Author Topic: Women and Marriage  (Read 23435 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Women and Marriage
« on: December 10, 2008, 12:36:48 pm »

In the Proposition 8 thread a discussion has come up about the traditional understanding of marriage out of a very interesting article posted by MaineWriter.  Here is a link to her post of the article: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,29984.msg449249.html#msg449249

The article is about the gay marriage debate in Iowa and was posted in the NYT (by Kirk Johnson,
Iowa Justices Hear Same-Sex Marriage Case)

This is the part from the article that I think is very interesting for women in general (gay or straight) to consider.

Quote
An assistant attorney for Polk County, Roger J. Kuhle, said the core of marriage, historically, was about children and creating stable systems for procreation.

“The essential factor of marriage, which is procreation, which is raising children, which is replenishing society, has never changed,” Mr. Kuhle told the court.

Justice David S. Wiggins then pointed out that society’s notion of what was acceptable in marriage had evolved over time.


This was my own reply in the Prop 8 thread to the whole notion of procreation being the basis for marriage by some definitions:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,29984.msg449298.html#msg449298
Quote
The one point that kept coming up in the article/ the discussions that annoys me is the issue of "procreation."  If they're worried about the original societal function of marriage... it was about procreation (yes), men exchanging women (a father giving his daughter to another man), and the exchange of land/ property/money (between men, using women).  There's nothing romantic about the original societal function of marriage.  The idea of marrying someone you like (or love) is very modern.  And, the idea that people can pick their own partners is also very modern.

I mean, a strict understanding of the histocial, societal function of marriage is very yucky.  Especially for women.

Anyway, another annoying thing about the procreation issue... is straight people marry all the time with no intention of having kids.  They don't have to sign a pledge promising to have kids in order to get married.

So, I think here there is a wider question for women about marriage as an institution.  What do women see as beneficial about marriage to them?  Do you think that marriage as an institution really has evolved for women?

When I think about the gay marriage debate (as a woman and a gay person) I find it to be a complex issue.  Of course, I wholeheartedly support gay marriage if that's what people want.  As a woman, I find the history of marriage to be very, very troubling.  I personally would be very uncomfortable entering into such a heavily patriarchal institution (historically speaking).  And, I also wonder about the urge to impose that type of institution on a lesbian relationship specifically.  For some gay people, avoiding this type of societal structure is a core aspect of a gay relationship.  But, clearly for others there's a strong desire to follow traditional models of family structures.

I'd be really curious to here how other women feel about marriage... as an institution I mean.

Also, if you'd like to discuss personal experiences of marriage or issues like feeling pressured (by parents, partners, etc.) over the issue of marriage, this could be a great venue too.





the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2008, 01:35:25 pm »

Your reply was excellent atz.  The original function of marriage wasn't procreation.  It was economic.  The transfer of goods/services and the binding of two family groups for whatever reason in a patriarchal type society.

Children and love had little if nothing to do with it originally.  Now a man's desire for descendants would finally come into it, since he had to keep the family holdings in the family, but since he could sire children in and out of marriage, what did the marriage partner being fertile have anything to do with it?

The man wanted to keep his goods in his family.  But he had to make sure his children were his own.  The woman was always sure her children were hers, but her partner could not be.  But since in patriarchal societies, a woman's lineage wasn't the important one, that the child was definitely hers didn't really count.

So basically, the procreation of children was a subset reason for marriage, but only because the transfer of goods from one generation to another was what was important.

And then this was only important in families that had substantial goods to transfer.  Sex was had and children were born in and out of marriage for the poorer folks so marriage wasn't as big a deal, well, up until the religious aspects came into things, which really then put the thumb down on women.

As for modern times.  I'm not a big believer in marriage.  The only benefits I see are economic ones - tax breaks, etc.  With the high divorce rate, providing a stable home for children is no longer something that can be strictly attributed to marriage.

But what marriage does do is protect the rights of each partner in the marriage, so if one spouse is lost to death or the partnership does end, each partner can expect the law and society to respect their rights to the deceased, the children and to the property shared to be considered.     

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2008, 01:51:40 pm »
The man wanted to keep his goods in his family.  But he had to make sure his children were his own.  The woman was always sure her children were hers, but her partner could not be.  But since in patriarchal societies, a woman's lineage wasn't the important one, that the child was definitely hers didn't really count.  

Thanks delalluvia! I think your post is really, really interesting. 

About this point here... I always wonder if what you explained here is why children routinely are given their father's last name (in most or many cultures)?  I mean, putting his name on the child was one of the only tangible ways to establish a link to the child. 

You're right that it's easy for the mother to claim the child since her role in reproduction is so physical while the father's role is so abstract.


I'm editing this to add a personal example here.

One of my best friends had her first child last year.  She kept her name at the time of her marriage.  So, she and her husband have two totally separate last names.  But the child only has the father's last name.


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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2008, 01:58:53 pm »
Thanks delalluvia! I think your post is really, really interesting. 

About this point here...I always wonder if what you explained here is why children routinely are given their father's last name (in most or many cultures)?  I mean, putting his name on the child was one of the only tangible ways to establish a link to the child. 

You're right that it's easy for the mother to claim the child since her role in reproduction is so physical while the father's role is so abstract.

IMO, the reason is because women were property.  Her name wasn't important.  His name was.  That's why in a traditional western marriage ceremony, the father "gives away" the bride to the new man in his daughter's life.  She is being transferred as goods from one man to another.  And the father is asked and he has to state this publically.

She is traditionally veiled, to show her modesty and hide from the prying eyes of the public, but the husband-to-be has the right to inspect the bride, make sure he is getting the right woman, and he does this by lifting her veil to look before the ceremony is concluded.

She used to have her father's name going into the ceremony, then after, she has her husband's name.

Years ago, women were known as Mrs. Thomas Jones.  She didn't even use her first name.

One of the saddest monuments I read about was an early east coast settler in the U.S.  He and his wife's gravestone was set in the corner of the church.  It read (I forget the real names) Mr. John Smith and wife.

Who was his wife?  Her name?  We'll never know.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 02:03:21 pm »
I'm editing this to add a personal example here.

One of my best friends had her first child last year.  She kept her name at the time of her marriage.  So, she and her husband have two totally separate last names.  But the child only has the father's last name.

Interestingly, I'd like to know why she made this decision.  On average, the woman will spend more time in housekeeping and childrearing, so if anything, it makes more sense for the child to take her name.

But likely, I suspect it has something to do with making her husband feel like he has some interest in the family group.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2008, 02:19:01 pm »
The man wanted to keep his goods in his family.  But he had to make sure his children were his own.  The woman was always sure her children were hers, but her partner could not be.  But since in patriarchal societies, a woman's lineage wasn't the important one, that the child was definitely hers didn't really count.

 :laugh:  I just wrote pretty much this same thing in a post on the Prop 8 thread! You added a lot of good detail, though.

A few years ago, I reviewed a book called "A History of the Wife," about the changing role of married women in Western societies. I still have it around, and will try to take a look through it to see if I can find any interesting tidbits for this thread.



Meanwhile, I think it's important to note that many of those marital practices we find horrifying -- arranged marriages, marriages of young girls to much older men, marriages established for property reasons rather than emotional ones -- are still quite common in many parts of the world. One of the most horrible newspaper stories I've ever read was a Chicago Tribune article on child brides. I've posted it on BetterMost before, but this seems like a good place to do it again.

I was going to just post an excerpt from this very long article, but when I hit "print version," the whole thing came up, so I'm just gonna go ahead and post it.:

www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0412120360dec12,0,6964856.story

chicagotribune.com
The bride was 7
In the heart of Ethiopia, child marriage takes a brutal toll

By Paul Salopek


Tribune foreign correspondent

December 12, 2004

THE CENTRAL HIGHLANDS OF ETHIOPIA

Tihun Nebiyu the goat herder doesn't want to marry. She is adamant about this. But in her village nobody heeds the opinions of headstrong little girls.

That's why she's kneeling in the filigreed shade of her favorite thorn tree, dropping beetles down her dress. Magic beetles.

"When they bite you here--" Tihun explains gravely, pressing the scrabbling insects into her chest through the fabric of her tattered smock "--it makes your breasts grow."

This is Tihun's own wishful brand of sorcery--a child's desperate measure to turn herself into an adult. Then maybe, just maybe, her family would respect her wishes not to wed. She could rebuff the strange man her papa has chosen to be her husband. And she wouldn't have to bear his dumb babies.

Tihun kneels in the dirt, eyes closed: an elfin figure whose smile is made goofily endearing by two missing front teeth. She holds her small hands over her nipples. She is waiting for the bugs' enchantment to start. Seconds pass. But nothing happens. Eventually, she starts to giggle. The beetles have escaped--by crawling up her neck.

"It doesn't work!" Tihun says, disgusted. She heaves an exaggerated sigh and squints out across the yellow-grass hills surrounding her world: "I will just have to run."

But this is childish bluster. Tihun's short legs can't carry her away fast enough from the death of her childhood. Her wedding is five days away. And she is 7 years old.

Girls no more


There are, according to child-rights activists, an estimated 50 million Tihuns scattered across the world: young teen or even preteen girls whose innocence is being sacrificed to arranged marriages, often with older men.

Coerced by family and culture into lives of servility and isolation, and scarred by the trauma of too-early pregnancy, child brides represent a vast, lost generation of children.

While humanitarian campaigns have focused global attention on childhood AIDS in Africa, female genital mutilation and child labor, one of the underlying sources of all these woes remains largely ignored. Child marriage, an ancient, entrenched practice long hidden in shadow, was only denounced by the United Nations as a serious human-rights violation in 2001.

"This is a big, tough, complicated issue," concedes Abebe Kebede, a leading Ethiopian social worker.

"It hasn't been highlighted that much because marriage is viewed positively in almost every culture," Kebede says. "Who wants to tackle that? Never mind that the consequences for kids--and whole nations--are pretty disastrous."

The most brutal toll is medical: Early pregnancies are the leading cause of death for girls age 15 to 19 in the developing world, says the UN. And medical relief groups believe that at least 2 million women worldwide are currently living with gruesome vaginal and anal ruptures, called fistulas, that result from bearing children much too young. Untreated fistulas can be fatal, and survivors are usually left incontinent for life.

But child marriage ruins lives in other ways too. Often treated like indentured servants, young brides are subject to beatings by their grown husbands and in-laws. And thousands of girls end up trapped in the sex trade, whether through organized child bride trafficking rings in countries such as China or, in Africa, by simply drifting from abusive marriages into street prostitution, social workers say.

