Over the years...

[Kazza]

Hi I know that this has been discuss on another thread “The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?”  , but what I’m interested in is the change (or not) of the attitudes of the character as the years pass and the world changes.

The themes arising from BBM are so timeless that I often forget the quite contemporary setting (relatively speaking).

I know that the story starts in the early 60’s with characters who had grown up during the 40s and 50s, but by the end we are in the early 80s.

Now I don’t know much about rural America during that or any other period, but wouldn’t Ennis have picked up on some of the social changes going on around him?

By the end of the story they would have lived through the whole flower power era and then the glam 70s. I mean, surely the sight of Marc Bolan, or David Bowie (my hero) in a dress with makeup, would have softened his attitude a tad? Are Ennis’ fears so deep rooted that he stands still with it whilst the rest of the world progresses around him?

Then again, they would also have witnessed the punk era and I can’t imagine Ennis with a Mohican and a safety pin through his nose!

[Jeff Wrangler]

Good idea for a thread!

For myself, I've wondered whether the growing women's movement in the period had anything to do with Alma coming to feel that she deserved a better life than she was having and finally getting up the gumption to dump Ennis.

On the other hand, despite all the changes that went on in the world during those years, we don't really know how aware Ennis is of them (I suspect Jack would have been more aware). Yes, he had television, even in that poky little trailer he's living in at the end of the film. But even today, in the metropolitan Northeastern U.S., I know people--coworkers--who are tremendously unaware of what is going on in the larger world around them--they never watch television news (because it's "too depressing"), they never read newspapers, and so forth.

Personally, I tend to think the sight of David Bowie in a dress and makeup would have horrified Ennis, made him even more rigid than he was to begin with--if he felt that David Bowie in a dress and makeup equated to being gay.

[Kazza]

Gosh yes! Ennis would totally want to disassociate himself from anything like that. Can just imagine his face!

I guess that I wondered if these social changes could possibly, even slightly, have opened Ennis mind to the idea that there are as many different life choices for as many people as there are to choose them.

I think that at heart I’m hoping that if Jack had survived (sniff – wipes eye) Ennis may eventually come round to the idea that the world was finding the idea of two men being together less shocking.

However, maybe he would never have gotten over being shocked by the idea, irrespective of what the world thought.

Mmmm… why do I feel like I’m discussing real people? Where is Ennis now I ask, still living in a trailer?

[serious crayons]

Personally, I tend to think the sight of David Bowie in a dress and makeup would have horrified Ennis, made him even more rigid than he was to begin with--if he felt that David Bowie in a dress and makeup equated to being gay.

I disagree with the first part, because I don't think Ennis worried that much about other people's sexuality -- too busy worrying about his own!

But as for the second part: is my memory faulty, or didn't David Bowie himself claim to be gay back in them days? I was a teenager then -- and a David Bowie fan -- so it's possible I made the assumption you're attributing to Ennis based on his outfits, or the rock press, or some kind of amalgamation of the two. But I guess I always thought he described himself that way (and then amended it, when it became less a part of his schtick).

[Jeff Wrangler]

I disagree with the first part, because I don't think Ennis worried that much about other people's sexuality -- too busy worrying about his own!

But as for the second part: is my memory faulty, or didn't David Bowie himself claim to be gay back in them days? I was a teenager then -- and a David Bowie fan -- so it's possible I made the assumption you're attributing to Ennis based on his outfits, or the rock press, or some kind of amalgamation of the two. But I guess I always thought he described himself that way (and then amended it, when it became less a part of his schtick).

No, I am not saying Ennis would have been concerned with David Bowie's sexual orientation. What I am saying is that I think that if Ennis thought David Bowie in a dress was what being gay was all about, what it meant to be gay, it would have made him--Ennis--even more self-repressed than he was to begin with.

[serious crayons]

What I am saying is that I think that if Ennis thought David Bowie in a dress was what being gay was all about, what it meant to be gay, it would have made him--Ennis--even more self-repressed than he was to begin with.

Oh, well, that could be. There's no doubt he had a warped view of what it meant to be gay. And whatever it meant to him, it did contribute to his self-repression.

Jeff, did you get my PM? For some reason I don't think it went through. In any case, I was calling your attention to my new signature line! It's partly inspired by your admiration of the sentence. It kind of gives me chills, myself. And I think it has a lot to do with why many of us are here.

