given what money I can to the Bill Nelson campaign down here and have encouraged others to do the same. 

I'm going to look into what I need to do to be one of those people sitting at the Democrats' table, handing out refreshments and spin at my local polling place come Election Day.  As the line goes, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take this anymore!

WEll, i don't knowwhat its like back east, but here in the heartland...i am in Topeka, Kansas, we have MrFred Phelps to deal with..you don't KNOW prejudice until you've lived in the "bible belt"....hohum....it gets real old....smug %*&#$*&%&&'s...
gl

[alec716]

WEll, i don't knowwhat its like back east, but here in the heartland...i am in Topeka, Kansas, we have MrFred Phelps to deal with..you don't KNOW prejudice until you've lived in the "bible belt"....hohum....it gets real old....smug %*&#$*&%&&'s...
gl

Thanks, maggiesmommy and ednbarby, for continuing this dialogue.  I have but a moment at work right now to be online, but I must tell you that I have tried to shout down Reverend Phelps at my share of demonstrations in the 18 years I have lived in Washington, D.C.  What could motivate the hate that some people espouse?  We can only speculate.  Funny, I don't feel like a threat to the very fabric of the American society and Western civilization itself.      I have worked in inner-city child welfare for 15 years here in D.C. and have seen every manner of horror, from beatings to rape to murder, that people can inflict on their own flesh and blood.  Others seem more worrisome to me than, say, me!      But that's a whole other story, and I am determined to keep this conversation positive.   

to be continued....

thanks.    -- Alec

[maggiesmommy GayLee]

no one should EVER, EVER have to feel that way about themselves or how others view them...you sound like a wonderful human being, alec...i worked in our local ER for many years before finally going to a private practice doc, and i too have seen so much misery that is inflicted on the helpless and innocent by bullies and absuers. You have a very very difficult job, and i know it is hard to take it every day without breaking totally or getting so calloused, just to maintain that you end up with no feelings at all...there is a very delicate balance there, and you seen to be doing a great job...the people whose lives you touch are belssed indeed...just think of the empathy and understanding you bring to the table...awsome..
gl

[Shuggy]

It's posts like yours that do a lot to break down the prejudice against all things American that is likely to infect us out here in the rest of the world. Sometimes you get the impression that Bush represents America, and then you hear from real Americans that he doesn't.
That patriotism thing... and it's infectious: see how many World Cup teams put their hands on their hearts for their National Anthems now. Even NZ, dammit.

[maggiesmommy GayLee]

thanks for your insight, shuggy..it helps to remember we're not all there is....and far from it..it helps to see the path ahead when we can learn how other countries handle similar situations...i love my country, if not most of the people that run it...and i have admired many of our presidents, of both parties, but  the issue before us, equality for all people, is long overdue for change. i want my country to stand proud in the world, not for military might or how much money we can pour into wars and disasters across the world, but for being an example of mand HUMANITY to man...
its a good dream, and one i hope to see come to pass in my lifetime....
thanks for your support..
gay lee

[delalluvia]

Freedom is never and has never been 'free'.

It has to be bought with blood and vigilantly watched and tended and cared for like the precious concept that it is.  It is a human concept and as such is interpreted freely by as many people as there are people.

Speaking from a relativistic POV, you get the govt/laws/rules you earned.  You want them changed?  Make them change.

Few things get changed because of 'fairness'.  The concepts of fairness and justice and equality for all have to be pushed and reinforced and brainwashed into our society and our kids because they are rarely concepts that anyone strives for.  Most people are tribal and ethnocentric and so the differences between people are scary and threatening so might makes right.

Freedom isn't free.  It has to be propped up, reinforced, protected and pushed pushed pushed.

[ednbarby]

With all due respect, Del, I don't think Gay Lee's point is whether freedom is free or not - it's whether we even really have it in this country.  I vote no.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Somebody needs to drop a house on the likes of Fred Phelps. And on Dubbya, too, while they're at it.

Ya know, I DO still love my country, which is why I'm so deeply hurt and depressed at the direction things have gone since the turn of the century. I was a little kid in the 1960s--11 years old when men first set foot on the moon. That means a couple of things. True, as a little kid, I wasn't really aware of what was going on in Vietnam, but I was aware of stuff like the Peace Corps, the War on Poverty, the Great Society, and the space program.

Hey, we're America! We're supposed to be the Good Guys! What happened? We've turned into the Evil Empire. 

And I never thought I would see the day when people would be so uncivil as to turn the funerals, where parents are burying their children, into occasions for political protest, so that we'd have to pass laws against it. 

If you folks will pardon a religious-type reference, I think a lot about a comment Thomas Jefferson once made: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just."