The most far-reaching injustice of child marriage by far, however, is probably its most subtle: It pries millions of young girls out of school. Confined to their husbands' homes, and cheated of the benefits of education, legions of demoralized children worldwide are condemned to lives of ignorance and dire poverty from which they rarely escape, and which they endure with numbed desperation.

"That's the most heartbreaking thing about this issue," says Micol Zarb, a spokeswoman for the UN Population Fund, or UNFPA, which monitors global reproductive health. "All the misery and pain is occurring in silence. These are just kids. They don't speak out. We never hear from them."

According to the UNFPA, at least 49 countries in the world, roughly a quarter of all nations, face a significant child bride problem--that is, at least 15 percent of their girls marry younger than age 18, the widely recognized threshold of adulthood.

Not surprisingly, the epicenters of child wedlock are sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia, where cementing clan ties through marriage, a preoccupation with bridal virginity and fear of contracting AIDS are strongest.

Ethiopia is one such hot spot. Its government, pressured by aid organizations, has started prohibiting early marriages. Yet the tradition is hard to stamp out.

Among Ethiopia's rural Amhara people--a culture of warrior-farmers in which a staggering 82 percent of all brides are underage--the drumming and tribal dancing that enliven child weddings can still be heard echoing through the mountain nights. Only it is a bit muffled these days: The grooms and their tiny, bewildered brides--cocooned in white cloth--simply have moved their nuptials indoors.

This is the story of just one child bride, Tihun, the whimsical goatherd.

Born into the Amhara ethnic group, she sings nonsense songs in breathy Amharic in a remote valley filled with plowed fields and blackbirds, high in the rugged Horn of Africa. And in the last childhood summer of her life, she still believed in the liberating power of magic.

In Amharaland

Tihun's world is gorgeous and cruel.

It is the golden month of May. With its straw-colored hills, toga-draped shepherds and loaf-like volcanic buttes jutting to 7,000 feet, the remote homeland of some 16 million Amharas looks like a landscape straight out of J.R.R. Tolkien's fable "The Hobbit"--the ethereal Africa of dreams.

But conversations with the shy children in the region reveal a disconcerting fact: Virtually every little girl in sight--whether carrying a bundle of firewood or racing across lumpy fields--is already spoken for. The 11-year-old buying sweets at a village market is somebody's wife. Two girls playing an elaborate Ethiopian version of hopscotch in the dust are soon to be brides. And a scrawny 5th grader skipping home from school is already divorced. Divorce, though frowned upon, can occur when families feud.

Amharaland has the highest child marriage rates in the world, according to UN and Ethiopian statistics; in some dusty corners of the ancient highlands, almost 90 percent of the local girls are married before age 15.

The forces behind this startling demographic are at work in all child bride cultures--just taken to extremes in the heart of Ethiopia.

Local poverty is wrenching. Barefoot children sprint after passing cars to beg for garbage--especially the disposable water bottles tossed out by foreign aid workers, which are coveted over the villagers' heavy clay jugs.

The highland rains are erratic. Famine haunts the cooking fires. And because daughters rarely inherit fertile lands, keeping them at home and feeding them are considered a folly. Better to marry them off quickly, the logic of survival goes, to strengthen family alliances for the lean times.

The Amharas' demands for bridal virginity, meanwhile, can be fanatical. Anxious parents push their daughters into wedlock years before puberty because they fear the onset of menstruation may be mistaken for the taboo of premarital sex.

And the powerful Ethiopian Orthodox Church has long played a role in early matchmaking. Church teachings traditionally encouraged marriage before age 15, declaring that this was the age of the Virgin Mary at the Immaculate Conception of Christ.

"During these times we have started to advocate against that idea," says Simia Kone Melak, a bearded priest at one of the hundreds of rock-walled monasteries dotting Amhara country. "The government has told us that child marriage is wrong. So we are telling families to wait."

Yet priests continue to bless early marriages. And the new message butts up against centuries of younger-is-better belief.

"In truth, if a girl reaches 13, she is already too old to be married," declares Nebiyu Melese, 54, Tihun's wiry farmer father. "I know some people say this is uncivilized. But they don't live here. So how can they judge?"

Tough, opinionated Melese, his sad-eyed wife, Beyenech Alem, 45, and their seven children are traditional Amharas in many ways. They plant millet and corn, and sleep next to their goats in a mud-walled house infested with ticks and fleas.

But just as families vary in American suburbia, so they do in African villages. Tihun was born into a gruff, noisy household--the clan's squabbles reverberate across fields 50 yards away. A pious and conservative patriarch, Melese disdains schooling for his girls and brooks no resistance to early marriage.

To save on wedding expenses, he has shrewdly arranged to marry off four of his children on the same day. Tihun and her more worldly big sister Dinke, 10, will be carted away on horses by strangers who are their husbands. And two teenage sons will bring home 10-year-old brides.

For Tihun, Melese has scored a minor coup: a deacon in the Orthodox Church.

"He has a good lemon orchard," Melese says approvingly.

It never occurs to the stern old man to consult his youngest daughter on these decisions. Unless issuing orders, he never speaks to her at all.

This isn't coldheartedness. It is a form of emotional self-preservation on the harsher edges of the world--a place where one out of five children die before reaching the age of 5.

Tricked by life

Tihun is sulking.

It is three days before her wedding. She sits with her legs akimbo under the thorn tree, passing time with her 6-year-old pal Mulusaw. Two bony girls in rag dresses. They play an Amhara version of jacks--tossing and catching small pebbles.

"I would rather be eaten by a hyena than marry that person," Tihun complains of her unknown fiance. "Nobody ever listens to me!"

Today she has given up on magic as her means of salvation. As the wedding ceremony approaches, she grows withdrawn. She whispers sullenly that she might be better off dead.

Mulusaw nods in sympathy. She will be betrothed next year. But to a 6-year-old, that is an eternity away.

Soon Tihun and Mulusaw are laughing--wrestling in the packed dust. Tihun forgets about her future. She forgets to keep an eye on her goats. The bucktoothed animals invade the family's potato patch. And furious shouts erupt from the farmhouse.

"Tihun is careless," says Mintiwab, 22, Tihun's eldest sister, who was abandoned by her husband and lives at home. "She is always in trouble."

And it's true. Tihun is an incompetent farm laborer. Easily bored, prone to daydreaming, she is distracted by odd-shaped rocks in the fields, slow-moving insects and the flocks of pied crows racing like pepper grains across the sunlit sky.

Her marauding animals ravage many potato seedlings. Later, Mintiwab beats Tihun with a switch. Arms and bare feet pumping, the little girl runs off screeching into the fields, her face contorted more by surprise than pain--as if somehow tricked by life again.

An exotic refuge

One of Tihun's secret diversions is watching village children walk home from school. She nudges her unruly goats to a hilltop overlooking the Chinese-built road where they come trudging--platoons of boys and girls in patched clothes. Tihun gapes at them in awe. Her head cocked sideways on her scrawny neck. Blinking in silence.

Does she want to attend school? Of course. Why? She cannot say. School is something mysterious. Exotic. Students are elite beings. They have special possessions--a tattered government workbook. (They share old pencil stubs.) But her papa has allowed only one older brother to enroll. And Tihun must fill his job as a herder.

In Ethiopia, education is mandatory for both sexes until the 6th grade. But in Tihun's remote valley, many families keep their girls at home through their school-age years to tap their farm labor. Parents also fear for their daughters' virginity at the mud-and-wattle schoolhouse 3 miles away.

Child-rights workers worldwide agree that education is the single most important key unlocking the prison of child marriage.

Essential for enhancing a girl's income potential--and for broadening her horizons--schoolwork also gives her body time to mature before the rigors of childbirth.

"It's the key reason the practice is declining in the places where it's declining," says Kathleen Kurz, an analyst with the non-governmental International Center for Research on Women in Washington. "Convincing parents of the benefits of schooling works far better than just banning child marriage outright."

In countries such as India, secondary education has slashed child marriage rates by up to two-thirds. And across the developing world, girls who complete primary school tend to marry four years later and have on average two fewer children, UN surveys show.

In the smoky villages of rural Ethiopia--some of the least educated communities in the world--the girls who step into crude schoolrooms are revolutionaries in braids.

"I only remember my marriage like a dream," says Zigiju Mola, 12, an Amhara 5th grader who was married at 6 but who stubbornly persuaded her parents to continue paying her school fees.

"I also give my husband courage to attend school," says Zigiju, a precocious girl with tattooed beauty marks on her cheeks. "He wants to keep an eye on me and not be left behind."

Her husband, an embarrassed-looking youth of 18, scrunches behind his 2nd-grade plank desk in the same dirt-floored school.

Scores of girls at the school are child brides.

"That's exactly why conservative parents distrust education," says Banchalem Addis, one of the handful of women teachers in Amharaland. "Most pupils never want to go back to the farm and be their mother-in-laws' slaves."

The runaways

Some 150 miles from Tihun's valley, in a working-class neighborhood of Addis Ababa, the teeming Ethiopian capital, a strange, creaking metal structure towers over the houses: a multistory homeless shelter made from stacked shipping containers.

Erected by a local humanitarian project called Godanaw, the shelter has provided skills training and health care to some 1,200 street girls--three-quarters of them escapees from early marriages in the countryside.

"I don't ever want to be touched by a man again," says glassy-eyed Alem Siraj, 19, who straggled into the rickety structure with her 5-month-old baby, Nebiyu.

Siraj walked out of her arranged marriage in the highlands when she was 14, rode a bus to Addis Ababa, found work as a maid and was raped, she says, by her employer--the father of her son. She was fired when her pregnancy showed, Siraj says.

Like tens of thousands of other outcasts from early marriage, she can never go home. But life could get worse. Countless runaways like her end up mired in the sex trade.

The northern town of Bahar Dar is one such trap for the vulnerable flotsam of Ethiopia's child marriages.

Bars hawking millet beer, or tela, line the dingy streets. After dark, small girls can be seen wiping tables, carrying glasses or lounging by doorways that gush blue light and Ethiopian pop music at cruising cars. At one establishment, a shy, teen bar girl named Belayinesh describes in a monotone her flight from an arranged marriage and her battered hope "that someone here will help me."

"AIDS awaits her," says Teshone Belete, a social worker visiting the bar on his rounds through the back alleys of the city. "She will be dead in five years."

The plagues of HIV and child marriage go hand in hand throughout the developing world.

Even those young brides not forced into prostitution usually end up with higher-than-average infection rates. Research by the non-profit Population Council shows that because their husbands are older, often sexually experienced and possibly carrying the virus already, child wives are more at risk of AIDS than single girls their age.

Tragically, the infection rates of child brides in Africa are pumped even higher by the spreading folk belief that sex with virgin girls can cure AIDS. In Ethiopia, according to the UN, 6 out of 10 new HIV cases are found in girls under 24.