[Brown Eyes]

Oh man, people, don't get me started about David Bowie (see signature).  That's the one topic that I'm more obsessed with than BBM...  Imagine this BetterMost-style analysis applied to Bowie (and his song lyrics primarily) since I was 12 (I'm now 31).  My days as a message board user all started years ago with Bowie sites.  I've noticed that there seem to be quite a few Bowie fans around here. 

Anyway, leaving Bowie out of this for a moment... This is an interesting topic.  The story would certainly be very different if this was a story took place a little further west and was about Jack and Ennis living in San Francisco or L.A. from the early '60s through the early '80s.  Why doesn't Jack suggest going to San Francisco for a change rather than Mexico, or Denver (which he brings up in the book)?  Did things like Stonewall have any impact at all in Wyoming or Texas for that matter?

[nakymaton]

Glam rock and disco and all that weren't even popular in rural Maine in the early 80's. Stuff like the music that plays on Alma Jr's car radio at the end of the movie was the rock I knew growing up; the other stuff was mocked (often in very homophobic terms, I remember). When I drove across the western US in the late 80's, the radio options seemed even more limited... country music or dead air. (Today, the choices haven't changed much, except that Wyoming Public Radio plays some pretty cool progressive bluegrass, and there's the additional option of Rush Limbaugh & company.)

Rural parts of the US missed the progressive stuff from the 70's... just got the paranoia about somebody putting LSD in pretend tatoos, and putting razor blades in apples. And then rural America hit back hard, reacting to the 70's with Reagan-era social conservatism.

The only references to gay culture that I remember growing up rural in the late 70's/early 80's were slurs against the Village People, and then fears about AIDS.

[Luvlylittlewing]

Forgive me if I'm going OT here, but I'm wondering as a black woman if racial attitudes changed for our boys at all during the 70's and 80s.  I know there is no indication whatsoever that Jack and Ennis were racist, and I don't believe that they were.  However, I once read a BBM screenplay on-line and noticed a scene that was not included in the movie.  I believe it invovled Ennis sitting in the Greyhound station while he was pushing his lemon pie around the plate, and before Cassie walked in.  In this particular screenplay Ennis was intently watching an episode of Diffrent Strokes.  I always wondered what he thought about Willis and his little bro (no, I can't remember his name

Somehow I think Ennis would have been horrified to see David Bowie in that black dress and makeup.  By the way, I loved that look, especially the black cheek contouring, lips and eyes, and thought the trend blew over way too quickly.

[David In Indy]

Forgive me if I'm going OT here, but I'm wondering as a black woman if racial attitudes changed for our boys at all during the 70's and 80s.  I know there is no indication whatsoever that Jack and Ennis were racist, and I don't believe that they were.  However, I once read a BBM screenplay on-line and noticed a scene that was not included in the movie.  I believe it invovled Ennis sitting in the Greyhound station while he was pushing his lemon pie around the plate, and before Cassie walked in.  In this particular screenplay Ennis was intently watching an episode of Diffrent Strokes.  I always wondered what he thought about Willis and his little bro (no, I can't remember his name

Somehow I think Ennis would have been horrified to see David Bowie in that black dress and makeup.  By the way, I loved that look, especially the black cheek contouring, lips and eyes, and thought the trend blew over way too quickly.

That is a really interesting question, Littlewing.

I have been sitting here for a few minutes trying to think this through before I posted, and quite frankly I didn't get very far!

It is fairly clear Ennis would have had little exposure, if any to African Americans or the culture. It is also fairly clear Ennis has problems expressing his emotions, but he had a big heart. I would like to think Ennis is fairly open minded (I am remembering the scene where Jack tells Ennis he is a Pentecostal. Ennis didn't know anything about the religion, but he didn't seem uncomfortable or judgmental towards Jack at all when Jack was explaining the religion to him).

I think Ennis would have simply been watching the show and enjoying it. I also think if Ennis did have any thoughts running through his mind, they would have been geared towards watching the show and trying to learn from it.

This is how I think of Ennis anyhow. I like to think of Ennis as a quiet man with an accepting heart and an open mind.  He just has trouble showing it sometimes!