[maggiesmommy GayLee]

right, its not the "price" that I was discussing, but that in this nation that so proudly proclaims freedom for all, that is not the true way of things. sure it has to be bought, my father fought in WWII to buy it, our sons and duaghters are still fighting to buy this illusive thing....and dying....but this battle is not on the battle field...it is in the hearts and minds of our citizens and the people we HIRE to protect and  mandate our freedoms.  whe those elected officials are corrupt, when they are in power for the power and the money, when they can be bribed and sell out to the highest bidder, when they can be lobbioed by special interest groups and sell us doen the river for the almighty dollar and more personal power...we are forgotten, there are no lofty ideals and goals, it is all lip service to get elected again..its all about the money, the power and the vote...IF we really want to see freedom become available for all, we have to make funds available to the people that will speak for all of us, understand the needs to thier constituants and vote for whats right and not what will ge them more power and money.
Of, course, that is my point, not some pie in the sky notion that we shouldn't have to fight for the things we hold dear...we just need to go farther, and include all people....ALL PEOPLE....
gl  

[ednbarby]

Word, GL.

And I have to say that very few things piss me off more than when people say, "Well, if you don't like the current administration, change it."  And just how the hell are the rest of us supposed to do that?  I voted.  My husband voted.  I canvassed door-to-door trying to convince people to vote for John Kerry.  I affixed bumper stickers to my car trying to promote it.  I cold-called people for the DNC.  I donated lots of money to the cause.  I did everything I could.  And the bastards stole Ohio with their cheap anti-gay marriage trick.  There was nothing I could do to stop that.  So please don't condescend to me that somehow I have the administration I have because *I* didn't do more to make it different.  That's assinine and insulting.

(Sorry - in a venting kind of a mood today.)

[maggiesmommy GayLee]

oh, i hear you,edn, i know i am preaching to the choir...i know how hard we all work...and like i said, all of i t STILL leaves us powerless...because we don't have billions of $ and we aren't powerful people who could advance a political career. i want to be positive, i really do, but when we look at it politically, we are up against a mountain. maybe all we can expect to change are people...maybe thats the place to start....if the majority of people wanted changes, it would get done...
hope I didn't pis you off..i get kinda "pir in the sky" now and then

AND...Jeff....that was great....drop- a house on phelps, and we live in the land of OZ..and if you remember the good witch dropped a house on the BAD witch!!!
maybe we should TRY THAT!!

he is horrible and rude and an blight on our city....
gl

[ednbarby]

oh, i hear you,edn, i know i am preaching to the choir...i know how hard we all work...and like i said, all of i t STILL leaves us powerless...because we don't have billions of $ and we aren't powerful people who could advance a political career. i want to be positive, i really do, but when we look at it politically, we are up against a mountain. maybe all we can expect to change are people...maybe thats the place to start....if the majority of people wanted changes, it would get done...
hope I didn't pis you off..i get kinda "pir in the sky" now and then

Oh, no, no, no, no, no.  You didn't piss me off at all.  Del's post reminded me of a sentiment I hear often from the Right and it set me off.  My bad.

And I agree with you totally.  I try to be positive about all this (and sometimes fail ), but it gets more difficult all the time.

[delalluvia]

Sorry guys, but that's the way democracy works.  I'm sure my right-wing friends were in hell the 8 years Clinton was in office.  Personally, I was pretty happy politically then.

I, too, voted for Kerry, pushed him, advertised for him, and he came awfully close.

Can I complain that he lost?  Yes.  Was I pissed?  Yep.  Can I argue with the way the election went?  No.  That's how democracy works.  How freedom works.

More people than ever turned out for the vote, there was little to no voter fraud reported and Dubya still won by over a million votes, squeaking by to be sure.

If people are led around by their morality meters in a political race, there's not much that I can do other than keep pushing for secular teaching, schooling and equal rights so I can hope their children will be different.

That's a religious problem, not a political one.  Politicos will use whatever leverage they have to win a race and if some people are still trying to live by the rules of a wandering shepherd people's thunder god, politicos will use that as leveraging power and there's not much I can do about it in this country because those people are free to practice that belief and pass it on to their children along with its inherent prejudices.

Freedom was promised in this country by rich white men for other rich white men.  They originally didn't want poor white men part of the voting populace.  But that had to change to win a war.

Women, slaves weren't even part of that 'freedom'.

So I guess we can say we're hypocritical because it took over a century to give blacks and women the right to vote, and since that's the case, then we've been hypocritical from day one.  There were never any 'good old days' of freedom in this country.

Personally I believe we're hypocritical, but taking in everything and in comparison with other countries, I'd say we're still in the top 10 of freedom loving countries.

Are we perfect?  Nope, but we keep trying.  There are some states moving ahead, the gay constitution ban was voted down...progress is slow, but it's coming.