Sewareg Debas, 18, is aware of this risk.

A striking Amhara bar girl with long braided hair, she was forced to drop out of the 8th grade for an arranged marriage. As she tells her familiar story inside a parked car, a mob of red-eyed drunks spills out of her employer's saloon. Slurring their words, they jeer her for speaking to strangers. They pound belligerently on the rolled-up car windows. A large crowd of curious onlookers assembles. Debas falls silent. Terrified, she stares mutely into her lap.

This happens in the village of Meshenti, on the Chinese road to Tihun's farm.

Trinkets and plastic shoes

Tihun is dazzled.

Mintiwab has brought home a fabulous treasure: Tihun's wedding gown. A simple cotton dress patterned with flowers. Tihun can't tear her eyes from it, cannot stop touching it. And there is more. A pair of plastic slippers. A grown-up's woven shawl. Some cheap bangles. Beads and trinkets.

Tihun yanks on this magnificent finery and skitters around the family hut. For the first time in her life, the center of attention. A woman in miniature. She marries tomorrow.

Yezare amete, yemamushe enate: "By this time next year, the mother of a son."

For all Amharas, this wedding song is unambiguous. A girl's highest function is to produce boys--quickly and often. Starting, on average, at age 14, an Amhara girl will give birth every year for 15 years. She will be left with seven surviving children, Ethiopia's national average.

Tihun will not be forced to have sex for a couple of years. (This is tacitly agreed upon by the two families.) But when the time comes--usually no later than age 12--her jubilant husband will carry a bloodstained sheet like a pennant to her parents.

For millions of other child brides, initiations into sex can be even more traumatic.

Among the minority Gurage people of Ethiopia, pubescent brides are typically "softened up" with natural purgatives and fasting, and their fingernails are clipped. On the night of the wedding, the groom forces himself on his weakened wife. She is expected to resist. Cheers erupt outside the nuptial hut when news of the consummation reaches the wedding guests.

On extremely rare occasions, the children meet violence with violence.

Among the Oromo people in Ethiopia, Kenya and Sudan, for example, there is the notorious practice of "marriage by abduction." In this case, there is no consent whatever: A groom secures a bride by kidnapping and raping a girl he fancies. Her robbed virginity becomes the basis of marriage.

This tribal custom made headlines in Ethiopia when a 14-year-old schoolgirl shot dead her rapist and would-be husband with an AK-47 assault rifle. She was acquitted of murder, to the astonishment of the conservative public. A women's rights group in the country called the verdict "a revolution against male culture."

Tihun has no inkling of what awaits her.

"I won't tell her," whispers Alem, her stooped old mother, who married at 10. "It is our custom that she experience it on her own."

Tihun minces about in her plastic slippers all afternoon. The new shoes blister her untamed feet. But she is too giddy to care. And she no longer plans to escape her wedding.

``The ultimate pariahs'


There is a hospital in Ethiopia's capital, Addis Ababa, where you must breathe through your mouth.

The reek of feces and urine mixed with disinfectant is dizzying. Footprint-shaped stains of human waste lead from the sunny, white-tiled wards to a secluded garden outside. These are the tracks of the patients--women and girls whose reproductive tissues have been horribly ripped apart by too-early childbirth. Meekly clutching towels about their waists, leaking constantly, they stagger under the trees, sucking in fresh air.

The Addis Ababa Fistula Hospital may look like the darkest dead end of the child bride experience.

But in truth, only the lucky come here. For every one of the 1,200 girls who are operated on yearly for fistulas--the term for the ruptures caused by too-big babies' heads blocking too-small pelvises--there are at least 10 others left untreated in the bush.

According to the UN Population Fund, some 2 million women worldwide suffer the devastating ailment. About 50,000 to 100,000 new cases emerge annually, perhaps 10,000 of them in Ethiopia alone. Thousands of fistula victims die untended in their remote villages. Nobody really knows the number.

"These girls are the ultimate pariahs," says Ruth Kennedy, an American midwife who helps manage the charity hospital. "Imagine stinking and staining up things, and drawing flies. Husbands and families disown them. They end up as beggars or hermits."

Like many people who grapple with human suffering every day, Kennedy hides her empathy behind a facade of brusque, no-nonsense efficiency.

She strides down the hospital's incessantly mopped halls, rattling off practical solutions to the scourge of early pregnancy. Like keeping the pressure on the Orthodox Church to preach more strenuously against child marriage. Or opening all-girls schools to convince skeptical parents that their daughters' virginity will be shielded from male students. Or simply building more roads in the rugged interior to speed pregnant girls to medical care more quickly.

She has little time for well-meaning campaigns by outside humanitarian groups.

"You know, foreign donors come here and lecture the Ethiopians, `You must protect these poor, oppressed children and stamp out early marriage,'" Kennedy says. "But what about our own 13-year-old daughters in America and Europe who are having sex with multiple partners? We're handing out condoms in schools. So it's pretty hypocritical, isn't it?"

Mostly, though, she just tells stories.

Such as: "There was this beautiful 16-year-old Afar girl. She suffered terrible, terrible injuries. She had been in labor for four days. The baby died. She squeezed it out as a piece of dead meat."

Or: "One girl gave birth to six dead babies in a row. The sixth finally gave her a fistula."

Or: "One mother was carried here for 2 1/2 days by her 18-year-old son. He had urine and feces streaming down his back. That is love."

Feast and celebration

Tihun hasn't spoken all day.

Her husband arrived at midnight, as prescribed by Amhara custom, with an escort of nine best friends. He is Ayalew, an Orthodox Church deacon of 17, handsome, regal, wrapped in a dazzling white robe and sheltered from the sky by a large red umbrella. He barely speaks.

"Oh! Miss Tihun," his best man proclaims in a formal wedding address, "you are very lucky! Having a priest to marry, God picked you like Virgin Mary!"

Scores of neighbors arrive to join in a feast of sour injera bread and goat meat. Millet beer flows by the barrelful. Dozens of dancers steam up the cramped air inside the family hut. Cow-horn trumpets and skin drums reverberate far into the next starlit night.

Melese doesn't care if the government fines him 100 birr, or $12, for breaking Ethiopia's new civil codes, which stipulate a minimum legal marrying age of 18 for girls. Bustling about among the milling guests like an anxious maitre d', he urges them to sing louder. He wants to announce the weddings of his two boys and girls to the world.

Tihun has been bathed with a wet rag. Her head has been shaved and she wears her prized dress. Huddled with her sister Dinke in a corner of the cavelike hut, she watches the amazements of her marriage ceremony pinwheel about her. Preternaturally still. Narcotized by sleeplessness--by fasting that, according to tradition, will calm her. Mulusaw, her inseparable friend, lies next to her to provide comfort.

With the formal marriage request to old Melese over, there is no further elaborate ritual. The celebration flows. Tihun and her new husband never exchange a word.

By dawn the next morning she is gone, carried off to her in-laws' farm on a horse caparisoned with tin bells and red velvet. The groomsmen tote her in their arms from the hut to the saddle; during her wedding, her feet must never touch the ground.

"She didn't cry when she left, which is good," Melese says later, bleary-eyed but proud under Tihun's thorn tree. "She really didn't know where she was going."

Melese has staggered to the tree to guard the all-important family fields from goats. He waits for one of his unmarried children to relieve him.

The dust under the tree still bears Tihun's tiny footprints. And the rocks she used as jacks. Ephemeral reminders of a childhood, they will be blown away in the next windstorm.



The reporting team

Foreign correspondent Paul Salopek has covered Africa, the Balkans, the Middle East and Central Asia. His reporting in the U.S. and abroad has captured two Pulitzer Prizes.

Photographer Heather Stone has traveled throughout the U.S. and abroad for a variety of assignments, including the Olympics and Yasser Arafat's funeral. She has won many national photo awards.

Copyright © 2008, Chicago Tribune





Offline opinionista

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2008, 02:19:27 pm »
Interestingly, I'd like to know why she made this decision.  On average, the woman will spend more time in housekeeping and childrearing, so if anything, it makes more sense for the child to take her name.

But likely, I suspect it has something to do with making her husband feel like he has some interest in the family group.

I've always wondered why in Anglosaxon cultures women change their maiden names and take their husband's upon marrying. It doesn't happen in the hispanic culture. Women keep their names and the kids receive both their father and mother's last names. I have two, my dad and my mom's as everyone else in Spain and Latin America. It is mandatory here to have two last names. In all official documents you are asked to add both last names. When I was living in the US I had to put a dash between my last names, because people thought my father's last name is my middle name and there was always some confusion or problems because of it.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2008, 02:26:00 pm »
Sooooo tragic, crayons.

Funny though. A few years ago, my best friend lived across the street from me with her two roommates - one Malaysian and the other Indian.  Both were raised here in the States.  Both liked to party, go clubbing and date men. 

But their parents arranged marriages for them - with their consent.

Both young women had absolutely no problem with this.  In fact, they claimed it took a lot of pressure off them to find husbands themselves.  They could just date for fun and not worry about forming a serious relationship.  They had their parents finding men who would line up for them to pick through who were offering a serious relationship to them.

And they were both happy with this setup and gladly married men in this way.

One girl couldn't choose between a rich, tall, dark and handsome doctor from Washington DC, or a shorter, pudgier rich doctor from NY.  She asked us for our opinion.  We recommended the shorter pudgier one.  Less ego possibly to deal with.  She agreed.  She married him.

IMO, so long as it's consensual on both sides, arranged marriages are just fine.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2008, 02:29:26 pm »
Interestingly, I'd like to know why she made this decision.  On average, the woman will spend more time in housekeeping and childrearing, so if anything, it makes more sense for the child to take her name.

But likely, I suspect it has something to do with making her husband feel like he has some interest in the family group.

We did that. My husband and I have two different last names. Our kids have his last name.

When I was pregnant, I was discussing at lunch the various options, including giving girls my last name and boys his last name. My boss snapped, "Don't do that. It will confuse the kids."  ::)  I think any kid old enough to know the various names can pretty much figure it out. Would kids with a different last name than their dad assume they were fathered by some other man? I don't think my children think I'm unrelated to them because I have a different last name.

Anyway, there seemed like no easy answer to this. The most common thing among people I know, where husband and wives have two different names, is for the kids to take his name. Some do hyphenation, but our two last names, hyphenated, seemed unwieldly. So finally, we did go with the girl/my name, boys/his name plan. We ended up with both boys, so it was the path of least resistance -- we followed the custom of our social realm.


IMO, so long as it's consensual on both sides, arranged marriages are just fine.

Right. I think consent is the key. And, of course, that requires the bride be an adult woman.






Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2008, 02:34:09 pm »
Interestingly, I'd like to know why she made this decision.  On average, the woman will spend more time in housekeeping and childrearing, so if anything, it makes more sense for the child to take her name.

But likely, I suspect it has something to do with making her husband feel like he has some interest in the family group.

I've never asked her about her reasonings for (1) not changing her name at the time of marriage or (2) deciding to let her daughter have only her husband's last name.  Somehow it feels strange to ask questions like that sometimes.

The only case I know of personally where a husband took his wife's name is the son of one of my Mom's old friends.  He married a Mexican woman, and both he and she could be considered pretty strong feminists.  So, they both took each others names with a hyphen.   They have since gotten divorced and I really don't know what happened with their names.  I've lost track of them.

And, on the name subject... I have another good friend from grad school who did choose to take her husband's name at the time of her marriage.  And, she's very, very defensive about it because I think people question her about it a lot.  It's interesting that within some peer groups there's a good deal of pressure to resist the tradition of taking your husband's name.  That friend gets to uncomfortable with questions about it... it's one of the reasons I'm reluctant to bring topics like this up with a number of friends.

That's why this thread is so interesting!  I love hearing peoples' opinions about this.

p.s. K, your post came in as I was writing this.
:)

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2008, 02:35:45 pm »
I've always wondered why in Anglosaxon cultures women change their maiden names and take their husband's upon marrying. It doesn't happen in the hispanic culture. Women keep their names and the kids receive both their father and mother's last names. I have two, my dad and my mom's as everyone else in Spain and Latin America. It is mandatory here to have two last names. In all official documents you are asked to add both last names. When I was living in the US I had to put a dash between my last names, because people thought my father's last name is my middle name and there was always some confusion or problems because of it.

Well, kinda.  In Hispanic cultures, the name women keep is their fathers'.  Women don't have their 'own' names in Western culture.  It's always the name of some man.

To make a complete break, women would have to give themselves their own name.

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2008, 02:53:08 pm »
Yes, the early days of marriage sucked. But we might want to remember that pre-technology, pre-sanitation, pre-contemporary rape laws — life wasn't that great for the single woman: what physical protection did she have? Having a man close to you at least partially guaranteed some sort of physical protection/stability in your life: a safe cave to live in, etc. Of course, back then a lot of the woman's legal or abstract societal protection was understood in terms of not violating the man's "property" — a damn sexist POV as we know. But it probably beat the heck out of freezing to death or being rape fodder. [Edit: I wrote this post while the other stuff was being posted about marriage in Africa, child brides (gag), etc. This may also apply there, horrible as it is.]

Another quick thing (building on Del's first point about spouses' rights) is that it protected the rights of mothers. Look at Alma at the divorce scene: men could no longer sire children and just walk away. Marriage (even in dissolution) guaranteed that a family could draw on the man's (greater) economic power, to see that mother + children were provided for.

Quote
Do you think that marriage as an institution really has evolved for women?

Yes, absolutely.  As womens' rights and the perception of women in society have changed, marriage has evolved in parallel. In some pretty obvious ways.  In just about every contemporary culture (excluding conservative Muslim or Christian culture, and maybe some tribal ones) women are no longer expected to be virgins on the wedding night, nor is there the winking double-standard that men can stray, nor the expectation that the woman will stay home — etc. etc.  Most all the sexist, "yucky" elements from the crap days of marriage have gone out the window.

So what's left, you ask? One is a sense of security and stability in your life. That's meant a lot to me, personally.
And I'm sure an argument to that would be: "What do you need that for? Cool people don't need it. Just be independent. Your own person. Have more fun, etc."  Well yeah. For a person in their twenties/thirties, it's great. I believe people totally need room to become their own person! To learn, and to mature on their own level. I always had a problem with people who went straight from school into marriage (not that it was really my business, but still): they seemed to be reflexively 'taking the next step' and expecting marriage to complete them, which to me seemed really backward (in the literal sense – that they needed to grow up first, and maybe in the general sense of the word too). I didn't get married until my late 30s.

I've always considered myself to be feminist, and at the same time, I enjoy the sense of security and permanence I get from my marriage. I don't think one necessarily cancels out the other. Do I look at other men? Hell yeah I do  ;D.  I don't think that goes away for anybody. Do I fantasize about being single and able to sleep around? Yeah... up to a point... the point where I remember how much it can hurt to give your body up to somebody who can just walk away; where I remember how uncertain casual relationships can feel, et cetera. And I realize my discomfort with that uncertainty may be my problem – that people made of stronger stuff wouldn't be bothered by it. But I look around, and I don't see a lot of those people. Not in my age group at least – they've all gotten married.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 05:36:47 pm by LauraGigs »

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2008, 03:04:48 pm »
I've always considered myself to be feminist, and at the same time, I've enjoyed the sense of security and permanence I get from my marriage. I don't think one necessarily has to cancel out the other. Do I look at other men? Hell yeah I do  Grin.  I don't think that goes away for anybody. Do I fantasize about being single and able to sleep around? Yeah... up to a point... the point where I remember how much it can hurt to give your body up to somebody who can just walk away; where I remember how uncertain casual relationships can feel, etc. etc. And I realize that my discomfort with the uncertainty may be my problem – that people made of stronger stuff wouldn't be bothered by this. But I look around, and I don't see a lot of those people. Not in my age group at least – they've all gotten married.

I"m glad your marriage is doing fine, Laura, but marriage doesn't guarantee security or permanence.  We all know married couples who split up, I personally have known men who stole their joint savings and then split on his wife, leaving her with nothing but the bills.  I've known men who were having trouble with their marriages go home to find the house stripped of everything, including the appliances and divorce papers waiting.  I've known men who found their wives e-mails to lovers who "couldn't wait" for him to die of his health problems.  We all know people who were married decades who still got divorced.  People who thought their marriages were stable only to discover their spouses had been cheating on them for years

Sadly, marriage is a crapshoot.  One that has a 50% chance of success and otherwise isn't a guarantee of anything other than one's legal rights.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2008, 03:09:21 pm »
Well, this sure is a lively little thread! Good work, Amanda.  :D

So what's left, you ask? One is a sense of security and stability in your life. That's meant a lot to me, personally.
And I'm sure an argument to that would be: "What do you need that for? Cool people don't need it. Just be independent. Your own person. Have more fun, be yourself."  Well yeah. For a person in their twenties/thirties, it's great.

For yet another perspective, here's a Salon story by a woman coming to terms with the realization that she probably won't ever be married.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2008/12/09/kit_naylor/

15 years without knocking boots
I didn't intend to go without sex for a decade and a half. But celibacy isn't something you necessarily plan.

By Kit Naylor

Dec. 09, 2008
|

I haven't had sex in 15 years.

I thought I was just taking a break, temporarily climbing off the middle-aged dating roller coaster of hope and despair. I didn't intend to be celibate for the rest of my life. I just wanted to get some therapy, wanted to understand why I kept choosing men who were smart and funny but critical, sarcastic and merciless like my father. I figured I'd give it a go again later, when I felt stronger, more confident. In a couple of years, say. But here I am -- 55 years old, a spinster long past my sell-by date, no kids -- and I haven't had sex in a decade and a half.

It's my own fault, I know. I'm picky. Casual sex doesn't do it for me. (I've always thought I had to be in love in order to make love.) I regard men with ambivalence, with alternate longing and fear. I've grown accustomed to being alone.

"You so value your independence that in order to ensure it you fall in love with men who are not available," my therapist said. "You do 'yearning' very well."

But it's not like I don't try. Nearly 20 years ago, when I lived in the Bay Area, I enjoyed a brief out-of-town fling with a young engineer who captivated me because he could drive a forklift. He had grease under his fingernails -- a welcome escape from the socially awkward software guys in Silicon Valley. He wasn't exactly a Rhodes scholar, but he was a great smooch, and I started to make plans. I fantasized that we'd have a long-distance relationship. I'd encourage him to go back to school, get a degree. My friends thought I was nuts; my friends were right.

And yet, I was wild about him. I wrangled a business trip to Reno, Nev., where he lived, so thrilled about the illicit rendezvous that my nipples perked up as the plane taxied to the gate. I stood outside the baggage claim area, where Young Engineer had promised to pick me up, and waited. And waited. Finally I hailed a cab to the luxury hotel I'd booked, kept the appointments I'd arranged for the next day, and scurried home early, feeling scalded and ashamed. He'd changed his mind, he explained later. He didn't think it was such a good idea.

"And you couldn't have mentioned this before I boarded the flight?" I asked him. Apparently, night school was out of the question.

So I moved back to Minnesota, where I'd gone to college, planning to surf the second wave of husbands. I'd clearly missed the first batch, but in the early '90s we were all pushing 40 and many early marriages had ended in divorce. I hoped to encounter a former college flame or two, maybe one who was older and wiser and interested in some substance. I found instead that my male peers were pursuing 25-year-olds.

"They're dating children," I wailed to my friends.

Well, maybe I could find an intellectual buddy -- not a husband but a companion, a man who made me laugh, a man who reads and with whom I had something in common. So in '93, already half in love, I fell into bed with an old pal, long divorced from his first wife. He's a financial planner -- handsome and witty, highly verbal for a numbers guy -- and I adored him. I figured we could live separately but nurture an ongoing, affectionate friendship. We'd go out to dinner occasionally, take in a movie, enjoy some skin-on-skin action and laughter in the dark.

While I dreamed of romance, he plotted his escape.

He was at least kind enough to explain what had happened, from his perspective. Sleeping with me felt incestuous to him, like boinking his sister. "I thought we could lay each other with no emotional consequences," he told me.

"There are always emotional consequences," I said.

It was too bad. I miss him, and I miss male companionship. I adore men -- they are so different from women -- and I'm intrigued by the way they think. I had a grand passion once, with one of the men I nearly married (the luckiest of my lucky escapes), and before I caught him in bed with another woman we used to spend hours making love, rolling around together like dolphins, suggesting games: "OK, you be the gladiator, and I'll be the Roman maiden."  I was never athletic; in bed was the only place I knew how to play.

I suppose I could Internet date, but the very idea exhausts me. It feels like applying for a job I'm not sure I want. And it's so unfair, so hopelessly based on superficial things that I could weep. Cruise the online personals -- just scan the 40- and 50-something entries -- and you'll see that even men built like Danny DeVito demand youth and beauty. They say they're seeking "slender" or "slim" women at least 10 years their junior. Do I really need to pay a monthly fee for this sort of rejection?

Other women's husbands are off-limits, because adultery is a betrayal of the sisterhood and, besides, all you get there is a person you already know is capable of lying to and cheating on his wife.

And as for girl-on-girl diversions, the spirit's willing, but the flesh just can't get into it. Plenty of lesbian friends have hit on me over the years, and it's flattering, but I simply cannot go there. I wish men found me as attractive as other women do. Hell, I wish men were as affectionate with me as their dogs are. Dogs love me. These days, men, not so much.

OK, so I've gained some weight with menopause, and I am no longer a beauty, but that's not really the problem; plenty of zaftig women have husbands and lovers who adore them. I know I could walk into any bar in town and leave with some guy willing to come home with me for a one-night stand -- but that feels so sordid and ugly to me. I have known what it is to enjoy sex with love, in the context of a committed relationship -- comfortable, familiar, married sex, if you will -- and anything less than that feels sad to me. I would rather sleep alone than give myself away.

I guess I could dig up my old sex toy. It's probably around somewhere, the batteries long since corroded. My friend Katie brought it as a hostess gift when she came to visit from New York years ago. It's an enormous dildo, an unfortunate shade of orange, with veins and everything. I examined it dubiously. "I'm not entirely sure I would know what to do with this thing," I told Katie.

She laughed. "Trust me. You'll figure it out."

We left it on the couch and tottered off to bed. The next morning, my landlady let in a painter to touch up some woodwork and there, hiding in plain sight, sat the monstrous orange schlong. I was so mortified I tossed it in a Nordstrom bag and hid it in the back of my linen closet. I could easily buy another one online, but I'm inclined to take a lesson from my friend Gini, who says of hers that she falls asleep with the damn thing in her hand.

So what do you do?

I'm not sure. I know that, eventually, the longing lessens. It never goes away entirely -- I still tear up at Hallmark commercials -- but it's like quitting smoking. After a while your motor shifts into idle, and you just stop thinking about it.

And I suppose it would help to leave the house. I am quite reclusive, as most writers are, and unless some drywall guy who reads Russian literature shows up on my doorstep, it is highly unlikely that I will meet an available straight single man any time soon.

I hope I find love again, I truly do. But -- unwilling to risk any further rejection -- I am too attached to my comforts, to my books and threadbare oriental rugs and the two cats. As an oft-married friend exclaimed the first time she saw my little house, "This is exactly how I would have lived if I hadn't had all those husbands."

But we all crave human contact. "So," I resigned myself, scheduling a back massage, "welcome to the wonderful world of the middle-aged, celibate single woman. You now have to pay people to touch you." It's funny how comforted I can feel simply by hands rubbing my body. I know some men are willing to offer extra for a "happy ending" -- for them, sensuality isn't achieved unless it ends in orgasm -- but for me, I'm perfectly content just letting someone rub my shoulders, my back. Having enough money to get a massage or a facial every week for the rest of my life -- that's the kind of happy ending I crave.

Of course living with a spouse or a partner doesn't necessarily guarantee great sex -- or any sex for that matter. I suspect many married couples are celibate; some have probably gone without sex as long as I have. They are partners who coexist platonically, like siblings.

At least I've been spared the trauma of divorce. And because I live alone I have time and energy to devote to friendships, which are emotionally quite sustaining. Life presents us with many different ways to love. Who's to say the sexual kind trumps everything else?

While I sometimes calculate that I have a better chance of being clobbered on the head with a piece of falling asteroid than I do of ever making love again, I also count my blessings. I'd rather want sex a couple times of month and not have it than not want it a couple times a week and have to have it because I'm afraid if I don't he'll find somebody else.

And, hey, the toilet seat is always down, and I control the TV remote. The cats don't criticize; I haven't been subjected to Monday Night Football in years. Things could be a lot worse. And I hear a $15 pocket rocket can do wonders. It's also a bit more discreet than a fluorescent orange dildo.

As for the financial planner, he eventually married a woman some 15 years his junior. I went to their wedding. She is lovely, but they divorced within a couple of years. "She has no sense of humor," he complained. "She's so earnest about her career, and she's not all that enthusiastic in the sack."

"Well, what did you expect?" I asked him when he called to tell me they were through.

"I expected somebody like you, only younger," he admitted. We haven't spoken since.

We are -- finally -- no longer friends.

-- By Kit Naylor


Copyright ©2008 Salon Media Group, Inc. Reproduction of material from any Salon pages without written permission is strictly prohibited. SALON® is registered in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office as a trademark of Salon Media Group Inc.



Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2008, 03:10:28 pm »
Quote
Sadly, marriage is a crapshoot. 

Sure — everything you say is true, Delalluvia.  I was just posting about my own experiences in particular.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2008, 03:18:18 pm »

Good article.  Sadly, this looks similar to the route I'm going to go down.  Men are disappointments, having tried hard to imagine myself bisexual failing and finding I'm extremely happy the less people are around - including lovers.

Well, this sure is a lively little thread! Good work, Amanda.  :D

For yet another perspective, here's a Salon story by a woman coming to terms with the realization that probably won't ever be married.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2008/12/09/kit_naylor/

15 years without knocking boots
I didn't intend to go without sex for a decade and a half. But celibacy isn't something you necessarily plan.

By Kit Naylor

Dec. 09, 2008
|

I haven't had sex in 15 years.

I thought I was just taking a break, temporarily climbing off the middle-aged dating roller coaster of hope and despair. I didn't intend to be celibate for the rest of my life. I just wanted to get some therapy, wanted to understand why I kept choosing men who were smart and funny but critical, sarcastic and merciless like my father. I figured I'd give it a go again later, when I felt stronger, more confident. In a couple of years, say. But here I am -- 55 years old, a spinster long past my sell-by date, no kids -- and I haven't had sex in a decade and a half.

It's my own fault, I know. I'm picky. Casual sex doesn't do it for me. (I've always thought I had to be in love in order to make love.) I regard men with ambivalence, with alternate longing and fear. I've grown accustomed to being alone.

"You so value your independence that in order to ensure it you fall in love with men who are not available," my therapist said. "You do 'yearning' very well."

But it's not like I don't try. Nearly 20 years ago, when I lived in the Bay Area, I enjoyed a brief out-of-town fling with a young engineer who captivated me because he could drive a forklift. He had grease under his fingernails -- a welcome escape from the socially awkward software guys in Silicon Valley. He wasn't exactly a Rhodes scholar, but he was a great smooch, and I started to make plans. I fantasized that we'd have a long-distance relationship. I'd encourage him to go back to school, get a degree. My friends thought I was nuts; my friends were right.

And yet, I was wild about him. I wrangled a business trip to Reno, Nev., where he lived, so thrilled about the illicit rendezvous that my nipples perked up as the plane taxied to the gate. I stood outside the baggage claim area, where Young Engineer had promised to pick me up, and waited. And waited. Finally I hailed a cab to the luxury hotel I'd booked, kept the appointments I'd arranged for the next day, and scurried home early, feeling scalded and ashamed. He'd changed his mind, he explained later. He didn't think it was such a good idea.

"And you couldn't have mentioned this before I boarded the flight?" I asked him. Apparently, night school was out of the question.

So I moved back to Minnesota, where I'd gone to college, planning to surf the second wave of husbands. I'd clearly missed the first batch, but in the early '90s we were all pushing 40 and many early marriages had ended in divorce. I hoped to encounter a former college flame or two, maybe one who was older and wiser and interested in some substance. I found instead that my male peers were pursuing 25-year-olds.

"They're dating children," I wailed to my friends.

Well, maybe I could find an intellectual buddy -- not a husband but a companion, a man who made me laugh, a man who reads and with whom I had something in common. So in '93, already half in love, I fell into bed with an old pal, long divorced from his first wife. He's a financial planner -- handsome and witty, highly verbal for a numbers guy -- and I adored him. I figured we could live separately but nurture an ongoing, affectionate friendship. We'd go out to dinner occasionally, take in a movie, enjoy some skin-on-skin action and laughter in the dark.

While I dreamed of romance, he plotted his escape.

He was at least kind enough to explain what had happened, from his perspective. Sleeping with me felt incestuous to him, like boinking his sister. "I thought we could lay each other with no emotional consequences," he told me.

"There are always emotional consequences," I said.

It was too bad. I miss him, and I miss male companionship. I adore men -- they are so different from women -- and I'm intrigued by the way they think. I had a grand passion once, with one of the men I nearly married (the luckiest of my lucky escapes), and before I caught him in bed with another woman we used to spend hours making love, rolling around together like dolphins, suggesting games: "OK, you be the gladiator, and I'll be the Roman maiden."  I was never athletic; in bed was the only place I knew how to play.

I suppose I could Internet date, but the very idea exhausts me. It feels like applying for a job I'm not sure I want. And it's so unfair, so hopelessly based on superficial things that I could weep. Cruise the online personals -- just scan the 40- and 50-something entries -- and you'll see that even men built like Danny DeVito demand youth and beauty. They say they're seeking "slender" or "slim" women at least 10 years their junior. Do I really need to pay a monthly fee for this sort of rejection?

Other women's husbands are off-limits, because adultery is a betrayal of the sisterhood and, besides, all you get there is a person you already know is capable of lying to and cheating on his wife.

And as for girl-on-girl diversions, the spirit's willing, but the flesh just can't get into it. Plenty of lesbian friends have hit on me over the years, and it's flattering, but I simply cannot go there. I wish men found me as attractive as other women do. Hell, I wish men were as affectionate with me as their dogs are. Dogs love me. These days, men, not so much.

OK, so I've gained some weight with menopause, and I am no longer a beauty, but that's not really the problem; plenty of zaftig women have husbands and lovers who adore them. I know I could walk into any bar in town and leave with some guy willing to come home with me for a one-night stand -- but that feels so sordid and ugly to me. I have known what it is to enjoy sex with love, in the context of a committed relationship -- comfortable, familiar, married sex, if you will -- and anything less than that feels sad to me. I would rather sleep alone than give myself away.

I guess I could dig up my old sex toy. It's probably around somewhere, the batteries long since corroded. My friend Katie brought it as a hostess gift when she came to visit from New York years ago. It's an enormous dildo, an unfortunate shade of orange, with veins and everything. I examined it dubiously. "I'm not entirely sure I would know what to do with this thing," I told Katie.

She laughed. "Trust me. You'll figure it out."

We left it on the couch and tottered off to bed. The next morning, my landlady let in a painter to touch up some woodwork and there, hiding in plain sight, sat the monstrous orange schlong. I was so mortified I tossed it in a Nordstrom bag and hid it in the back of my linen closet. I could easily buy another one online, but I'm inclined to take a lesson from my friend Gini, who says of hers that she falls asleep with the damn thing in her hand.

So what do you do?

I'm not sure. I know that, eventually, the longing lessens. It never goes away entirely -- I still tear up at Hallmark commercials -- but it's like quitting smoking. After a while your motor shifts into idle, and you just stop thinking about it.

And I suppose it would help to leave the house. I am quite reclusive, as most writers are, and unless some drywall guy who reads Russian literature shows up on my doorstep, it is highly unlikely that I will meet an available straight single man any time soon.

I hope I find love again, I truly do. But -- unwilling to risk any further rejection -- I am too attached to my comforts, to my books and threadbare oriental rugs and the two cats. As an oft-married friend exclaimed the first time she saw my little house, "This is exactly how I would have lived if I hadn't had all those husbands."

But we all crave human contact. "So," I resigned myself, scheduling a back massage, "welcome to the wonderful world of the middle-aged, celibate single woman. You now have to pay people to touch you." It's funny how comforted I can feel simply by hands rubbing my body. I know some men are willing to offer extra for a "happy ending" -- for them, sensuality isn't achieved unless it ends in orgasm -- but for me, I'm perfectly content just letting someone rub my shoulders, my back. Having enough money to get a massage or a facial every week for the rest of my life -- that's the kind of happy ending I crave.

Of course living with a spouse or a partner doesn't necessarily guarantee great sex -- or any sex for that matter. I suspect many married couples are celibate; some have probably gone without sex as long as I have. They are partners who coexist platonically, like siblings.

At least I've been spared the trauma of divorce. And because I live alone I have time and energy to devote to friendships, which are emotionally quite sustaining. Life presents us with many different ways to love. Who's to say the sexual kind trumps everything else?

While I sometimes calculate that I have a better chance of being clobbered on the head with a piece of falling asteroid than I do of ever making love again, I also count my blessings. I'd rather want sex a couple times of month and not have it than not want it a couple times a week and have to have it because I'm afraid if I don't he'll find somebody else.

And, hey, the toilet seat is always down, and I control the TV remote. The cats don't criticize; I haven't been subjected to Monday Night Football in years. Things could be a lot worse. And I hear a $15 pocket rocket can do wonders. It's also a bit more discreet than a fluorescent orange dildo.

As for the financial planner, he eventually married a woman some 15 years his junior. I went to their wedding. She is lovely, but they divorced within a couple of years. "She has no sense of humor," he complained. "She's so earnest about her career, and she's not all that enthusiastic in the sack."

"Well, what did you expect?" I asked him when he called to tell me they were through.

"I expected somebody like you, only younger," he admitted. We haven't spoken since.

We are -- finally -- no longer friends.

-- By Kit Naylor


Copyright ©2008 Salon Media Group, Inc. Reproduction of material from any Salon pages without written permission is strictly prohibited. SALON® is registered in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office as a trademark of Salon Media Group Inc.




Offline opinionista

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2008, 03:22:48 pm »
Well, kinda.  In Hispanic cultures, the name women keep is their fathers'.  Women don't have their 'own' names in Western culture.  It's always the name of some man.

To make a complete break, women would have to give themselves their own name.

You got a point there. However, I feel like my father's last name is mine too. He gave it to me, but now it belongs to me. He cannot take it away. It is part of me. I don't know if you get my meaning.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2008, 03:28:58 pm »
You got a point there. However, I feel like my father's last name is mine too. He gave it to me, but now it belongs to me. He cannot take it away. It is part of me. I don't know if you get my meaning.

I do, sort of.  But he could if he wanted to.  Or used to he could.  That's the difference between legitimate children and illegitimate children.  Hypothetically, if a father could prove their children were illegitimate, he could insist the children's names be changed.  Not sure about the U.S.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2008, 03:34:15 pm »
Well, this sure is a lively little thread! Good work, Amanda.  :D

Thanks K!  I figured this kind of thing is always a hot topic.  I really think it's fascinated and can be debated endlessly and viewed from so many perspectives.

I meant to comment on the long article you posted a while back, "The bride was 7: In the heart of Ethiopia, child marriage takes a brutal toll".  But, honestly it's so depressing that it's hard to even read it let alone think of things to say.  It's sort of a "speechless" moment.
 :'(


And, Laura, I'm really glad you're including your more positive and optimistic perspective here.  I think it's important to listen to very different perspectives in the course of this conversation.

I do agree with you that in some cases modern marriage has evolved for women.  I think a lot of feminist women (and men) have worked hard to improve marriage.  And, that kind of effort shouldn't be overlooked.  So many people are very conscious of all the dilemmas within the traditional concept of marriage... that alone helps things to progress I think.

But, there are so many caveats to the idea of an improved state of marriage when thinking about contemporary women and different groups (Muslim women, tribal women, women in conservative Christian communities, conservative Mormon communities, etc., etc.) and individual cases of things like domestic violence and things like social pressure to marry... that it's hard for me to really say that marriage in general has evolved.









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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2008, 03:37:35 pm »
You got a point there. However, I feel like my father's last name is mine too. He gave it to me, but now it belongs to me. He cannot take it away. It is part of me. I don't know if you get my meaning.

I understand what you mean here opinionista.  I think of my last name (my father's name) as a part of my identity because I've always had it all my life.  It would be hard to imagine all of a sudden calling myself something else.

The duration of the association with the name seems important.  And, also practical things like my degrees are in my current name, etc.  I wouldn't be willing to change it really.  Not that it matters (since there's no chance of me marrying a man)... but hypothetically speaking.




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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2008, 03:44:25 pm »
I meant to comment on the long article you posted a while back, "The bride was 7: In the heart of Ethiopia, child marriage takes a brutal toll".  But, honestly it's so depressing that it's hard to even read it let alone think of things to say.  It's sort of a "speechless" moment.

In a way, I hate reading things like that article because it seems so tip of the iceberg. I start thinking about how many millions and millions and millions of women's and children's lives have been damaged throughout human history, around the world, by these kinds of oppressive, cruel customs.

OK now, as we were saying in another thread, have a nice day!  :-\



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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2008, 03:51:03 pm »
Interesting !

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2008, 03:51:40 pm »
In a way, I hate reading things like that article because it seems so tip of the iceberg. I start thinking about how many millions and millions and millions of women's and children's lives have been damaged throughout human history, around the world, by these kinds of oppressive, cruel customs.

OK now, as we were saying in another thread, have a nice day!  :-\

And, as they say, the sky is still above us and the earth is still below and life goes on.  It really puts you in your place to see how little the universe cares about human suffering.  :P

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2008, 03:53:46 pm »
Quote
I meant to comment on the long article you posted a while back, "The bride was 7: In the heart of Ethiopia, child marriage takes a brutal toll".  But, honestly it's so depressing that it's hard to even read it let alone think of things to say.  It's sort of a "speechless" moment.
Quote
In a way, I hate reading things like that article because it seems so tip of the iceberg. I start thinking about how many millions and millions and millions of women's and children's lives have been damaged throughout human history, around the world, by these kinds of oppressive, cruel customs.

Yeah, if this thread is about marriage (of the kind any of us are likely to consider) I don't even know if those stories are even pertinent. Those articles are about slavery; "marriage" is a misnomer. To borrow a phrase: it's like hitting someone over the head with a frying pan and calling it cooking.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2008, 04:02:17 pm »
To borrow a phrase: it's like hitting someone over the head with a frying pan and calling it cooking.

Not to make light of all of this... but this really is a great phrase. :)

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2008, 04:15:10 pm »
Yeah, if this thread is about marriage (of the kind any of us are likely to consider) I don't even know if those stories are even pertinent. Those articles are about slavery; "marriage" is a misnomer. To borrow a phrase: it's like hitting someone over the head with a frying pan and calling it cooking.

Are we talking about marriage as a "love/equal partner match" or marriage the institution?  If we're talking about Western style love match marriages, then yes, these articles are beside the point.  But if we're talking about the reasons behind marriages and the institution itself, then these articles are pertinent. 

Obviously in societies where there is no niche for single women to live on their own as individuals, the only way women will find status in their cultures is through marriage, no matter at what age, and thus their marriages - however we see them - are successful and do provide what they're meant to.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2008, 04:38:58 pm »
Yeah, if this thread is about marriage (of the kind any of us are likely to consider) I don't even know if those stories are even pertinent. Those articles are about slavery; "marriage" is a misnomer. To borrow a phrase: it's like hitting someone over the head with a frying pan and calling it cooking.

I love it!!
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2008, 05:45:44 pm »
Are we talking about marriage as a "love/equal partner match" or marriage the institution?  If we're talking about Western style love match marriages, then yes, these articles are beside the point.  But if we're talking about the reasons behind marriages and the institution itself, then these articles are pertinent. 

Obviously in societies where there is no niche for single women to live on their own as individuals, the only way women will find status in their cultures is through marriage, no matter at what age, and thus their marriages - however we see them - are successful and do provide what they're meant to.

My feeling is that this thread should be about both topics.  Marriage as an institution (internationally) and what the institution means in different contexts.  And, I think the thread can drift into discussions about love, compatibility, personal experiences, etc.

I would imagine that how people feel about the history of marriage or the state of marriage in other parts of the world or in other cultures might impact how they feel about marriage on a personal level too.  So, these types of discussions about marriage can blend together.

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Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2008, 06:01:18 pm »
I understand what you mean here opinionista.  I think of my last name (my father's name) as a part of my identity because I've always had it all my life.  It would be hard to imagine all of a sudden calling myself something else.

The duration of the association with the name seems important.  And, also practical things like my degrees are in my current name, etc.  I wouldn't be willing to change it really.  Not that it matters (since there's no chance of me marrying a man)... but hypothetically speaking.


Well, you could change your name, even if you married a woman. I read that Portia de Rossi is changing her last name to De Generes.

I've been married 30 years. I kept my name when I got married and our two children have my last name. All the things people said would come to pass: confusion, errors, loss of identity, etc. etc. (you should have heard some of the crazy things people said to try to talk my husband and I out of this decision) never happened.

I like being married. I truly believe that if I were me in every way that I am now, except for being a lesbian, I would still want to be married to the woman I love (if that makes sense). Marriage has given my life stability and focus and I think it is an important part of who I am.

L
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2008, 06:07:11 pm »
our two children have my last name.

If I may ask, how did you decide to do it that way, Leslie?


Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2008, 06:31:49 pm »
If I may ask, how did you decide to do it that way, Leslie?



My ancestors came to this country in 1664 and with my father, the name would have ended (for this particular branch of the family) since I don't have any brothers. My husband's family has lots of boys so there were/are plenty of people with his last name.

Thus we decided (although it did take quite a bit of discussion) for the children to have my name. My son is named after my father, grandfather, and great-grandfather. My daughter also has a family name. If she had been a boy, she would have been Samuel Benjamin, instead, she is named after Samuel's wife, Hannah Catherine.

In doing research on names, both when I got married and kept my name, and then when we were making the decision about the children, I discovered that there is a lot of misinformation on the subject. There are very few laws governing names. Most things are tradition. There is no law that a woman has to take her husband's name when she gets married. There is no law about what name you put on a birth certificate. A person has to go to court to legally change his/her name. The only exception is at the time of marriage--and that exception only exists for the woman. If a man wanted to take his wife's name, he'd have to go to court to have it legally changed.

Identifiers, such as Sr., Jr., and III are not part of a person's legal name. They are only used to identify the person while the person with the same name is living. If dad is John Smith, Sr., and his son is John Smith, Jr., when dad dies, the son can drop the Jr. and just be John Smith. My uncle did this and so did Barack Obama (even though Brokeplex insisted on calling him Barack Hussein Obama II all through the campaign. To my knowledge, Obama has never used a numeral with his name).

My father is a III (his father and grandfather were alive for much of his life). He never dropped it, by choice. When my son was born, we didn't add a IV to his name for a few reasons: 1) we had skipped a generation, so it seemed sort of pointless; 2) I thought IV looked a little bit ostentatious; and 3) since the only other person still alive with the same name was my father, who was still using his III, Lance didn't need anything as an identifier.

Probably the most confusing thing about Lance's name (and my father, grandfather and great-grandfather) is that they don't have a middle name! Just a first and last name, with unusual capitalization and spelling of his first name. Occasionally, when people have insisted on a middle initial (on a form, for example) he'll just put NMI for "no middle initial."

That's probably more than you ever wanted to know about names, isn't it? LOL

L
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2008, 06:40:24 pm »
Thanks for the info, Leslie! And good choice on your daughter's middle name.  ;)

I had a friend with no middle name, and she was constantly referred to as "none." As in, Jane None Smith.




Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2008, 07:09:06 pm »
Quote
Probably the most confusing thing about Lance's name (and my father, grandfather and great-grandfather) is that they don't have a middle name! Just a first and last name, with unusual capitalization and spelling of his first name. Occasionally, when people have insisted on a middle initial (on a form, for example) he'll just put NMI for "no middle initial."


I had a friend with no middle name, and she was constantly referred to as "none." As in, Jane None Smith.


I have no middle name either and I was not happy about that.  Everyone else had 3 initials.  Whenever someone is offering free monogramming, they rarely have their programs set for two initials, so I had to make up one initial.  >:(

So I complained to my mother and she suggested I give myself one.  During the conversation I realized I had never known my mother's middle name and so I asked.  She just looked at me and said "I don't have one either."

So, I have kept my two names and not added anything else.  Guess not having an additional name can be just as traditional as having one.  ;D

As for forms, I just put a dash or leave the field blank when a form or program asks for a middle initial.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2008, 12:47:09 am »
I would have entered a civil union rather than a marriage, if it had been an option. I avoided marriage for seven years of a monogamous relationship because I didn't like the history that marriage implied, especially the transfer of property from father to husband. I finally gave up when I decided I wanted my college friends to visit me, and found that they wouldn't travel so far out of the way without a good reason. (Also, one of my friends got married in a very cool ceremony that was all about joining two different families and cultural traditions to one another, and I decided that I was willing to join an institution that had room for that kind of marriage.) A year later, my opinion of marriage was changed quite a bit by discussions with a lesbian acquaintance who really, really wanted to be able to marry the woman she loved. ("I would be happy to promise to obey her," she said.) If "marriage" has room for the relationships of my friends, then perhaps it can change beyond its history.

(I may not be legally married, actually. The marriage certificate never arrived. But I live in a Common Law state, and the wedding was over ten years ago, so I guess it doesn't matter that much whether we've got a piece of paper or not.)

I kept my name, because I would have lost credit for ten years of work if I had changed it, and because I associated name-changing with the idea of a woman as property. My son has my husband's last name because 36 years of feminism was exhausting, and I simply gave up fighting expectations at last. (Also, my last name is difficult to spell, and my husband's last name is easy. My son has been saved from a lifetime of spelling his last name over the telephone. His first name, however, which I thought was easy... well, it's already misspelled on a soccer trophy.)
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2008, 01:09:46 am »
Thanks for sharing all of these experiences and thoughts Friends!  It's really fascinating to read all of your perspectives.  And, nakymaton!  It's so great to see you Bud!
:)


All this talk about the name-change issue is making me think of Lucy Stone (1818-1893).  She's an alum of Mount Holyoke College (where I went for undergrad) and is someone we heard about a lot on campus.  When she attended, Mount Holyoke was still called Mount Holyoke Female Seminary.  Later she also studied at Oberlin.  She was a major suffragist and abolishionist and was one of the first woman in the U.S. to keep her name after marriage.


http://womenshistory.about.com/od/stonelucy/p/lucy_stone.htm
Quote
Lucy Stone is known to women's history not only as one of the most important workers for suffrage and other women's rights in the 19th century and as a prominent abolitionist, but also as the first woman to keep her own name after marriage.

Here's a link to a detailed biography about her:
http://womenshistory.about.com/od/stonelucy/a/lucy_stone.htm

And, then there's this interesting tidbit about the occasion of her marriage to Henry Blackwell.

http://womenshistory.about.com/library/etext/bl_marriage_stone_blackwell.htm
Quote
Marriage Protest - 1855
 
When Lucy Stone and Henry Blackwell were married, they protested against laws of the time in which women lost their legal existence upon marriage (coverture), and stated that they would not voluntarily comply with such laws.

The following was signed by Lucy Stone and Henry Blackwell prior to their May 1, 1855 marriage.  The Rev. Thomas Wentworth Higginson, who performed the marriage, not only read the statement at the ceremony, but also distributed it to other ministers as a model that he urged other couples to follow.

 
----

While acknowledging our mutual affection by publicly assuming the relationship of husband and wife, yet in justice to ourselves and a great principle, we deem it a duty to declare that this act on our part implies no sanction of, nor promise of voluntary obedience to such of the present laws of marriage, as refuse to recognize the wife as an independent, rational being, while they confer upon the husband an injurious and unnatural superiority, investing him with legal powers which no honorable man would exercise, and which no man should possess. We protest especially against the laws which give to the husband:

1. The custody of the wife's person.

2. The exclusive control and guardianship of their children.

3. The sole ownership of her personal, and use of her real estate, unless previously settled upon her, or placed in the hands of trustees, as in the case of minors, lunatics, and idiots.

4. The absolute right to the product of her industry.

5. Also against laws which give to the widower so much larger and more permanent interest in the property of his deceased wife, than they give to the widow in that of the deceased husband.

6. Finally, against the whole system by which "the legal existence of the wife is suspended during marriage," so that in most States, she neither has a legal part in the choice of her residence, nor can she make a will, nor sue or be sued in her own name, nor inherit property.

We believe that personal independence and equal human rights can never be forfeited, except for crime; that marriage should be an equal and permanent partnership, and so recognized by law; that until it is so recognized, married partners should provide against the radical injustice of present laws, by every means in their power...


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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2008, 01:42:55 am »
Mel! How great to see you!  :D

The name thing does get exhausting. If you want to be free of patriarchal influence, you have to color way outside the lines. I know a woman who tried to get around it by adopting both her parents' last names as her name, connected by a backslash, not a hyphen. As in, Jane Smith/Doe. But of course, whichever was her mother's name presumably would still have the taint of patriarchy.

The only way out is to go the Malcolm X route, I guess. The problem there is that the X has a tone of antagonism and rejection, understandably of course. And most women who are concerned about their last name don't want to out and out reject their fathers and husbands. They just want to assert their own identities.




Offline opinionista

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2008, 07:03:08 am »
Thanks for the info, Leslie! And good choice on your daughter's middle name.  ;)

I had a friend with no middle name, and she was constantly referred to as "none." As in, Jane None Smith.

In my family us girls don't have a middle name. Only my brother does and he doesn't like it and always goes by his first name. He doesn't even add the initial. Very few people know he actually has a middle name. So it turned out to be pointless for my parents to give him one.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2008, 12:47:39 pm »

The name thing does get exhausting. If you want to be free of patriarchal influence, you have to color way outside the lines. I know a woman who tried to get around it by adopting both her parents' last names as her name, connected by a backslash, not a hyphen. As in, Jane Smith/Doe. But of course, whichever was her mother's name presumably would still have the taint of patriarchy.

The only way out is to go the Malcolm X route, I guess. The problem there is that the X has a tone of antagonism and rejection, understandably of course. And most women who are concerned about their last name don't want to out and out reject their fathers and husbands. They just want to assert their own identities.

Naw, I never get tired of being a feminist.  How could I?  That's who I am.

What's sad is it's so ingrained in many cultures for the women to suborn their identities to their husbands that some of their menfolk don't consider it that.  Instead they consider it a sign of "joining" or being "one" and are hurt if their wives won't do it.

But on the other hand, some of the men certainly don't consider it a sign of "joining" or being "one" if asked to give up their names.  They consider it for exactly what it is - a submissive act - and they don't like it.

And some actually get angry and/or what's worse, think it's a joke if it's even suggested that they do what they fully expect their wives to do.

One woman had the best response when asked why she didn't take her husband's name.

"Because he won't take mine."

 

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2008, 12:57:31 pm »
I adopted my mother's middle name as my name (it's also my middle name). I like middle names. I think of them as an opportunity to express your hidden but true self, to pay your respects to ancestors, and to carry on matrilineal traditions. My daughter's middle name is Giuliana. It's Italian for gardener. And sure enuff, she is a gardener. These women in Italy knew about herbs and natural healing plants and cultivated plants as food and medicine.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2008, 02:00:41 pm »
Naw, I never get tired of being a feminist.  How could I?  That's who I am.

Oh Del, I certainly wasn't suggesting that.

I was simply saying ... well, just what I said. If you want your name to be completely free of the taint of patriarchy, you pretty much have to start from scratch and make something up. Or maybe go Cher's route.  ;D


If marriage is about equals forming a joint partnership, then both spouses hyphenating both their names is most appropriate. For example, the (male) minister who performed my mother's funeral has a hyphenated name for that reason. But outside of Unitarian pastors (and other especially feminist/progressive male groups), there aren't that many men who want to do that.

So, failing that, women can just keep their own names. Which is easier anyway, especially if they have a professional identity associated with their name. I wouldn't have wanted to change my name, not even to a hyphenated one, and frankly not even if my husband had done the same.

When I hear of a woman with a hyphenated name, and her husband DOESN'T have one, it strikes me as pretty much the same as changing her name altogether -- a unilateral concession.

 

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2008, 02:15:14 pm »
Oh Del, I certainly wasn't suggesting that.

I was simply saying ... well, just what I said. If you want your name to be completely free of the taint of patriarchy, you pretty much have to start from scratch and make something up. Or maybe go Cher's route.  ;D


If marriage is about equals forming a joint partnership, then both spouses hyphenating both their names is most appropriate. For example, the (male) minister who performed my mother's funeral has a hyphenated name for that reason. But outside of Unitarian pastors (and other especially feminist/progressive male groups), there aren't that many men who want to do that.

So, failing that, women can just keep their own names. Which is easier anyway, especially if they have a professional identity associated with their name. I wouldn't have wanted to change my name, not even to a hyphenated one, and frankly not even if my husband had done the same.

When I hear of a woman with a hyphenated name, and her husband DOESN'T have one, it strikes me as pretty much the same as changing her name altogether -- a unilateral concession.

 

I understand that when forming a new legal unit, it needs a name under which to do business.   But if you hyphenate names, who gets top billing?  What happens the next generation when two people with already hyphenated names get married and now they have four hyphenated names, and sound more like an ad agency or a law firm?  I don't have any solutions for these problems, but I think they need to be addressed.

Offline opinionista

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2008, 02:27:49 pm »
IMO there's no need to hyphenate names. I don't understand why it seems problematic to some of you to use two names, like we do. In Spain and other countries families go by two names. Let take for example Speedy Gonzalez and Slowpoke Rodriguez. If they were gay living in Spain they¡ll be  Familia Gonzalez Rodriguez or Rodriguez Gonzalez. No hyphenate or dash needed.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2008, 02:33:39 pm »
IMO there's no need to hyphenate names. I don't understand why it seems problematic to some of you to use two names, like we do. In Spain and other countries families go by two names. Let take for example Speedy Gonzalez and Slowpoke Rodriguez. If they were gay living in Spain they¡ll be  Familia Gonzalez Rodriguez or Rodriguez Gonzalez. No hyphenate or dash needed.

I'm glad you brought this up, it sounds like an interesting way of doing thiings.  The question I would have here is Rodriguez and Gonzalez each have two last names themselves.  Which last name do they pick as their contribution to the new family unit?  The mother's?  The father's? Or do they get to pick whichever one they like best?   

Offline opinionista

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2008, 02:49:20 pm »
I'm glad you brought this up, it sounds like an interesting way of doing thiings.  The question I would have here is Rodriguez and Gonzalez each have two last names themselves.  Which last name do they pick as their contribution to the new family unit?  The mother's?  The father's? Or do they get to pick whichever one they like best?   

The father's is the one used. When you have a kid, he/she gets to have the dad's first surname and the moms first surname.  First the father's then the mothers. (In a gay relationship I guess they need to decide whose last names goes first).There are people whose father has a very common last name while their mother's is rare, so they'd rather go by their moms. And what they do is they use an initial for their first last name as it were a middle name, and write the second last name. Supposing Speedy Gonzalez full name is Speedy Gonzalez Riojano and he likes Riojano better because is more rare, so he goes by Speedy G. Riojano. I have many friends who do that. I could too. My dad's last name is very very very common while my mom's is very rare, but I use both.
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Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2008, 02:53:08 pm »
This is an interesting discussion.

I got a letter today addressed to 'the family *husband's last name* *my last name* That's the correct way of doing it over here too. For instance, when I'll be posting my Christmas cards I always address them with 'family' and then both sirnames. It would be considered impolite if you only mentioned the man's last name.  

Women don't take their husband's names over here either. You could do so if you wanted to. It is allowed legally to use your husband's name. But I don't know of any married woman of my generation who did that.
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Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2008, 02:54:56 pm »
The father's is the one used. When you have a kid, he/she gets to have the dad's first last name and the moms first last name.  First the father's then the mothers. (In a gay relationship I guess they need to decide whose last names goes first).There are people whose father has a very common last name while their mother's is rare, so they'd rather go by their moms. And what they do is they use an initial for their first last name as it were a middle name, and write the second last name. Supposing Speedy Gonzalez full name is Speedy Gonzalez Riojano and he likes Riojano better because is more rare, so he goes by Speedy G. Riojano. I have many friends who do that. I could too. My dad's last name is very very very common while my mom's is very rare, but I use both.

Thank you for the clarification!  I was wondering how that worked ever since you mentioned it.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2008, 02:58:01 pm »
I guess the one fundamental aspect of the unfairness here, as del and others have suggested, is that the pressure to deal with the name issue falls on the woman and usually only on the woman.

The fact that men are so unwilling to change their names really speaks to something pretty deeply and ideologically ingrained in many western cultures (and certainly the U.S. predominantly).

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Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2008, 03:01:46 pm »
I was wondering if the practise of changing your name after marriage has changed at all in light of the divorce rate that is much higher than it used to be. I mean, it isn't very practical when you think of it.
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Offline opinionista

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2008, 03:13:45 pm »
I was wondering if the practise of changing your name after marriage has changed at all in light of the divorce rate that is much higher than it used to be. I mean, it isn't very practical when you think of it.

I believe Jake Gyllenhaal's mom kept her first husband's last name after divorcing him. After she married Stephen Gyllenhaal she went by Naomi Foner Gyllenhaal. I don't recall if she used a dash between the surnames, though.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2008, 03:52:00 pm »
The thing I hate the most is when even the wife's first name gets left out. As in, "Mr. and Mrs. John Doe" or even just "Mrs. John Doe." Oh, that's horrible.

My stepmom established her career during her first marriage, in the '60s. So when she got divorced, she kept that married name. Then when she married my dad, she kept the name of her first husband. Kind of unusual, but practical. She's all about practicality (a phrase I mentioned yesterday I dislike, but in this case it really applies).




Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2008, 04:22:47 pm »
The thing I hate the most is when even the wife's first name gets left out. As in, "Mr. and Mrs. John Doe" or even just "Mrs. John Doe." Oh, that's horrible.


I completely agree with this sentiment Bud. 

One thing I find fascinating is a generational difference in attitude about this particular topic.  I find that sometimes much, much older women (of my grandmother's era 80 and 90 year olds, etc.) they seem to really like the old formality of using the "Mrs. John Doe" format.  I think there is a very different attitude about this in terms of a kind of etiquette.  I notice this here at work with some of our much older trustees too.  They cling to the husband's name issue in a way that may seem strange to younger women.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2008, 04:40:36 pm »
One thing I find fascinating is a generational difference in attitude about this particular topic.  I find that sometimes much, much older women (of my grandmother's era 80 and 90 year olds, etc.) they seem to really like the old formality of using the "Mrs. John Doe" format.  I think there is a very different attitude about this in terms of a kind of etiquette.  I notice this here at work with some of our much older trustees too.  They cling to the husband's name issue in a way that may seem strange to younger women.

Sadly, back in the era when they got married, having a husband was a woman's only route to recognition and status. If her husband was prominent and successful, so much the better, but even if not, at least it showed they were married and not (gasp!) spinsters. So to lose that, and be plain old Jane Doe, is stripping them of this marker.  Maybe they feel approximately the way Dr. Doe might feel nowadays if you referred to her as Miss Doe.

My mom, by the way, was referred to in some junk mail as "Mrs. [my dad's name]" as long as she lived, even though she'd been divorced for about 30 years. She may have called herself that back in the '60s, but not for a long, long time.




Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2008, 04:45:41 pm »
Sadly, back in the era when they got married, having a husband was a woman's only route to recognition and status. If her husband was prominent and successful, so much the better, but even if not, at least it showed they were married and not (gasp!) spinsters. So to lose that, and be plain old Jane Doe, is stripping them of this marker.  Maybe they feel approximately the way Dr. Doe might feel nowadays if you referred to her as Miss Doe.

My mom, by the way, was referred to in some junk mail as "Mrs. [my dad's name]" as long as she lived, even though she'd been divorced for about 30 years. She may have called herself that back in the '60s, but not for a long, long time.





I think you are right.  Since, in the past men were seen as holding the power, assuming his name - Mrs. John Doe - was a way of assuming some of that power for herself.  Not a bad choice at the time.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2008, 05:00:29 pm »
I guess the one fundamental aspect of the unfairness here, as del and others have suggested, is that the pressure to deal with the name issue falls on the woman and usually only on the woman.

The fact that men are so unwilling to change their names really speaks to something pretty deeply and ideologically ingrained in many western cultures (and certainly the U.S. predominantly).



Exactly.  The man has little to no concern about it.  He remains who he is his entire life unless forced to change by his wife.

I have known women who married into families where the name of the husband was so incredibly important that the wife would be insulting an entire family should she not take his name and should she not name her first born son according to their family tradition.

I have never heard of any men in the U.S. culture who find themselves in similar situations.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2008, 05:03:34 pm »
I think you are right.  Since, in the past men were seen as holding the power, assuming his name - Mrs. John Doe - was a way of assuming some of that power for herself.  Not a bad choice at the time.

It was extremely common.  I remember reading in a book about military wives in the 60's who also assumed the status of their husband's military rank.  e.g. the wife of a major got more respect than the wife of a captain.

Offline underdown

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2008, 02:37:13 am »

I once lived in a country town where, if a local girl, Mary Smith, married a new arrival, John Brown, women would introduce him as Mary Smith's husband, John.
Men would introduce him as John Brown, who married Frank Smith's daughter, Mary.
Oh, and 'new arrival' meant someone who had been there only a few years.
 

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2008, 11:33:45 pm »
Maybe they feel approximately the way Dr. Doe might feel nowadays if you referred to her as Miss Doe.

Heh. I actually have that happen all the time - I get referred to as "Mrs. Mylastname" (which is particularly funny, because I kept my last name, so how does the "Mrs." title fit with that, anyway?). The correct title would be "Dr.", and I should probably be more pompous about it than I am, just to remind the kids that I'm as legitimate as my male colleagues. (I should ask my male colleagues if they get referred to as "Mr.", or whether everyone automatically calls them "Dr.", or whether they just get called by their last names, without any title of respect.)
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women and Marriage
« Reply #57 on: December 23, 2008, 12:46:44 am »
Heh. I actually have that happen all the time - I get referred to as "Mrs. Mylastname" (which is particularly funny, because I kept my last name, so how does the "Mrs." title fit with that, anyway?). The correct title would be "Dr.", and I should probably be more pompous about it than I am, just to remind the kids that I'm as legitimate as my male colleagues. (I should ask my male colleagues if they get referred to as "Mr.", or whether everyone automatically calls them "Dr.", or whether they just get called by their last names, without any title of respect.)

Back when the title Ms. was still relatively new there was a little Reader's Digest like blurb in a magazine.  When selecting a jury, an attorney turned to this older woman, and asked,

"Is it Miss, Mrs. or Ms?"

She replied,

"It's Dr."
 ;D